Talk:English football league system/Unknown

Leagues of unknown status
I thought I would create a running list of Saturday leagues that we know exist, but don't know where to place in the pyramid. --Balerion 17:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This is getting unwieldy, especially because I have a bunch to add, so I am going to sort them by region, i.e. probable Step 5 that it ultimately leads to.

Status has been determined

 * Birmingham AFA  - 'NOT in the Pyramid - see comment below -
 * Essex Business Houses Football League - I've added this league at level 15-18 as per thepyramid.info and the fact that they sent a team up last year - ChrisTheDude 07:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Perry Street League - NOT in the pyramid - see comment below - ChrisTheDude 07:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * ....also, should we add the West Riding League and West Yorkshire League to level 11? The former sent two clubs to the Northern Counties East League this season and seems to be level 11/Step 7 in all but name. --Balerion 18:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If those leagues aren't to be included, then the Leeds Red Triangle Football League and Yorkshire Old Boys League should be removed from the table, as they feed into those two leagues.... - ChrisTheDude 08:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the WRL and WYL should be included. The Surrey County Intermediate League (West), currently listed, is another example of a level 11 league that does not have Step 7 status.  Long-term the FA may be looking to merge the WRL and WYL, which is why neither currently have Step 7 status at the moment.  But I think we should list them at level 11.  As I said before, they do send clubs to higher levels.  --Balerion 13:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to be bold and add them in - there are a number of other examples of leagues which do appear in the table which don't actually have a formal promotion agreement but send teams up to a specific league occasionally. Talking to someone on the Bristol Downs League's message board it appears that that league has only sent two teams up in about the last ten years, and one of them hadn't even won the league, they just applied to a higher league because they thought they were good enough for it.  And we have the Downs League listed as being in the pyramid....  - ChrisTheDude 19:46, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Surrey South Eastern Combination - has two recent ex-Combined Counties League clubs - I've added this league in ChrisTheDude 09:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Teesside Football League - I've added this one as several clubs have progressed to the Wearside League recently. --Balerion 09:23, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Shropshire County League - Ellesmere Rangers F.C. apparently came out of this league, which would appear to make it a feeder to the West Midlands Regional League - ChrisTheDude 07:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added this one to levels 13 and 14 based on Ellesmere Rangers' promotion into the WMRL ChrisTheDude 13:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Furness Premier Football League
 * isn't this the same as the Furness Premier League, which already has an article....? ChrisTheDude 13:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes it is, my mistake. --Balerion 21:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * North & Mid-Herts Football League - seems to be a recent merger of the Mid Herts and North Herts Leagues - both on Mitoo through 05/06, then North & Mid appears in 06/07
 * The merger is confirmed by this page - I will start working on a N&MHL article when I get a moment..... ChrisTheDude 21:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * ...........and now I have :-) ChrisTheDude 22:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I Zingari Combination - still seems to be going this season even though some sources say it merged with the Liverpool Combination to form the new Liverpool Premier League - not listed on thepyramid.info
 * The I Zingari Combination is still going, it was the I Zingari LEAGUE that merged with the Liverpool County Combination. The Combination was mainly for reserve sides - three of the four "first teams" in the Combination have transferred to the new league - Leyfields, Liobians and SacreCouer FP. Mexoc are still in the IZ Combination. I haven't checked properly if any of the other IZ Combination teams are now "first teams" - it looks like Chatsworth may be. I assume the IZ League and the IZ Combination were linked in some way, if not indeed two parts of the same whole. - fchd 18:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Far North

