Talk:English phrasal verbs/Archive 1

phrasal verbs decoded
Phrasal verbs have been one of the most difficult areas of English to both teach and learn,  and for the intermediate and advanced student a source of a feeling of inadequacy when they are proficient in grammar and vocabulary. The dedicated student, who has mastered the seemingly endless list of irregular verbs (the list is quite small really) has grappled with and overcome most of the grammatical difficulties, can spell and pronounce the ridiculously troublesome words such as hiccough, has a mountain to climb. Whereas in Spain and France the English language is not governed by a body such as the Real Academia Española or the Académie Française, and  dictionaries differ as to what is a phrasal verb and what is idiomatic speech. If the dictionaries cannot agree and one may describe a phrase as idiomatic and another as a phrasal verb, then the problem for the teacher and student alike is twofold. Since there are thousands of idiomatic phrases, and thousands of phrasal verbs, how is the student ever going to speak like a native? When I took my TESOL course many years ago, I and other prospective English teachers were told that the only way to learn phrasal verbs was by heart, the reason being there was no apparent logic behind them. Yet these phrases make up a huge amount of the daily spoken vocabulary of native speakers who acquired them in the same way they acquired their grammar, unaware and completely ignorant of their origins. When a native English teacher attempts to explain the meaning finds that he or she cannot give a reason why ‘give over’ translates to ‘stop doing’ and the same goes for thousands of other phrases. Now, learning these phrases by heart can become a thing of the past. My colleague José García Bes and I have dedicated ourselves to the task of deciphering the seemingly impossible and have discovered a logical framework that can be used to explain English phrasal verbs. Our quest for the answers led us to the medieval period and has been a sort of linguistic archeology. There are 41 particles (prepositions or adverbs) that combine with verbs to form phrasal verbs. We have identified almost 4000 different definitions which fit within the framework of our hypothesis, and I am sure that the average student would find 4000 different definitions a daunting sum to commit to memory. We have found that one only needs to know the  general significance of each particle in order to have a command of the verbs, thus reducing the problem by a hundredfold. Without giving the game away completely, I will give an example of how easy the problem can be overcome. Each particle represents a social level, activities or events, or locations where these societies and events took place during the medieval period. The following is our explanation of the phrasal verbs that take the particles  around/about. The particles in this case can be used as alternatives such as roll around, or roll about. When the particle about is used with no alternative, then the significance of the particle is different from the meaning of around/about. The particle around, when used with no alternative is also different from the meaning when it is used with around/about Around/About

Around/about suggests situations, actions, attitudes and certain activities that took place around the medieval town centre or market-place, but unrelated to commercial activities such as buying or selling and overwhelmingly suggest the following: idleness, time-wasting, and non-production, people who are common, badly behaved, ill-mannered, clownish, unsophisticated, lacking control and being spectators at a show. Several verbs give a clue as to the meaning of around/about: fool, horse, lark, play and slap. Here we have key elements of street theatre dating from medieval times that continue to be widely represented in many parts of rural England and can be seen in the performances of today’s Morris Dancers. Morris Dancing is a traditional pastime in many parts of England performed in the open air as a form of street theatre. The dancers are troupes of men who continue the traditions of folk-dancing and mummer’s plays ( a simplistic type of early theatre depicting the struggle between good and evil, often religious in content but retaining pagan symbolism from the pre-Christian era). For more information go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_dance The street theatre in those days was ribald, bawdy and unrefined, with unambiguous use of references to bodily functions as a basis for much of their humour and comedy, which today we call ‘toilet humour’ The spectators would crowd around/about, sit, lie, roll, hang, wait, gad, and mill around/about. The actors were looked down on by the upper-classes as vagabonds, wastrels, prostitutes and sturdy beggars, and as such subject to imprisonment and hard-labour. “I see she’s going around with that boy again”. Here we suspect that “that boy” is not someone who you would like your daughter to go about with, the inference is tacit, yet is obvious when one hears the words spoken because the inflection of the voice makes it so. This is one of the reasons, perhaps the main reason, that the profoundly deaf native speakers have difficulties with phrasal verbs. If they cannot hear the subtleties of the voice, they are only left with the words, which confound the listener as they confound the foreign student. The public was entertained by the antics of the players who often poked fun at people in the audience as well as within their own group of actors, as still happens today at many morris dancing events. Two of the most important protagonists of these ancient plays remain with us in the morris dancing teams, the fool and the hobby-horse. The fool, armed with an inflated pig’s bladder on a stick would hit victims, selected at random from the audience (knock sb/sth around/about). Slap means to hit with the open hand to cause a painful stinging sensation but little or no damage. The fool would hit people with a slapstick, a device made of wood with a loose, hinged section. When a blow is delivered with the stick it produces a loud crack that gives the spectator the impression that the blow was hard, violent and obviously painful, whereas the exact opposite is true. From this comes the expression “slapstick comedy”. The fool would lark around/about (lark being a derivative of laik, meaning to play or not do work, and is still commonly used in many parts of northern England). The antics of the fool appealed to the coarser nature of the crowd with references to arse, bum, fart, piss, bugger and fuck. He may even poke, sniff, scratch, touching his victim in a genuine or simulated sexual manner in order to get cheap laughs from the victims friends and other spectators, who then fall or roll about/around laughing. Sniffing around the crowd, the clown could show delight at some apparent perfume and conjure flowers the clothing of a victim of his attentions, or showing disgust at some apparent stench, produce a dead rat, cheers and laughs all round. It is no coincidence that today’s morris dancers delight the crowds by performing in the street, but always outside a pub or country inn. The dancing appears to have only two reasons for being. One is to dance to entertain and the other is to spend the money collected from the bystanders on alcoholic drink, such as beer or cider and hence the chosen venue being outside the pub. When drinking a toast to the health of the company these days, glasses are raised and gently tapped together. Medieval revellers under the influence of large amounts of alcohol were less refined, clashing their metal tankards together so that beer or wine sloshed (spilled) out of their drinking vessels and onto the table or floor. To slosh money around/about, now means to have money to waste, as in the wasted beer that is spilled. Horse around/about comes from the hobby-horse, a regular protagonist in mummer’s plays and a common feature in many morris teams. For more information go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby-horse The hobby-horse capering around could quite easily knock over a small child or bump into one of the spectators, thus meaning to behave in a way that is both careless and potentially dangerous. Our journey into the world of phrasal verbs has taken us down many thorny paths, with more than a few dead-ends. We have not been able to accommodate each and every verb that has been decided by consensus of opinion to be a phrasal verb, but this can be explained by the fact that the language is evolving. Many phrasal verbs are modern, such as “log on”, “switch off” etc. and have nothing to do with the medieval world, yet we have identified a common base for some modern phrasal verbs within the context of our explanation. So if you can wait a little while until our publication is available, hold on, you can look forward to an easier way to master these demons and learn a little history at the same time. We are forging ahead and if our plans do not fall through, you should be able to count on seeing it in February. For further information contact me at jgbkjd@yahoo.com.ar

