Talk:English Channel/Archive 1

"Moat that God built"
re: the "Moat that God built" comment -- this appears to be completely spurious. Google cannot find this text anywhere but in the earlier Wikipedia article. The only allusion I can find to a moat in Shakespeare is John of Gaunt's speech from Richard II:
 * This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
 * This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
 * This other eden, demi-paradise,
 * This fortress built by nature for herself
 * Against infection and the hand of war,
 * This happy breed of men, this little world,
 * This precious stone set in the silver sea,
 * Which serves it in the office of a wall
 * Or as a moat defensive to a house,
 * Against the envy of less happier lands,
 * This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England...

But it is 'nature' not God that is described as creating the moat. I have removed the comment from the article. If anyone want to reinstate it, can they please provide a cite to show where Shakespeare uses the phrase?

Google search for "Moat that God Built"

Narrowest part of the channel
Can someone establish where the channel is at its narrowest, is it: – AxSkov ( T ) 11:26, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * "being only 34 km (21 mi) from Dover to Cap Gris-Nez," as stated in this article, or
 * "just 33 km wide between Dover in the county of Kent, England, and Calais in the département of Pas-de-Calais, France," as stated in the Strait of Dover article.

Pas de Calais and kilometres
AxSkov has removed the French name 'Pas de Calais' claiming it does not belong here, but surely the French name for an important part of the English Channel 'shared' between Britain and France is really very relevant. Readers might want to know this information about the Channel! And I don't understand the rationale for changing the SI abbreviation for kilometres (km) to the full word, while leaving the abbreviation mi for miles. Don't we normally use 'km' in Wikipedia articles? I am restoring these changes but leaving the other edits AxSkov made. Chris Jefferies 09:08, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The French name is not relevant to this article and so does not belong here. It belongs on the Strait of Dover article, and if anyone wants to know the French name they can click on the Strait of Dover link. The Strait of Dover article doesn't use "La Manche" for English Channel, as it is not relevent there either. – AxSkov ( T ) 09:57, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

That seems quite a strong opinion. What do others think about this? What is the balance of opinion amongst editors of this article? Chris Jefferies 11:43, 10 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I added after the mention of the Strait of Dover in the intro paragraph that it's Pas de Calais to the French. It's silly to say it's "not relevant" especially because the term is commonly used; I know the term myself and can't read French at all.  Tempshill 20:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Rubbish, its not relevant to this article, Strait of Dover yes, English Channel, no. The French version is definitely NOT commonly used in English. I agree with AxSkov, if someone wants to know the French version then they can click on the Strait of Dover link to find out. Mark 04:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * As an idle UK reader I was interested to see what the French called it, so I'd vote to keep that statement if it came down to it ( I shall not, however, be watching this page). --bodnotbod 20:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I was of the understanding that while Pas de Calais is commonly used in English, it refers predominantly to the department (in the context of holidays etc.), rather than the strait itself. EdC 14:13, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have heard Pas de Calais in English but didn't understand it to mean the Strait of Dover, more the immmediate coastal area around Calais.

See alsos
I've taken out automatic and English Canal from the see alsos because I can't see why they are relevant. If I'm missing something then don't hesitate to put them back. Mucky Duck 09:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

French Name
Why is this mentioned? Yes the french don't like the English name but have had no part in defining the English language. Can anyone come up with a reference using the French term or its English translation use in normal language? josh (talk) 22:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Danube mentions the local name of the river in the states it flows through; as do Rhine, Elbe, Oder River and probably others. Mediterranean Sea gives some local names; as do Baltic Sea, Archipelago Sea, North Sea and so on. The Manche name is used by some cross-border bodies: University of the Transmanche, Transmanche Ferries, and widely used to refer to the Cross-Channel Euroregion. I really can't see a problem. Man vyi 06:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Box conflicting with text
I can see that the box with the Shakespeare quote in it is cutting into the text. Can someone fix this (I am new to editing)?

Also, to help others see what I'm seeing:

http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=erroryc1.jpg --Not Applicable 17:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've left a note at Template talk:Quote box. If you want to Watch that page, you'll be able to chip in when necessary. Cheers, JackyR | Talk 23:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem, as shown in the screen capture link above, can most likely be fixed by adding a line break tag, e.g., , , , or .  Try one of the examples to see what works.  I added a to Template talk:Quote box.  See the "before" and "after" by viewing the editing history. &mdash;QuicksilverT @ 20:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

David Walliams
Is David Walliams' crossing really of encyclopaedaic importance? Worthy as the charity is is it it appropriate to advertise it here? Gerry Lynch 11:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I question it too. Widefox 22:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Table
I think that the big table about notable channel crossings looks not so good. I would suggest writing it as an article section instead of a table? Anyone agrees? -- ¿¡Exir  Kamalabadi?! Join Esperanza! 13:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Fastest ever crossing by any vessel
I can't find any information on Google about the fastest crossing in a speedboat. I would guess a time of about 15 minutes. Anthony717 17:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The swimming section...
...is a mess:


 * There's no explanation of why the Channel Swimming Association was dissolved in 1999 and replaced by the two new bodies;
 * There's inconsistent capitalisation in phrases such as "Channel Swimming". I can't see why the word "Swim[ming]" should be capitalised other than in names of organisations, any more than "Cross-Country Running" would be correct;
 * It's mentioned that the "King of the Channel" title is disputed, but then we get "The "King of the Channel" title is held by Kevin Murphy..." with no qualification;
 * The last part, giving the various totals, is very unclear and for example does not explain what "ratified" means (by whom? When? Who accepts this?)
 * For goodness' sake put in some subsection headings!

And so on and so forth... 81.153.110.14 04:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, to be brief: The original Channel Swimming Association split, with much acrimony (too much to go into detail here), into the CSA ltd and CSPF ltd in 1999, with long standing members of the original body founding both movements. Both are ratified by the British and World swimming governing bodies (ASA and FINA) and are able to authenticate channel crossings, a point that the CSA for reasons known only to itself has continued to ignore, actually refusing to recognise CSPF swims, despite every other official body (including the Guiness book of records) recognising both bodies. Hence the 'dispute'. A good analogy would be the Football League refusing to recognise the Premiership and stubbornly declaring that Sunderland, not Manchester United were the English football champions! Both organisations operate to virtually identical rules, upholding the traditions of channel swimming but seem to be unable to agree, however the CSPF will recognise all CSA swims as valid. The fact that the CSPF is the larger organisation, with the most sucessful male and female swimmers of all time serving in their ranks gives them the slightly higher profile and status. The CSA has often been accused of operating as a 'closed shop', and reportedly offer little real help until one is a fully paid up member. The CSPF have gained great credit due to help and advice freely given, and hold free training camps all summer in Dover, welcoming swimmers of both bodies, and those world wide -- I wonder whether given remarks by Widefox, Exir Kamalabadi and others if the consensus is that the Channel Swimming section would be better in Swimming with just a link from here. This particularly applies if the section needs further expansion. Logically people interested in Channel swimming are more likely to be interested in other aspects of swimming than in Channel geology whilst UK defence historians will take no comfort whatsoever in the fact that the Channel can be swum in ever faster times!! JRPG 20:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I think there's a new record. I don't know who did it but I think it should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.126.64.150 (talk) 08:09, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

I think that Penny Lee Dean should be mentioned here.

St. Helier population
that list of populations seems rather bizarre to me. Where does the '48,997 inhabitants in St.Helier' figure come from? The actual St.Helier article gives it somewhere around the 20,000 mark. Also, why is Guernsey not there? It seems completely arbitrary.

I agree. Listing the populations of major English cities is likely to fail due to frequent boundaries changes. Where does Portsmouth or Southampton begin and end? Surely it is adequate just to say the 10 largest cities are ..and then provide a link. I note User:MacRusgail is a contributor to this section and maybe he has more experience of this than we have. I'll ask him for his comments. JRPG 20:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Exact limits of the Channel 2
Could anyone specify where the Channel ends? As someone asked above, is it at Cap Gris Nez that the North Sea starts? --Hooiwind 14:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Hooiwind, given the recent addition to the geography section, the North sea stopped at the Cap Gris Nez-Dover chalk dam which formed the land bridge to Europe, it seems even more logical to say that that is the boundary though of course, Dover Straits TSS traffic is monitored over a much greater range, see shipping. I would expect some academic to define the other end at some point, possibly as the Atlantic shore before the land bridge collapsed but Lands End-Ushant will do for now. On that basis I've moved a few battles(!) from the Channel into the North Sea. JRPG 21:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The authority is the International Hydrographic Office S-23 Limits of Oceans and Seas http://www.iho.shom.fr

On the west - From the coast of Brittany Westward along the parallel (48 deg 28 min N) of the East extreme of Ushant (Ledenes), through this island to West extreme thereof (Pointe de Pern), thence to Bishop Rock, the Southwest extreme of the Scilly Isles, and on a line passing to the Westward of these Isles as far as the North extreme (Lion Rock) and thence Eastwards to the Longships (50 deg 04 min N) and on to Lands End.

On the east - The Southwestern limit of the North Sea. Which is defined as - A line joining the Walde Lighthouse (France, 1 deg 55 min E) and Leathercoat Point (England, 51 deg 10 min N).

