Talk:Endless Wire (The Who album)

Zak and delay
The article says "The release date had been pushed back to October 30, 2006, due to drummer Zak Starkey's commitments to work with Oasis on their album Don't Believe the Truth and on their 2005 tour."

Given that it turns out that Zak only played on a single track from the album, is this commonly-held belief actually true? If they had held the album up so that Zak would be available, wouldn't he have performed on most of the album? The liner notes suggest that the delay was caused by Pete holding the songs back until he was really confident that they were done, and that the delay caused Zak to be unavailable, not the other way around. -Erik Harris 18:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Whether or not true, it's not important enough to be in the lead, which is supposed to be a summary of the article not a repository for random facts. However, given that the statement's veracity has been challenged without reply since October last year, and given that what you say about the liner notes is correct, I've removed it all together. --kingboyk 10:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Old Red Wine?
Are You Sure the extra CD of this Album ends with Old Red Wine (after Won't Get Fooled Again)? I am listening to it now (in Holland - so I don't know whether you have the same version), but it seems to be the reprise...

Extended Versions
The two songs with extended version are not on the standard track listing of Endless wire. It should be indicated so.

Song Breakdown
Are these song descriptions copied directly from the liner notes? If so, reprinting them here is a copyright violation. Pkeets 05:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Liner notes? HA? The only "notes" were the lyrics.76.185.106.214 18:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Comes from a press release according to the article itself. Quoting a press release at such length goes beyond "fair use" imho, so unless the press release was released to the public domain or under a compatible free licence (which would require proper attribution) it smells like a copyvio. --kingboyk 10:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Song Deletion
I don't know who wrote the song articles that linked to this album, but they were deleted last week by User:Oli Filth. Pkeets 17:57, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I wrote those articles and I'm a little annoyed they've all been deleted since I spent quite a bit of time on them (and I thought they were very informative). 82.163.136.138 18:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that was me that wrote the above - I wasn't logged in. KelvinP 18:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought someone would be annoyed, which is why I posted a link to Oli's user page. You can check in at his "discussion" page and challenge his deletion. I commented at the time and he said they didn't meet the criteria for notability as listed at WP:MUSIC. However, if you can convince him, I expect the articles can be retrieved.  "It's Not Enough" certinly meets the requirements from that list, as it charted. The album also did well in the charts, which I think would make the songs notable. Pkeets 02:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Looking again, "It's Not Enough" did mention it was a single, but only in the infobox on the right, so very easy to miss. If this fact can be added to the article text, then I don't see any reason that this article can't be reinstated.


 * Note that these articles haven't been deleted, only redirected to the album page. The original text is still available by viewing an earlier version through each article's page history.  Oli Filth 12:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Note also that all quotes, etc. included in the article must be properly referenced; see the WP:V policy. Oli Filth 12:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Since we're in agreement, I reinstated "It's Not Enough." The album rose to #7 on the charts.  It's still a bit early to see which songs will become classics, but the album content has already appeared elsewhere as a rock musical.  Townshend's work seems to achieve a certain notability just because he's Townshend, so I'd be in favor of reinstating all of them.  Do you still object Oli? Pkeets 23:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, that's not an argument for the existence of articles on songs; otherwise we could have articles for every single song by every single "notable" performer ever. The critera for individual songs are laid out at WP:MUSIC; if any of the other songs on Endless Wire meets these criteria at some point in the future, then by all means reinstate them when that occurs. Oli Filth 23:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's the criteria for song articles: "A song is probably notable if it meets one or more of the following standards: ...has been covered in sufficient independent works. ...has been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups. ...has been ranked on a national or significant music chart. ...has been recognized by journalists, biographers, and/or other respected cultural critics as being significant to a noteworthy group's repertoire. ...has won a significant award or honor."

What do you consider "sufficient independent works"? A rock musical, maybe? The covers are starting to appear, but so far they're just in performance. How do you determine the recognition of journalists? There have been a number of reviews in the last year that covered the individual songs. Pkeets 00:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think that a musical makes the individual songs notable. Take e.g. The Phantom of the Opera (1986 musical) or Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat; virtually none of the constituent songs have their own articles.


 * My point is that the songs have appeared both on an album and in a musical, at this point. Check out We Will Rock You (musical).  Almost all the songs here have independent articles. Pkeets 01:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You'll find reviews that cover the individual songs of virtually every notable album release ever. The key bit is "being significant to a noteworthy group's repertoire".  Oli Filth 07:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There's no question that The Who is noteworthy. And this being their first album of new songs in 24 years does make all the songs seem a bit significant. Pkeets 01:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TheWhoBlackWidowEyes-UK.jpg
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BetacommandBot 05:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TheWhoTea&Theater-USA.jpg
Image:TheWhoTea&Theater-USA.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 05:29, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Endlesswirecover.jpg
Image:Endlesswirecover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

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External links modified
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Why include CD/DVD listings of The Who Live at Lyon ?
The Endless Wire article's track listing is immediately followed by two listings of the tracks of The Who Live at Lyon (CD and DVD versions), a concert recorded in 2006 three months before the release of the article album. The live album appears to have no connection to Endless Wire except insofar as one live track - Mike Post Theme - appeared on the later Endless wire studio album. Surely the Lyon CD/DVD listing should be deleted and a single sentence substituted to state that Mike Post Theme was recorded live at a Lyon concert three months before the Endless Wire album's release. Aaaaaah...! A note in the the CD listing says "Included as an extra in Europe, Asia, and at Best Buy stores in the US." But my copy of the CD does not include the Lyon concert and makes no mention. So it was only included as a extra with some editions but not all? Hmmmm... all rather annoyingly unclear.