Talk:English muffin/Archive 1

Suggested re-title
As there is clearly so much conjecture over the name, stretching back on Wikipedia alone almost a decade, surely the main article needs re-titling. If there is a broad agreement that the traditional Anglocentric bread muffin is a similar product to the American "English muffin", then perhaps "Muffin (English)" would be a fair title? It removes an irksome branding and allows for variants on a general recipe. Guv2006 (talk) 08:56, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * (1) Most talk page messages get added at the end. You might want to consider moving this. (2) There is not necessarily agreement on the similarity that you claim, but I'd still be happy to see discussion continue on the title. DBaK (talk) 21:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

English Muffins in America
I have to really question this. Cooked in a griddle? As an American I have never encountered this or even heard of it. English Muffins are known as a bread product from Thomas' Bakery (http://thomas.gwbakeries.com/) and are split with a fork at home then prepared in a toaster. I would correct it myself, but I'm not clear if Thomas' uses some kind of skillet-like step during their creation before packaging and placing them on grocery store shelves. In their untoasted form they appear like a wide, barely cooked, biscuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.51.213 (talk) 09:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above comment. As an American I can confirm that American English muffins are not like crumpets in that the do NOT have holes in the top. The author of the text of this section was clearly a little confused on this point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.76.123 (talk) 15:56, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Name
(The Name)To be politically correct, shouldn't "English" Muffins be called "British" Muffins? Unless of course Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland don't like to eat this particular type of muffin.--Secret Agent Man 13:07, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

English muffins, as described here, do exist in the UK. They can be bought at most supermarkets. I buy them every week. Deb 16:49, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I didn't write that part, but are they called "English muffins" or something else? dml 17:04, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I think we still just call them muffins, but it's true there is some confusion since we started getting the American-style muffin over here. Deb 22:05, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I've deleted that part. Almost every supermarket I know in Britain sells Muffins - both the English bread-type variety and the "American style" cupcake variety. If you asked for an English muffin you would get the bread variety. McDonalds sell an Egg McMuffin which is described as an English Muffin with egg... Tjwood 14:37, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to wade into this, but "muffin" in parts of the UK just means bread roll, and there are marked regional variations on what terms mean in the UK -- anyhow people tend to assume you are talking about what they recognise. But I have never seen a packet marked "English muffins" on a shelf in England, now asking some random shelf stacker in a super market if they have "English muffins" does not prove that there is such a thing as "English muffins". You can buy English tea, and have a full English breakfast, but until I see a packet "sourced and made in England" there are no "English muffins".


 * See the supermarkets? I bought 2 packs from Tescos today :)

"The Mothers Pride brand is nearly 70 years old. It made its first appearance in the north in 1936 and became a national brand in 1956...As well as the traditional favourites, such as Mothers Pride English muffins, crumpets, fruited teacakes, hot cross and currant buns, there is an assortment of regional specialities, including Mothers Pride Derby scones, Devon scones and Scotch pancakes, and other traditional Scottish fair; potato scones and soda scones."
 * http://www.tesco.com/superstore/product/search.aspx?from=SEARCH&search=muffin# English Butter Muffin
 * http://www.rhm.com/rhm/divisions/brands/brands/mpride/
 * EDROCKS 05:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And we really should not confuse the name with the product it refers to. This whole article needs citations to be honest, and comparisions between scone, crumpet and the so-called "English muffin". An etymology of the term would be most helpful.

For clarification -- it would make more sense to refer to "muffin (cake)" for baking soda ones -- as they are like cupcakes, and "muffin (bread)" for the yeast based griddle scone or bannock like muffin. Hormel English Muffins

If this is actually a variation of a griddle scone, ironically it isn't English, but more likely Scotish. random googled page about scones

Still that so many native English speakers think English muffins are crumpets, rather than what appear to be scone like bread products, would suggest they are far from available and far from popular in merry old England. --Tonypercy 10:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Given that it is possible to purchase English Muffins in all the main supermarkets in the UK (ASDA, Tesco, Sainsbury's, Morrisons) this would suggest that Tonypercy is incorrect in its assumptions. Examples:


 * http://images.google.co.uk/images?client=opera&rls=en&q=english%20muffin&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
 * Encarta: http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861689817/English_muffin.html

And surely you can't say 'so many' without any stats whatsoever backing you up? EDROCKS 05:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

'Muffin' vs 'English Muffin'
Usually, in the UK, people talk about just 'muffins'. Out of the 88 concordance matches of the word 'muffin' in the British National Corpus, the word 'English' was used twice, and the word 'American-style' was used once. So it seems that British people infer the particular type of muffin being referred to by the context of the word. (This is what you would expect, linguistically, anyway):

http://www.sketchengine.co.uk/auth/corpora/run.cgi/freqs?q=alc%2C%5B%5D+%22muffins%3F%22;corpname=preloaded%2Fbnc&refs=%3Dbncdoc.id;fcrit=word+0~0%3E0;ml=1 You need to create an account but this is free.

Biscuits
A recent edit has added an (unsourced) suggestion that Muffins ought to be classified as biscuits. That would be very surprising to a speaker of British English because (to us) a biscuit is a cookie and they obviously arent'. The US usage of biscuis appears to be for a kind of bread, and then an English Muffin should be so classified. I wonder if someone could clarify this. Perhaps the original contributor? Francis Davey 17:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Seconded, thanks. I did have a look on Alton Brown's website and a few other links but couldn't find anything Kymara 09:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Can anyone who has been to a British branch of McDonald's tell me whether or not they sell the "biscuits" the American outlets do? These too are a buttery scone-like thing, and nothing like the British useage of "biscuit".  McDonald's selling American-style "biscuits" in Britain would surely be very confusing. Guv2006 (talk) 10:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * No, British McDonalds don't have these on the menu. And most British people wouldn't know what you meant by biscuits and gravy and would assume you were doing something disgusting with cookies and beef gravy like you would have on roast meat ..  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.237.142.17 (talk) 12:41, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Americans needs to clarify what they mean by biscuit, and cookie. By biscuit they might be including scones. Their cookies are what native speakers of English deem biscuits on the whole.
 * Biscuits tend to be lighter and more buttery than English muffins. 75.118.170.35 (talk) 18:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Crumpet
This article needs to be merged with Crumpet, the UK term. Jumbo 13:12, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I just expanded the article; I think they are not quite the same and don't need merging. See what you think. Elf | Talk 17:13, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Quite right, they are totally different. I much prefer crumpets but like the occasional muffin. US style muffins are ghastly though, I would be sick if I ate one. Francis Davey 19:50, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


