Talk:England national football team records and statistics

How can..
Steven Warnock's england career be 6 minutes long and Stanley matthews be 22 years? matthews didn't spend 22 years on the pitch —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.178.226 (talk) 12:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Errors
Beckham did not score England's first goal of 2006WC, this was credited as an OG. Corrected. Ironick (talk) 11:43, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Why is this record significant: The Roma population of Britain is a very tiny minority, and as this is a very early match, it isn't as if this players inclusion came as the result of a long struggle for equality (as with black players), so what makes this particulaly interesting?--Jackyd101 18:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * First Roma ("gypsy") player: Raby Howell, March 9, 1895, 9-0 vs. Ireland
 * I suppose it's an interesting footnote, as it means that Frank Soo might not be classed as the first "minority" player. I'm not sure it's really worth listing as a separate record though. Actually, I'm not sure it's worth listing Soo either, since wartime football was basically just played to keep up morale, and doesn't have a great deal of significance. — sjorford++ 14:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Youngest player
Wasn't the youngest player for the English National Team Manchester Uniteds Wayne Rooney?
 * It was, before Theo Walcott's debut a month ago. — sjorford++ 08:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Does 'Youngest player to feature at the World Cup finals' include players named in the squad or just starting line-ups and substitutes? If it's the former, Theo Walcott takes this record too. 82.46.190.172 (talk) 18:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Most goals
I don't understand
 * Most goals in a match
 * Howard Vaughton, Steve Bloomer, Willy Hall and Malcolm Macdonald, all 5

Shouldn't they be listed on the next item 'four or more goals? Steve Bloomer scored 14 or something, the context should be given. Jooler 10:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Altered to clarify. Bentley Banana 09:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Table
The appearances-per-club list I'd like to put in a table, as it'll make it neater, straighter and easier to follow. However, I have little or no knowledge of such constructions. Can anyone volunteer? Bentley Banana 09:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've now taught myself and done it. Bentley Banana 12:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Original research
I think this page has strayed rather too far into the realms of original research - the starting eleven by caps table especially. Anyone else have any thoughts? Angmering 11:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

"Non-White Players"
User 86.157.72.16 has removed the entire "Non-white players" section. I take their point that it "seems slightly racist", but it was (to me at least) of interest, if only to realise how late some of the dates are. Is there a Wikipedia policy on this sort of subject somewhere? There is some sort of precedent in, for example, List of first black Major League Baseball players by team and date, but of course MLB was formally segregated until 1947. Rachel Pearce (talk) 19:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Slightly racist", i didn't realise those two words could be put together. Isn't that like "slightly dead". Anyway agree that section should be chucked. Interesting maybe in an article about diversity (or lack of) in football but not appropriate here. extraordinary (talk) 16:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