 * Carlisle & District League - probably doesn't exist "Northbank joined the Westmorland League in 2003 following the demise of the Carlisle & District League."
 * Crook & District League
 * Cumberland County League - no website, but it's mentioned frequently in local newspapers online
 * Durham Alliance Football League - Coxhoe Athletic have joined the Wearside League from here
 * Eskvale & Cleveland League - Sunday?
 * I believe the correct name is the Eskdale & Cleveland League (although I found Google results for both spellings), in which case this article would appear to indicate that it's a Saturday league..... ChrisTheDude 10:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Northallerton & District League - Sunday?
 * Stokesley & District League
 * - Did not run for 2008-09, only 4 teams wished to continue. - fchd (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Teesdale League - Sunday
 * Wensleydale League
 * - no idea where any of these Wensleydale, Stokesley and Teesside would fit....ChrisTheDude 12:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Wensleydale, Stokesley and Teesside would all undoubtedly fit under the larger umbrella of the Northern League and below that, possibly the Wearside League. I suspect the first two feed the Teesside, although I have nothing to back that up. --Balerion 01:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just checked and Hartlepool FC moved from the Teeside League to the Wearside League in 2004.... ChrisTheDude 00:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Another data point, Richmond Mavericks of the Teeside League have an 'A' team in the Wensleydale League. Note that unlike the south, in the north an 'A' team often means 2nd team rather than 3rd. --Balerion 01:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Talbot Insurance Westmorland Football League
 * When Saturday Comes did a photo feature on this league in the latest issue - they say it is outside the pyramid and has been going 99 years. — sjorford++ 10:54, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Willington & District League - Sunday? I think you will find this is a Darts League!(Finnish Gas 09:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC))
 * Wearside Combination Football League - already has a (v. poor quality) WP article but nothing to indicate where (if anywhere) it fits into the pyramid.... ChrisTheDude 09:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

North West

 * Birkenhead & Wirral Leage - Cammell Laird F.C. played here once upon a time, not sure if this is the same Sat. league
 * Blackburn & District Football Combination (3 Divisions) - Official website
 * Burnley & District Football League - Note - now a Summer League (from 2010)
 * Chorley & District Alliance
 * East Lancashire League
 * Lancashire & Cheshire League Official site
 * North Lancashire & District League Official site —Preceding unsigned comment added by Balerion (talk • contribs) 06:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Preston & District League
 * South Wirral League - West Cheshire feeder?
 * Southport & District League (may or may not be a Saturday league)
 * I found this on this team's site: "We joined the league (the I Zingari League) this season (2002-3) after successfully navigating the Southport and District League - acheiving promotion but opting for the more challenging Liverpool set-up." This would suggest that the Southport League is indeed a Saturday league ChrisTheDude 09:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Stockport Football League - has a Sunday league counterpart, but it seems like there is also a Saturday league
 * Warrington & District League - both appear on the "affiliated leagues" link on this page:
 * Wigan & District League
 * Howe Bridge Mills FC won this league last year and have now jumped into Division Two (bizarrely) of the Lancashire Amateur League, so this league would appear to feed the LAL.... ChrisTheDude 10:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * One team changing league does not imply a feeder relationship. That word should be kept for arrangements where a formal process exists. To imply anything else is Original Research - fchd 11:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point, in this case if anything it's more likely the two leagues are parallel(ish), thinking about it..... ChrisTheDude 11:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

North East

 * Gainsborough & District Saturday League
 * Hope Valley Amateur League - Three Divisions, Premier, A and B. Contains reserve sides of Dronfield Town (Midland Regional Alliance) and also is current home of ex-Manchester League club Tintwistle Villa.
 * Lincolnshire Football League - southerly teams may opt for United Counties League (such Sleaford Town F.C.)
 * Matlock & District Saturday Football League
 * Selby District League
 * Scunthorpe & District Football League
 * Spen Valley and District Football League - created new page. - fchd 19:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Midlands

 * Burton & District FA - - appears to consist of 2 divisions (was 3 2007-08)
 * Lichfield City moved up from this league to the Midland Combination last summer, so it would presumably sit theoretically below that league..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Coventry Alliance Football League
 * Coventry District and Warks League
 * Herefordshire Football League
 * Article added for this league today. - fchd (talk) 10:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Kidderminster Saturday League - this page on the West Midlands Regional League website states that the Kidderminster League feeds the WMRL, so I will do something on the Kiddy League at some point soon.... ChrisTheDude 13:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Midland Amateur Alliance
 * Notts Amateur Alliance
 * Stratford Alliance
 * Telford Combination - might promote to the Shropshire County League ChrisTheDude 08:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * West Midlands Christian League
 * Wolverhampton & District Combination
 * Worcester & District League

South Midlands (UCL + SSML)

 * Aylesbury & District League
 * Grantham & District Saturday League
 * Luton District & South Beds Football League
 * Northants Alliance
 * South Beds Saturday League
 * West Herts League
 * Wycombe & District Football League

