Talk:England in the Middle Ages

Old talk page post
"Mediæval Britain" is a term used to suggest that there is a unity to the history of Great Britain


 * What does "unity to the history of Great Britain" mean? This seems kind of POV'ish. Don't people use the term simply as a neutral descriptor of convience marking a passage of time? "Crossbows were in common use in late Medieval Britain" --Stbalbach 20:57, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * "Ethelbert held the largely honorific title of among the kingdoms, and the re-Christianisation of England spread in the south from Canterbury.

Making this page a disambiguation page
This articles existence is unfortunate as it repeats exactly what is already in other articles, in more and better detail. However the term "Medieval Britain" is certainly valid. Would anyone be opposed to basically deleting this articles content and making it a disambiguation page pointing to the other articles which cover this period? Or is this a valid article, and if so, why? Stbalbach 15:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree, especially following the discussion on the Anglo-Saxons page. 'Britain in the Middle Ages' should point to the histories of England, Scotland and Wales (though not Ireland). I think History of Scotland is particularly good; History of England goes into far too much detail on things like 'migration', and would benefit from a trunk page on the Later Medieval Period (i.e. 1000-1500); all there is currently is a link to Anglo-Norman and Angevin. Harthacanute 20:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok just did a big cut see how it goes. Please add/adjust as you think it could be improved. I think keeping this article focused on the historiography of the term "medieval britain" along with pointers to the complete treatments to avoid duplication is the way to go. Stbalbach 22:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Changing "Mediaeval" to "medieval"
I've changed all the references to "mediaeval" and "Mediaeval" to "medieval" (except obviously where ordinary capitalisation rules apply).

"Mediaeval" was obviously used as being more British than medieval. Whilst it is true that mediaeval is relatively more common in the UK than the US, it is still far less common than medieval in both countries. Furthermore, a great many formal British institutions - The Institute for Medieval Studies, University of Leeds for example - use the simpler, more modern spelling of medieval.

In other words, medieval is:
 * Significantly more common than mediaeval in the UK (factor of 10); and
 * Fully acceptable in formal and scientific language.

(Incidentally, the use of mediæval - with the a/e ligature - really isn't acceptable in modern English.) El T 08:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be midiæval, because that's how it has been and the only reason it was changed to midiaeval was because of typing problems and then later changed to midieval because of shortening. Midiæval is just as short as midieval and we don't have typing problems.Cameron Nedland 01:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be Mediæval. That is the traditional, British spelling of the word. Just because the world has become Americanised, that's no reason to ignore the original spelling. EuroSong talk 14:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I have always (at least inadvertently) spelt "medieval", mediaeval or mediæval (when the æ was available). In many books I have read the spelling was often mediaeval and sometimes mediæval. At the very least the article should show that there are a few widely accepted spellings and considering this article is not specific to the United States it should be 'mediaeval' or (as I would prefer) mediæval. Kyle sb 11:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

John Knox, Reformation and Land
I think it wrong to talk of John Knox's Reformation in Scotland. He was an important figure, certainly; but he would have got absolutely nowhere if it had not been for the hunger for church land, extending from great noblemen to minor barons.

It is also wrong to say that Orkney and Shetland were 'returned' to Scotland in 1471 for the simple reason that they had never been part of the Kingdom of Scotland in the first place. The earlier Pictish settlers were displaced, from the eighth century onwards, by a Norse influx. In the fifteenth century the islands belonged to the Kingdom of Denmark, and were pledged to Scotland in lieu of a dowry payment. Rcpaterson 02:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Please split them up
I really don't think it's appropriate to have medieval England and England in the Middle Ages redirect here. England, Wales and Scotland had quite separate histories. They deserve their own articles.

Peter Isotalo 08:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Dates for Period
Most uses of the term "Medieval Britain" restrict its use to the post Norman Conquest period. Both the start and end dates of the period vary in different applications. Therefore I tried to add an explanation to this effect to the article but this has been deleted. The reverted article only gives one of the ways of using the term and is unsatisfaactory. Adresia (talk) 21:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I reverted because I don't believe the term is used mainly in that way, do you have a source saying that? "Medieval Britain" refers to Britain during the Medieval period, which is variously defined, but I don't think the Norman Conquest is an acceptable cutoff point.--Cúchullain t/ c 06:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