All England goalscorers
Does this list exist anywhere? Obviously the national team page contains the top 10 and this page contains many specific records but is there a list of all england goalscorers by goals scored or even the top 50? If there is can someone point me to it and maybe add a link to the main page. If not then i'm not necessarily advocating making one as it would be a nightmare to keep up to date! Cheers. extraordinary (talk) 16:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks to Ironick (talk) for pointing me in the direction of the specific page - http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamGoals/GoalsIndex.html - which is from the website at the bottom of the article that's been listed there for the past year... extraordinary (talk) 16:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Most goals from 1 club's players
I've just recalculated this and I make it 181 for Man United, and 174 for Spurs; if this is correct, then United have been ahead for a while. I get to United's 181 as follows - Charlton 49, Robson 25 (of 26), Taylor 16, Scholes 14, Rooney 12 (of 21), Beckham 11 (of 17) Coppell 7, Rowley 6, Stan Pearson 5, Stuart Pearson 5, Edwards 5, Connelly 3 (of 7), Sheringham 2 (of 11), Ferdinand 2 (of 3), Wilkins 2 (of 3), Wall, Halse, Bradley, Ince and Richardson 2 each, Webb 1 (of 4), Spence, Viollet, Stiles, Kidd, Cole, and Brown 1 each. Spurs' 174 is: Greaves 28 (of 44), Woodward 27 (of 29), Lineker 19 (of 48), Smith 13, Chivers 13, Peters 9 (of 20), Sheringham 9 (of 11), Hall 9, Hoddle 8, Anderton 7, Waddle 6, Bailey 5, Osborne 3, Ramsey 3, Defoe 3 (of 6), Gascoigne 2 (of 10), Brooks 2, Seed, Hunt, Nicholson, Medley, Mullery, Mabbutt, King and Jenas 1 each. Stevew2022 (talk) 23:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Crouch and Defoe have now put Spurs back ahead - I make it 189 to Spurs, 186 to Man United. Adjustments to the above are: Man United - Rooney from 12 (of 21) to 17 (of 26); Spurs - Defoe from 3 (of 12) to 12 (of 15)[He's scored 9 in 11 internationals since returning to Spurs], King from 1 to 2, Crouch from 0 to 5 (of 21)Stevew2022 (talk) 20:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I also don't concur with the total number of caps by club - I make it 1053 for Man United, followed by 917 for Liverpool. The United numbers I get are - Charlton 106, Gary Neville 85, Robson 77 (of 90), Scholes 66, Beckham 60 (of 115), Phil Neville 52 (of 59), Ferdinand 51 (of 78), Rooney 50 (of 67), Coppell 42, Wilkins 39 (of 84), Butt 35 (of 39), Byrne 33, Stiles 28, Brown 23, Pallister 20 (of 22), Taylor 19, Edwards 18, Greenhoff 17 (of 18), Aston 17, Ince 16 (of 53), Carrick 15 (of 22), Cole, Stuart Pearson 15, Sheringham 13 (of 51), Cockburn 13, Connelly 10 (of 20), Duxbury 10, Smith 9 (of 19), Richardson, Sharpe, Stan Pearson 8, Wall 7, Webb 6 (of 26), Hill, Rowley 6, Berry, Sadler 4, Hargreaves 3 (of 42), Anderson 3 (of 30), Parker 3 (of 19), Foster 3 (of 4), Bradley, Roberts, Silcock, Wood 3, Bailey, Chilton, Kidd, McGuinness, Spence, Viollet 2, Foulkes, Halse, Mew, Pegg, Phelan, Stepney 1 each.Stevew2022 (talk) 20:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Correction - 1050 is the Man U total - I overstated Wilkins by 1 (should be 38 not 39) and Kieran Richardson by 2 (he was on loan at West Brom for 2 of his caps) Stevew2022 (talk) 23:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Formatting - spaces between the first listing of records?
Hello. Does anyone feel, as I do, that the records at the top of the article should have a space between them? It's a bit overwhelming for the eyes trying to read them as they are, I found. I don't just want to jump in and do it, but I'm happy to if people agree. --bodnotbod (talk) 15:58, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Youngest Goal Scorer
Wayne Rooney - no dispute there but it is cited as against Liechtenstein on 10th Sept. 2003. He did score in that match BUT HAD ALREADY SCORED 4 days earlier against FYR Macedonia, a fact shown in the Wikipedia article on England's results. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.120.14 (talk) 22:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Correct - All the usual suspect websites agree. I will correct the article. Thanks.  Stevew2022 (talk) 16:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Shortest career
Why is Peter Ward listed as having the shortest career if Jim Barrett played for only four minutes?

Wilfried Zaha's only appearance was as an 85th-minute substitute against Sweden.