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kvinchuca (talk • contribs) 20:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

more phrasal verbs decoded, At explained
At explained The particle at appears to be the goal or objective of opportunists who attempt to take advantage whenever possible. Some verbs show an endeavour to do something by the subject but we do not know if the attempt was successful or the goal was attained. The objects of some verbs are close to the subject, being within arms reach or at a distance that can be covered by a leap. The particle is always followed by the accusative which denotes the importance of the object, or goal. Because there is much effort in trying to accomplish something but no evidence of it being successful, there is a feeling that the subject is somebody who has not quite mastered the art of his craft, rather like an apprentice. So we can think of at as being more to do with adolescents rather than more mature and proficient adults. There is much rough and tumble, grabbing, grasping, snatching, with sudden attacking, leaping, jumping, flinging, throwing, and flying at the target or objective, verbs that are aggressive in nature. Therefore who are these aggressive apprentices? During the Middle Ages, vassals, who were people who swore allegiance to a nobleman in return for land, would send their sons to the lord’s castle at the age of seven, where they lived as a page to the noble family, this being the first stage in their preparation to be a knight. For the next seven years, the child was brought up by the women of the household, helping in the kitchens, serving at the table and being taught how to behave. At fourteen the page became an esquire. During the next seven years, the esquire (or squire) was educated in all aspects of combat and warfare becoming a master of fighting on foot or on horseback proficient in the use of sword and shield, mace, axe and lance. Training daily with these weapons, the young adolescent developed a strong physique and stamina. When not training for combat his duties were to serve his knight, look after the knight's armour and weapons and accompany him to tournaments acting as the knight’s personal assistant. Though strong and formidable combatants, they were still adolescents and had all the traits of juvenile behaviour. Groups of these young men who accompanied their knights to the tournaments very often became a source of trouble, picking fights with the esquires of other knights, or even fighting amongst themselves. The tournaments were very popular and drew large crowds, knights and esquires from all parts of the country and even abroad. These juveniles were a serious problem, clashes between opposing groups resulted in death and injury, not only amongst themselves but also amongst the local populace. The breakdown of law and order, pillaging, raping and deaths were so common, that in 1260 King Richard the First issued the Statute of Arms. This was a law that restricted any knight attending a tournament to a maximum of three squires. The squires were required by law to wear the badge of their knight, so that they could be identified. The statute also declared that: “”…no Knight or Esquire serving at the Tournament, shall bear a sword pointed, or Dagger pointed, or Staff or Mace, but only a broad sword for tourneying”. Failing to obey the statute meant the forfeiture of horse and harness, arms and armour and three or more years in the dungeon. This shows how problematic and out of control these young men were; anyone familiar with the world of football hooligans will see exactly what we are talking about. There are several verbs meaning to ‘suddenly attack’. To come at sb means to move in the direction of sb as if to attack them as in fly at sb, go at sb. There are attempts to take hold of something, the movement is sudden, as if on impulse, eg. to grab, grasp leap, snatch, and throw. These suggest a melee, rather like a scrum in the game of rugby and the particle with several verbs are synonymous with the verb ‘to tackle’ as in rugby (which is the action of one player throwing himself at an opposite team member who has got the ball, his arms locked around the legs, in order to bring him to the ground). Throw yourself at sth, and go at sth, meaning to start to do sth such as a job or difficult task, working hard to do it and getting the job finished. There is opportunism, as in jump at sth, leap at sth and snatch at sth, meaning to accept an opportunity with enthusiasm. To stick at sth meaning to work in a determined way, tackling the problem until it has been overcome. Although there is an element of surprise, the surprise is always on the part of the victim, who has been assessed as a possible easy target by the attacker. Examples are look at sth meaning to closely examine, think or consider about sth, and to put sth at sth, meaning to estimate the age or weight etc. of sth. In this case the ‘sth’ is the target to be attacked. After looking at and putting sth at sth, the attacker can decide whether the target or victim will be easily overcome. If, because of the age, weight, size and probable fighting ability of the examined target is rather too much of a challenge, the young squire would go in search of an easier target. The knight was a mature and accomplished suitor, with refined powers of seduction, the esquire however was a juvenile lacking in his master’s polished skills of love. Therefore we have fling and throw oneself at sb, a clumsy attempt at seduction, with the result that other squires would laugh at him. A successful squire who managed to attract his desired maiden, could have received a knowing look from a fellow esquire, who would wink at his advances. Likewise, to wink at sth is to show acknowledgement of sth that sb has done that is illegal, or for the squire, perhaps a breach of the code of chivalry. The squire could be criticised for behaving badly by his knight who would talk at him, or level sth at him, thus giving the squire a cause to worry at sth, being anxious or preoccupied about some problem or the future outcome of a passed misdemeanour. Play, to act as if you are, or to pretend to be, when used with at suggests the horse-play of the squires in a rough and tumble, but without any serious intent to cause injury. With peck, pick and sniff at sth, we can see the young squire who is accustomed to eating fine food from his master’s table, showing distaste at food not cooked to his liking.

kevin chuca

kvinchuca2004@yahoo.com.ar

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kvinchuca (talk • contribs) 21:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi, Kevin and Serapio, ah yes, the problem of the phrasal verb. This article does try to make it clear in the first two sections (Idiomatic or literal verb-particle constructions) and (Grammar in literal verb-particle construction).


 * Some grammarians claim that only the figurative (that is the idiomatic or metaphorical) usage should be called phrasal verb. That is what it is all about, namely whether you include an idiomatic phrase such as "to go about it in the right way" which is a metaphor, as nobody imagines that you are actually walking about or around the job you are trying to do; or whether also include a literal statement such as "I am going across the road". Some teachers, grammarians and linguists adopt the pure definition of only idiomatic usage, as in the first example, and some include the literal verb + (uninflected) particle/prefix as the second example indicates. Transitive or intransitive really has little to do with it.


 * I don't think I need to refer to any websites which only advocate idiomatic usage as you seem to be referring mainly to the original definition of phrasal verb, namely the idiomatic one anyway, I feel you need only to look at some of the first samples I "came across", to give you an idea just how many experts include the purely literary verb-particle construction.
 * Here are some: http://www.englishpage.com/prepositions/prepositions.html and
 * http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/esl/eslphrasal.html
 * and http://takeoff.to/phrasalverbs . Dieter Simon 01:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * One more thing, as also explained in the article, idiomatic phrasal verbs are the ones which have to be learned by heart, irrespective of their actual form, as their parts cannot be understood by themselves or together, while literal verbs + particle/prefix have to be analysed as to whether their parts can be understood by themselves or together. Dieter Simon 01:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The verbs I see called phrasal verbs on those sites are either non-literal or separable (permitting particle movement), and the definitions include idiomaticity/unanalyzability. What I meant by transitivity is that if the particle is transitive (i.e. it it is a true preposition) then while it can be a phrasal verb, it isn't a verb-partical construction.

Serapio 21:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Let down!
As you keep insisting it this talk page, I know it's not easy to define phrasal verbs to the layman. But this article is utterly confusing, right from the start. The reader doesn't get what a phrasal verb is from the introduction (some simple examples should help A LOT), and after that it looks like a scholarly discussion about the nature of phrasal verbs. The examples are the worse, since you don't clarify what part of them actually IS a phrasal verb!!