--GraemePotter 20:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Shipping section needs work
"Accidents will happen. A combination of radar difficulties in monitoring areas near cliffs, a failure of a CCTV system, incorrect operation of the anchor, the inability of the crew to follow standard procedures of using a GPS to provide early warning of the ship dragging the anchor and reluctance to admit the mistake and start the engine led to the MV Willy running aground in Cawsand bay, Cornwall in January 2002. The Marine Accident Investigation Branch report makes it clear that the harbour controllers were actually informed of impending disaster by shore observers even before the crew were themselves aware! The village of Kingsand was evacuated for 3 days due to very serious risk of explosion and the ship was stranded for 11 days."

Poor POV. Also the next part about swimming shouldn't belong under shipping, it should be under the Swimming section.71.202.212.85 10:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I wrote this section and welcome any suggestions to improve it. The objective was to provide a numeric description, a description of how shipping controlled and an indication that it is still quite a hazardous waterway. I didn't mention the problems they have with rogue vessels going the wrong way in the shipping lanes. I don't understand the comment about "poor POV". MV Willy was merely one of the more startling accidents. Feel free to email me or make further suggestions on how it can be improved. JRPG (talk) 22:25, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

A Polder in the English Channel?
Did anyone ever propose to reclaim the land under the English Channel? A land-connection between France and the UK could be of huge significance. --Maccaroni 15:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, because it would financially ruin the country foolish enough to endeavor it. Besides, it would annoy the Dutch ;o).--MWAK 09:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I am afraid you are not able to do this, contrary to the Dutch ;)--Tom Meijer (talk) 21:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Youngest ever?
The youngest ever swimmer, age 15 in 1972, seems to conflict with the story of Leonore Modell, who appeared on I've Got A Secret in 1964 and had become the youngest person to have done it at age 14. This episode just aired. A little web searching finds a number of notes about her doing so. Fact conflict? TheHYPO (talk) 01:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Petty bickering
>>The titles "King" and "Queen" of the Channel [...] are taken seriously by the swimming community and there has been some controversy over the childish refusal by some to recognise others' swims.

>>The righful "King of the Channel" title was conferred by the CSPF on Kevin Murphy (34 crossings, including three doubles) and then dubiously by the CSA on Michael Read (with 33 crossings of the English Channel authenticated by the CSA.[neutrality disputed]

This kind of crap has no place on wikipedia. Obviously CSA proponents are going to call the CSPF declaration dubious. There is no citation indicating dubiousity on either side and this is clearly some whiner's opinion [I should note that I neither know nor care about either side of the argument]. TheHYPO (talk) 01:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Isle of Thanet
The Isle of Thanet wikipedia page seems to suggest that the English Channel was formed in 6500 BC. Could someone who knows about these things please correct it? Thanks.

84.71.229.192 (talk) 10:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Celtic Sea
The Celtic Sea is not separated by Cornwall from the English Channel. The Celtic Sea stretches all the way to Brittany and abuts the Channel directly, forming its western border. Image:UK Radar1940.JPG sort-of shows this correctly. Image:Carte de la Manche.png is inaccurate and ought to be amended or removed. jnestorius(talk) 16:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Car transfer
Is there any automobile tunnel or any other transfer beneath the Channel? it seems there is only rail tunnel... --Monkbel 08:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, it's just for trains (but the two governments might build one for road vehicles). It's... Thelb4! 17:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The Eurotunnel Shuttle/Le Shuttle is used to transport cars/lorries/buses accross (under) the channel in trains, which does the job just as well Audigex (talk) 00:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Exact limits of the Channel
Officially, as far as the French are concerned, The English Channel ends at Cap Gris-Nez, which would tend to put the "Channel Tunnel" in the North Sea. Does anyone have any certain info concerning the limits on the English coastline?
 * As far as the french are concerned, a lot of things are different... this is the English Language wikipedia and as far as the English are concerned, the channel goes a bit further up than that. It doesn't make much of a difference - the waters are hardly disputed - it's just a case of different naming for the same area, or the same naming for a different area. Audigex (talk) 00:04, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Jetpack?
The Yves Rossy "jetpack" doesn't qualify as a jetpack in my world. A jetpack would a flying machine for one man that is carried on ones person that achieves lift using some kind of thrusters/rockets/jets. The Yves Rossy "jetpack" fails the last criterium, since it relies on wings for its lift. Opinions? 95.209.19.139 (talk) 16:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Prehistoric geography of the channel
Over on Talk:Human migration it's claimed that, as implied here, the Channel was not only walkable, but probably farmable. Would be nice to include some discussion of when this was the case exactly, and what's been found on the floor of the Channel, if anything. Any farmhouses down there for sale? Tempshill 19:55, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Although this audio programme is about the prehistoric coast of Norfolk, and the North Sea when it was crossable on foot, you may find it interesting. Unearthing Mysteries - streaming audio. Ian Dunster (talk) 19:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This article contains interesting information on how the Channel was created. Our article currently has nothing. -- Derek Ross | Talk'' 22:50, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Wot no Ice Age?
Really?!? No mention of impact of the last ice age and the land bridge joining the British Isles to continental Europe as ice sheets retreated and before sea levels rose to reform the channel some 8-10,000 years ago?