 * In that case Francis, you Should eat at least half a dozen. Please! Al Cook USA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.42.198 (talk) 15:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I meant I would be literally sick. American style muffins sold in the UK contain sugar which makes me ill. Crumpets may do (and I have to be careful about this) but many traditional recipes completely avoid sugar. I was not commenting on whether I liked them or whether they were any good. It is not very friendly to wish someone ill, especially if you don't sign your contributions. Francis Davey (talk) 13:54, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * They have to be sourdough muffins, split, not sliced, and broiled under a grill, not toasted in a toaster, and then slathered with butter. Then they're pretty good.  And the best hamburgers or cheeseburgers are made with them (by true connoisseurs) instead of hamburger buns.... Hayford Peirce 20:27, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not agreeing that the article needs to merged with crumpet, but at the very least, this article and crumpet need to explain, with WP:RS's what (if anything but dialect) distinguishes English muffins from crumpets from scones. I went to these articles trying to answer exactly that question, and apparently I'm not the only one. It's what an encyclopedia needs to do. Do these categories overlap, with differences observed by some and not by others? DavidOaks (talk) 15:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

A crumpet is something entirely different Sweetie candykim (talk) 20:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Roman spear points
Any chance of getting a link to this? I'm curious as to what they are and why they are called this

Spelling
Is it just me or does anyone else object to having American spelling (flavor) about an English food? I wouldn't normally mind, I know the wikipedia guidelines say both are ok, but really ... anyone? Not meaning to offend in the slightest Kymara 11:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with you. The Wikipedia Handbook of Style says that articles should use the appropriate regional spelling, so the article on New York should use American spelling, while the article on London should use British English. I think it's obvious that 'English Muffins' should use English spelling. Saluton 20:04, 14th May 2006 (UTC).

The first English muffin was sold in the US. It clearly is a US product. The same way Balti and Chicken Tika Marsala were created by immigrants for the local population in England, and are not Indian food. Therefore the spelling should be in American.
 * English muffins have existed since before America was founded UKWikiGuy (talk) 15:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. There is no such thing as an English Muffin.  There are different varieties, like the plain bread muffin and sweet, confectionery muffins, but there is no historical reason for "English muffin".  It is an American expression referring to something few of us in England would recognise as a traditional muffin. Guv2006 (talk) 10:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


 * There certainly is such a thing as an English muffin. In fact there are two quite different such things. There is what Americans call an "English muffin", the subject of this article, similar to but not the same as what the English call a "crumpet"; and there is what the English call a "muffin". Maproom (talk) 20:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The American product "English Muffin" is nothing at all like a crumpet.Eregli bob (talk) 07:50, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I feel that bringing crumpets into this is a red herring :) DBaK (talk) 08:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Merge from 'Cheesemuffin'
The page Cheesemuffin suggested does not exist. Nor does any other combination I've tried i.e. Cheese (M/m)uffin. If I get no replies here I'll delete the suggestion in a few days. Kymara 11:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of Tony Sidaway's removal of paragraph about Alton Brown
I've removed this paragraph:
 * Because of their cooking style and the composition of their dough, some, most notably Alton Brown, argue that English muffins are in fact biscuits. They do not propose that anything be changed, however.

It seems to be just a namedrop for a guy with a cookery show. This is his personal opinion, which is sort of interesting, but in my opinion not really suitable for the encyclopedia article. --Tony Sidaway 12:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This bit does not seem quite right
In northern England "Muffin" is a common term for a circular sandwich bread roll, often wrongly refered to as a barm, cob, barmcake, bap or teacake.

I've never seen a breadroll referred to as a muffin - it's either breadroll or if you go into the north it's a barm. --Charlesknight 18:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Bread rolls / barms / cobs / baps / barmcakes today mean a bread roll, so a circular sandwich bread roll is not incorrectly referred to as a barm, cob, barmcake or bap. Teacake is something else again. Muffin is certainly not the correct term for these others, yet the text suggests it is the only correct term. This confusion also seems to have been continued on the Muffin page. EDROCKS 05:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't remember where, but somepeople do call a barm/bread roll/cob/ bap a muffin. It is in the North, I think around Manchester. But they tend to be larger. But a shop near me in Leeds used to sell oven-bottom muffins which were packaged http://www.ovenbottommuffins.co.uk/ and were basically just large barm cakes Sweetie candykim (talk) 12:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You should go to Manchester or parts of Lancashire. I was in Ancoats, Manchester, yesterday, and there is a sandwich shop there with the word "muffins" used on its outdoor advertising. One of many, I imagine. It would be wrong to state that the entire North of England uses the word (I would never call a bread roll a muffin, for example, and to my ears it sounds twee), but Mancunians do use it as a synonym for a bread roll, bun etc. Guv2006 (talk) 13:11, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. I grew up in Manchester and you didn't buy barms, you didn't buy baps, you bought muffins! Bods (talk) 12:16, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

English/US muffins
I have removed the following,

Despite the name, English muffins are not as popular in the United Kingdom as they are in North America, and the word Muffin in Britain most commonly refers to the same thing as in the U.S.

since it is absolute nonsense. At the very least, the unqualified usage of the word "muffin" from one UK English speaker to another would refer most of the time to an English muffin. Naturally, I have no statistical source to back this up, but as Wittgenstein remarked, "explanations must end somewhere". Soobrickay 02:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This may depend on your age. I know hardly any, actually I know NO people who eat English muffins on a regular basis, the muffins I often come into contact with are those of the American variety, which people refer to simply as muffins. The article now says they are 'widely eaten in Britain' but it is not. In fact I would say Americans eat English muffins more than British people. McDonalds breakfasts often contain English muffins called McMuffins. NJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.11.198.174 (talk) 18:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I am British and I eat these regularly, but I agree, there are probably more Americans that eat these because of the McMuffin. However the McMuffin is more of a harder bap than a muffin Sweetie candykim (talk) 12:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The comments on this discussion are hilarious. Who'd have thought a muffin could be such a political bone of contention. Anyway having enjoyed the banter I might as well comment. I am English, a Londoner with Irish routes and fifty-ish. Most Saturdays we have fresh bacon (which my family call 'rashers') and muffins bought from a local supermarket called Sainsbury's. To my fellow compatriots you're just not looking because all the supermarkets sell 'English' muffins in packs of 4,6 or 8. There must be enough people around eating them for them to be so easily available. These are indeed similar to the McMuffin bun which in England is surprise, surprise baked in England anyway. Do I use the term English Muffin? - yes I do because otherwise the shop assistant is likely to show me a spounge like small cake that originated in the United States and which is now very popular particularly in cafe style shops like Costa and Cafe Republic and indeed in every supermarket across the country.dorkinglad (talk)

...and I'm tagging it with {globalize/USA} too | US bias and fixing it
I have removed the following from the article as it doesn't specify in which countries it is true:

"English muffins are usually available in regular flavor (usually unsweetened white flour), sourdough, whole wheat, and raisin, and occasionally in gourmet flavors such as blueberry, orange spice, and so on. Most English muffins are 3–4 inches (8–10 cm) across and less than 1 inch (2.5 cm) high, although gourmet varieties are somewhat larger."

