Talk:English Football League/Archive 1

Logo
Now that The Football League has gone to all the trouble of rebranding themselves, do you think we'd be allowed to use their (rather nice) new logo as an image on this page? It's available at. BBC News had it on their site, but I'm not sure if they have some sort of special permission. Surely their logo can be featured here too under fair use?

Move to Football League?
I seem to recall this being discussed before, but I'd like to suggest that this is moved to Football League, without the definite article. sjorford// 10:18, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Not I'm bothered either way, but I believe 'The Football League' is its official name. It would be a bit like moving The Times to Times. Also, that'd be a lot of links to fix.
 * I think there's a subtle difference; The Times is a title, whereas The Football League is a name (very subtle, I know). Anyway, the links aren't a problem, as redirects will take care of it either way. sjorford// 17:55, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Football League is already a redirect page. If the article is moved there will be some double-redirects to fix. -- Arwel 18:25, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Old move request

 * Please also see Talk:The Football Association, also listed for moving.

The Football League → Football League - same reasons as above. sjorford #£@%&$?!  15:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~ 


 * Against. The is part of the name and the current title follows the Naming_conventions Bornintheguz 16:21, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose "The is part of the name" Jooler 18:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is the official name of the organisation. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 05:57, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Agree completely with sjorford. Proteus (Talk) 13:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The is an integral part of the organisation's name. -- Arwel 14:15, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Many organisations use "The" in their official name, but this is generally not included in the WP title. Qwghlm 08:45, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. See Naming_conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name).  I don't think many people would capitalise it in running text. CTOAGN 11:22, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose - see everyone else's comments below - Master Of Ninja 20:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oppose - "The" is part of the offical name and fits with Wiki naming conventions. - Pal 21:18, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. 'The' rarely capitalised in running text, as per Wikipedia conventions. -- Necrothesp 14:43, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Dragons flight 07:23, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

Alright, it's finally got to me, so I've put this (and The Football Association) on WP:RM. Main reasons:
 * WP standard is generally not to use "The" for names of organisations such as this one
 * No it isn't see Naming_conventions Bornintheguz 17:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It's easier to link to Football League in the middle of a sentence (yes, I know there's a redirect, but it's nice not to link directly to redirects, or to have to pipe the link)
 * I 'think' that in 99% of cases 'the' will be in front so this makes very little difference Bornintheguz 17:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * There's no ambiguity: Football League and Football league both already link here, and the latter could potentially be turned into a redirect/article without affecting this renaming. sjorford #£@%&$?!  15:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Check out The FA website. They always use "The" in their own publications, even capitalizing it mid-sentence.  I don't see why we should treat it any differently here. - Pal 21:18, September 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * This is a manual of style exception. The FA is specifically cited on Naming_conventions_(definite_and_indefinite_articles_at_beginning_of_name) Jooler 17:48, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Wrongly, according to the basic principle listed on the same page: "If the definite or indefinite article article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the page name. Otherwise, do not include it at the beginning of the page name." Usually in this case, it would not be capitalised in running text in most publications. -- Necrothesp 03:35, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
 * The FA should be capitalised in running text. What better authority in this particular case than FIFA?, ,,, (also as The F.A. , ,,) -sometimes writers do not adhere to this rule as you find when people write "the Hague", but it is the correct rule in this case. Jooler 06:12, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Use of Football League Confusing
I think this article has some discrepancies regarding the term 'Football League'. Itr seems the author(s) have assumed that prior to the Premier League being formed the teams involved we're part of the football league. This isn't not true. The Premier League was mearly a re-badging of the Division 1 (mainly for marketing purposes), 'the football league' did not exist prior the premier league. Parts of the article refering to this have to be changed. Any objections? Jamie 12:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I object, as you're mistaken. The Football League was formed in 1885, and had grown to 92 teams in four divisions by 1992. The First Division was part of the Football League, until the 22 clubs that made it up resigned to form the separate Premier League, leaving the Football League with 70 clubs in three divisions. It was not a mere rebranding - the two leagues are totally separate entities. Go read the Leagues' respective websites: and  (or any decent football history book) for more. Qwghlm 13:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Record Premiership transfers
Are we sure the discussion of escalating transfer records in the Premiership (in the History section) wouldn't be better place in the Premier League article? It may already be there for all I know, but I really don't think it belongs here, as well. Binabik80 04:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed - it should be in the Premier League article (in a briefer/more readable format - leave out the individual records and just say how many times it got broken in the time period). British football transfer record would be the best place for the full details. Qwghlm 12:11, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Do we really have to keep repeating mcgregor's nationality
I think we only need to say he was scottish once, not twice. He lived most of his life near Birmingham and it was there that he started the league. I think Wikipedia is turning into a bit of a soundpiece for nationalists of all kind (I am not anti Scottish: I am anti Wikipedia turning into such a soap box, regardless of the country). How about "originally from Perthshire, Scotland".

