Talk:English orthography/au in sausage

au in sausage
Currently, in the sound-to-spelling correspondence section, the example for /ɒ/ being spelt as "au" in sausage. However, I believe that this is a cot-caught merger issue. Typically, I hear sausage pronounced /sɔsədʒ/. Note, that I live very close to New Jersey very close to New York. Although we tend not to speak with New York accents around here, we do tend to talk with a New York dialect. For examples:
 * Father and bother are distinct, but the r's in both were are pronounced.
 * The "o" in coffee is pronounced as the same as the "au" in caught, but this vowel is unraised and still pronounced as /ɔː/.

However, we do pronounce leprechaun and astronaut as /ä/ (our variant of /ɒ/). So, I feel that either of these words would serve a better example. However, I do not feel that I have the experience to do this myself. Is anyone else up for the task? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 (talk) 02:24, 14 October 2016 (UTC)


 * For this article, the pronunciation being used is RP, unless the word is marked as being something different like "(GA)". In RP, though spelt as if it were pronounced /ˈsɔː.sədʒ/, it is actually pronounced as /ˈsɒ.sədʒ/. 2WR1 (talk) 04:29, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

I do understand your point, sir/ma'am. However, not everybody reading the page would know the Received Pronunciation of the word. If the word sausage can be pronounced either way, it is not a great example. For an analogy, the pronunciation of 'frog' is another weird one that can go either way. So, that would be a rather poor example to put as when "o" is pronounced as /ɒ/, or when "o" is pronounced as /ɔː/. So, right now, I feel the article is a little confusing. To prevent confusion, the example really should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 (talk) 00:36, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I just did it myself, easier than I thought. If somebody changes it back to sausage, then this is a fight I cannot win. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 (talk) 00:46, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I suppose sausage isn't the best example for people with a New York accent, but according to the OED, it has, while leprechaun and astronaut have . That's in RP; probably Australian and New Zealand English would use the corresponding phonemes in their dialects. I therefore the replacement of sausage with leprechaun.


 * If there were a reliable source that gave the pronunciation of these words in a New York accent, perhaps the page could be readjusted somehow, but I don't know of one, so it's just original research to try to adjust the page so that it makes sense to people who speak a New York accent. — Eru·tuon 01:22, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Alright. So, leprechaun and astronaut are pronounced with /ɔ/ in RP.  However, in General American, they are pronounced with /ɒ/.  So, to settle this, I have added leprechaun next to sausage, noting the pronunciation to be General American.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 (talk) 21:16, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * No, leprechaun doesn't have the phoneme in General American. That phoneme doesn't exist in GA, because bother has merged with father. So bother has  instead of, while off has  instead of . However, the cot–caught merger means that many General American speakers just have the phoneme  in all these words. Sorry, this is confusing. Look at the table on the right for a summary. Maybe that will help clarify things. The point is, no GA stuff can be added to the  column, because the phoneme doesn't exist in GA. — Eru·tuon 21:30, 17 October 2016 (UTC)


 * It's possible that leprechaun sometimes has the vowel in General American, but a dictionary would not tell us whether that's a pronunciation due to the cot–caught merger, or a pronunciation without the merger, so I do not think leprechaun should be added to the row for ... — Eru·tuon 21:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

First off, sir, there are dialects of American English that have resisted the father-bother merger. However, the actual value of the vowel in bother in these dialects is not present on the table. So, I had to improvise. Secondly, as this is a page on orthography, it doesn't matter what the actual value of the vowel really is. The groups represent vowel classes. Thirdly, it sounds like you're shouting at me. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.102.218.18 (talk) 22:24, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Look, I am annoyed because you keep making changes to the article, and then I have to revert them when they do not make sense, and explain why they do not make sense here on the talk page. And I generally speak in short sentences when I'm frustrated.


 * I have been speaking about vowel classes or phonemes all along. Vowel quality has nothing to do with it. That's why I am using slashes, not square brackets. GA has two low back vowel phonemes – (though this page uses the symbols ) – while RP has three low back vowel phonemes – . I think you're writing  when you really mean.


 * But still, leprechaun and astronaut have the phoneme in non-caught–caught-merged General American. I think your dialect is atypical in having the phoneme  in those words. So they are not an example of au being pronounced  in General American. — Eru·tuon 23:22, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I have four things to say, my friend.
 * 1) I live in New Jersey where there is no cot-caught merger.
 * 2) You say that I mean  when I write .  Actually, when I type /ɒ/, I really mean /ä/, the short o of the Greater New York dialect.
 * 3) I had good intentions to make the article a little easier to understand.  Unfortunately, your anger has blind you from seeing that.
 * 4) You really did work yourself up over this minor thing.  You don't really have the right to be pissed.

I created this section for discussion. And you, my friend, have used it to scold me. Therefore, I have no choice but to remove it permanently from the talk page within the next week. Good-bye.


 * I am sorry for getting angry. I do not understand why my point that GA has the aw vowel in leprechaun and astronaut is not coming across, so I will not post in this thread anymore. — Eru·tuon 01:14, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

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