(This is of course also the answer to the anon's question about the formation of the Isle of Thanet above).

The truth is that Wikipedia doesn't work any more. It looks like this glaring omission is the result of nobody noticing a section on Formation being deleted a couple of years ago. It used to be in there. -- Solipsist (talk) 09:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Maritime Laws
Shouldn't there at least be a mention under "Shipping" about which maritime laws apply? Imho that's an important topic in that context. Looking through the stuff about such laws on Wikipedia (I'm underwhelmed, lousy articles) it seems that both UK and French laws apply to the channel. That's true? Links to the relevant articles would be good.Gray62 (talk) 16:02, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Strait or Straits?
By Google "straits" seems to be used about 10 times as often as "strait". On a river a laterally restricted length is "Narrows" (strait means narrow). Is the use of "strait" in WP more than just a feeling that somehow it is "wrong" to use a plural looking word?--SilasW (talk) 14:31, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

First ferry
It seems odd to say that the "first passenger ferry to cross the channel" was in 1821. Since people had been regularly crossing it for several thousand years before that, one wonders how they all managed. Did they swim? It seems to me that this claim would benefit from some further clarification of exactly how "ferry" is defined. 86.174.161.253 (talk) 02:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC).

Date contradictions
From this article:


 * "The Channel is of geologically recent origins, having been dry land for most of the Pleistocene period. It is thought to have been created between 450,000 and 180,000 years ago by two catastrophic glacial lake outburst floods caused by the breaching of the Weald-Artois Anticline, a ridge which held back a large proglacial lake in the Doggerland region, now submerged under the North Sea. The flood would have lasted several months, releasing as much as one million cubic metres of water per second. The cause of the breach is not known but may have been caused by an earthquake or simply the build-up of water pressure in the lake. As well as destroying the isthmus that connected Britain to continental Europe, the flood carved a large bedrock-floored valley down the length of the English Channel, leaving behind streamlined islands and longitudinal erosional grooves characteristic of catastrophic megaflood events.[6][7] The Celtic Sea is to the west of the Channel."

Yet Doggerland gives a vastly later date (c. 6500BC) for the separation of Britain from continental Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.161.253 (talk) 02:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is a contradiction, but there may be a need for a clearer explanation. Many, many fluctuations in sea level would have occurred between the period of 180K-450K BP when the Channel was created, and the time of 6500 BP when the Storegga Slide occurred.  When sea levels were high, Britain would have been an island, but when it was low - in particular when water was locked up in ice sheets - it would have been connected to Europe across what is now the southern North Sea, long after the landform of the Channel itself had been created.  The first map at Doggerland shows the existence of the Channel, as an inlet, while the land bridge itself existed to its north-east.  The Storegga tsunami did not itself destroy "Doggerland" as a landform - it presumably destroyed the human culture living in that area, but the landform itself would have been steadily submerging as sea levels rose and land subsided from about 10,000 BP, finally being fully submerged by around 5000 BP.  So, "Doggerland" was the last time that Britain and Europe had a land link, but the Channel had been created as a landform many millennia earlier.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:28, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Text now amended, for clarification. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:48, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you, that is now much clearer. Regards, 86.135.29.241 (talk) 11:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC).

French Owned Channel Islands
There's no mention her of Chausey or Le Mont St Michael 92.7.160.226 (talk) 22:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Now added. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:58, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Did the channel freeze in 1693 (or 1684)?
I see someone has added the claim that the Channel froze in 1693, based on recent BBC article quoting one Robert Penn, co-author of The Wrong Kind of Snow: How the Weather Made Britain. This seems unlikely to me. If the Channel ever did freeze around this time, it is more likely to have been 1684. Most sources I could find on the web only say the sea froze out two or three miles. For example http://www.rmets.org/pdf/qj74manley.pdf (scanned PDF, see bottom of page 400).

