Talk:English language/Archive 9

Can you please list [in the infobox] all the countries where English is spoken?
Have you had a look at the Russian, German, Spanish wiki articles? No other language page makes it look as though their language is spoken in fewer places than it is. In fact they tend to over estimate the use of their languages. WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE WHICH COUNTRIES DESERVE TO BE INCLUDED AND WHICH ONES DON'T. ALL SHOULD BE LISTED.

I KNOW THE LIST IS LONG BUT FACE THE FACTS. YOu can't shorten it just because you think to many people speak English. Please refrain from being bias. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.74.218 (talk • contribs)


 * The entire list is in the article. Set your CAPS LOCK off and read it. Wahkeenah 04:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

It should be in the INFOBOX. Have a look at the Spanish, German and Russian infoboxes. We have no right to say that a country does not belong in the infobox just because the list will be too long.
 * An infobox that's as long as the article is silly. Wahkeenah 06:54, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Not if it means that it's accurate. How can you decide which countries should be listed and which ones shouldn't. Is Tonga less important than Papua New Guinea? Or is the USA sooo much more important than St. Helena???

The Infobox should contain all the countries where English is spoken because some people that don't have a lot of time may just look at the infobox instead of reading the entire article and get the wrong impression. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.28.74.218 (talk • contribs) 07:00, 13 May 2007


 * The article looks plain silly this way. In my not so humble opinion, such an exhaustive list will make the casual reader turn away rather than read the whole thing. The infobox is for a quick summary, not comprehensive coverage. For people wanting to take just a quick look, the included colored map works better than a long list of fine print. &mdash;Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 07:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Since when is wikipedia about looks. You can't leave out facts just because you think they spoil the way an article looks. This is an encyclopeida not an art gallery. It's not up to you to decide which countries should go in the infobox and which countries shouldn't based on looks! Using your logic I'd spell a word like different as difrent cos a reader may not want to read further if he or she encounters such a long word.

When someone sees all the countries listed in the infobox they are not going to get scared and run away because there are too many countries. Instead they will get the right impression about how widespread English is. Please stop making wikipedia so US bias. English is not only spoken in the USA.


 * There are native English speakers in every country in the world. The line has to be drawn somewhere, or the list is meaningless. Do not use upper-case throughout your text; it's the equivalent of shouting, and many contributors will find it unpleasant. Tony 09:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Infoboxes are only supposed to provide brief summaries. Any addition of 2 kb of text to one is probably misguided. --Stemonitis 10:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That's much better, but Pakistan is meant to be out of alpha-order? Tony 21:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Fixed. -- Avenue 04:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I am well aware that "every" country in the world has at least one native speaker of English. That's why I only listed the countries where it's official! I didn't include countries like Poland, Italy, Japan and so on. The infobox is too bias the way it is now. Therefore, I propose we change it to list all the countries where English is an official language. If you have a problem with this you could state the number of countries that have English as an official language and then list countries where English is the primary language. So for example, English is an official language in 90??? countries around the world. It is the major spoken language in Australia, Great Britain etc. I agree that the infobox should be a brief summary. However, a proper summary includes all the key facts. English is a global language so you can't just restrict it to the US, UK, Australia and Canada as this is bias and completely misrepresents the status of English.


 * Just reverted the changes. More people have spoken against this change than for it, and the relevant info on all the languages is in the article. And it would be great if you could sign your comments: it helps to see who's saying what. Drmaik 13:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That IP address user continually puts forth the false charge that facts are being hidden. That, along with continually refusing to sign posts, suggests that his primary goal is disruption. Wahkeenah 13:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