Tffff (talk) 14:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * A couple of websites give Zaha's substitution at 85 minutes, and a couple (including englandfootballonline) give it at 84. Can't find anything official on either the FA or FIFA's sites.  I'll add him as an 84th min substitution, with an 'active player' note.  As Jim Barrett's appearance occurred before substitutes were permitted, he could have returned to the field at any time during the game, and would therefore be listed as 'officially' having played 90 minutes. Stevew2022 (talk) 14:23, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Martin Kelly's England career appears to be even shorter - his only appearance is as an 88th-minute substitute. Tffff (talk) 12:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Ricky Lambert
Is Ricky Lambert's scoring with first touch in debut match worthy of note? Or are there others? Richard Avery (talk) 09:21, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Doubtful. There are at least four instances of players scoring in the first minute of their debut match.  In fact, the first ever goal in international football, according to contemporary reports, was scored by Kenyon-Slaney, making his debut, in the first minute v Scotland in 1873. Post-war, Bill Nicholson scored after 19 seconds on his debut v Portugal in 1951, and Stan Mortensen scored in the first minute, also v Portugal, in 1947 (Portugal were pretty easy pickings in those days - Morty went on to score 4 in that game!). In recent memory, Kieran Richardson scored after 3 minutes of his debut v the US in Chicago. I can't find any instances of substitute debutants scoring as fast as Lambert (David Nugent was on 10 minutes when he scored against Andorra - that's the closest I could find).  If the record goes to anyone, it's probably Nicholson - first touch in 19 seconds. Stevew2022 (talk) 19:42, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify and expand on the above: there are conflicting reports on the goal order in the 10-0 win over Portugal in 1947. Some authorities (e.g. englandfc.com) have Mortensen scoring in the first minute, and Tommy Lawton in the second minute, while others suggest Lawton scored first, after 17 seconds. (This is the record which appears as 'Fastest goal' in the main body of the article).  In this scenario, Mortensen's first is after 2, 3 or 7 minutes depending on the source.  None of this affects the Bill Nicholson goal, which seems to be clearly recorded at 19 seconds. (see e.g. the Guardian's obit):  "In May 1951, he was capped for England against Portugal at Everton, and scored one of his rare goals, within 19 seconds." http://www.theguardian.com/news/2004/oct/25/guardianobituaries.football. There's a goal by a sub debutant faster than Nugent but not as fast as Lambert.  Mark Chamberlain scored 7 minutes after coming on against Luxemburg in 1984. Stevew2022 (talk) 00:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Whoa! I think that answers my question. Thanks Steve. Richard Avery (talk) 06:41, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Cites and references
This page has been taken to task for failing to provide specific cites and references for most of the records contained here. My suggestion is that all of the records contained here are specifically factual. Even if they are not referenced as a record by any of the recognized sources, they can be determined with a knowledge of the appearances (and scoring activities) of every England player by a simple process. Is this original research? Or is it, as I would contend, simply representing facts which have already been presented on websites such as englandstats.com or englandfootballonline.com in a different way? The record about most internationals missed in a career has been removed. I'll admit that was pretty esoteric, but it is fairly easily derived from players appearance stats. I will continue to update the page after every England international (and leave that esoteric Carrick record off) but am only willing to put a single reference to the stats websites, not one for each record and how it was derived. Stevew2022 (talk) 07:57, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * this needs referencing as per this and this. Without refs anyone could be adding any old tosh.--Egghead06 (talk) 09:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This needs directly relevant sources. Readers are not expected to hunt through websites. Adding unsourced information especially about individuals goes against WP:BLP.--Egghead06 (talk) 07:05, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

There are approximately 430 references to individuals in this webpage, plus at least 50 additional references. Is it your contention that each of them needs to be supported by an individual inline citation. If so, I believe that would a) clutter the document to the point of illegibility, b) take several days that few people have the time to spend to find all of them; c) be a maintenance nightmare, for each time any of the referred websites makes a minor change, every cite would need to be re-found and re-tested. If not, however, what criteria would you suggest to decide which should and which should not be referenced? And who would decide those criteria? I believe that I and others who have maintained this website are following the guidelines set up in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources#General_references Under 'Types of citation, it suggests 'A general reference is a citation that supports content, but is not linked to any particular piece of material in the article through an inline citation. General references are usually listed at the end of the article in a References section', and further down 'A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not linked to any particular piece of material in the article through an inline citation. General references are usually listed at the end of the article in a "References" section, and are usually sorted by the last name of the author or the editor.(NP)The appearance of a general references section is the same as those given above in the sections on short citations and parenthetical references. If both cited and uncited references exist, their distinction can be highlighted with separate section named, e.g., "References" and "General references"'. I am sure that those who consistently maintain this page are more than open to suggestions as to how this can be done whilst still having a life outside of Wikipedia maintenance. Stevew2022 (talk) 08:16, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Scotland last team to beat England in 19th and 20th centuries
Would it be a interesting notto point out Scotland were the last team to beat England in the 19th and 20th centuries? Plus it is also true the last team to beat Scotland In those centuries was also England. JOEYTHEVIMSANTEPOET (talk) 13:09, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about the typos. JOEYTHEVIMSANTEPOET (talk) 13:11, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I meant to say would it be interesting to point out Scotland were the last team to beat England in the 19th and 20th centuries? But I did a typo. JOEYTHEVIMSANTEPOET (talk) 13:13, 2 December 2022 (UTC)