About the best contemporary description I could find is from http://www.pastpresented.info/frost1683.htm
 * Lyd [Lydd] ffeby 9th, 1683/4.
 * Loving Cossin,
 * ... The frost broke w'th us last tuesday, which being more noteable than any since the memory of man, take a small account as followeth: the first Instant Mr. Shoesmith told me that the tide for some dayes had not been seen to flow neer folstone [Folkestone] towne by 3 leagues, by Reason of the Ice which lay there; that the Ice lay some miles off in the sea ag'st Romny [Romney], and that there was uppon the topp of the Steeples to be seen and [sic] Islands of Ice, one the West of the Light many miles long; but the next day, when I was at the Light, I took a boat-hook in my hand, and seeing the Ice lying soe thick I went on till I was about 2 rods uppon the sea, so far that Thomas Smith judged there was 3 faddom of water undr me; if I had been there at full sea (which was an hour or more before) I might have gone out a mile, the flakes joyned so close together, and where I put my staf between them I felt Ice underneath. This was, as old Quick judges, about a league in breadth ag'st the poynt, but at farly poynt it seemed to be at least 3 leagues; in length it was as far as I could see from East to West, and 'tis verily believed was the same from dover to the land's end. Old Quick observed some flakes to begin to come about 12 days before from the Eastward, which increased every day, and upon the fall of the tide went always toward the West, w'ch by Reason of the wind never return'd again. About 2 houres after I was uppon it, I observed that when the wind and tide went together, then all the Ice moved as fast as I could ride foot pace along by the side of it, and did drive most part of it from the shore directly towards beachy poynt [Beachey Head]. I judg it must come from holland or other eastern p'ts, w'ch by Reason of a continued eastally wind was brought this way. A great deale of it remanes yett to be seen in the sea, but not soe much but that the vessells now pass againe, which was more (as I was told) then the pecquet boats did for some weeks. ...
 * RICH. FREEBODY.
 * 'Tis said that Ice between dover and Callis [Calais] joyned together within about a league.

There are number of pages that claim "Ice between Dover & Calais 'joined together'", but without further details or references. For example http://booty.org.uk/booty.weather/climate/1650_1699.htm

Does anyone have any more details? Did the Channel really freeze? 192.171.3.126 (talk) 13:50, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I came here (after trying 1693) as I was stunned when I read the BBC article, as it is the only time I've read anything along these lines (since the last Ice Age, anyway). Whatever the truth of the matter, I seriously doubt that the entire English Channel could have frozen solid (wouldn't that mean it would be frozen down to the sea bed?)  I'm going to rephrase the sentence... sheridan (talk) 15:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Robert Penn is a journalist who writes amusing works of non-fiction. I'm not sure he is a reliable source, but I don't know whether his book gives a source.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:28, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Why not just change the article to say that the Channel froze in the 17th Century? Bazonka (talk) 21:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The February 1684 freeze cited above seems like the best candidate. (At the time it would have been described as 1683, because the year date did not change until Lady Day.)  There is an additional source here: "In 1684, ice formed on the sea in a belt 3 miles wide on the Channel coast of Kent and 2 miles wide on the French side...".   I can't find any references, other than the BBC article, to a freeze in 1693, so I propose the text be changed to refer to the 1684 freeze, with refs.  I suspect (but obviously don't know) that the Feb 1684 freeze was misinterpreted as 1683, and then a typo or something changed it to 1693.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:06, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

G. M. Salati
in italian articles is writed that the first crossing by swim was G. M. Salati. is true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.65.90.151 (talk) 21:12, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * We would need a reliable source before including this in the article. The Italian Wiki is unsourced, and I can't find anything suitable elsewhere, although I haven't done a through search. Bazonka (talk) 21:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A quick search on Google (including Books and Scholar) doesn't find any reliable mentions of Salati crossing in 1817, though there are mentions in blogs and probable WP mirror sites. Checking the history of the Italian WP page, it appears to be vandalism added in this edit in April 2008.  I'll (belatedly) revert it (with edit summary in English, sorry!)  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:53, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Name
An enthusiastic German contributor has overwritten the entire entry. What's the process for creating 'other language' pages?--dgd

The English channel in Portuguese is known as "canal da Mancha" like in French, in Spanish... the same. and other languages too. Why the English people call it English Channel? Pedro 20:41, 7 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Why shouldn't we call it the English Channel? I don't see why all languages should use identical terms. BTW, the Welsh call it Môr Udd. I'm not sure why-- I heard it was the corruption of the name of an ancient tribe. Marnanel 21:41, May 7, 2004 (UTC)


 * I've never eard of Welsh language. It's Strange. Normally translations are used. Is there a reason? Cause the channel could be called French Channel by the French.Pedro 22:47, 7 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm sure the French could call it that if they wished; they don't really need to consult the English on the matter any more than the English needed to ask the opinions of French speakers before naming the channel. I don't really see what the problem is: it seems quite reasonable to me that different communities living on opposite sides of the same sea might pick differing names.


 * As to Welsh-- it has half a million speakers and a fairly active Wikipedia (http://cy.wikipedia.org ). Drop by sometime! Marnanel 01:13, May 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * And as far as the Welsh name for the English Channel is concerned, 'Môr Udd' is pronounced something like 'More Eeth' with 'th' as in 'there', not 'thank'. 'Môr' means 'sea' (cf Latin 'mare', French 'mer', English 'marine' and 'maritime') and 'Udd' means 'lord'. So an English translation of the Welsh name is 'The Lord's Sea'.