Njál 19:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm hovering over how to fix the article. If the descriptions in it are accurate, an 'English muffin' is something like a cross between a muffin and a crumpet. We can't have a article on American 'English muffins' and another article on English 'muffins' — they are closely related. I think I shall create sections. Could someone please check that the section I am going to label 'American' really is? Njál 20:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * (Removed the {globalize/USA} tag now as I've fixed/clarified most of my objections — the request for checking above is still valid.) Njál 21:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Article name
I'd rather like to make 'Muffin' a disambig page and link to something like Muffin (cake) and Muffin (bread) — but I'm fairly sure I'd be outvoted on that (bitter experience, bigger populations...). However, on the principle that an article about a (originally) British thing should have a British, or at least a neutral (i.e. not propagating a specific region's term — Wikipedia is here to report, not influence) name: are there objections to or suggestions for renaming this article?

To do

 * cut down the number of links to 'brands' — I will do this randomly if not done by someone familiar with them  (done) 
 * cut down the number of pictures of someone's cookery batch  (done) 
 * add a picture of a muffin bought or made in England  (done) 
 * check a recipe for US-style English muffins/make sure the pictures are representative. For example, what do the versions McDonalds sell look like?

Njál 21:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Breakfast muffin
Just to check — do we commonly call them 'breakfast muffins'? If we do, I'll add the info back in at the top (and add a disambig page). Njál 21:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

We rarely if ever eat "english muffins" in the UK.
From the photo it looks like what I would call a bap thats been toasted. 80.2.202.130 21:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is not a bap/barm/muffin(another name for the softer bread). (English) muffins are harder than barm cakes and they have flatter sides. They also have a rougher texture on the outside and people do eat them regularly Sweetie candykim (talk) 12:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

>>To be honest I've seen a lot of english people here talking about the fact that noone eats the bloody things. You and a few others are basically trying to tell us, english people, that they are eaten widely. Never have I seen those type of muffins in anyones fridge, and to tell you the truth I always wondered why McMuffins in McDonalds were called Muffins, as I didn't even know another type other than the cake-type sweet muffins existed. If I actually cared I would remove the statement referring to it being "widely eaten in Britain" due to the fact it is blatantly not true. Anyway, I don't know any of the codes to leave my IP but whatever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.29.133 (talk) 02:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm in complete agreement with the contributor directly above. I've lived in and travelled all over the UK and have never known people to eat these so-called "English muffins".  Bread, yes; toast, yes; crumpets, yes; scones, yes; tea cakes, yes.  English muffins, no.  Perhaps people have started eating them a bit more in recent years, now that supermarkets have - apparently - started stocking them, but they wouldn't have existed ten years ago.  They are an American invention which, it appears, we have adopted.  Not in any great numbers, though. Guv2006 (talk) 11:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, conversely, I'm in complete disagreement. I would always refer to them as just "muffins" but we buy them every week and they certainly did exist ten years ago (and more). My mother regular served these for our tea throughout the 1980's, usually purchased from our local Sainsbury's supermarket.86.144.145.48 (talk) 21:06, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

They are not an American invention. I do not have any statistical evidence to say they are widely eaten, and I don't think you have either. My family eats them and friends don't seem to be in shock when they stay over and eat them at my house. Rubbish evidence, but yours isn't any better. The nursery rhyme 'The Muffin Man' is from the 1820s and that talks about muffins of the English variety. The Secret Garden also mentions muffins a few times and that they are hot. Sweetie candykim (talk) 21:55, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I eat them all the time. As a child, that was what we always called muffins, and when American muffins became popular I didn't know why they were being called muffins. Unfortunately, due to Americanisation, the word muffin is now more commonly used for cupcakes. You can't, as an individual, say that they are not widespread because you haven't seen them.--Jcvamp (talk) 12:54, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Two questions for the two previous contributors: (1.) Do you live in England? (I assume you do, but you don't say so.) (2.) Are you aware that "muffins" as available in England are different from what Americans call "English muffins"? Maproom (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Never heard of this before
"Muffins in Britain Muffins are made with a soft, kneaded dough of flour, milk, yeast, sugar, and salt. This proves (rises), is rolled out and formed into shape, and left to rise again. The muffins are then cooked on a lightly-greased hot surface such as a griddle or frying pan. Crumpet rings are not involved in the current form. Muffins are commonly eaten at teatime."

I've never eaten anything like that, and I'm English. I've certainly never cooked anything "on a griddle or frying pan". And in all the years my old mother prepared me a traditional tea, I never had a "muffin". (I also noticed in other articles about english things, the american writer sometimes writes their "disneyfied" belief in what something is like, rather than what its actually like). 80.2.202.130 21:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

"Muffins in Britain... are then cooked on a lightly-greased hot surface such as a griddle or frying pan."

Really? That's news to me, and I'm British. Americans just make this stuff up as they go along. Absolute nonsense. As the above user has commented, the idea some people (such as the source of the above quote) have of England/Britain bears little relation to reality, and would be better suited in the pages of fairy stories. The idea that we eat muffins for tea after faffing about with them in a frying pan is mind boggling, and even insulting. Go and do some research, for goodness sake, and stop posting fantasy as fact. Guv2006 (talk) 13:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm British and I've certainly had (English) muffins. They aren't so common now - but traditional teas are rarer, but they were certainly very much more common earlier last century. I have frequently cooked things on griddles for tea but mostly drop scones (aka Scots pancakes). What has happened is that in England in particular, crumpets have taken over the role of muffins in almost their entirety. English people usually buy pre-made crumpets rather than cooking their own as well. Francis Davey 14:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I too, as a Brit, have never seen an English muffin before. If you say 'muffin' to an English person they will think of a normal 'muffin' not what Americans call an 'English muffin'. I believe we used to eat English muffins here but they are not common at all anymore. 80.42.203.35 21:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Depends on your age and background. Also, you may be a little unobservant. I was in Sainsbury's at the weekend and found on the bread shelf some bread products described as "muffins" which were without doubt English Muffins, so your usage is certainly not universal. Francis Davey 11:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Francis, you presumably have a special Sainsbury's, perhaps a one-off just for you? Even the Sainsbury's website has no mention of these "English muffins" you appeared to find so easily. In fact, they have blueberry, toffee, double chocolate chip, etc, etc - yes, the American varieties we are all familiar with - but not a word about the common or garden "English" variety that we, apparently, heat up in a frying pan (q.v) then eat for tea: http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/Sainsburys_-_Muffins_in_Sainsburys.html   Plus, apart from when denoting lamb and beef, etc, we are not in the habit of telling customers about the nationality of our foods. If there is an item in the UK calling itself an "English muffin", you can bet it has been created by marketing people. Guv2006 (talk) 13:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Using the same website I've found 31 separate instances of Muffins of those Sainsbury's: http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/Shopping/FindProducts.aspx?Query=muffin&SortBy=3 and it most certainly does list "English Muffins" or clearly I'm imagining this: http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/sainsburys-price-comparison/Patisserie/Kingsmill_Love_to_Toast_Muffins_4.html