My primary goal is not disruption. If you left all the countries were English is spoken in the infobox I would never ever edit the article again. The only problem I have with the article is that the infobox is anglo-centric. Wake up. There are more non-native speakers of English than native speakers so this should be indicated in the infobox. If you list the USA where 10% of the population speaks Spanish then you've got to list countries like Nigeria, Pakistan etc.
 * Then why do you continually refuse to sign your posts when asked to do so? Wahkeenah 13:42, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Who is inserting this ridiculous number of countries into the infobox? Please desist. Tony 13:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, here's a simple solution: Just link to a template that lists all the known countries in the world. Then the infobox can be larger than the article, which is the apparent goal of the IP address that keeps raising the "bias" and "hiding information" red herrings. Wahkeenah 14:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Since when did I put all the known countries in the world in the infobox? Do you even know how many countries there are? I only put countries that have English as an official language in the infobox and trust me not EVERY single country has English as an official language. The number is not ridiculous as it reflects the status of English is the world today. You can't just leave out stuff because you think it makes the list too long. It would be as if an article on American presidents left out some of them becuase the list would be too long if they were all included. No other article is as bad as this one. Please look at Spanish language, Russian language and German language to see what I mean. Also even if you were to list all the countries in the world in the infobox the infobox would still not be longer than the article. I suggest you learn how to count.
 * Show me a summary infobox that lists all 40-odd Presidents. Wahkeenah 23:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * (Referring to the item below) - Kudos. That just about covers it. But you're missing a few: Lower Slobovia, Moosylvania, and Elbonia, for starters. Wahkeenah 23:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The infobox on the right-hand side of the article is inaccurate and misleading. Where it says "Official language of:" two countries which clearly have English as their official language that have been missed are Australia and New Zealand. Why are these not included? There can be no ambiguity as to whether or not they are English-speaking nations, because they clearly are. It seems the infobox is not even close to being accurate. Sure, these countries are mentioned inside the article itself as English-speaking nations, but the infobox should still include these. Readers shouldn't have to sift through the article to find the information; the infobox needs to be a lot more accurate, or should otherwise be removed. It is almost lazy not to include all the nations, especially ones so unambiguous as Australia and New Zealand. Loki at6 05:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no ambiguity about Australia, New Zealand, and the United States being predominantly English-speaking nations. The question is whether they can be said to have English as an official language. Until recently we included them in the list with a note that it was a de facto official language there, but Angr has removed them on the grounds that "de facto official" is a contradiction in terms. Personally, I'm beginning to wonder whether the whole "official language of" list should be removed in this article's infobox. It takes up far too much space, at least in its current form. I wouldn't object to the last version without the flags, though. -- Avenue 10:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Below are all the countries in the world. As you will see this list is much longer than the one I put in the infobox. A Abkhazia – Republic of Abkhazia[4] Afghanistan – Islamic Republic of Afghanistan Akrotiri and Dhekelia – Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (UK overseas territory) Åland – Åland Islands (Autonomous province of Finland) Albania – Republic of Albania Algeria – People's Democratic Republic of Algeria American Samoa – Territory of American Samoa (US territory) Andorra – Principality of Andorra Angola – Republic of Angola Anguilla (UK overseas territory) Antigua and Barbuda Argentina – Argentine Republic[10] Armenia – Republic of Armenia Aruba (Self-governing country in the Kingdom of the Netherlands) Ascension Island (Dependency of the UK overseas territory of Saint Helena) Australia – Commonwealth of Australia Austria – Republic of Austria Azerbaijan – Republic of Azerbaijan[11]

B Bahamas, The – Commonwealth of The Bahamas Bahrain – Kingdom of Bahrain Bangladesh – People's Republic of Bangladesh Barbados Belarus – Republic of Belarus Belgium – Kingdom of Belgium Belize Benin – Republic of Benin Bermuda (UK overseas territory) Bhutan – Kingdom of Bhutan Bolivia – Republic of Bolivia Bosnia and Herzegovina[12] Botswana – Republic of Botswana Brazil – Federative Republic of Brazil Brunei – Negara Brunei Darussalam Bulgaria – Republic of Bulgaria Burkina Faso See Myanmar for Burma[1] Burundi – Republic of Burundi