 * But I'm English and have only a smattering of Welsh. Maybe a Welsh-speaker out there can confirm, correct or amplify as necessary.


 * I'm curious about the Udd==lord part. The BBC's dictionary doesn't know "udd" and translates "lord" as "arglwydd", which is the only word I've seen used in Welsh-- not that I'm anything of an expert. Marnanel 12:52, May 8, 2004 (UTC)


 * I've seen the Welsh wikipedia, the language is too obscure. is it widly spoken? Is the first-language of whom? Pedro 00:32, 9 May 2004 (UTC)


 * It's spoken to some degree by a little more than 20% of the population of Wales: that's about 600,000 people. Several hundred thousand of those speak it as a first language, I believe. All schools in Wales must teach it, and in many it's the primary language of instruction. There's a Welsh-language TV station and it has officially equal status with English in Wales. More information is at Welsh language. Marnanel 00:51, May 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * The Welsh language is not widely known because it had become essentially a dead language, with the exception of a few small rural communities before it was ressurected by a concerted Welsh nationalistic effort by legislation for bi-lingual schools and signs.Jameskeates 17:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's Engelska Kanal or a variant in the Scandinavian languages, but Ärmelkanal or similar in other Germanic languages. The isogloss would appear to pass through the Channel, across Jutland and up the Baltic; the Russian is Ла-Манш, clearly a transliteration of the French. The Celtic languages all seem to have their own names; the Cornish is Chanel, similar to the Dutch Het Kanaal, but the Breton is Mor Breizh (Breton Sea?) So it's not purely a case of English chauvinism, likely as that might seem. EdC 14:02, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Because this is the English language wikipedia and English Channel is the English language name. Easy enough. Besides which, we like having our own little bit of sea named after us. If you take the channel away, we'll likely claim the Atlantic as the English Ocean - annoying the Irish and Americans quite a bit, I'd imagine. Audigex (talk) 23:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I have added a reference to Camden and to a 1450 map. Crococolana 14:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In Kipling's house in Sussex there is a map of Europe on the wall and the EC is called the 'British Chanel'! It was made around 1900. I have heard this 'British' version elsewhere since then, and it seems it was used till the 1950s at least. Can we amend this section to reflect this?Malick78 18:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's a page where "British Channel" is used in an old map. It's used here and here too. I'll add it if no one minds, though some info of when we stopped calling it the GB Channel would be of interest if anyone knows. Malick78 (talk) 21:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There's also: the Irish Sea & Celtic Sea. The North Sea's also known as the German Sea etc etc etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.23.10.204 (talk) 12:50, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

'Udd' is an old word for lord, ruler, king, and has survived in surnames such as 'Gruffudd' (strong lord)(see A Dictionary of the Welsh Language, vol.4, p. 3699). Môr Udd, or Môr Rudd was used for the North Sea, but later for the 'English Channel' (DWL, vol 3, p. 2486).'Rhudd' could refer to colour (red/stained/bloody). Welsh is a thriving language, used in all parts of Wales: Cardiff, the capital, has more Welsh speakers than many of the rural counties. See the website of the Welsh Language Board for more information. Rhysial (talk) 10:15, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Tides
Needs a section or at least a mention on tides, resonant chamber, biggest tides on earth ex Bay of Fundy I think it is etc. I can take a stab but I am far from an expert so will only do so by default. Wportre (talk) 12:42, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Mixed Units
Is there any good reason why both miles and km are used as primary units in the same sentence, it doesn't read well... "It is about 350 miles (563km) long and at its widest is 240 km (150 miles)." I have changed the primary unit to kilometres for now, i.e. "It is about 560 km long (350 miles)...", although if someone has a good reason to make the primary unit miles I'm sure that'd work too! Matt Day 12:18, 22 May, 2004 (UTC)