http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/sainsburys-price-comparison/Patisserie/Sainsburys_All_Butter_Muffins_4.html http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/sainsburys-price-comparison/Patisserie/Sainsburys_Basics_Breakfast_Muffins_6.html http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/sainsburys-price-comparison/Patisserie/Sainsburys_Wholemeal_Muffins_4.html The list goes on with multiple other types and brands, clearly as Francis says you are unobservant. The food is very rarely referred to in Britain as an "English muffin" this is North American terminology, but according to Sainsbury's it is referred to as either a Muffin, Breakfast Muffin, or [type] muffin etc. The only time it was referred to as an English Muffin was when it was gluten free, I've no idea why they chose to do this since their other products which are the same time but including gluten lack the "English" designation. I am also a Brit and have eaten muffins as a child for breakfast, and also more recently, indeed last month in fact. The initial confusion likely stems from the fact that the quoted article says a muffin is griddled/fried and yes it is, if you're making them yourself. If you've bought it in a shop you're more likely to toast it. http://www.cookingbread.com/classes/class_english_muffins.html Aria_elwen 12:40, 25 June 2010  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.23.48.113 (talk)


 * " I am also a Brit and have eaten muffins as a child for breakfast, and also more recently, indeed last month in fact." Are you sure?  What a strange sentence.  First you recall that you ate them as a child "for breakfast", then you claim it was "more recently", and finally it's "last month in fact".  Your evidence wouldn't stand up in court, Aria!  I propose that the witness is unreliable. Guv2006 (talk) 08:40, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes I am British and I eat these regularly for breakfast Sweetie candykim (talk) 12:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

(Afternoon) tea
From the "Muffins in Britain" section:
 * Contrary to popular belief, muffins are not eaten during afternoon tea, as in post-empire Britain "afternoon tea" or simply "tea" commonly refers to dinner or evening meal.

Eh? I'm British, and live in the West Midlands, where "tea" is commonly used to mean a hot evening meal at about 6pm. But I would never, ever call that meal "afternoon tea", and can't recall anyone I know doing so either. "Afternoon tea" I would use, in a deliberately slightly affected manner, to describe the old-fashioned "cucumber sandwiches" affair at 4pm or so. The terms aren't interchangeable. I've rejigged the sentence to something a bit more accurate - though I freely confess that trying to explain how dinner can be called tea and lunch can be called dinner isn't that easy! Loganberry (Talk) 16:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The section is absolute rubbish, and possibly NNPOV (class warring.)Afternoon tea is very much alive and well in Britain. Rhinoracer (talk) 20:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say afternoon tea was "alive and well" merely because it's partaken of by some elderly/twee people in Middle England. It's an anachronism. Guv2006 (talk) 09:26, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I propose that this whole section be deleted. No editor has submitted any real evidence as to the time of day, or accompaniment that is more likely for muffins now and any real evidence that this has changed at all. The whole section now digresses into a discussion of meal time terminology which has nothing to do with muffins. No English person could fail to understand what afternoon tea meant (regardless of regional or class distinctions as to the meaning of "tea" on its own). However, there is really nothing useful to be said about it. Muffins are eaten at afternoon tea and breakfast. Has this changed? Is it a class thing? We simply don't have any useful information and I strongly suggest this part of the article be removed, rather than attempting to rejig. If no-one objects, I will do so. Francis Davey (talk) 20:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The names given to the time of day vary so dramatically across the UK that it is inaccurate to say such a thing as "tea time". I'm from Worcestershire, just south of West Midlands, so for us tea time would also be around 6pm and the thought of having muffins at that time is sheer madness! Beeurd (talk) 20:34, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Muffins rule
I just spent half an hour explaining what muffins were to someone, this page helped a lot :) Also, sainsburys do a 'cheese and pepper' muffin, hard to get them as they sell out quickly in the morning, but they're really nice. cncplyr (talk) 12:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Name Section
I removed the following section, titled "Name," from the article:


 * The word "muffin" appeared in England around the 11th century, derived from the Old French moufflet, which meant "soft" in reference to bread. Instructions for cooking a similar form of bread have existed since at least 1747, although credit for the phrase "English muffin" is often given to Samuel Bath Thomas, an English baker who emigrated to New York City and began producing his “muffins” around 1880. The Merriam-Webster dictionary, however, names the origin as 1902.

First off, none of this appears to be sourced and many of the "facts" appear to conflict with what sources I have found.
 * Merriam-Webster actually puts the year of origin for "English muffin" as 1884, which seems to support the Samuel Bath Thomas origin.
 * However, M-W also puts the year of origin for "muffin" as 1703, matching what is written in the more comprehensive article on muffins (which cites the online etymology dictionary listing of 1703).
 * In fact, that article also has a section on English muffins and this article is fairly redundant and it might even be appropriate to merge this article into that one.
 * The 11th century origin seems to be completely made up and doesn't match anything I can find (and appears to conflict with the other sources' 1703 claim).
 * The muffin article also cites the word to be of either French or German origin, and M-W lists only the German origin.
 * In the sources of the Thomas article, it is mentioned that Thomas was never an English baker; that is, he was never a baker in England. Rather, he emigrated to America at a young age, where he eventually became a baker.  Saying that he was an English baker is misleading.
 * Additionally, nowhere is Thomas credited with the term "English muffin." Instead, Thomas is only credited as having created the forerunner to the "English muffin." The muffin itself had already been extant for nearly 200 years.
 * Where are these so-called instructions from 1747?