C Cambodia – Kingdom of Cambodia Cameroon – Republic of Cameroon Canada[13] Cape Verde – Republic of Cape Verde Cayman Islands (UK overseas territory) Central African Republic[14] Chad – Republic of Chad Chile – Republic of Chile China, People's Republic of – People's Republic of China[15] China, Republic of – Republic of China [16] Christmas Island – Territory of Christmas Island (Australian overseas territory) Cocos (Keeling) Islands – Territory of Cocos (Keeling) Islands (Australian overseas territory) Colombia – Republic of Colombia Comoros – Union of the Comoros Congo, Democratic Republic of – Democratic Republic of the Congo[17] Congo, Republic of – Republic of the Congo[18] Cook Islands (Associated state of New Zealand) Costa Rica – Republic of Costa Rica Côte d'Ivoire – Republic of Côte d'Ivoire[1] Croatia – Republic of Croatia Cuba – Republic of Cuba Cyprus – Republic of Cyprus[19] Czech Republic[20]

D Denmark – Kingdom of Denmark See Akrotiri and Dhekelia for Dhekelia Djibouti – Republic of Djibouti Dominica – Commonwealth of Dominica Dominican Republic

E See Timor-Leste for East Timor[1] Ecuador – Republic of Ecuador Egypt – Arab Republic of Egypt El Salvador – Republic of El Salvador Equatorial Guinea – Republic of Equatorial Guinea Eritrea – State of Eritrea Estonia – Republic of Estonia Ethiopia – Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia

F Falkland Islands (UK overseas territory)[21] Faroe Islands (Self-governing country in the Kingdom of Denmark) Fiji – Republic of the Fiji Islands Finland – Republic of Finland France – French Republic French Polynesia (French overseas collectivity)

G Gabon – Gabonese Republic Gambia, The – Republic of The Gambia Georgia[22] Germany – Federal Republic of Germany Ghana – Republic of Ghana Gibraltar (UK overseas territory) Greece – Hellenic Republic Greenland (Self-governing country in the Kingdom of Denmark) Grenada Guam – Territory of Guam (US organized territory) Guatemala – Republic of Guatemala Guernsey – Bailiwick of Guernsey (British Crown dependency)[23] Guinea – Republic of Guinea Guinea-Bissau – Republic of Guinea-Bissau Guyana – Co-operative Republic of Guyana

H Haiti – Republic of Haiti Honduras – Republic of Honduras Hong Kong – Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China (Area of special sovereignty)[24] Hungary – Republic of Hungary

I Iceland – Republic of Iceland India – Republic of India Indonesia – Republic of Indonesia Iran – Islamic Republic of Iran Iraq – Republic of Iraq Ireland[25] Isle of Man (British Crown dependency) Israel – State of Israel Italy – Italian Republic See Côte d'Ivoire for Ivory Coast[1]

J Jamaica Japan Jersey – Bailiwick of Jersey (British Crown dependency) Jordan – Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan

K Kazakhstan – Republic of Kazakhstan Kenya – Republic of Kenya Kiribati – Republic of Kiribati Korea, Democratic People's Republic of – Democratic People's Republic of Korea[26] Korea, Republic of – Republic of Korea[27] Kosovo – Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohia (Autonomous province of Serbia under UN protectorate)[28] Kuwait – State of Kuwait Kyrgyzstan – Kyrgyz Republic[29]

L Laos – Lao People's Democratic Republic Latvia – Republic of Latvia Lebanon – Republic of Lebanon Lesotho – Kingdom of Lesotho Liberia – Republic of Liberia Libya – Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya Liechtenstein – Principality of Liechtenstein Lithuania – Republic of Lithuania Luxembourg – Grand Duchy of Luxembourg