It's lovely that you discuss so passionately phrasal verbs in this talk page, but for goodness' sakes, try to make this article (and any other you attempt to make) accessible to everyone! There HAS to be an easier way to define Phrasal verbs! Kreachure 19:46, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Complicated
The article in Simple English is much easier to understand. I think that means this article is unnecessarily difficult. John 22:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree it is easier to understand, and this article needs some serious reworking. But note that the Simple English article also messes up the distinction between phrasal verbs and normal verb + preposition, calling "come into" a phrasal verb but not using it in one of the "come into" phrasal verb senses . The trouble is that for it's a somewhat subtle distinction. Any ESL teachers out there willing to do a rewrite? -- Serapio 02:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Need a definition
The very beginning of the article, where the phrasal verb is defined, refers to an "uninflected" preposition, adverb, or adverbial particle. As I understand inflectional morphology, it is never applied to any of these categories of word in English. What is meant by "uninflected," here, if it is not redundant? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 140.180.156.211 (talk) 06:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC).


 * You have a good point actually, but help is at hand. There is an article uninflected word which will explain all you want to know, I am sure. Dieter Simon 23:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC) Dieter Simon 01:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Confusing? Yes.
OK so it seems that we've created a confusing article. Instead of arguing about definitions we should be simplifying this article for those who will actually read it. Some of us believe that phrasal verbs are only those which portray an idiomatic and unobvious meaning while many people accept that a phrasal verb can be literal or non-literal. Many coursebooks are similarly confused. Personally I would accept items like '"take out" the trash' (obvious meaning) as being a phrasal verb just as I would accept that 'He recently "gave up" smoking' (less obvious meaning) as a phrasal verb also. Xanucia 22:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The placement of the object in phrasal verbs
The various forms of phrasal verbs

Phrasal verbs can be transitive or intransitive, separable or inseparable. The object or accusative can in the cases of separable phrasal verbs be placed before or after the particle. With inseparable phrases, the object/accusative is fixed and its position either before or after the particle cannot be changed by the speaker. Our analysis has shown that the position of the object/accusative assigns an importance, diminished importance, or a complete lack of importance from the speakers point of view. If the particle is followed by the object/accusative then the importance is clearly shown. If the object/accusative precedes the particle it has a diminished or lack of importance. If the object/accusative can go before or after the particle, as is the case in separable phrases, then the importance assigned to it is decided by position the speaker places it. The separable phrases are commonly described as having the same meaning, no matter where the object/accusative is placed, either before or after the particle and in general this may be true, however there is a difference, so small as to be unnoticed. There nevertheless occasions when the object/accusative sounds to be misplaced to the ears of a native speaker. There are in many phrases a word order that is generally accepted to be the norm, and a diversion from this order would immediately be noticed by a native speaker and not necessarily by a non-native. For example, the colours of the Union Jack (the British national flag), are red, white and blue. If somebody described them as blue red and white, they are technically correct, but the native speaker would sense an uncomfortable feeling that the speaker was not quite right, or had spoken incorrectly.

There are many example of this: bacon and eggs (correct) eggs and bacon (uncomfortable). Black and white films (correct) white and black films (uncomfortable). Cup and saucer (correct) saucer and cup (uncomfortable).


 * Some of this is purely convention, while some of it conveys some element of non-specificity. Grandma might say "hand me your cup and saucer" - indicating she wants those items and any accoutrements with them such as a spool, while another speaker might say "pass me your saucer and cup" to indicate only the specific objects; a speaker might order "bacon and eggs" but when asked what they are eating respond "eggs and bacon" (particularly among people who regularly consume "sausage, eggs and bacon").


 * On the other hand, "Black and white film" is an example of what is essentially a compound proper noun like "pickup truck" or "sports car", a fact often obscured by the presence of the "a" word. Kfsone 05:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing in English grammar that rules the order of these words and to a non-native speaker the fact that all the information is there, is all that matters, but the uncomfortable sensation felt by the native demonstrates that something very subtle is going on. The same applies to the separable phrasal verbs. In most instances the subtle difference is unnoticed even by the native, yet in speaking the word order used demonstrates a particular importance or diminished importance that has subconsciously been attached by the speaker. For example. “that man is chatting my girl-friend up”, in this phrase, I have given a diminished importance to my “girl-friend” and there is a subtle sense of indifference to the situation. Whereas “that man is chatting up my girl-friend”, in this phrase ‘my girl-friend’ is after the particle and is subtly stressed. “My girl-friend” is shown to have more importance in this phrase and there is an implied sense of indignation as opposed to indifference.

When we use a pronoun instead of naming the object/accusative, the pronoun always goes before the particle. The reason being that once the object has been named the attached importance to the person or thing is slightly diminished, but the importance can be restated by the repetition of the name. For example, “Is your girl-friend called Sarah?” “Yes why?” “Well, that man is chatting her up ”. “Bloody hell, you’re right, he’s chatting up my Sarah”. Here the indignation is obvious because of the naming of the girl a second time. If the phrase was “yes he’s chatting her up” the indignation felt by the speaker and heard by the listener would depend on the inflection of the voice, whereas in “my Sarah”, there is no doubt how the speaker feels.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kvinchuca (talk • contribs) 02:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Particle adverbs and modifying adverbs and where they are positioned
From the article:


 * When modifying adverbs are used alongside particle adverbs intransitively (as particle adverbs usually are), the adverbs can appear in any verb/particle/adverb positions:
 * “He unhappily looked round”.
 * “He looked unhappily round”.
 * “He looked round unhappily”.

It seems that not all three forms work in all cases. Consider: He quickly let go, he let quickly go, he let go quickly. I find that the looked unhappily form seems incorrect. Similarly, light switch operation doesn't work in the first case: he off switched the light, he switched off the light, he switched the light off.

Kfsone 06:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "Let go" is indeed the infinitival form of the verb "to go", yes, it can form a phrasal verb as in this case. The example you quote: "he off switched the light" has never been mentioned at all, the correct usages would have been: "he switched the light off", "he switched off the light", or the third version, "he switched it off". You are introducing difficulties where there are none.


 * While "unhappily" is the modifying adverb for the verb "look", you can indeed use it in all the three ways mentioned. You may have a preferred idiosyncratic way of expressing yourself, and of course it depends on which of the words in the sentence you want to stress, but as such all three versions are perfectly alright. Don't let the fact throw you, that the the meaning might be somewhat unusual. If you wanted to stress the word "unhappily" when being interrogated, a questioner's "he looked unhappily round the room"? could indeed be answered with "he looked unhappily round", with the stress on "unhappily". We are talking about the many ways English may be used correctly. Dieter Simon 11:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

"To beat a path to someone's door"

 * Another, but much more difficult, example is “to beat a path to someone’s door.”


 * an idiomatic phrasal verb meaning “to go and see someone frequently and in large numbers, because the person in demand represents someone well-known, successful and/or famous, and it is important that those calling at the door are able to speak to the person".


 * “The reporters were beating a path to the celebrity’s door.”

The above section has been the focus of a recently brewing edit war.