My Concise Oxford Dictionary defines "Medieval" as relating to the Middle Ages, and defines the "Middle Ages" as the period of European history from the fall of the Roman Empire in the west to the fall of Constantinople (1453) or more narrowly from c1000 to 1453. However, this is really applicable to continental Europe not Britain. If you do some research as to how the term is used in relation to British history, as I did, you will find that generally it is used as I said and related to British events, mostly in its narrower sense. Adresia (talk) 10:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have sources to back that up? I've done quite a bit of research on this topic, and I've never heard "Middle Ages" referring only to the later medieval period and not the rest of it. At any rate this article is intended to discuss British history through the entire period, and provide links to other, more specific articles, like Scotland in the High Middle Ages and History of Anglo-Saxon England. If you want to suggest a better title, go ahead, but I can't imagine a more appropriate one for this subject.--Cúchullain t/ c 19:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

One example of a website that uses the later sense of the "Middle Ages" is www.bbc.co.uk/middle ages.Adresia (talk) 20:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't find what you're referring to, as you didn't post it as a link. At any rate, I don't think one BBC link establishes that this use is common among scholars. There are plenty of others who use "Middle Ages" in the usual way - that is, for the whole Middle Ages. And again, whatever we call it, this article is meant to cover the entire period, and I don't think there can be a more appropriate title than the one we already have.--Cúchullain t/ c  21:45, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

There are many other websites which use the restricted sense. I do not argue that it is ONLY used in this way but that BOTH ways are used. There is a larger world outside academia. Some other examples of websites are britannia.com, britainexpress.com, wsu.edu, timeref, VL History UK and Channel 4. If you do a search on Google books you will find many books that use the narrow sense. Some examples are Medieval Britain by Walter Robson (used for Keystage 3 in British schools), Medieval Britain - a very short introduction by Gillingham and Griffiths (OUP 2000), Medieval Britain by Loyn and Sorrell (1977). I dont disagree that the article should cover the wider sense but mention should be made of the other ways it is used. One view should not be pushed. If the wider view is taken then the labels for the sub-eras should be included, but the title should be kept. Adresia (talk) 19:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC).

Necessary?
Is this page really necessary? I'm not really sure what function it's currently playing, other than to duplicate other content in a small way. If it was about a theory of medieval history using "Britain" as a geographical approach, then fair enough, but I'm not sure this really exists, and there's certainly nothing in the article hinting in that direction. It would anyways be the British Isles rather than "Britain". Is England that's actually intended? That at least is what the interwikis are about. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 19:45, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Deacon of Pndapetzim, I tend to agree with you when you ask "is this page really necesary?" but would also ask why you didn't thoroughly revise the text and change the categories after moving the article? Due to the change of name the subject was changed and yet it still read like a description of medieval Britain rather than England alone and gave the impression that Wales and Scotland were part of England. I just hope it didn't get too many hits before my revision; there are enough people who think England is just another name for Britain as it is! Enaidmawr (talk) 19:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Map discussion
Yorkshirian recently added this new version of an old map to this article; it was removed by Deacon of Pndapetzim and re-added by Yorkshirian. I'd like to replace it with this map instead, which doesn't use boundaries. The changes were made to several articles, so to centralize discussion, please post at Talk:Mercia if you have an opinion. Mike Christie (talk) 02:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The previous map was incorrect as it shows Cornwall as included in Wessex - this map indicates that this was not the case in 1035.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EmpireNorth.JPG  -- William of Malmesbury, writing around 1120, says that King Athelstan of England fixed Cornwall's eastern boundary at the Tamar in 936 after the remaining Cornish had been evicted from Exeter and the rest of Devon in 927 - "Exeter was cleansed of its defilement by wiping out that filthy race". (ref: Professor Philip Payton - (1996). Cornwall. Fowey: Alexander Associates). In 944 Athelstan's successor, Edmund I of England, styled himself 'King of the English and ruler of this province of the Britons' (ref: Malcolm Todd -- The South West to AD 1000 - 1987), an indication of how that accommodation was understood at the time.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.175.157 (talk) 18:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