 * Most likely because the article was edited at different times by an American and non-American. Some Americans still hang on to the forlorn notion that the world is using Imperial units, while the rest of the world, and U.S. industry, have long ago changed to SI units (Heh, heh!).  In my opinion, Wikipedia articles should be written using metric units as the primary, and Imperial (parenthetically) as the secondary, if they're mentioned at all. &mdash;QuicksilverT @ 20:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, for distances such as these, imperial units are still the only units in common use in England (if you ever drive in the UK, you will see distances given in miles and speed limits in miles per hour). As this article is about the English Channel, English units would make more sense. However, like most Brits I am bilingual with units and have no axe to grind about metric supremacy so will leave the kilometres alone as primary units! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.107.183.201 (talk) 21:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely agree; need both IMO. Also a good case to be made for nautical mile dimensions. (1' of arc at the Equator, 1.852km). Wportre (talk) 12:46, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Changing coastline in historic times?
Isn't it true that the coastline of the Channel has seen significant changes even in historic times? If so it should be added. -- 77.7.142.251 (talk) 08:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It depends what you mean by "significant changes", and indeed what period you consider "historic" rather than "prehistoric". At the time humans first came to Britain, the island was linked to Europe - though not across the Channel but across the southern part of what became the North Sea.  The Channel, as a major landform, already existed.  The changes in "historic" times have essentially been of lowlying saltmarsh and estuaries silting up and being reclaimed for agriculture, since Roman times, together with natural processes of erosion and deposition that have, for example, changed the shape of Dungeness and eroded away some coastal fortifications.  This paper gives a technical overview, which I think should be summarised in the article.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:10, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Population
The text said that both sides are heaily populated. Well, it must be said that the English shore is much more populated! the list of main cities clearlu shows it: 5 urban areas of more than 300 000 people for the English side (plus other important ones), when in French side the biggest urban area hardly reach 250 000 people, the rest are quite average-sized cities. Actually the English coast of the English Channel is the most densily populated coast of the UK, when in France the Channel coast is not the most densily populated (the most densely populated coast in France is the coast on the Mediterranean sea). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.59.166 (talk) 23:38, 24 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The text is not about the physical coast in itself, but about the geographical shore. French regions as the lower Seine (from Paris to Le Havre via Rouen), urban areas of Caen, Rennes...all belong more or less in the Channel geographical and economical space. They are historically heavily populated regions in France as Britain, though since modern times, the "Sun belt" phenomenon has carried French population rather in the southern part of the country.  --91.200.171.245 (talk) 20:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Paris is situated 160km inside the land. That makes the relation to the area quite tenous (London is much closer to the channel, and many other British cities such as Bath, Bristol, reading are much closer to the channel area than Paris, Birmingham is not much farther). If the fact that Paris would be in the "channel geographical space just because the Seine flow into it; then Lyon, Geneve or Dijon are part of the mediterranean area because the Rhone and Saone flow into the mediterranean. Saying that the Channel area in France are traditionnally the heavily populated areas of the country is just plainly wrong. All the mediterranean and Rhone valley was an axis of density much before the more recent "sun belt" effects as you call them. The original heart of density in France is precicely the mediterranean area and Rhone Valley, where lie the oldest urban web long time before the rise of urbanity in the northern shore. Rouen used to be quite important city during the medieval times, and as a port city for northern France, but the other cities were not as much important. PS: Rennes is now an important city because there have been a "sun belt" effect; the city has been very attractive for the last decades. But still is not a major city as the big southern ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.24.39.25 (talk) 13:48, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Archaeology (Shipwrecks)
I've just watched a programme called "Journeys to the Bottom of the Sea: The Mystery of the M1" which stated that the English Channel has more shipwrecks per square mile than any other body of water. Can anyone find a source to support this statement so we can add it to the article? Ninja-lewis 18:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It's probably comforting to know that if you are shipwrecked there you have a good chance of being preserved for archaeology! I remember one museum saying there were 250,000 wrecks around the UK coast ..and a very fine collection on the Goodwin sands. I don't know if there is any better academic source http://www.ryemuseum.co.uk/shipwrec.htm

JRPG 23:28, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The authority on wrecks is the Wrecks Office of the UK Hydrographic Office. Given that they quote over 70,000 wrecks in their database, which extends beyond the UK, 250,000 seems hopefull. http://www.admiraltyleisure.co.uk/diveSite.asp --GraemePotter 19:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that hopeful is the right word! The museum concerned was in Cornwall and was called something like the Shipwreck museum but it seems to have disappeared. Unfortunately the reasoning behind the estimate wasn't given but I assume it is an estimate of all wrecks over a period of at least 3 millenia. http://www.shipwrecks.uk.com/info3.htm is trying to produce a complete index of known wrecks at a cost. JRPG (talk) 22:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I suppose 5 years is rather a long wait for a response on a talkpage:) but the Museum of Shipwrecks in Charlestown, Cornwall, former curator Richard Larn has an information board saying "At a conservative estimate, the remains of at least a quarter of a million ships lie wrecked on the seabed around the United Kingdom alone." JRPG (talk) 19:10, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Area, Depth, Volume do not fit together
The Water volume of 75.000 km³ given in the info table seems highly implausible, given the values of area and average depth:

75000 km² * 0.063 km = 4725 km³ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.75.67.229 (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed. It was added in this edit last year.  I've removed it - it was unsourced, and if a source can be found a figure can be added later.  Thank you for noticing the error.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:54, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Norsemen and Normans
Most of this section seems to be irrelevant or only marginally relevant to the English Channel. Unfortunately I do not have the necessary time to sort this section out otherwise I would do so. Thanks, Bazonka (talk) 11:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