I agree that it's an idiomatic phrase, but dispute that it is a phrasal verb. Saying it's a phrasal verb means that "to beat to" is a phrasal verb with its own meaning which is unmodified by whatever noun it is associated with. However "beat a path to one's door" is a unique phrase which can not substitute a different noun for "path" without changing the meaning or making it meaningless, as the idiom page well-explains; i.e.- If it were a phrasal verb, "beat a road", "beat a highway" or "beat a passage to" would all be valid constructions, in the same way that "pick up a language", "pick up some tips", "pick up the basics" and "pick up a new skill" are valid constructions of "pick up". However, "beat a path to one's door" is the only used form of the idiom, so it doesn't fit the definition of phrasal verb given in the lead, being "verb + preposition(s)/adverb(s)".

That's my take on it, but I'm willing to concede if it can be backed up with a reference from a dictionary of phrasal verbs. There are many other examples of idiomatic phrasal verbs which could be included if the section in question needs expanding- "pick up", with a variety of meanings, "to (be) put out", or "work out" are a few that come to mind. --DrHacky (talk) 13:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The real problem, of course, is that of the direct object (as I have already mentioned). Wherever you have a combination of a phrasal verb (in this case “to beat to”) with a direct object, it looks at first sight as though no phrasal verb is present. Although “to beat to” as a phrasal verb does not exist on its own, it certainly does in combination with a direct object (“a path”). There is actually another “to beat to” phrasal verb construction, that of “the boy beat his sister to the finishing line” (“pipped her at the post”). So advice to English learners: look for the phrasal verb in complicated sentences, it may be with a direct object.


 * As for “to beat a path to someone’s door”, as an idiom it is far from unique. Rosemary Courtney mentions in her introduction the third type of phrasal verb entries, that of idioms, including “(to) let the cat out of the bag”. What about other idioms such as “to add insult to injury”, “to add fuel to the flames”, “to leave someone in the lurch”, or “to scare someone to death”? They all have a direct object combined with a phrasal verb.


 * We should not be worried that the actual original meaning of the combination of the various parts of a phrasal verb sentence is now difficult to establish. In “beat the path”, for example, the more times feet run across the same soil or grass, the more likely it becomes that a firm grassless path is the result. However, what we should consider, is that all the idioms started out in the same way as any ordinary everyday statement. The original meaning of to “beat a path” was to “lay a path”, as may be seen in any dictionary. To separate this type of idiom (verb + direct object + adverb/preposition + indirect object) from modern turns of phrase is quite preposterous. Phrases such as  “to raze a building to the ground”, “to reach the city by the next day”, “to buy vegetables by the kilo”, or “to leave one’s purse in the shop” (the numbers of examples are infinite), one day may well turn into idioms themselves.


 * So, I am going to revert the latest and re-enter the example. Dieter Simon 01:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The sequence "beat a path to" cannot be a phrasal verb according to the definition given at the beginning of the article (because it contains a noun). Neither can "beat to" (not a "complete semantic unit"). The fact that "door" is also part of the expression moves this example clearly out of the scope of this article, and into more general idiom territory. Moreover, the disputed text is not written in an encyclopedic style: "much more difficult" (according to what source?), where did the quoted definition come from? (And why do you believe that beating the path is idiomatic, but that calling at the door is literal?). And finally, in my opinion, the main purpose of this article is not to give advice to learners of English, and so providing more and more complicated examples is not useful. If you are worried that people might not realized that a phrasal verb can be split up by a direct object, this issue is already covered in another section of the article (Direct and Indirect objects).


 * In language and grammar articles, the rules about OR and citing sources can be somewhat relaxed, as long as other editors are watching, and there is consensus. But in cases of dispute, reliable sources must be provided before re-introducing the material in question. (For example, the Oxford dictionary of phrasal verbs does not include this idiom among its 12 phrasal verbs involving beat.) CapnPrep 12:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Once again I have reintroduced previous material and have added a direct citation of the original source of the points I have been making. Although dictionaries are not normally cited, this being a dictionary of actual phrasal verbs must surely be taken into account. As well as including further examples of idioms as constructed by verb + direct objects + preposition/adverb + indirect object, part of the introduction has been included. If you criticise this inclusion you will have to criticise the source first, which you are at liberty to do, but you need to say so.