M Macao – Macao Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China (Area of special sovereignty)[1][30] Macedonia, Republic of – Republic of Macedonia[31] Madagascar – Republic of Madagascar Malawi – Republic of Malawi Malaysia Maldives – Republic of Maldives Mali – Republic of Mali Malta – Republic of Malta Marshall Islands – Republic of the Marshall Islands Mauritania – Islamic Republic of Mauritania Mauritius – Republic of Mauritius Mayotte – Departmental Collectivity of Mayotte (French overseas collectivity) Mexico – United Mexican States Micronesia – Federated States of Micronesia Moldova – Republic of Moldova[32] Monaco – Principality of Monaco Mongolia Montenegro – Republic of Montenegro Montserrat (UK overseas territory) Morocco – Kingdom of Morocco[33] Mozambique – Republic of Mozambique Myanmar – Union of Myanmar (also rendered as Burma[1])

N Nagorno-Karabakh – Nagorno-Karabakh Republic[5] Namibia – Republic of Namibia Nauru – Republic of Nauru Nepal – State of Nepal Netherlands – Kingdom of the Netherlands[34] Netherlands Antilles (Self-governing country in the Kingdom of the Netherlands) New Caledonia – Territory of New Caledonia and Dependencies (French community sui generis) New Zealand Nicaragua – Republic of Nicaragua Niger – Republic of Niger Nigeria – Federal Republic of Nigeria Niue (Associated state of New Zealand) See Korea, Democratic People's Republic of for North Korea Norfolk Island – Territory of Norfolk Island (Australian overseas territory) Northern Cyprus – Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus[3] Northern Mariana Islands – Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (US commonwealth) Norway – Kingdom of Norway

O Oman – Sultanate of Oman

P Pakistan – Islamic Republic of Pakistan Palau – Republic of Palau Palestine – State of Palestine[35] Panama – Republic of Panama Papua New Guinea – Independent State of Papua New Guinea Paraguay – Republic of Paraguay Peru – Republic of Peru Philippines – Republic of the Philippines Pitcairn Islands – Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie, and Oeno Islands (UK overseas territory) Poland – Republic of Poland Portugal – Portuguese Republic Pridnestrovie – Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic (also rendered as Transnistria[1])[6] Puerto Rico – Commonwealth of Puerto Rico (US commonwealth)

Q Qatar – State of Qatar

R Romania Russia – Russian Federation Rwanda – Republic of Rwanda

S Saint Barthelemy – Collectivity of Saint Barthelemy (French overseas collectivity) Saint Helena (UK overseas territory) Saint Kitts and Nevis – Federation of Saint Christopher and Nevis Saint Lucia Saint Martin – Collectivity of Saint Martin (French overseas collectivity) Saint Pierre and Miquelon – Territorial Collectivity of Saint Pierre and Miquelon (French overseas collectvity) Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Samoa – Independent State of Samoa San Marino – Most Serene Republic of San Marino São Tomé and Príncipe – Democratic Republic of São Tomé and Príncipe Saudi Arabia – Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Senegal – Republic of Senegal Serbia – Republic of Serbia[36] Seychelles – Republic of Seychelles Sierra Leone – Republic of Sierra Leone Singapore – Republic of Singapore Slovakia – Slovak Republic Slovenia – Republic of Slovenia Solomon Islands Somalia[37] Somaliland – Republic of Somaliland[7] South Africa – Republic of South Africa See Korea, Republic of for South Korea South Ossetia – Republic of South Ossetia[8] Spain – Kingdom of Spain Sri Lanka – Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka Sudan – Republic of the Sudan Suriname – Republic of Suriname Svalbard (Territory of Norway)[38] Swaziland – Kingdom of Swaziland Sweden – Kingdom of Sweden Switzerland – Swiss Confederation Syria – Syrian Arab Republic

T See China, Republic of for the country that is commonly referred to as Taiwan Tajikistan – Republic of Tajikistan Tanzania – United Republic of Tanzania Thailand – Kingdom of Thailand Timor-Leste – Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste (also rendered as East Timor[1]) Togo – Togolese Republic Tokelau (Overseas territory of New Zealand) Tonga – Kingdom of Tonga See Pridnestrovie for Transnistria[1] Trinidad and Tobago – Republic of Trinidad and Tobago Tristan da Cunha (Dependency of the UK overseas territory of Saint Helena) Tunisia – Tunisian Republic Turkey – Republic of Turkey Turkmenistan Turks and Caicos Islands (UK overseas territory) Tuvalu