French name?
What does the French name "La Manche" directly translate to, in English? -- Mark 05:03, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * From what I've been able to find out, the French name "La Manche" translates as "the sleeve" in English – AxSkov ( T ) 06:39, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Based on the shape of a medieval sleeve. AnonMoos 03:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's folk etymology. We don't know why it's called that, just that it is.  It's entirely possible that calling channel-like seaways "sleeves" was just very common at some point, because many do have sleevelike proportions.  The article suggests that Minch and Manche may share a Celtic root, but there's no evidence to suggest Minch was even a Celtic word anyway.... Prof Wrong (talk) 11:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The German name "Ärmelkanal" means "sleeve channel". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.188.180 (talk) 10:31, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Dover-Calais ferry
is currently a redirect to P&O Ferries. As there are also other companies operating ferries on this route I don't think the current target is appropriate. You are invited to the discussion at Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 September 28 regarding what would be better. Thryduulf (talk) 14:41, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Jersey and Guernsey Norman French names for English Channel
Missing, can anyone help to improve the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varnebank (talk • contribs) 23:42, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Coracle
I've added a 1974 crossing by coracle under § By boat, in its correct chronological place. The paragraph is copied from Coracle, § Today and noted on the Talk page there.

To discuss this with me, please me. Thnidu (talk) 06:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

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Main Image
Should the satellite image at the start of the article not say "Isle of Wight" instead of just "Wight"? As far is I'm aware, the former is the island's official name.

The satellite image is a waste of space (pun intended). Replace it with a simple diagram showing the limits of the channel as a shaded area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.245.40.163 (talk) 19:58, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Info box
The info box has a line 'basin_countries' where recently some distinct entities in political geography have been added which are not countries. I suggest that the info box line title 'basin countries' be changed to accommodate them to something like 'distinct entities in political geography' if their inclusion in the 'islands' line is not considered sufficient. IMHO it would be better not to do that. There are no sources in the article for the additions to the infobox being countries that I have found. SovalValtos (talk) 21:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read the article on "country", and the thread above. If you want to change the template, the place to raise it is on the template talk page.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:09, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Jersey and Guernsey as "countries"
- The fact that they are not sovereign states does not in any way alter the fact that they are countries in the sense used in our article - that is, each is "a distinct entity in political geography". The mentions of Jersey and Guernsey in the infobox should be retained. If editors disagree with the definition of "country", it is a matter for discussion on the talk page of that article (where it has already been discussed), not this one. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:42, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The Channel Islands comprise two sovereign states, the Bailiwick of Jersey (Jersey), and the Bailiwick of Guernsey (Guernsey, Alderney, Sark, Herm, Jethou and Brecqhou, plus numerous uninhabited islands. Neither is part of the UK, or France. Therefore they are correct to the infobox. Mjroots (talk) 22:02, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sovereign, I think, but certainly self-determining countries. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:11, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Confusing

 * Before the Devensian glaciation (the most recent ice age that ended around 10,000 years ago), Britain and Ireland were part of continental Europe ... 
 * ... more than 200,000 years ago a single catastrophic glacial lake outburst flood overtopped the Weald-Artois Anticline and scoured a channel through an expanse of low-lying tundra, right down to the underlying chalk bedrock. 
 * ... more than 200,000 years ago a single catastrophic glacial lake outburst flood overtopped the Weald-Artois Anticline and scoured a channel through an expanse of low-lying tundra, right down to the underlying chalk bedrock. 

This is confusing. The initial mention of 10,000 years gives one the impression that the Channel formed around that time, or a little before. Then there is a sudden leap to more 200,000 years ago. The impression is also given that the events of the Devensian glaciation caused the formation of the channel, whereas the article Devensian glaciation says that this period did not even begin until around 110,000 years ago. So why is it even mentioned? What do the Devensian glaciation and the fact that it ended around 10,000 years ago have to do with anything? This is never explained. 81.152.70.167 (talk) 19:19, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Political geography
The article omits important details concerning borders, territorial waters etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.86.117.208 (talk) 11:20, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

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Transport and crossings sections
Does anyone think the transport section should be moved to be a sub section of the crossings section?SovalValtos (talk) 04:15, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Achim Schloffel Channelcrossing 2012?
Hi, I've recently found that this guy crossed the channel with scuba diving equipment in 2012 https://xray-mag.com/content/achim-schloffel-crosses-english-channel https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achim_Schl%C3%B6ffel

Would it be a good addition for the main page? Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zdazee (talk • contribs) 02:04, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Weird phrasing
This line sounds strange to me...

Diodorus Siculus and Pliny[31] both suggest trade between the rebel Celtic tribes of Armorica and Iron Age Britain flourished.

Under Human History Adamilo (talk) 16:05, 3 February 2020 (UTC)