 * I had mentioned and agreed that "to beat to" is not a complete semantic unit. However, it becomes a semantic unit, namely that of a phrasal verb sentence in that it uses the verb plus the preposition and or adverb (which modifies the indirect object). What else would the preposition or adverb combine with but a verb in these examples. They belong with the verb whether we like or not. I hope I have made my reasons somewhat clearer now. Dieter Simon 15:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There is nothing wrong with the source: it states clearly that these examples are not themselves phrasal verbs, but idioms containing phrasal verbs. Your use of the phrase "idiomatic phrasal verb" a few sentences later is not justified by this source. And aren't the examples taken directly from Longman good enough to illustrate your point? Why insist on including a " much more difficult elsewhere more rarely-seen" example with a definition that you apparently made up yourself? If I say "As soon as she heard the news, she beat a path to my door to confront me about it", it means that she came quickly and purposefully: not frequently, not in large numbers, not to see someone well-known, successful and/or famous, and of course there may be no actual door involved. CapnPrep 15:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, have removed redundant "to beat a path", and have fixed the source. Article looks good now. Well done. Dieter Simon 18:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I'm afraid I still don't agree.
 * Other idioms show a verb + direct object + preposition/adverb + indirect object construction:
 * In her introduction to "Longman Dictionary of Phrasal Verbs, What this dictionary contains", Rosemary Courtney includes as a third category
 * 3. Idioms which are formed from phrasal verbs, such as let the cat out of the bag. These idioms are printed in heavy type. Idioms have a meaning which is different to the meaning of the single words, and usually have a fixed word order.[3]
 * Courtney then cites among many other examples in the dictionary such phrases as "to add insult to injury", "to add fuel to the flames", "to leave someone in the lurch", "to scare someone out of their wits", etc.
 * I have a couple of issues with this inclusion. First, it says "other idioms", which is a non-sequitur as the topic of discussion is idiomatic usage of phrasal verbs, not idioms. The examples given later are all idioms, which contain arguable phrasal verbs, but which would nonetheless be better suited to a section in the Idioms article, "Idioms containing phrasal verbs". Adding them here does little to explain idiomatic phrasal verbs, of which we currently have only one example.
 * Further, the method of quotation and the text quoted is quite awkward. It is not a definition per se, but the key to the dictionary. A discussion of this type of idiom and its relevance would be more appropriate, not just a passing note on how they are indicated in the dictionary.
 * Its sentences may, however, contain direct and indirect objects in addition to the phrasal verb.
 * This sentence gives little information, and is also awkwardly written with "Its sentences". Saying that a sentence may contain a direct and indirect object because it has a phrasal verb says no more than "Some sentences with verbs have direct objects, indirect objects or no objects."
 * Identification of phrasal verbs as transitive or intransitive, separable or inseparable, is important and is somewhat addressed in the body of the article, but this sentence in the lede doesn't help the understanding of that issue. Actually, it's possible that some of the discussion of such identification has been made less clear with CapnPrep's recent restructure, and I would argue for the reintroduction of those headings. Cheers,--DrHacky (talk) 13:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * From the very beginning of this discussion you had a problem with the inclusion of the use of verb + direct object, etc. construction in a discussion on phrasal verbs. The sheer fact that several sources have been included which obviously count among phrasal verb examples precisely these verb + indirect object phrases doesn't seem to matter to you. In the introductory section itself a source has been included [] which in an article on "Phrasal verbs as idioms", refers to "transitive phrases that can take a direct object", which you seem to have ignored. OK, a few style changes may be necessary in the article text, but please don't tell me that direct object phrasal verbs should not be included. Examples such as this belong to an article on phrasal verbs, whether you like it or not. By all means, include it in an "Idiom" article as well, but it certainly belongs to this article. If you have a problem with it perhaps you should turn to the writers of the sources cited, and discuss it with them. All I have done is cite what they have said, which is as it should be. Dieter Simon (talk) 02:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Terminology
I took out most of the reference to the "transitive" vs "intransitive", "separable" vs "inseparable" distinctions, because these terms are neither useful nor accurate for describing phrasal verbs (and the sources that I have consulted do not use them). In a verb-particle combination, it is important to know if the verb takes an object and if the particle takes an object; labeling the entire phrasal verb "transitive" or "intransitive" is inadequate and confusing, because in fact there are 4 possibilities. For "separability", there are also more than two options, and sources that call every phrasal verb either separable or inseparable are (implicitly) assuming particular definitions of these terms in order to cover all cases. That said, since the terminology is used in some of the literature (for learners of English, for example) we might discuss if and how it can be treated in the article. CapnPrep (talk) 11:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, agreed, but the trouble is that if there is a phrasal verb + direct object phrase, it does occur in transitive instances. Yes, I agree too, that most of the citations in articles (there are over a thousand in Yahoo alone, some of which may be discounted as quotes from Wiki sources) refer to teaching learners. However, who are we to disallow these? Aren't we writing an encyclopaedia rather than a learned treatise addressed to peers already well-versed in the intricacies of linguistics? Perhaps the association of transitive verb and direct object might be made clearer? However, I don't think it should be ignored, rephrased but not ignored. Dieter Simon (talk) 12:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This illustrates what I was saying about using apparently familiar terms without providing explicit definitions of how they are applied specifically to phrasal verbs. When you say "phrasal verb + direct object", I don't know for sure what that means (look up + an old friend, look at + an old painting, or both of these?). I also don't understand what "occur in transitive instances" means. CapnPrep (talk) 16:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * All I meant was we can't really ignore instances when a someone on a website (often a university site) is explaining phrasal verbs taking the direct object. In the BBC World Service website the phrasal verb with adverb or preposition is being discussed which takes a direct object []
 * In the UHV site under the heading "Phrasal verbs as idioms" is stated "transitive phrases are those that can take a direct object", etc.[]. All I am saying is that we really have to come to terms with these efforts being made out there. Sources in Wikipedia are the be all and end all, and when you look at these sources they have to be taken into account. As for "using apparently familiar terms without providing explicit definitions of how they are applied specifically...", you changed the original lay-out. Wouldn't it have been up to you supply these definitions in their new context? The trouble with these direct object phrases is that neither you yourself nor DrHacky are happy with them, but they are being taught out there. Just try "phrasal verb" "direct object" (with the quotation marks) on either Google or Yahoo, and see the results! We can't just insist on what we ourselves "know", we have to take account what others, for the most part respectable sources, teach. If we don't, then readers coming straight from those other sources will be confused. That's all I meant. Dieter Simon (talk) 01:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I never said I had a problem with direct objects. (I still do have a problem with talking about idiomatic direct objects before giving examples of ordinary direct objects.) And I did supply definitions of "transitive" and "intransitive" for particle verbs, didn't I? I deliberately chose not to use these terms for prepositional verbs, because they are confusing and used inconsistently across sources. The previous version of the article said that walked across the bridge was "a transitive verb", presumably to distinguish it from walked across, intransitive. But then what is walked his dog across the bridge? So the solution I chose was to distinguish particle verbs and prepositional verbs, and then refer to the presence or absence of a direct object in both cases. This is what I "know" from sources like Quirk et al. and CGEL, but I can't cite them directly at the moment. Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by "indirect object" in the article. CapnPrep (talk) 13:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Last question answered first: "indirect object"? What everybody else understands by it: "the grammatical object representing the secondary target of the verb in the action".
 * Courtney gives two examples:
 * "I put his bad temper down to  his recent illness"
 * verb    object     adv. prep.    object


 * "Can I help you to  some more potatoes?
 * verb object prep      object
 * She calls this kind of phrasal verb construction 'a transitive verb with two objects: a direct noun object and a noun indirect object.' The whole is under "Grammar codes for the phrasal verbs", and all of it is part of the dictionary for phrasal verbs. I can see that indirect objects might not need to be included in a discussion about the transitivity of direct objects, but there it is. Where there is one source which does so there will be others doing it too. As I said Google has over 4,560 websites which include 'indirect objects' in the articles about 'phrasal verbs'. I have only gone up three pages and they seemed well-wrought academical sites. Dieter Simon (talk) 00:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This is not what everybody understands "indirect object" to mean; this is a notoriously vague label. Depending on the source, this term can refer to (i) a very specific kind of object (expressing the recipient with a verb of giving, corresponding to the dative argument in other languages) — this seems to be the definition assumed in the Object (grammar) article, (ii) any argument of the verb that is introduced by for or to, (iii) any NP that is introduced by any preposition whatsoever, etc. etc. Courtney is to be applying a wider definition than (I believe) most people would go along with. I think a better term would be "prepositional object" (this would also be more consistent with Object). CapnPrep (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, who is to judge whether any of the sources likely to be cited are correct? If sources are relevant to the subject and respectable as to their derivation, which we must take into account, how can we say it is not worthy of inclusion? The Wikipedia way is to take sources which disagree and juxtapose both or all opinions within the encyclopaedia, give the opinions as they are being presented and let the readers make up their mind about them. That is the way to solve a controversy. In British libraries, you used to be able to ask them to request a book from other libraries if they didn't stock it themselves. Whether they still do, I don't know. The point I am making is that we shouldn't just ignore all those sources out there even if they don't agree with our opinions. Availability of the sources should never be a problem, neither should their citability. Dieter Simon (talk) 01:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

treebank
It seems that if one has a set of sentences marked up in tree-bank style, then most of the various examples given in this page seem to fall into about a dozen different treebank patterns. For example:

"We LOOK AFTER our children."