U Uganda – Republic of Uganda Ukraine United Arab Emirates United Kingdom – United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland United States – United States of America Uruguay – Eastern Republic of Uruguay Uzbekistan – Republic of Uzbekistan

V Vanuatu – Republic of Vanuatu Vatican City – State of the Vatican City[39] Venezuela – Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela Vietnam – Socialist Republic of Vietnam Virgin Islands, British – British Virgin Islands (UK overseas territory) Virgin Islands, United States – United States Virgin Islands (US organized territory)

W Wallis and Futuna – Territory of Wallis and Futuna Islands (French overseas collectivity) Western Sahara – Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic[40]

Y Yemen – Republic of Yemen

Z Zambia – Republic of Zambia Zimbabwe – Republic of Zimbabwe


 * Now that was completely unnecessary. Mr. 210.49.189.114, you have no argument that makes sense, please desist this silliness. Infoboxes exist as terse summaries of the below article; not as replications. IDX 15:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Since most of the people above seem to be such experts in the field of summaries I wonder how they would summarise the planets of the solar system. Would they just list earth, mars and neptune and leave out the other planets???


 * I'm tiring of this ridiculous push to expand the infobox so that it's humungous. I'd sooner get rid of the infobox altogether (a lot of people hate them because they force information into strict categories, and clutter up the top of articles). Let's have no more of this push. Tony 04:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The list above is nonsense. I only added it to demonstrate that a list of countries where English is an official language is much shorter than a list that includes every country of the world in it. Many people accused me of wanting to put every known country in the infobox so I added the above list to show them how many countries there really are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.35.34 (talk • contribs)

.. What is the U.S. not doing in the box listing the Anglophone countries?
 * It's a list of countries where English is official. English is not official in the U.S. —Angr 15:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Neither is it for the United Kingdom, but it's there. And it'd be madness to remove where the language originated. But it's a bit.. lame to leave out the country with the most native English speakers.
 * Okay, I removed the UK from the list. If we start adding countries where it's not official to the list, pretty soon it will just be a list of every country in the world. —Angr 04:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Now the list has lost most of its meaning. It's ridiculous. Let's remove it altogether, along with the rest of the infobox. Tony 09:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, now the list is precisely what it says it is: a list of countries where English is an official language. The fact that the two countries that together account for over 80% of all native English speakers are absent from the list is perhaps amusing, but not really relevant. It's not as if they aren't mentioned in the article. As for the infobox, it's part of WikiProject Languages's template of how language articles are supposed to look. Language Infoboxes include information on where (if anywhere) the language is official, and this is no exception. Thanks to the clever idea of making the list hideable, the infobox is no longer overlong. —Angr 17:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ranking
The ranking is off, here are the Encarta and Ethnologue estimates: Ethnologue
 * 1) Mandarin
 * 2) Spanish
 * 3) English

Encarta I'll correct it from saying "2-4" to "3-4" --Android Mouse
 * 1) Mandarin not ranked by them but all recent estimates agree it is by far 1
 * 2) Arabic
 * 3) Hindi
 * 4) English

But with en dashes, PLEASE. Tony 01:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Can we update the map please
English recently became one of the official languages of Madagascar.

Getting rid of the elephant
I propose that this ugly, useless infobox be removed altogether. Please see the debate [Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Image_V_InfoBox here]. The MoS, in fact, disallows infoboxes that have no pic in the top-right position, it appears. The problem that these ugly infoboxes uncomfortably compartmentalise information, most or all of which is already in the text, is a sleeping giant. It's been brought to a head by the silliness on this page concerning the naming of a cast of thousands within it. I propose to remove it in the next week. Tony 23:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've attempted to improve the infobox by putting all the countries into a drop-down list, which is hidden by default, so it won't look as intrusive as before.(RexImperium 08:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC))
 * It's better, but most people will click the big red "68 countries", which leads to the edit box. I did. Tony 11:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The redlink is now fixed, although this now reveals the inconsistency between our 68 country list and the 74 countries shown in List of countries where English is an official language. -- Avenue 12:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If we make a list of the countries that are missing, it should be easy to add them. I've found this list of flag templates []. (RexImperium 15:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC))

