Talk:Endre Johannes Cleven

Admittedly a bit of a vanity piece, but notable
Why? He was my grandfather, and maybe a bit more like me than seems possible; another black sheep and something of a cultural polymath and maybe a bit of a ruffian, too. Details of the relationship with the Hoines family over his marriage - effectively an elopement which scandalized conservative Skudeneshavn - with Margit, is family lore, as is the stuff about him being a medic. But his name still perks ears in both Skudenes/Karmoy and in Norwegian Canadian circles, and as the bio demonstrates his was not an un-notable life. I have copies of some of his music, which I'm tempted to post so they can be cited, but the copyright/estate status of them I'm not sure of; not that they're valuable and should be in the public domain. Not sure what happened to a huge folio of extremely gory pictures of battlegrounds and field hospitals in the Phillippines, but hopefully they'll turn up and didn't get ripped off from my storage (as a lot of things did, thankfully not much in the way of family stuff) or lost as was some music and his discharge papers in a garage sale when a drunken roommate threw out the box (when I was away) because he didn't like the picture of Mozart on the cover of the book of piano sonatas that was the top article in it....grrr. Time eats all things, as does foolishness. Anyway, I asked User:Jack O'Lantern to do the draft for me, as I didn't feel right in trying to condense it myself; but as you can see by the comment-outs, which will be transferred as notations/quotations to this page in a later edit (maybe tomorrow), there's other interesting bits that could/should go in the article. Military portrait next; I think of the US Army Musical Corps uniform, I'm not sure; could be the RCV uniform, but looks older than that. Trying to dig up his was record at the nat'l military archives for another reference or an external link.

Image license issue
wanted to view it to see what the problem with the tag was, but apparently the image itself has already been deleted (48 hours after posting, kinda hasty). Hm. It's back now - why would that be?Skookum1 04:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Now PD-self, but kept here for future ref as main page will have different image in a few days....Skookum1 17:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The uniform looks like a standard CEF uniform to me - I've changed this but if you're positive it is US Army, it can be changed back.Michael Dorosh 17:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I was gonna say, the insignia look rather Canadian/British, I think we can trust your eye, though! heqs 18:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I looked close on a zoom view: it's a lyre, a musical symbol....Skookum1 19:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Source info
What's the publication date of the newspaper article? If it's pre-1923, it is very likely public domain, and therefore could be included here verbatim (or sampled liberally/at will). It would be good referencing practice to include the publication info anyway. heqs 03:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I just noticed the "date uncertain" part, sorry. Would be good to have though, for the reasons I mentioned. heqs 03:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have other copies, one a different English translation and another the original Norwegian; and I think the Norwegian one at least is dated. The version linked at present is from a geocities website run by my first cousin-once-removed (usually called second cousin, but I've gotten more specific; in Norwegian a second cousin is someone of the same generation, not simply removed by one).  Been looking for the Norwegian one, partly because it uses some "interesting" words, as my Norwegian-class teacher commented (archaic and/or dialect).  Also trying to see what's in the other family archives in Winnipeg, Montreal and St. John, where the respective cousins live (all my uncles and aunt have passed away, as has my father), and hopefully the cuz I'm on good terms with in Wpg can get at the Winnipeg Free Press and local Sons of Norway files for more information; also the Walker Theatre; as noted in one of the in-line comments I'm trying to recover some of his compositions, other than the three songs and one choral work I have kicking around here; there used to be orchestral parts for theatre music, and hopefully someone bought them at the garage sale in question and might respond to a letter to the North Shore News, at least knowing what happened to them and if they're in the hands of a document collector, as also with his US Army discharge and some Canadian immigration/settlement maps; grrr...cross your fingers for me, and I'll make a point of writing the NS News tomorrow to get things rolling (well, I have to find the photocopy of the discharge first so that can illustrate the article/letter in the News).Skookum1 05:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Timeline questions
-Cleven returned to Canada in April of 1903
 * When was he there the first time..?heqs


 * I think in the years before he enlisted in the US Army; he got around a lot in North America, from Iowa to Chicago and New York; from his travel itinerary I'm guessing he travelled from the Phillippines back to Norway via the Suez; he could have come this way, though, I'm not sure yet. I don't know if there's any family fonds that the Wpg branch might have; I have a letter in Norwegian from my grandmother to my father which I need deciphered/translated (old Norwegian handwriting, in old spelling, too), and it may have some clues.Skookum1 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

-The couple had met during Cleven's return to Norway.
 * When did he return to Norway?heqs


 * Trying to sort that out; and at present I only have the Decorah Posten as a valid source; the rest is lore/hearsay, but my impression is that he courted her before 1903; Skudenes is a small place; it's hard to believe that they didn't meet in the first few days of his return. His family was not "native" to the island, or his father wasn't anyway (I've found out lately Ingeborg's name should be Haaland, not Hollan; pron. the same way, sort of, so Hollan may simply be an old spelling; and Haaland is a Karmoy name, though not closely related to the Hoines clan; although ultimately everyone's related within seven generations, it being Norway...); the poop I got during my visit there in 1975-76 was that the Cleven family moved away, other than to North America, and there was some bad feellings in the older Hoines clan about what was effectively an elopement (which is why the marriage wasn't in Skudenes....); I met my 104-year-old great aunt and the look she gave me when she realized whose grandson I was was chilling; he stole her younger sister, y'see...so there wasn't much information on him forthcoming in Karmoy itself ;-) Might be the other branches of that side of the family in North America - his brothers' and sisters' families - might have more information, but I'm not in touch with them, though the first-cousin-once-removed in St. John appears to have done his homework on that front; all I had was the names after my Norway visit (Hi Kris!)Skookum1 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Must have been before 1901 or 1902, as there was a first daughter, Camilla, who was born in Winnipeg in those years, died in infancy before my father, the eldest surviving, was born in 1906; she lived only a year or so. I'd have to find and post a copy of the notes in the family bible, which of course isn't with me here in Thailand and is in some boxes in Mission BC at a friend's place I left for storage there.Skookum1 (talk) 02:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