East Anglia

 * Great Yarmouth & District Football League
 * Halstead & District League
 * Lowestoft & District League
 * North West Norfolk League
 * North East Norfolk League  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Balerion (talk • contribs) 05:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Norwich and District Business Houses League

Essex, Middlesex, Herts

 * Bishops Stortford, Stansted & District League
 * London Commercial League and Hounslow and District League  - thepyramid.info has both of these at level 15 feeding into the Middx County League - can anyone confirm?
 * I've had a quick look through the tables for the London Commercial League since 1999 and the Hounslow League since 2001 and neither league seems to have sent anybody up to a higher league in all that time, so do they qualify to be in the pyramid? Or are they new feeder leagues to the  Middx League with effect from this season.....? ChrisTheDude 07:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

South East

 * Ashford & District Saturday Football League
 * Bromley & District League - has some KCL reserve sides, also has a reserve side of a South London Football Alliance Div 2 club...however that club also has an 'A' side in the SLFA Div 4
 * Canterbury & District League
 * Dartford & District League
 * Deal & District League
 * Gravesend Football League - Three Divisions, has one reserve side of a Kent County League club
 * Kingston & District Football League
 * Redhill & District Saturday Football League
 * Maidstone & District League
 * Rochester & District League
 * Sevenoaks & District League
 * South London Football Alliance - some Kent County League clubs have reserve sides in this league even though the KCL has a few reserve divisions
 * Thanet & District Football League
 * Tonbridge & District League
 * West End (London) AFA
 * Wimbledon & District League
 * Of the above, the Bromley & District, Canterbury & District, Maidstone & District and Rochester & District Leagues and the South London Alliance all promoted teams to the KCL in 2008 -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Hellenic League area

 * Salisbury and District League

South West

 * Kingsley League (no official website) Would feed into the lower divisions of either the North Devon Football League or the Duchy League, but with no official link to either. - fchd 17:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Note, with the admission of Bideford reserves and Merton from the Kingsley League to the N Devon League, the N Devon statement regards the Kingsley League as the same standard as their Division One. - fchd (talk) 10:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Swindon & District League
 * Trowbridge & District League

Birmingham AFA
I have had an e-mail from the secretary of this league who states:

"Unfortunately no, we are not part of the pyramid. We are a "stand alone" League or Association run by the member clubs. Our clubs can independently if they wish (and some have) apply if they think they are good enough to join the Comb or West Mids League etc but there is not set "right" even if they win our Premier."

So does that make them a "theoretical" level 13 (or thereabouts) league.....?

(He does go on to note that they were formed in 1908 and are one of the longest running amateur leagues in the UK, so they might be worth an article anyway if I get some spare time....) ChrisTheDude 07:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the Midland Football Combination extends a level further than the West Mids, so it would be a theoretical level 13 or 14, depending on which league. Sadly I think these theoretical ties are the norm for most leagues below step 7, with the exception of a few counties who have formed fairly ship-shape county pyramids.  The Midlands region is a bit untidy at the moment - the Leics Senior League is Step 7, but effectively level 10.  So does that make its feeders (Leics City League, Leicester & Dist, North Leics, Leics Comb) level 12 or level 13?  We probably won't have a definitive answer until the FA finishes their reorganization of Step 7, which won't happen until they reorganize Step 5/6, which won't happen until they finish working on Step 4.  Yikes. --Balerion 07:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * They should get us in, we'd sort it out for them! :-) ChrisTheDude 07:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Perry Street League
(cross-posted from the article's own talk page) What league does this league feed into and what evidence is there that it sits at level 14? It's nowhere to be found on thepyramid.info..... ChrisTheDude 12:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to an email sent to me on November 3, 2005 by Bob Brunt, secretary of said league: "1. The League does not promote into the Somerset County League 2. There are no feed between any leagues in to the Perry Street League". So, the league isn't at level 14 0- it's a standalone league. Presumabnly the level 14 was based on an old information. Tompw 14:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Cheers for the update, Tom, I figured if anyone knew it would be you :-) I'll take it off the table on the article then, and add it to the list above of "non-pyramid" leagues ChrisTheDude 14:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)