Getting tired of the overlinking
Who, I ask you, is going to click on the links to nations—"England", "the United States" and the like, especially right at the top where we're trying to paint the big picture. I find country links to big, universally known countries among our readership futile. They spatter blue all over the opening, making it harder to read and visually messy. I intend to delink these items, including Pakistan and India, soon. There's a good case for linking in the hidden infobox list of countries, and further down where countries are likely to be less well-known. When you go to country articles, the information is not focused on their use of English, either. Tony 01:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It is standard practice per the Manual of Style to link articles at their first occurrence, including in the lead. Removing the links is just fighting a losing battle anyway; in less than a week, someone who has never even read your comments on the talk page will come a long and put them back in. —Angr 08:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's rubbish. Where does the MoS say that? And your argument that someone will relink them is made of straw. I'll simply revert. Tony 09:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It must have been in an older version; I can't find it now. But Only make links that are relevant to the context does say geographic place names should generally be linked. And of course you can revert, but you will quickly run up against 3RR if you do. —Angr 09:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No I won't, because I'll be insisting that whoever it is (I hope it won't be you) justify why on earth those links help the reader. Dead right it's nowhere in the MoS. And if it's this you're referring to:

[In general, do link] Geographic place names, since many places have similar names, and many readers may be from a distant place. Link to the most specific available article, or create a stub or redirect if the place deserves a new article (check similar nearby places for naming conventions and category tags).


 * the logic is bizarre ("since"); this clearly needs redrafting and is of little or no relevance to the slavish linking of country names. Tony 10:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Since the new edits (removing the links) are yours, you're the one who needs to explain why you think England, the United States, etc., are not relevant to the English language. Also, it's inconsistent to remove the links only from the opening paragraph. If you really think the articles about the countries where English is spoken are irrelevant, you should remove the links from the entire article. —Angr 10:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll remove the others. It's not that England, Canada and the US are irrelevant to the language; it's that those articles aren't focused on the language. I can't find a single piece of information in those country articles that's useful. Let me know if there a scrap of info there that's not in the "English language" article but that helps the reader of it to understand that topic. Tony 11:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If that's going to be your criterion, there are much better links to remove than those. At least the country articles mention the fact that English is spoken there; other articles linked to from the lead (International organization, International language (which is a dismabig page anyway and so really shouldn't be linked to), World War II) don't mention the English language at all. —Angr 11:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy removing these dodgy links, wouldn't you? We owe it to our readers not to dilute the really valuable links. And the article is, frankly, slightly harder to read and significantly less attractive visually with these useless artefacts. But in the first instance, I'm keen to remove the names of countries (Netherlands? Hello?). Tony 11:58, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm starting to wonder what links, if any, you consider valuable at all. What are your criteria? —Angr 12:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, ultimately it requires the writers' judgement, and individuals may disagree on exactly where the boundary should be. But that boundary is certainly way too liberal at the moment. Dictionary terms, for example (but keep the piped "varieties"—that's a good example of useful linking), and most of the country names. (Oh, look at those two hideous blue paragraphs below the pie graph. It's a joke.) I think that the current links in the first para are OK except for "international organisations". WW II should go. So should London. United Nations and IOC maybe should go, and so should "colonies", "dependent territories" and US federal government (it's a bad sentence, anyway). And more, especially the repetitions. Tony 12:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant, what are your criteria? Why is the link to variety (linguistics) okay? I just found that the "History" section had three links to Old English language; I removed two of them, but maybe you think I should have removed them all. So far, I just don't understand your reasoning. You just seem to have some sort of grudge against links to countries. —Angr 12:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the guideline you two are looking for is Build the web. Cheers! &mdash;Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 14:57, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't looking for that kind of bumkum. But thanks for pointing out this page that—somehow—has elbowed its way into guideline status, while self-proclaiming its contradiction with other guidelines. It appears to be the product of "allwiki-ists", people who want to link every single word. I'll be making representations there and elsewhere about the folly of that page. Tony 23:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Number of speakers
Why is that English only includes native speakers as speakers of English while other langauges just treat the entire population of a country as the number of speakers. I think that the entire US population should be treated as English speaking as this estimate is probably closer to the number of people that speak English in the US than the number of native speakers is. Today more people speak English as a second language than a first. This fact should be reflected in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.35.34 (talk • contribs)