(VP look (PP after (NP our children)))

The words can be pattern-matched to:

(VP accept (PP accept (NP reject)))

Anyone have experience with this? Are there published lists of these? At least shallowly, this seems to work well. I suspect there are crazy exceptions but I haven't really found many. linas (talk) 00:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Copula "in love with"
Hmm, I was writing up some computer code to pull these from free text, and came across one that is not reviewed in this article: "I was IN LOVE WITH her" -- two prepositions, but the verb of interest is not "was" but is "love". linas (talk) 00:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This is an idiomatic phrase and has only one verb "was", the infinitive being "to be in love with". "Love" in this phrase is not another verb but a noun which together with "to be" means "to love (someone) deeply". Does that help? Dieter Simon (talk) 23:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Talk down to
how would you classify "talk down to" (as in to speak to someone as if you were better than them)? particle verb with two particles, one transitive, one intransitive? Adavies42 (talk) 08:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "To talk down to" consists of a verb + adverb (down) + preposition (to) as "down" in this instance modifies the verb "to talk" and "to" is the preposition before the following noun/pronoun. All adverbs and prepositions are uninflected words and therefore are grammatical particles, so, yes, "down" and "to" are particles. It is what their functions are rather than whether they are transitive/intransitive, that matters. (They are also called function words for that reason). Dieter Simon (talk) 22:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Literal
Only the last of these is a phrasal verb; the others are proper verb + preposition. It seems to defeat the subject of the article. To "climb up", for example, is redundant; to "climb down" means something entirely different: that is a phrasal verb since "climb down" has a different meaning from "climb" (i.e. to retreat or back away, which again is a true phrasal verb). Simply tacking a preposition to a verb does not make it a phrasal verb; it's the act of making it a different verb: see for example Siamese twins (English language) (not a very good article, mostly a list). SimonTrew (talk) 15:43, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

This whole thing could be simplified
(Have moved the following from where it was placed at the top of the talk page):

This whole thing could be simplified if the article approach the issue more from a syntactician's perspective: If the verb and alleged preposition can be separated by the object, then the preposition is in fact a verb particle, and not a preposition. Prepositions are the things that are the heads of prepositional phrases. There is no such thing as a "Prepositional Verb," there are V + PP or Phrasal Verb/Particle Verb & Object constructions. 71.32.254.170 (talk) 02:28, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Be our guest and do exactly what you say should be done, but first try to register as an editor. We need people with fresh ideas. Dieter Simon (talk) 22:42, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
The subject of phrasal verbs is the single most complicated point in English for someone learning the language as a foreign language. [Second to it is the placement of the tonic accent and third to it is the use of antonym prefixes (mis-, dis-, in-, de-, non-, ...)]. I've had so much difficulty with it since I started learning the language some 20 years ago! This article made the whole thing clearer for me and I'm feeling so thankful to all those who contributed in making me feel less helpless and less (almost) desperate as to when and whether I'd finally get a grasp of phrasal verbs. So thank you. All the heated discussions with arguments being thrown back and forth do look petty in the light of what I've learnt in the past 20 minutes. Amenel (talk) 10:16, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Distinguishing phrasal verb + object from verb + preposition/adverb
I have been seeking a means of distinguishing phrasal verb senses from non-phrasal verb senses for some time. Please see meet with for cases where the distinction does not seem clear to me or to those who produce dictionaries of phrasal verbs. Compare McGraw=Hill Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrases with Merriam Webster online. DCDuring (talk) 12:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Other Languages
I'm curious, Are there other languages that make use widespread, or even any, use of phrasal verbs? Perhaps we can list some of those languages? Cornince (talk) 05:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, phrasal verbs are certainly part of German grammar, for example. What I am not so sure about, however, is whether this warrants inclusion in an English Wikipedic section or article, as it would really be far to abstruse, to recognise the finer points in German types of phrasal verb.
 * You would have to be very fluent indeed to know a phrasal verb in German. True, verbs are also combined with adjectives/adverbs, such as "offenlassen", "stattfinden" etc, but are much more frequently combined with nouns such as: "in Vergessenheit geraten" - to be forgotten, which is literally translated " to get into forgottenness"; or "in Gebrauch nehmen" - to use, literally translated "to take into use". However, there are some which to an English speaker would also make sense, such as the phrase "unter Druck setzen" - literally "to put under pressure".


 * Honestly though, I don't think it would be appreciated if you created a section for the German equivalent of an already complicated enough English grammar concept, such as 'phrasal verb'. After attempting this in other German aspects of grammar in the past, I learnt a lesson when it was literally reverted as soon as I had created it as not being relevant. Dieter Simon (talk) 00:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Phrasal verbs are very common in Swedish, and probably also in the other Nordic languages. Since the concept is not exclusively English, I think mentioning this is warranted. Gon-no-suke (talk) 08:42, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I'd like to propose that Multi-word verb be merged into Phrasal verb. The multi-word verb article is fairly newly created, and the topic would be better explained together with phrasal verbs, prepositional verbs etc. We could create redirects from Multi-word verb and Prepositional verb to Phrasal verb, which essentially serves as a main article about the family of those verbs, and devote a section explaining subtle differences in their definitions. --Whym (talk) 01:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Idiomatic usage
It is precisely idiomatic usage which is so important as far as phrasal verbs are concerned. Probably a good half of all phrasal verbs are used idiomatically, how you can even think of separating out those from them rest I don't understand. Isn't that what the section on "Idiomatic Usage" is all about? The rest is taken care of by the section "Direct and indirect objects" because that is precisely what you have here: "to beat (verb) a path (direct object) to (preposition) someone's door (indirect object)". Idioms are part of the story of phrasal verbs. Dieter Simon (talk) 00:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops, sorry, I missed this post. See below for my comments. --DrHacky (talk) 13:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I see a great deal of confusion here between phrasal verbs and idioms. Mention of idioms should be reduced or even removed. The given example "to let the cat out of the bag" is an idiom that merely happens to contain a phrasal verb; it would retain its meaning if the Germanic phrasal verb "to let out" were replaced by a Latinate equivalent, e.g. "to release". Anyone who knows German and at least one Romance or Slavic language knows that most phrasal verbs are like separable German verbs, and equivalent to prefixed latinate or Slavic verbs (e.g. describe, subscribe, prescribe, proscribe, inscribe). Idioms are a whole different ball of wax (yes, that was an idiom). I think the confusion is arising because phrasal verbs are Germanic, and inherently folksy in comparison with their elevated Latinate equivalents. Simplulo (talk) 01:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Requiring the object phrase to precede the adverb
The article currently states:


 * Still other transitive particle verbs require the object to precede the adverb, even when the object is a long noun phrase:

* ''They let the man through. (not *They let through the man.)'' * They let only the men wearing formal dress through.

I disagree with this example. Because of the substantial length of the object phrase, I would put the adverb directly after the core verb: "They let through only the men wearing formal dress." Can anyone find a better example than this? I'm skeptical that there is such an example where the mandatory word order is verb + object phrase + adverb. 75.183.96.242 (talk) 20:49, 4 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I've replaced it with what seems to me to be a better example, to tell apart, along with a citation to it. 75.183.96.242 (talk) 19:40, 6 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that the ability of a "transitive" phrasal verb to accept a personal pronoun between the verb and the particle is a necessary condition to call a verb-particle combination a "phrasal verb". I'm not sure it is sufficient. DCDuring (talk) 12:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Major revision needed
This article is redundant, confusing, and it is pushing a specific point of view (with which I disagree). It lacks organization and does not present the phenomenon of phrasal verbs as a coherent whole. It reads as though it has been pieced together over a period of years by different authors without the oversight of a motivated editor who would ensure that the content is consistent. I am currently redoing the article entirely. The draft of the revision can be found at my sandbox here. Comments desired and and welcome! If no objections are expressed, I am going to replace the article with the new one in a couple of days. --Tjo3ya (talk) 15:09, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

The new article is an excellent exposition of one point of view of "phrasal verbs", and very well organised. However it presents only one point of view without giving an overview of other points of view (with both positive and negative reference). "With which I disagree" is a fair sign that the article is still not yet unbiased. One area of great debate is that of "non-compositionality", which is probably an error of analysis made partly by restricting the field too much, partly by over-applying structural criteria, and partly by failing to understand semantic properties of words (including particles/prepositions) and abstract~idiomatic extension thereof.