As I have listed, nearly ever word in the section is either questionable or outright wrong. As such, I have decided to remove the entire section. I would also like to reiterate my suggestion that the entire article be merged into the muffin article. Jaardon (talk) 22:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

"Rarely eaten"?
I am not going to revert this yet because I haven't found a useful citation, but I strongly disagree that they are rarely eaten in the UK. They are stocked in all supermarkets and in many small "corner shops", at least here in Derbyshire. They wouldn't stock them if there wasn't a market for them. If people aren't eating them, what are they doing with them? Rachel Pearce (talk) 17:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, there's always plenty in my ASDA and Tesco - and they sell. Ronhjones (talk) 00:52, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Very well said! Andrewa (talk) 19:01, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes I am British and I eat these regularly. They are just breakfast food like toast, Scotch pancakes, crumpets, potato cakes and cereal Sweetie candykim (talk) 12:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Apart from being appalled by your breakfast habits, Sweetie candykim, you appear to be going against the grain of the argument that these things are eaten at "high tea". Guv2006 (talk) 08:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

What is wrong with my breakfast habits??? I mainly eat cereal or toast, or occasionally muffins, Scotch pancakes or crumpets. I don't even like potato cakes and have a fry up at the weekend. Pretty standard. What do you eat? Just fruit??? Sweetie candykim (talk) 00:26, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

By potato cake I meant this (Irwins potato cake, potato scone or tattie scone), not a scallop. Sweetie candykim (talk) 00:31, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Muffins in the UK
Why does this state that we Britons prefer to eat crumpets or scones for afternoon tea?! Exactly which century are we supposed to be living in?! KillerKat (talk) 00:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

God knows. It's like a Disney cartoon in this article. The England found on Wikipedia might have been vaguely accurate around 1950, but not since. Guv2006 (talk) 13:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd guess the 18th. Some Americans ae still fighting the American Revolution, I'm afraid. But it's a relatively harmless hobby. Andrewa (talk) 19:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Cornmeal
At the risk of causing more confusion... aren't muffins usually dusted with flour? Maybe cornflour (though I don't think so), but even that isn't the same thing as cornmeal. Knole Jonathan (talk) 15:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Is it really English?
I'm English, and it makes my toes curl every time an American mentions an "English muffin" on TV, in a film, etc. Basically, I have no idea what they're talking about. Hardly anyone in England eats muffins, and those that do and who live in Manchester/Lancashire will be referring to a bread roll or a bun. Everything in America has to have some kind of puerile European name attached to it - why? If it's not a "danish", it's a "french fry", and if it's neither of those it's an "english muffin". For goodness sake! Guv2006 (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I live in Denver and we don't eat very many Denver Omelettes, either. Deal with it. 63.225.116.49 (talk) 01:13, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Are we really having a discussion about the humble (English) muffin?
The comments on this discussion are hilarious. Who'd have thought a muffin could be such a political bone of contention. Anyway having enjoyed the banter I might as well comment. I am English, a Londoner with Irish roots and fifty-ish. Most Saturdays we have fresh bacon (which my family call 'rashers') and muffins bought from a local supermarket called Sainsbury's. To my fellow compatriots you're just not looking because all the supermarkets sell 'English' muffins in packs of 4,6 or 8. There must be enough people around eating them for them to be so easily available. These are indeed similar to the McMuffin bun which in England is surprise, surprise baked in England anyway. Do I use the term English Muffin? - yes I do because otherwise the shop assistant is likely to show me a spounge like small cake that originated in the United States and which is now very popular particularly in cafe style shops like Costa and Cafe Republic and indeed in every supermarket across the country

dorkinglad (talk)


 * It's one of my favourites! English Muffins are about as English as those briny sausages in jars that we call "American Hotdogs" are American.  Ditto, our ersatz "American diners" which are nothing like American diners. The "English Muffins" you refer to are misleading.  You wouldn't have found them in your superstore 10 or 20 years ago, because they didn't exist.  They are an import (albeit one now made in the UK), like various other foods we get from America.  Americans invented the "English Muffin" as a marketing tool to sell more bread/wheat foods, and the word "English" has connotations American shoppers of a certain age and sensibility like.  Think of the ploughman's lunch - an invention of the Milk Marketing Board in the early 1960s to sell more cheese.  This is the American equivalent.  Guv2006 (talk) 09:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I can't agree with this. I'm >50 years old and I clearly remember having muffins - not the American cakey sort - as a child. I wholly disagree with the idea that it is an American concept: in my recollection, we had muffins (which, naturally, we did not call "English" because they were the default as there was nothing from which to differentiate them); then along came American-style cakey muffins. So I now spend a lot of time trying to explain the difference. But, I promise yhou the "marketing tool" bit is untrue and the comparison with Ploughman's Lunch is invalid. Here, however, is something a bit odd: on a recent visit to the US I was proudly presented by my hosts with "English muffins" and these were also not the same as the muffins you can get easily here. So it's like there's a third category - what I would call actual "muffins"; American-style sweet cakey muffins; and a US take on the English muffin. I don't want to start a huge separate thing on this last but it's just a bit different - very very delicious (I'm not a fan of the cakey ones) but definitely a different interior structure/texture/something from a muffin from Sainsbury's round the corner. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 16:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Product of American marketing agencies
Just as ploughman's lunches have nothing to do with ploughmen (being an invention of the Milk Marketing Board in the 1960s), so too should "English Muffins" be seen as having little or no connection with England. Guv2006 (talk) 08:25, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I politely disagree, and invite you to prove your point with references. What is it that I remember eating as a kid in the 60s/70s long before the US invasion of big cakey muffins? Muffins, that's what! (please see above) :) DBaK (talk) 16:46, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

United Kingdom
"They are still a household favourite... [and] are also available in traditional British tea rooms, served with breakfast or high tea." This section is complete and utter nonsense and should be removed. I have lived all over the UK, and nowhere have I know muffins to be a "household favourite", whatever that means. And what on earth is "high tea" in this day and age? This wasn't Edwardian Britain the last time I checked. This section is fanciful and has no basis in reality. In fact, the entire article is built on very shaky foundations (see numerous comments above stating that there is no such thing as an English Muffin). Guv2006 (talk) 10:40, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Almost all of this article is unsourced. Goal muffin? Not a thing comes up in Google for this. Frankly, this entire article needs to be rewritten. 87.113.39.175 (talk) 06:12, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Much of what Guv2006 says about the tone of the article is correct - it's all a bit them were t'days. Nevertheless, I do feel the need to contradict another of these assertions that the English muffin does not exist - that's just not true. I would never call it that, but there most certainly is a muffin which is English, has been around a long time, and predates the cakeoidal US incomer. Sorry to spam this point all over the Talk page but I do feel, with the best will in the world, that these assertions need challenging. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 16:50, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Really?
"Muffin (English)". Really? No, really? OK, sure. I'm gonna go get some cereal (bowl of) and juice (orange). :) -- Ja Ga  talk 14:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The things that Americans call "English muffins" are different from the things that the English call "muffins". It is not clear which this article is about. No wonder it engenders confusion. Maproom (talk) 22:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. If we could get this over, we would be getting somewhere here. DBaK (talk) 07:06, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