Madagascar
Why hasn't madagascar been coloured in yet? The country adopted English as the third official language in 2007.
 * I just updated the image. —Angr 14:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Basic sound-letter correspondence
What's with the line in the chart that equates IPA 'x' with "kh, ch, h (in foreign words)"?? The last column says "occasionally ch loch (Scottish English, Welsh English)", which I suppose is true. But I have *never* heard a voiceless velar fricative in other dialects of English, at least not unless someone was trying to clear their throat. Maybe in Middle English, but I can't remember that far back...

I would edit that line out, but I'm thinking there must be some kind of history to the decision to say that (but I can't imagine what it would be). Mcswell 03:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In the U.S. at least, some people use [x] in Yiddish/Hebrew words like chutzpah and Hanukkah. And even if it did occur only in Welsh English and Scottish English, that's still reason enough to keep it. Sure, it's a pretty marginal phoneme of Modern English, but since there are native English speakers (even monolingual English speakers) who use it, even if only in a few words, it should stay. —Angr 04:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's also used in the Liverpool dialect. TharkunColl 15:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Missing English speaking regions
The map seems to be missing Singapore and Brunei and Malta and Gibraltar. I know these areas are small but people still speak English in these areas and it is an official language of these areas so shouldn't a small square or dot at least acknowledge that they exist? What's your opinion? Hong Kong may also be one of these missing areas. What do you think?

When you enlarge the map it looks as though Singapore might be there but the dot is too small. What's your opinion?

Where's Brunei?
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560661/Brunei.html

http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=ENG

http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_country.asp?name=Brunei

According to some source English is an official language of Brunei. All sources state that there are some native speakers of English in Brunei and that the government uses it for official purposes. What do you think?


 * also the more recent ethnologue entry lists English as an official language in Brunei. In it goes. Drmaik 06:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Is Singlish a creole?
The article Singlish describes it as a creole; whether that's accurate or not is for someone else to decide. But the main reason I left Singapore on the list while removing countries where creoles rather than English are the dominant language is that the Singapore source cited identifies the language in question as English, while the sources cited for the others said things like "this is the number of speakers of the local creole", or "this number includes speakers of creole", etc. —Angr 06:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * well put, rather better put than my edit summary. Drmaik 07:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Singlish is not a creole. I recently wrote a thesis on Singaporean English. The official language of Singapore is Standard English which is used in Education and other areas. To be a creole singlish would have had to have developed from a pidgin as a creole is basically a pidgin that has acquired native speakers. So, for example when people come into contact with another group of people that speaks another language they use a mixed simplified language which is called a pidgin. Over time children grow up speaking this pidgin as their first language and voila you have yourself a creole. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.107.35.34 (talk • contribs).