Is "Scottish" a nationality, any more than "Bavarian" is? Grassynoel (talk) 17:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Definitions of goal difference/ average
The definitions were wrong, so I changed them. They were stated as:

goal difference (the difference between goals scored and goals allowed) rather than goal average (goals scored divided by goals allowed).

Correctly, they should be (and now are):

goal difference (the difference between goals scored and goals conceded) rather than goal average (goals scored divided by the number of games so far played). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.161.52 (talk) 21:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Media rights
I have started a media rights section. It needs more information, especially on situation between the start of the league and the ITV Digital contract. Jamie Mercer 12:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Did you all know that live Football League matches continued on ITV after the Premier League moved over to Sky from the 1992–93 season. The ITV franchised regions would have their own live sports programme showing a live match from their region. The games would normally kick-off Sundays at 3pm. Onshore (talk) 12:20, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no consensus. Incidentally, there seems to have been a three-way cut-and-paste move from English Football League via Football League to The Football League back in 30 March 2004; I'm going to try to merge the histories so that the revisions will at least all be in the same place. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 17:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The Football League → Football League — Though the definite article is included in the organisation's logo, it is not commonly used in regular speech. —- PeeJay 19:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Oppose - 'The' is an integral part of the title. Peanut4 (talk) 01:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Support per WP:NCD "If the definite or indefinite article would be capitalized in running text, then include it at the beginning of the page name. Otherwise, do not include it at the beginning of the page name." Not only is the article not capitalised in the running text of any of these news articles it's frequently not included at all.  Examples from the text of the article: "Reserve teams of Football League clubs usually play...", "...two League Two clubs lose their Football League status...", "Every original Football League club has at least..."  The article is not even used in these titles: List of former Football League clubs, Football League Cup, Football League 100 Legends, &c.  —   AjaxSmack   01:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose - "the" is an integral part of the title. "Football league" should be an article about football leagues in general, how the point system works, how promotion / relegation works, and difference with cups etc. "The Football league" is the accurate title. AjaxSmack's examples are irrelevant. The noun ("The Football league") is the particular league that the article is about and is preceded with a definite article ("the"). In all of the examples above Football league is used as an adjective, in wich case the definite article is dropped. Compare a Football league club (FL as an adjective) with clubs of the Football league (FL as a noun). You can't have a "the" in the first case in the same way as you have to have a "the" in the second case. Sebisthlm (talk) 11:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you just made my case. If the article can be dropped, it's not integral.  And when it is used, it's still not capitalised in running text.. —   AjaxSmack   07:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think you've read my post. If you have, since I'm guessing you're a native English speaker, as a Swede I find it a bit strange to have to lecture you about English grammar. The article the Football League is about the noun (the particular league), and requires a definitive article ("the"). When "Football League" is used as an adjective describing a different noun (in your example clubs or club) the definitive article is dropped. So, noun (which the article is about) = "the"; adjective (your examples and a lot of texts on the internet) = no "the". Once again: The Football League, but a Football League club. If the problem is the capitalization of "the", change The Football League to the Football League. Sebisthlm (talk) 11:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Support - not often used or capitalized in running text. Football league (common noun) does not have to be the same article as Football League (proper noun), and per Sebisthlm's example phrases, "the" is not integral to the title - "a Football League club", not "a The Football League club"; "clubs of the Football League", not "clubs of The Football League". Dekimasu よ! 06:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, read my posts. Sebisthlm (talk) 11:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is indeed that "the" need not be capitalized when this is used as a noun. WP:NCD says that "the" should not be part of the title in such cases. If we said "a story in The New York Times", it would be capitalized; that's why it's in the title there. We do not write "a club in The Football League "; in fact, the article is usually dropped entirely . Dekimasu よ! 04:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC) Final part withdrawn. Dekimasu よ!  12:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Huh? I don't know if that's a regional variation of English, but in UK English we definitely would not capitalise "the" in "The