This article is unclear
It seems apparent to me that a) quite a while ago, the Brits cooked a popular bread product they called 'muffins'. Apparently, men used to roam the streets of London with racks of the things on their heads. There's even a 19th century nursery rhyme about them. At some point (b), someone started selling these in America, but (apparently) there was already something called 'muffins' in the US, since they found it necessary to add the qualifier 'English' to their "new" muffins. Presumably, the 'muffins' already available in America were similar to the modern cake-like spongy things. And at some later point (c), the British bread-like 'muffin' become considerably less popular in England, to the point that at least some people there consider a 'muffin' to be the American thing, and know of the 'English muffin', using a qualifier that was once unnecessary in England. (They are (afaik)always called 'English muffins' in America, but maybe not. They're quite popular here.)

Why does this article not reflect the (apparent) history of the meaning(s) of 'muffin'? And why is so much of this information uncited? Is there really no good secondary source for the meaning of the simple word 'muffin'? What has the Britannica had to say? Surely there has been an entry for them?? Eaglizard (talk) 09:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't know the answers to these questions. If I had time I'd love to try and find them and maybe get some good secondary sources - the whole article, and this discussion too (including me) is too much people describing their own personal experiences - we could really use some authoritative sources. For the record, I think your suggested timeline is probably not quite right - I think "muffin" probably just got borrowed, quite early on, the way that "robin" did - I don't see your thing of the English ones being "new" as likely. Further, I am very clear, as are some other editors here, that the product sold in the US as an English muffin is not the same thing as that sold in England as a "muffin". (These are what I'm calling Types A and B in the OCD-ish rant below.) I do agree that more research is needed, though with caution as many sources fall into the same trap of just describing what they themselves have experienced. Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 07:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Proposal for splitting
This article is unclear because it is about two different items: the things that Brits call "muffins", and the things that Americans call "English muffins". I believe that it should be split into two articles. I tentatively suggest the titles "English Muffin" and "Muffin (English)".

Some clarification/translation follows. What Americans call "muffins" are called tea-cakes in England. What Americans call "English muffins" are similar to the things called "crumpets" in England. Recently (over the last 10 years?) the things that Americans call "muffins" have been increasingly available in England, sold as "muffins"; so that younger English people tend to use "muffin" to mean the American things that their parents call "teacakes", while older English people restrict the use of "muffin" to the flat-bread-roll-like things. Maproom (talk) 12:58, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * What Americans call "English muffins" are nothing like crumpets at all. Except for their non-irregular mass produced shape,  they are more like what some Americans call a "biscuit".Eregli bob (talk) 07:56, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I wish we weren't mentioning crumpet at all here. But it just goes to show what a mess of definition and counter-definition this is. At least the photo at Crumpet is indisputably clear. :) DBaK (talk) 08:53, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you are broadly right, that it is a confusing mess and that we should try to separate and formalize the definitions. Just for the record, though, even when someone careful and non-shouty like you tries to explain it, it is still fraught with pitfalls. It's almost like we each need to explain our age, locality of upbringing and residence, gender, class (birth and current!), inside leg, preferred household pet, blood group etc before we can offer a definition! So for example to me your statement that AmE "muffin" = BrE "tea cake" is absolutely wrong; and your statement that AmE "English muffin" is close to BrE "crumpet" is a fair bit off too. Obviously your definitions are right to you but, believe me, mine are right to me! I say this not to attack you but just to say that even with the best intentions it is a bit of a nightmare. I would certainly support attempts to sort it out, and I am relieved that some of the rather absolutist statements formerly being made seem to have slackened off a bit; I just think we need to proceed with caution here. (Insofar as it matters at all! ). Cheers DBaK (talk) 14:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * PS: "Proposal for splitting" is an excellent section head in an article about BrE "muffins"! :) DBaK (talk) 14:16, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * PPS Have you, or has anyone, recently looked at LynneGuist's "Separated by a Common Language" blog for this? Or does she edit here, perhaps??? Best wishes DBaK (talk) 14:16, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * New bit:Just to be clear, I am entirely in agreement that (1) we should explain clearly, in however many articles are required, what "muffin" means in various contexts (muleish or not); and that (2) there are (at least??) three types under discussion here which (oversimplifying a little) we might call:


 * A. BrE "muffin" in the traditional sense
 * B. AmE "English muffin", never (afaik) seen in the UK. Very nice but different from A.
 * C. AmE "muffin", the cakey thing, now very common in the UK too, to the extent that it is sometimes necessary to explain when you want A. Also delicious but hey.
 * So I am saying I believe (but cannot prove) that you can get A and C but not B in the UK, and that you can get B and C but not A in the USA. That's just my direct personal experience and therefore WP:OR but may well prove to be documentable. I hope. (Is "documentable" a word?? Hmm.) Best wishes DBaK (talk) 14:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oops. With regard to my "ABC" list above, I just saw this. Although the page describes it as "This traditional muffin" it looks, with its bubbly texture, much more like what I've called a Type B AmE "English muffin" thus giving the lie to my claim that Type B isn't seen in the UK. For Fanden!!!! In what I've called a type A BrE "muffin" you wouldn't see those bubbles because the breadlike texture is quite close. Aargh! For now I am altering my claim to "rarely seen in the UK"! :) Tsk. Is this actually doable at all, I sometimes wonder?? Best wishes DBaK (talk) 09:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I live in Georgia, USA. The "English muffins" that we eat here resemble those in the picture of this article. They don't have a bubbly textured surface at all. I, having never been to England, don't know whether the muffins I eat are in anyway "authentic" English muffins. So: the chief manufacturer of American English (gah, this is so confusing!) muffins is the Thomas' bakery. If you wouldn't mind, please Google Image Search a Thomas muffin, to see if it is at all similar to the "BrE" muffin. --99.127.209.101 (talk) 17:43, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * These do not look like anything I have seen in England. They do look like my (possibly mistaken) idea of American "English muffins". These (left-hand picture) look similar to the things sold in England as "crumpets". Maproom (talk) 21:37, 20 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed - these are not like BrE English muffins. I wish I could see them closer up (or even just eat them!) to get an idea of the texture. For the record, they do from this distance look very much like AmE English muffins as I experienced them most recently in Manhattan, KS, last year. Delicious but somewhat different from the BrE English muffin. Sadly, on my recent trip to Columbus, GA I failed either to eat or photograph any AmE English muffins. What was I thinking? I hang my head in shame. :) Best wishes DBaK (talk) 07:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I can't see the photo you posted, Maproom. I'll take your word for it. Here (scroll down) and here (basically the most American of muffins) are some more shots that sort of show the texture of AmE English muffins. Hope it helps.--99.127.209.101 (talk) 00:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: it may be worth pointing out that Elf, who took the photo here, is in or from the USA. That is therefore I feel a Type B AmE English muffin! (I am slowly going bonkers here, yes, since you ask.) :) Best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 07:34, 21 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, that makes so much more sense! Because I was SURE that was the muffin I eat with my coffee every other day. If you or someone would please take a photo of a BrE English muffin, we could put the Elf version under the American variation section. (But I would like to point out that the surface on the Elf picture is not visibly bubbly. Perhaps there are multiple different version of an AmE English muffin?) --99.127.209.101 (talk) 00:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the response. I will try to get a photo here, though goodness knows when. I am so cross that I didn't do more research on this while in the US in May. I was in Columbus, GA and too busy eating interesting local food to think about "English" muffins! I'm in Grand Rapids, MI next year - maybe that is a muffin-research-friendly environment? :) To be honest, things would be much easier if I simply gave up my job and devoted my remaining years to becoming the greatest living expert on English muffins, publishing scholarly books and websites, marshalling the academic and commercial resources ... now where's that lottery ticket? Best wishes DBaK (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Tesco_muffins.jpg|thumb|right|(Brirish) muffins, bought in Tesco, Abingdon, England.]]As requested, here is a picture or what I, and I believe most other older Brits, would call "muffins".


 * Delicious!! Excellent pic, thanks. Can it go in the article? Best wishes DBaK (talk) 22:46, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Of course it can - that's what I uploaded it for. I am hoping it can go in an article about "Muffin (British)", different from the article about "Muffin (English)". Maproom (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Crossed Wires?
What was the nationality of the originating author for this article? I'm British (or English if you prefer) and have always referred to the item in the photographs as a bun. That may be a familial aberration, but having lived in Norfolk (East), Hampshire (South) and Cumbria (North-west) I've heard it referred to as a tea-cake (which to my mind has to be sweeter and include sultanas), bap, bam, bamp and burger bun. Bread-roll is an occasional term for this foodstuff, but generally implies a smaller, rounder object. I've never heard of anyone using the term 'muffin' beyond the cup-cake style sweet cake and the Egg McMuffin from the well-known fast food restaurant. I do not believe this to be common usage in the United Kingdom and think the article should be flagged as older usage. Alphonsus (talk) 01:40, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think it should at all, and I don't think that there are crossed wires here. The item we are discussing is not a bun. As an experiment I walked round the corner to the little supermarket near my office and bought a packet of muffins, which are what we are talking about here and are certainly not buns. They're just labelled "muffins" as if it's a normal expression and the supermarket is not, believe me, a supplier of fine, exotic or archaic foods. It is very much your bogstandard local supermarket. The muffins are made by some boring mainstream bakery like Kingsmill. (Maybe I should photograph them and their packaging for the article.) I am not the originator (though I am not sure that their place of origin matters) but, as you see just above, I am involved and I do have a strong view on it. So, for the record: I am a Geordie but mostly brought up in North Yorkshire then Bristol, and since adulthood I have lived in Manchester and London. The shop I describe is in London EC1. Do you want to see my passport? :) Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 07:02, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * This talk page is amazing, surely a Wikipedia classic. I'm a Wirralite and almost thirty and have known these since childhood and just always referred to them as "Breakfast Muffins" (becuase I've only really ever eaten these during breakfast time) to distigusih them from the cake muffins. A Tea Cake is either, as a user above described, a sweet circular bread with sultanas which are usally toasted and eaten with Butter, Marg or Jam or a type of confectionary made of chocolate and marshmellow. A Bap, Barm, Bin Lid and Burger Bun (never heard of a Bam or a Bamp before) are different types of circular buns of varying size, a Bin Lid being the largest and a Bap being the smallest. A Bread roll is more elongated like the bun you would use to make a hotdog with. I have never heard any of these names being used to describe a Breakfast Muffin before. I've only ever heard them be described as either a Muffin, a Breakfast Muffin, an English Muffin or, "You know, that bread they use to make a McMuffin with". I'm suprised quite a few people from England have never heard of these and have no idea what these are. 212.250.138.33 (talk) 22:24, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to split
I have added a template to this article, to formally propose splitting it.

I have already discussed this, see above. I consider it clear that the article currently covers two items: and that some of the editors who have contributed to this talk page have been unaware of this.
 * The things which Americans call "English muffins"
 * The things which English people call "muffins"