 * I don't see much benefit in discussing whether Singlish is a creole here; our Singlish article says it is, so any concerns on that front should probably be addressed there. What we need to decide here is whether it is sensible to include Singapore in our native speaker table while excluding other countries such as Jamaica. These two countries both have a sizable number of people natively speaking something that I understand is not easily intelligible to an average British or American English speaker (albeit in a continuum ranging through to a more intelligible "standard" variety), so I think that including either of them without any caveat could be misleading. -- Avenue 11:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * A major issue here is sourcing. Ethnologue has Jamaicans not being mother-tongue English, but look under Singapore and there are 227,000 speakers listed for English. Encarta lists Singapore as a place where English is spoken, but not Jamaica (but then it also includes Ecuador and Denmark!) (also, that lists seems to be partly derived from the Ethnologue). And as Singlish says, an awful lot of people speak pretty much standard there (inc. my Singaporean niece). It would be nice to find some richer sources, but on these issues what counts as English is generally up to the opinion of the author. But some caveat would not be inappropriate. Drmaik 11:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree any caveat shouldn't be overstated. The Singaporeans I know speak perfectly "good English" to me (although I could say the same about Jamaicans). For sourcing a caveat, would one of these quotes be useful? David Crystal: "Despite its name, Singlish is not easily analysed as a 'dialect' of English, for its admixture of Chinese and English makes it unintelligible to those from a monolingual background." Minister's speech launching 'Speak Good English' movement: "... when English-speaking foreigners come to work in Singapore, initially many have difficulty trying to understand us." -- Avenue 14:32, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"Remove superfluous parenthetical remark"
Think before you edit. That "superfluous" remark has the effect of indicating that most spread of the English Language is ultimately down to the British Empire. I don't know if you have some other motive for removing the remark, but the USA is an offshoot of the British empire. It separated, and expanded. Therefore, offshoot. I'll wait for your response,if there is none, I'll re-insert the remark.
 * The remark seemed quite of context and frankly irrelevant. The paragraph is about the spread of English around the world; at the time the U.S. gained independence, the British Empire had barely begun; it consisted pretty much of just Britain, Ireland, and Canada. The British Empire didn't really start spreading English around the globe until after the U.S. was already independent. And a parenthetical remark about the U.S. being "an offshoot of the British Empire" in the middle of a sentence discussing the period after World War II is just completely out of place. —Angr 19:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It emphasises the point that the US was a direct consequence of the British Empire, and that the english language's dominance is therefore caused by the British Empire. And the Empire had started spreading english around the globe, when they founded the states. That's why the USA's inhabitants speak the language. A direct consequence of the Empire's spreading the language around the world. Noted at the first mention of the USA during the explanation of the spread of the language. Quantum Burrito 20:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the removal: Whatever truth there may be in saying the USA is an offshoot of the British empire, it is irrelevant in this article. --teb728 21:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Minor mistakes
There is a minor mistake in the subdivision of "Constructed varieties of English", in the following sentence: "Some English schools in Asia teach it as an practical subset of English for use by beginners." Unless, that is, the pre-vowel form of the indefinite article is concept here))Timeastor 18:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

And a bit further down: "Euro-English (also EuroEnglish or Euro-English) terms are English translations.." If I understand correctly, the second variation of spelling given in parenthesis is exactly the same as the one outside, the one that starts the sentence. So there is probably no need to repeat it in parenthesis.Timeastor 18:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Very good resource to add as external link
editprotected Just wanted to suggest the following website which is a great resource for learning about or just learning the English Language:

http://www.usingenglish.com/ (Resources for English as a Second Language)

(Domineaux 01:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC))


 * User's first edit. "Very good resource" and "great resource" suggest attempts at promotion. There are quite enough external links in the article already; unless it's a citation, we don't need any more – Gurch 10:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Why down play the use of English?
English is an official language of the Olympic games, the european union, aviation, the united nations...

Why are some of these missing from the article. Any other language page such as Spanish would be eager to list them.


 * I don't object to any of them being added, but I guess it's because English is not exclusive. To take the European Union, English is just one of 23 official languages. JdeJ 21:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

?
Regarding the use of 'cockney' as an example of a dialect of British English - A far more suitable example would be the northern accents typified in Lancashire and Yorkshire. They are more widespread and differ far more from standard UK English than Cockney does, having roots in the colonisation of England during the Danelaw period.

Obviously the Westcountry accent would be another example to use. I merely find that using the most commonly known dialect of standard UK English (cockney) despite it not being the most widely spoken regional dialect does nothing but promote ignorance of the diversity of UK dialects.

Thanks! Adam