-After the outbreak of World War I, Cleven, ranked "Captain", was appointed...
 * How did he attain this rank, when did he join the military, etc. Guessing it might be tied to the first time he was in Canada?heqs


 * I believe it was an appointment. His departing rank in the US Army was Sergeant.  I think he signed up for the Canadian Forces (British Expeditionary Forces, actually, in those days) at the onset of WWI and began mobilizing to create the Royal Canadian Vikings; I'll know more if I hear back from the national military archives or get more materials from the cousins....Skookum1 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see on the Officers' declaration paper that his rank was "Hon. Capt." ("Honorary Captain?" that would make sense...?) in the 197th (Vikings of Canada) Battalion, CEF "Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary Force" (Canadian Expeditionary Force)... profession: "Dominion Government Immigration Officer"... "To what unit of the Active Militia (Militia Act of 1855 is closest ref on WP so far) do you belong?: Prov. (Provisional?) Lieut. 96th Leg." (Legion?).... ...interesting. heqs 10:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Most of his remaining papers are in the National Archives in Ottawa, and a short bio there, I'll have to find it and will add it to the cites when I get a chance. They should have something on that.Skookum1 (talk) 02:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Just trying to clarify the bio, the answers might be in the Posten article - which I haven't checked yet, just putting this here in case someone gets to it before I do - hope this helps. heqs 03:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, that's good, they're good question and will get me to get the ball rolling on other sources and getting the documents recovered, etc. Might as well head down to the Scandinavian Centre in BBY (since I live near it...) this week to peruse the library; no one there seemed to know about him when I was taking classes there but you never know what's on the bookshelves or in the files....Skookum1 06:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an old exchange, all the way back to 2006 and User:heqs isn't around any more I think, but worth commenting/updating on.Skookum1 (talk) 02:45, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

issue with lede re "Canadian"; he was also American......
Like many of his time, he was a dual citizen, as were his offspring; Dad retained his until 1950 or so; my mother also was but for different reasons. The lede says "a Norwegian-born Canadian" but should say "Canadian and American" because of the dual citizenship, though of course I'll have to find a cite for that, it may be in his papers/bio in the National Archives in Canada which I'll find and link. The picture used here is also on that site, I think.Skookum1 (talk) 02:49, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

notability of offspring
There's no citation yet available, other than the family genealogy site built by my cousin Kris, but at least three of his offspring are highly notable, Alf (Alfred), Lillian (Lil) and Harald (Harry). Alf was Chief Factor of the Hudson's Bay Company for many years, Lil was Miss Canada 1930 (from a different organization than those listed on Miss Canada, we have a picture of two but no citation as yet) and Harry was head of the Rotary and YMCA in Winnipeg and in other capacities and was among the victims of Trans-Canada Airlines Flight 810's crash on Mount Slesse in 1956. There may already be materials on him in the Manitoba Archive because of his prominence in that province.....Alf may be mentioned in the HBC Archives, which are part of the Manitoba Archives now, I think. Plans within the family at the moment are to gather what materials may be out there and them and give them to that archive, and Aunt Lillian's second family in Chicago we're trying to contact to see what they might have, though she may also be listed in university or city or Democratic Party archives in Illinois (she became private secretary to the County Clerk of Cook County and was in prominent Democrat circles there, i.e. Mayor Daley's coterie). My own father Endre, the eldest, has quite the story and was a billiards champion in extremis (and hustled pool from the age of 11 to support his mother and siblings; he was so famous in that capacity that when he returned to Winnipeg for Grandma's funeral in 1964 an "Andy Cleven takes on all comers" demo/competition at the old pool hall attracted so many to see the living legend in action they had to install bleachers and lights.....the pool hall is now a mosque, don't know what happened to the pool tables, sure would like to have one though ;-)), a professional boxer, and a founder of the Society for Barbershop Quartet Singing in America, the Royal Canadian Legion, the Lions in British Columbia, other organizations, and was a perpetual community organizer and notable figure wherever we lived, including long-time president of the Western Canada Soap Box Derby Association (rotating that position, often enough, with my mother, as also as co-founders, with others, of the Canadian Loggers' Sports Organization)......no citations yet and I took an WP:AUTO overstep in the first place by creating this article about my grandfather; at the very least once citations are available for all of those, his offspring should be listed as is commonly the case on other bios in Wikipedia. Because of WP:AUTO, in future I will post those materials here, and ask others to add them if suitable. A collective family bio is maybe in the works, but not for publication anytime soon.Skookum1 (talk) 03:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * His brother-in-law Aadne Hoines is also highly notable, and has been the subject of a PBS documentary I've never seen, due to his role in the Sons of Norway and in civic and cultural affairs in Winnipeg, and Norwegian-North American social and cultural circles. And I believe also well-known in Norway, as was my grandfather because of his role as Immigration Director for Scandinavians in Canada; there may be more on both of them in Norwegian-language materials there.Skookum1 (talk) 03:14, 17 June 2013 (UTC)