New York Times" in your example. -- Arwel (talk) 07:52, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Like The Times in the UK, it is capitalized in running text. Dekimasu よ! 10:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with you at all Dekimasu. "A club in Football League" sounds like broken English to me. Also, if you read WP:NCD carefully you'll see that the Football Association is explicitly exempted from the rule of thumb that the definite article should be omitted from the title, and I think there is no reason to treat the Football League differently. Sebisthlm (talk) 10:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Which is silly, because we aren't reliant upon official names for article titles (WP:UCN). Dekimasu よ! 10:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You're completely missing the point. The Football League is both the official and the common name, or do you suggest another common name than (the) Football League? Now, I don't see how I can put this any clearer than I already have; the organization is refered to as the Football League, shown for example by AjaxSmack's own examples of news articles, all refering to the organization itself as the Football League. The definite article is (always) dropped if "Football League" is used as an adjective (e.g. "the Football League clubs"), but never when refering to the organization itself. Note that if you say "the clubs of the Football League" (where FL is used as a noun) the definite article is required again. "A club in Football League" or "the clubs of Football League" are both broken English, and I'm a bit suprised that an English teacher such as yourself doesn't see that. As I've said before, it's true that the definitive article is usually not capitalized in running text, but moving The Football League to the Football League makes no sense since the "t" in the definitive article is the first letter of the title and should therefor be capitalized anyway. Respectfully, Sebisthlm (talk) 12:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Whether the "the" in the title would ideally be lowercase or not is beside the point. We base the inclusion of it on whether or not it is capitalized in running text. Thus we have United States or United Kingdom without "the"; the titles listed under "Official names" at WP:NCD all fulfill this requirement, with the exception of this page. Dekimasu よ! 12:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - per arguments advanced by Peanut4 and Sebisthlm. -- Arwel (talk) 00:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The definite article is part of the name Flawed reasoning for move. Jooler (talk) 01:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related page moves. – PeeJay 01:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment - are you going to follow the same procedure for The Football Association? The same principle should apply, as do the arguments as put forward by both User:Peanut4 and User:AjaxSmack on opposite sides above. - fchd (talk) 09:07, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It should apply to both, true. Dekimasu よ! 06:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This request has now been open for ten days, and should be closed as no consensus. -- Arwel (talk) 12:44, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree - Sebisthlm (talk) 15:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page histories merged
I've done a history merge to fix a pair of cut-and-paste moves (from English Football League via Football League to The Football League) done back in 30 March 2004. All the revisions of this article are now at The Football League, while the history of English Football League now only contains the revisions made after it was turned into a disambiguation page. As a side effect, the five earliest revisions of The Football League, from before the cut-and-paste move, have been deleted: they were all redirects, so this shouldn't be much of a loss. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 17:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Big Four
I've moved the following new section to the talk page until a citation can be provided. I think it would probably be better on the English football champions article if it is staying anyway:


 * With accompanied League titles and FA Cup wins, this is the basis for England's traditional "big four" traditonally consisting of Liverpool F.C., Manchester United F.C., Arsenal F.C. and Everton F.C. all these clubs sustaining large amounts of time and games played within England's top division, and attracting large crowds.

– Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 21:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd leave it totally out. Full of POV. Peanut4 (talk) 21:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That's what I thought. Dan1980 (talk | stalk) 21:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the current "big four" are Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea (not Everton) Also please note in the main article that, due to changes in the new Europa Cup, during the 2008/2009 season winning the League Cup will no longer gain entry to the Uefa Cup (in future the Europa Cup) AlbanScot (talk) 17:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * a) The wording is "traditional big four" - I don't know about that but there was a de facto Big Five at one point - Manchester United, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur, and b) it's only a name change, if you want to change it now, make the change yourself, it's easy enough and non-contraversial, so hopefully it should not be reverted. - fchd (talk) 17:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)