For example:

The car ran over the pedestrian.

1) the concept of "non-compositionality" does not take into account the semantics of "run" - it has a wide range of uses that indicates that the underlying meaning is not that of the action of moving fast where mammals (etc.) are concerned, but more globally of moving or causing movement in a particular manner -

The ship ran before the wind.

The blood ran copiously.

The engine is running roughly.

They ran the horses along the ridge.

Who's running the company?

He sat mesmeried watching the wheels running along the road.

etc.

2) road accidents have been around a lot longer than motorised transport - horses and horse-drawn vehicles "ran down" people in the old days.

3) "over" contrasts with other prepositions:

The car ran past the pedestrian.

The car ran through the crowd.

The car ran under the bridge.

The car ran down the hill.

etc.

4) the concept of "non-compositionality" also does not take into account the semantics of "over" and the possibilities of abstract extension:

The car ran over the finish line.

The car ran over the tracks.

The car ran over the speed bump.

The car ran over the pedestrian.

etc.

From these points of view, the argument "one cannot know what a given phrasal verb construction means based upon what the verb alone and/or the preposition and/or particle alone mean, as emphasized above" is a misanalysis. "Non-compositionality" as such therefore would not exist.

-- Roidhrigh 09:17, 17 August 2012.

Semantic units
Roidhrigh,

Phrasal verbs are semantic units. Verb and preposition and/or particle form a single semantic unit. If they did not, there would be no motivation to acknowledge the special class of constructions, i.e. there would be no phrasal verbs to begin with. There would be verbs and adverbs and/or prepositions, but no phrasal verbs. The concept of non-compositionality provides a basis for understanding how phrasal verbs can exist as a separate class of lexical items.

Where we may agree is in the area of semantic shift. I think there are shades of non-compositionality. In your example, the meanings of run and over in run over have shifted to a minor degree only, but enough for a separate lexical item to be acknowledged. Running over a squirrel involves a clear mental picture for me, a picture that is beyond the meanings of run and over when they are understood in isolation. The shift in meaning is much greater with hang out. Arriving at the idiomatic meaning of hang out from the meanings of the two parts requires a significant jump. In such cases, the non-compositionality is great.

When there is no shift in meaning, I do not think one can really acknowledge a phrasal verb. Thus walk across in He walked across towards us does not earn the status of phrasal verb for me, because the meaning is compositional. In such cases, I would argue that across is an adverb, not a particle.

The explanation of phrasal verbs in terms of non-compositionality is one that I think most definitions of phrasal verbs agree with. These definitions tend to emphasize that phrasal verbs qualify as single syntactic and SEMANTIC units. A quick look in most any dictionary will verify this claim. In order to be viewed as a single semantic unit, the meaning of the parts when they appear together is necessarily non-compositional to at least a minor degree. --Tjo3ya (talk) 14:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back on this, Tjo3ya.

"Phrasal verbs are semantic units". - the term "unit" here is arguably misused. "Combinations" would be better. I.e. the two words (the verb) and the prepositon or particle (a better term for particle is "one word prepositional phrase") have separate meaning but work together.

Also, it is also arguable that there is no such thing as a "phrasal verb" - that the term itself is based originally on translation and dictionary linguistics - not on linguistic analysis. This would also be true for "separable verbs" for Germanic languages. It is perfectly logical for there to be only verbs, prepositons, adjuncts, etc. There is arguably no need for the term "pharasal verb" in that it would therefore have no linguistic or semantic reality.

In other words, I disagree that "phrasal verbs can exist as a separate class of lexical items" means that phrasal verbs MUST exist as a separate class of lexical items. This is not so. The concept in "running over a squirrel" is again simply another example of the standard use of "run" and "over" as a preposition. After all, it is not "run through the squirrel" or "around the squirrel" or "under the squirrel". It is "over the squirrel". "Over" shows that position of the movement in exactly the way "over" should.

Also, "hang out" may well be an abstract extension - however abstract extension does not mean that the meaning expressed is a distancing top being a separate item in itself. The concept of non-compositionality is invalid even for such cases. They are not single syntactic or semantic units nor are the meanings of the parts not "non-compositional". "Hang" is used in an idiomatic extension, while "out" is close to its core meaning. The idiomatic extension is also very easy to understand.

Roidhrigh, 17.40, 24 August 2012. "The explanation of phrasal verbs in terms of non-compositionality is one that most definitions of phrasal verbs agree with" - "agreeing" does not automatically mean independently assessed. If most definitions are simply quoting or otherwise referring to one or two original researchers, then that is in reality one or two researchers - not most.

However, more importantly, in the article that you are rewriting (quite rightly, I add), there are those references/remarks referring to alternative views. If you have removed alternative views, then you are automatically presenting a biased view.

Backing?
Roidhrigh,

I think there is solid disagreement between our views. You seem to be arguing that all meaning is compositional. I'm wondering if you would also see an idiom such as pull X's leg as fully compositional.

Where I can acknowledge that you have a point concerns the measure of noncompositionality. The example you discuss (run over) is mildly noncompositional (That example can be replaced by another that is more clearly noncompositional). In the scheme of things, I think we are dealing with a continuum. At the far left of the continuum, meaning is completely compositional, whereas at the far right of the continuum, meaning is completely noncompositional. I think all meaning starts out as compositional, but through time and metaphorical use, noncompositionality arises and is lexicalized.

But what does our disagreement mean for the article? I think the explanation in terms of noncompositionality in the article as it now stands is firmly supported by most any source. Googling "phrasal verb" and reading a bit verifies that this is so. In fact, I just did this. The following definition was at the top of the list:


 * A phrasal verb is a verb plus a preposition or adverb which creates a meaning different from the original verb.

Hence from my point of view, doing more to incorporate the type of analysis you prefer requires some good sources. If these sources exist and can be verified, then I am in favor of doing more to accommodate your points. --Tjo3ya (talk) 17:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Disagreement?
The solid disagreement centers on two core aspects – (non)compositionality and the definition (:: A phrasal verb is a verb plus a preposition or adverb which creates a meaning different from the original verb.).

I do indeed say that all meaning is compositional - in the case of clauses and phrases at least. Compounds and monomorphemic items and the like are another category, of course.

Even “pull x’s leg” is strictly speaking compositional. An idiom made of several words is an idiom that is at clause/phrase level that depends on the core meanings of the individual words within the clause/phrase. It is the imagery and the reference of “stop pulling my leg” with reference to the real-life imagery of pulling one’s leg that give it its force. Even though there is the higher level of “idiom” or “imagery” or (whatever one wants to call it) which goes beyond the individual words of the phrase/clause, the force of the idiom still retains its humour, or whatever feeling it arouses, through this link to the concrete.

I.e., such phrases are compositional, even at the idiomatic level.