1st Para was gobbledegook
I've just made an edit to get rid of the worst of the opening: end of the anglo-saxon period is NOT 1500AD, there has never been a Kingdom of Wales etc. It's still pretty horrible - and without citation. Whole article needs to be re-written or deleted but unfortunately I don't have the time...DeCausa (talk) 14:19, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Expansion...
I've taken a stab at expanding the article, following the model at Scotland in the Middle Ages and similar "..in the Middle Ages" articles. I think I've covered most of the bases, and I *think* I've caught references for everything stated, but I might well have missed something. It could do with a decent copyedit and check over for balance, etc. I've tried to get a range of pictures into the article, balanced across the period. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:09, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Good job. I will take a look and ce when I am actually awake. Excellent work.--  SabreBD  (talk ) 19:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Just gave it a quick read - it looks like a nice job on a page that really needed it, and I like the methodical sourcing. All too rare on WP. I'll give it a careful read in slower time. DeCausa (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Recent literature...
Langbarthr, you couldn't point us in the direction of the current literature that lay behind the last edit, could you? Hchc2009 (talk) 17:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Dates - what's significant about 600AD?
Why does this article take 600AD as the start point for "medieval England"? In an English context, I've seen "medieval" defined as starting at either: the end of Roman rule (410), the Fall of Rome (476), or the Norman Conquest (1066). 600AD also significantly pre-dates the establishment of "England" as a kingdom, but also significantly post-dates the arrival of the "English" or the establishment of the first Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. In short: there are lots of dates that could be taken as the start of "medieval" "England", but 600AD doesn't seem to fit any of them. Iapetus (talk) 14:39, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * A lot of the specialist literature on medieval England starts at 600 AD, rather than at 410 or 476, which is why I originally went for it, but you're right, there's no magic number. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:37, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Bad article
This article does not feel like an encyclopedia article but rather it feels like some notes or aide-mémoire intended for readers already familiar with the subject. Alternatively it feels like an article intended for children. It relates events in a very terse manner without providing sufficient context. For example, much of the related events take place in France, but the article does not say a single word about the situation in France or the relationship between the English and French kings. For example, it is unclear from the article whether France had any kings at all during these events. The article keeps referring to wars in France but it does not even say against whom those wars were fought. (We cannot tell from the article whether they were fought against French, Germans, Italians, or Muslims.)

Other major defects in the article include,


 * 1. The article refers to kings only by their first names. For example, Richard the Lionheart is simply called "Richard."
 * 2. The article does not explain the fact that all those kings ("Richard," "Edward," etc.) belonged to different royal dynasties, and it does not indicate the names of the dynasties nor the beginning and endpoints of each dynasty.
 * 3. There is some childish nationalistic sentiment when talking about the Danes and French, which is anachronistic and adds to the other problems of the article.--HD86 (talk) 00:36, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

summary style applies here, HD86: no article on a long period of history is going to be able to cover every detail, particulalry since this is not an article on political history; User:Ealdgyth faced some similar issues on the Middle Ages, and may have a perspective. You'll hopefully find that the links go to articles which provide more of the information you are after. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:00, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Exactly, I totally agree with that, but that is not the problem with this article. I am not saying that the article should cover every detail. I was quite specific about the missing info.

I have read quite a few articles on history in Wikipedia (and I have contributed some articles and sections myself). Just recently I have read the History of France in the French Wiki. The scope of that article is much larger than this one since it covers the entire history of France, yet the medieval section in that article does not suffer from the problems which I pointed out here.

Again, this article feels like a jungle of war names and king names with little of actual information. It is uninformative to the reader and unpleasant to read (it irritated me enough so that I had to start this discussion). If the article mentions the name of a war, the article must also provide a little bit of info on that war. You can't just throw the name of a war and move on without telling the reader what that war was about. Also you cannot throw the names of about 50 different kings in such an unorganized and confusing manner to the reader.--HD86 (talk) 17:48, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I have narrowed down the issues to just two:


 * 1. Context of the wars in France (this is necessary because a significant portion of the article is about those wars).
 * 2. More info about the royal houses.

--HD86 (talk) 21:10, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Spelling controversies:
The spelling of "Sweyn Forkbeard" is changed in the next sentence to "Swein." Should this be changed or is it correct? Mulstev (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Knowledge of wider world
A missing aspect of this topic is the knowledge/perception of the wider world by people in medieval England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:DC87:4001:A495:DE17:1A5E:AB43 (talk) 23:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

One source is missing
The full citation of the reference number 335 (Mers) is missing in the bibliography. Taddah (talk) 14:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's actually the same as the previous citation (Myers). I think just the letter y is missing there. So, I'll fix it. Taddah (talk) 14:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)