I am willing to do the work of partitioning the content myself. Before I start, I would like to see a consensus for the split, and for the names of the two resulting articles. (I tentatively propose "English muffin" and "muffin (British English)"). I would like to know more about what these items are called in English-speaking countries other than the US and the UK. Maproom (talk) 21:29, 14 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It looks like they are the same, and the sections are about the different ways of serving them in different parts of the world. Only one sentence isn't part of the same topic: A distinct species of baked good, with pieces of chocolate, blueberries, or other dried fruit, are also sold in the United Kingdom as "muffins". Maybe this should be replaced with something similar to "in the UK, where these are known as muffins, 'muffin' can refer to either this or the American variety", but it probably needs to be in a section about the name. Peter&#160;James (talk) 08:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Far from splitting this article, I think it should be merged into Muffin and a proper article about the different varieties of muffin and their histories created. Op47 (talk) 18:39, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry but I strongly disagree with that; I think it's already quite well-established that the topic(s) of this article are very distinct from the item covered at Muffin. To force them together into one article would, I fear, lead to mayhem. They are not just different varieties but wholly different things, linked only by their both being baked goods and sharing a name. I don't wish to labo[u]r the point but I feel it would be like putting Robin and Robin together in a new HyperRobin article. Best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 18:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oops sorry, OCD headache coming on, I'll shut up in a minute, but with regard to Peter's comment just above, no, it does not "look like they are the same" - the whole thrust of what is being said here by many of us is that they just aren't. I know we don't do OR because it's wicked (but delicious) but, I promise you, if you had eaten both the BrE "muffin (non-American)" and the AmE "English muffin" then you could be in no doubt whatsoever that these are two quite distinct products. They actually come out of the oven different - it's not about whether you put blueberries on one and kippers on the other! Honest. :) Best wishes DBaK (talk) 18:56, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe not identical, but they are varieties of the same item, and it seems there is some variation both within the UK (such as oven bottom muffins) and probably US ( http://vespawoolf.hubpages.com/hub/Homemade-English-Muffins ) - and there is also the McMuffin - which type is that? There should be one overall "muffin" article (although the other muffin article is different enough to stay separate, just as biscuit (bread) is separate from biscuit; I'm not sure of what the article names should be in this case. The European and American Robin have at least been officially defined and clearly distinguished (and a hybrid would have different name). Peter&#160;James (talk) 23:09, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh dear ... thank you, Peter James, for the interesting reply, and I am sorry that my lack of skill in figuring out and implementing hierarchies of indenting seems to have possibly led you to replying to bits not directed at you. I'm in danger of bogging this down horribly and will try to be brief, which never really works, but here goes. My strong reaction to what I felt was a very bad idea was actually to Op47's proposal to merge all the muffin content into Muffin. Not an English Muffin article at all, just one Muffin article with all muffin content, of whatever race, creed, flavo[u]r etc. That was the basis for my comments about robins and while I thank you for the explanation I honestly was already aware of what they are when I wrote that, and I still feel it is germane to that issue - not to your point. That one to Op47 was my reply beginning "Sorry but I strongly disagree". The reply intended for you - Peter - was the one starting "Oops sorry" and related to your "it looks like they are the same" remark. I don't think I have expressed any preference about whether this article  should be split or not, but - without bringing robins into it - I do remain very strongly of the view that they are two entirely distinct items. I know it sounds like OR but, at the risk of repeating myself, anyone who has eaten both could be in no doubt. "Different ways of serving them" does not, aha, cut it - you cannot, by serving it differently, completely change the nature of what is inside the thing when you bite it. And I have. The one you show at the vespawoolf URL seems to me to be a good example of the AmE English Muffin and you simply do not get an open, holey texture like that in the BrE trad muffin. (If anyone even mentions crumpets at this point I swear I will scream.) I don't mean to sound angry or frustrated here (it's only a bl**dy muffin after all!) but to me having this debate over and over with people who say the difference doesn't exist because they have not witnessed it is a bit like trying to work on an article about the Renaissance cornetto with people who claim it can't be real because they have only heard and seen brass band cornets. Holy moley lame analogy, sorry. There are probably a good dozen, maybe more, edits on this page telling me that something I and others know from personal experience (OMG OR!!!!) is untrue and it can be a tiny bit, ermmm, wearing even though it may be a necessary part of building an encyclopaedia. (Especially an encyclopaedia of muffins.) Now then, what is the answer to this? We could go on claiming and denying indefinitely and saying your beliefs trump mine or vice-versa, or we could try and write a proper article with references that support it. For that reason I found Elen's edit below to be a bit of a ray of sunshine, because if she can produce references then great. I do think that, given the (wholly disproportionate and insane) amount of effort that has gone on here, we need quite a high standard of referencing and to be honest, yes, this does make me nervous but at least good refs - even if I don't agree with them! - would be a start. Sorry, not meant to be such a rant and certainly not personally directed at you Peter but I thought maybe another attempt at setting out my (baked goods) stall might help. Best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 12:37, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

The things which Americans call "muffins", the things which Americans call "English muffins", and the things which older Brits call "muffins", are definitely different things. The last two are, I believe, served in the same way. The question is about whether to have three separate articles for them, or just two as at present. Maproom (talk) 19:47, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Speaking purely as someone who bakes both kinds - the English kind is leavened with yeast and baked on a stone or the bottom of the oven (a couple of bakeries in the north of England still sell them as oven-bottoms). To eat it (assuming you can't get it fresh out the oven), you toast it on both sides, pull it apart and butter it. The US kind is raised with baking powder and baked in a tin - although I have a source from 1899 that says that English muffins were baked in the US at that time.  I'll have to have a look at the article - I have a number of reference sources that might usefully add information. Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * " English kind ... To eat it ... you toast it on both sides, pull it apart and butter it." Interesting. When I eat what older Brits call "muffins", I split them first then toast them – you can see the result in the nearest image above. Maproom (talk) 11:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but based on the article as it stands, I can see no justification for a further split. It is clear that what we call muffins, the Americans call English muffin to distingiush them from the cakes that they call muffins. It is the same as we call that game Americans play "American Football," but Americans call it "Football". I am removing the tag now because the discussion appears to have died out, if you re-instate it, please expound here what you think are the differences and I will try and agree some way forward with you. Thankyou. Op47 (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Fine re the tag but I still think you've completely missed the point regarding the actual products. It doesn't matter that much, though. With best wishes DBaK (talk) 22:52, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Issue with name?
Hey, so I noticed this article was recently moved from English muffin to Muffin (bread). While I think I agree with the premise for the move, I'm not sure this title works. "Bread" could apply to types of both muffins; do we have anything that could differentiate better?--Yaksar (let's chat) 23:24, 27 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure what's wrong with bread. An America muffin is clearly a cake - it doesn't involve yeast Bods (talk) 12:25, 21 February 2013 (UTC)


 * There are, I believe, three types of muffin: American "muffins", American "English muffins", and British "muffins". The last two, but not the first, use yeast, and so can be regarded as a form of bread. So there is some sense in the move. Maproom (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Those things called English Muffins are an item that almost died out in England and was re-popularised by McDonalds breakfast McMuffin re-introduction. The first ever "English Muffin" I encountered after living in England for over 30 years was in McDonalds. Before that I had no idea of what they were and only heard of them on American TV programmes. So older generation UK folk might recognise these but younger people might well not recognise them and that's why there is disagreement in this discussion. 194.74.0.10 (talk) 13:42, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The paragraph above is nonsense. They have been here all the time. Neat theory without facts. DBaK (talk) 21:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Disparigingly dismissive but the paragraph above does not deny that they have been in the UK all the time, merely proposes that they declined in popularity until the McMuffin appeared on the McDonalds menu. Not a very neat response from DBaK, and also lacking facts. --86.54.181.194 (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * When you write "does not deny that they have been in the UK all the time", what does "they" refer to? The things that Americans call "English muffins", or the things that Brits call "muffins"? Maproom (talk) 06:10, 12 September 2013 (UTC)