As for the definition – it has been around a long time, and is inaccurate in that the preposition/adverb does not change the meaning of the verb from the original meaning. This misconception is partly based on “translation” linguistics and partly on the concept that “idiom” means having a completely different meaning (compositionality). The dangers of "time-honoured" descriptions is that they are based on theoretical approaches/analyses that may have since overridden them.

One work is Huddleston Rodney, Pullum Geoffrey K (2002); The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. Cambridge University Press, 2000 : phrasal verbs "do not form syntactic constituents" and that "it is for this reason that we do not use the term 'phrasal verb' in this grammar" (p. 274). There is much more than this, of course, however, the points they make are a valid alternative based on a variety of reasoning.

ROidhrigh 14.43 29th August 2012.


 * Roidhrigh, I will check the source you cite when I am in the library next (assuming the library here has it).


 * I don't think anyone would dispute the observation that phrasal verbs are not constituents. Indeed, that is what makes them interesting. If they were constituents, the problem of noncompositionality would mostly disappear, since one could state simply that the idiomatic meaning is assigned directly to a multi-word constituent.


 * While phrasal verbs often cannot be construed as syntactic constituents, they can be construed as catenae, as the article makes clear. Since they are catenae, the idiomatic meaning can be assigned directly to a concrete unit of syntax. Hence in this one regard, one can in fact argue after all that all meaning is compositional. One must, however, take the catena to be the fundamental unit of syntactic analysis and assume that meaning is assigned to catenae (which are not necessarily constituents).


 * Concerning Huddleston and Pullum's choice to avoid the term phrasal verb, I think that strategy is a loser. The term is so widespread that there is almost no hope of replacing it with something that might be more accurate. --Tjo3ya (talk) 17:23, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Seeming illogicality?
"While phrasal verbs often cannot be construed as syntactic constituents, they can be construed as catenae, as the article makes clear. Since they are catenae, the idiomatic meaning can be assigned directly to a concrete unit of syntax. Hence in this one regard, one can in fact argue after all that all meaning is compositional. One must, however, take the catena to be the fundamental unit of syntactic analysis and assume that meaning is assigned to catenae (which are not necessarily constituents)"


 * There seems to be a certain lack of logic in this - or perhaps circular reasoning, in that it is seemingly putting syntax before vocabulary. That is to say, assigning idiomatic meaning to syntactic structures which in turn depends on the vocabulary within that structure being used idiomatically or not. "Catenae" may be fundamental units of syntactic analysis, but this does not mean that the meaning is assigned to the catenae, but rather to the words that are the constituents of the catenae. The concept of catenae also comes across as being based on restricted analysis, i.e. focusing solely on catenae of the type "X fed up with X" etc., without looking beyond these catenae. In other words, the examples of catenae in the article are too easily open to other analyses.

I may understand what you are getting at here. I think in the sense you desire, the meaning of phrasal verbs and indeed, of all idiosyncratic expressions in general is simply noncompositional. The verb/adjective fed in They are fed up with the proposal has close to no meaning at all; it certainly does NOT have the meaning that it has in a sentence such as The pig is fed. Only in combination with up (and with) does the entire expression gain solid meaning.


 * The meaning of all phrasal verbs, and indiosyncratic expressions made of words, including "fed up (with)" is compositional. Because structural linguistics (which includes catenae) becomes so focused on the tructure, it can lose track of the words within the structure-catena. There are various pieces of evidence that "fed up (with)" is compositional. One is the typical hand gestures that go with this, typically down-facing palm going up to or coming to the level of the top of the neck (or the like) - that is to say, the preposition (I prefer this to "particle", so pleaase bear with me for a moment there) "up" clearly has its "up" meaning for native speakers. Semantically speaking, as with all idioms, "fed up" has a clear relationship to the concrete also in core use. Something some people still do, but used to be much common two or three generations ago was feeding animals (pigs, geese, ducks, turkeys, etc.) up for slaughter, an this was done with scraps or grain or whatever : We fed the pig up with al the kitchen scraps - and being a large family, there were lots of scraps.

What the catena allows one to do is to say that idiosyncratic meanings do in fact correspond to concrete units of syntax. One assumes that the word combinations that form idioms, for instance, are stored as catenae in the lexicon. The words constituting an idiom such as fed, up, with form a catena.

That the catena-based analysis of idiosyncratic meaning is correct becomes apparent when one considers the word combinations that never form idiosyncratic expressions. Idioms that consist of a verb and the object of a preposition to the exclusion of the preposition do not exist; idioms that consist of a verb and a determiner to the exclusion of the noun do not exist; idioms that consist of one verb and another verb to the exclusion of an intervening third verb do not exist; idioms that consist of a subject NP and an object NP to the exclusion of the verb do not exist; etc. The words of idioms never correspond to these combinations because these combinations never form catenae. --Tjo3ya (talk) 15:14, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * "that strategy is a loser"? A very strange turn of phrase. I might mention that it is based on pretty strong and solid scholarly research, and not just Huddleston and Pullum - as you will see if you can get hold of the work. The essential analytical tool is to step back from English and to reanalyse it completely from the ground up, as it were. The concept of catenae seems to depart from the premise that phrasal verbs and particles are a given without looking at alternative analyses.

I will try to get to the library sometime in this coming week. I will take a look at what Huddleston and Pullum say. I will be surprised if they actually propose an analysis of phrasal verbs that is anything like what you are suggesting (i.e. all meaning is compositional). --Tjo3ya (talk) 15:37, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * An important point of departure for evidence for stating that "phrasal verbs" ("prepositional verbs", etc.) do not exist is questioning the status of "preposition" and "particle" and by detaching oneself from the Latin based concept that a preposition "must" come before its referent (be this overt or shifted), and reassessing the actual status of these words in English (and the other Germanic languages). The concept of prepositions as headwords is key to this reanalysis, which necessitates a reanalysis of the status of prepositional phrases; i.e. the status of the relationship between the three classes of "headword" n English, nominals, verbs and prepositions.

I do not fully understand your point here. I may agree that the term phrasal verb is not really a good name for the underlying phenomenon, because the term phrasal verb focuses on a single word, i.e. on the verb, whereas the actual construction consists of at least two words (verb and preposition and/or particle). It is, however, an established name for a type of construction that has to be acknowledged by anyone who has ever studied English syntax and grammar. Attempting to rename the phenomenon with a different term is unlikely to be successful precisely because the term phrasal verb appears in hundreds if not thousands of grammar books.

A preposition that follows its object is a postposition. English lacks postpositions, but of course postpositions exist in many other languages. --Tjo3ya (talk) 15:37, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

If there is a disagreement about whether meaning is always compositional in phrasal verbs, then simply put, it isn't. This isn't controversial - can you argue that idioms don't exist? Roidhrigh, do you disagree with this, or is your problem with the article something different? Do you think that there is too much emphasis on the concept of catenae or that statements about how they relate to meaning are too clear-cut and don't consider alternative theories of meaning?

Regarding the name of the article, the article suggests other names as well, like "compound verbs". The name is confusing because there isn't a phrase corresponding to a phrasal verb.

Can I suggest "A verbal idiom involving prepositional phrases and particles" as a definition? I'd also mention that particles have been categorized by some as prepositions. Count Truthstein (talk) 10:25, 2 September 2012 (UTC)