Talk:Enochian magic

All the minor angels
List of Enochian angels is an article listing about 300 Enochian angels and demons. It was nominated for deletion twice: in 2005 (resulting in "keep") and in 2006 (resulting in "no consensus"). The big question now is do we still want to keep this list? If we do, there are several other things that need to be worked out. Of course, all of this work is dependent on the idea that the list itself is desirable and it isn't going to get deleted. That's the main question I have come to seek some clarity on. Thanks! – Uanfala (talk) 12:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Is the list reliable? Over the decade and a half of its existence the list has seen a fair number of anonymous editors removing, adding or chaning entries. By this stage it's completely unclear which of these entries are supported by the sources in the bibliography and which aren't.
 * When the list was first compiled, redirects were created for apparently all of the angels mentioned in it. Over the following years, many of these redirects have been retargeted elsewhere, typically to dab pages (like or ). The editors doing the retargeting must have felt the list of angels too fancrufty, so they hadn't felt it necessary to add mentions of those angels to the dab pages. Now, do we want editors searching for the names of any of the angels to be able to find out that this is indeed a name of an angel? If yes, then there's a lot of work ahead adding entries to dab pages.
 * The flip side is that there are still a large number of redirects pointing to the list – 189 at present – and quite a few of them are ambiguous. So there's also work tracking these down and retargeting them or expanding them into dab pages.


 * Well, I've nominated the list for deletion, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Enochian angels. – Uanfala (talk) 13:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Question
Why doesnt this article say that "Magic is of course bullshit" or a variation on that theme? -Roxy the sycamore . wooF 14:00, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

^^^ someone with more time than myself should volunteer to spearhead the efforts to create a "scientific opinions on magic" section or some derivation thereof


 * Because magic is a belief system and falls under the category of religion. Just as we can't say "Christianity is of course bullshit" we can't denigrate a belief system on Wikipedia. We merely report on it, as we do on mythology and religion, without adding our own opinions. Skyerise (talk) 15:47, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Removed sections
These two sections have been removed due to complete lack of citation. Please cite what you can if returned some or all of the material to the article. Skyerise (talk) 17:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

The calls or keys of the 30 aethyrs
The essence of the Enochian system depends on the utilisation of eighteen calls or keys in the Enochian language (a series of rhetorical exhortations which function as evocations), and a Nineteenth key known as the Call or Key of the 30 Aethyrs. The calls are used to enter the various aethyrs, in visionary states. The aethyrs are conceived of as forming a map of the entire universe in the form of concentric rings which expand outward from the innermost to the outermost aethyr.

The Enochian "map" of the universe is depicted by Dee as a square (made up of the 4 Elemental Tablets/Watchtowers incorporating the Tablet of Union (Spirit)), surrounded by 30 concentric circles (the 30 aethyrs or airs). The 30 aethyrs are numbered from 30 (TEX, the lowest and consequently the closest to the Watchtowers) to 1 (LIL, the highest, representing the Supreme Attainment). Magicians working the Enochian system record their impressions and visions within each of the successive Enochian aethyrs.

Each of the 30 aethyrs is populated by "governors" (3 for each aethyr, except TEX which has four, thus a total of 91 governors). Each of the governors has a sigil which can be traced onto the Great Tablet of Earth.

In practical Enochian workings, the Nineteenth Call/Key of the 30 aethyrs is the only call necessary for working with the aethyrs. It is only necessary to vary appropriately the name of the aethyr itself near the beginning of the call. Once the Call is recited, the names of the Governors are vibrated one at a time and a record of the visions is kept.

Great table of earth: elemental watchtowers and their subdivisions
The angels of the four quarters are symbolized by the Elemental "Watchtowers" — four large magickal word-square Tables (collectively called the "Great Table of the Earth"). Most of the well-known Enochian angels are drawn from the Watchtowers of the Great Table.

Each of the four Watchtowers (representing the Elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water), is collectively "governed" by a hierarchy of spiritual entities which runs (as explained in Crowley's Liber Chanokh) as the Three Holy Names, the Great Elemental King, the Six Seniors (aka Elders) (these make a total of 24 Elders as seen in the Revelation of St. John), the Two Divine Names of the Calvary Cross, the Kerubim, and the Sixteen Lesser Angels. Each Watchtower is further divided into four sub-quadrants (sometimes referred to as 'sub-angles') where we find the names of various Archangels and Angels who govern the quarters of the world. In this way, the entire universe, visible and invisible, is depicted as teeming with living intelligences. Each of the Elemental tablets is also divided into four sections by a figure known as the Great Central Cross. The Great Central cross consists of the two central vertical columns of the Elemental Tablet (the Linea Patris and Linea Filii) and the central horizontal line (known as the Linea Spiritus Sancti).

In addition to the four Elemental Watchtowers, a twenty-square cell known as the Tablet of Union (aka The Black Cross, representing Spirit) completes the representation of the five traditional elemental attributes used in magic - Earth, Air, Water, Fire and Spirit. The Tablet of Union is derived from within the Great Central Cross of the Great Table.

The squares of the Elemental Watchtowers and those of the Tablet of Union are not simply squares, but in fact truncated pyramids, or pyramids with flat tops - thus, pyramids which have four sides and top, for a total of five 'sides'. Again, these represent the traditional five magical elements (Earth, Air, Water, Fire and Spirit) though in varying combinations. There are 20 Pyramids in the Tablet of Union and 156 in each of the four Elemental Tablets. Each pyramid houses an 'angel' with a one-letter name. The angel's attributes (that is, its powers and its nature) are 'read off' according to its position within the Tablet and proportions of the different Elements (whether Earth, Air, Fire, Water or Spirit) represented on its sides. When two Pyramids are combined they form an 'angel' with a two-letter name whose attributes are somewhat more complex. This gives rise to ever-more complex 'angels' depending on the number of pyramids under examination. The attribution of various Elements to the various pyramids is best depicted on a labelled and coloured version of the various Tablets.

Angelic communications: claimed.
, re https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Enochian_magic&oldid=prev&diff=1048373855 Aren't the angelic communications claimed, rather than fact? -- Jeandré, 2021-10-07t12:39z


 * Nope. See WP:CLAIM. They said, wrote, reported that ... not "claimed". We are neutral, we don't use words that imply disbelief, especially in matters spiritual or religious, which are subjective to the practitioner. Unless you think you can disprove their report? If someone notable has written that they disbelieve the report, we can add that information without casting doubt on the original report by using the word "claimed". Skyerise (talk) 20:39, 7 October 2021 (UTC)


 * , the sentence was reverted back to "The raw material for the Enochian magical system was dictated through a series of Angelic communications which lasted from 1582-1589." How is that better than the sentence with the word "claimed"? We have to improve the encyclopedia, not make it worse. -- Jeandré, 2021-10-08t08:35z


 * Claimed suggests disbelief. It's not neutral and violates WP:NPOV. That's how it's better. Did you read WP:CLAIM at all? To use "claim" here is to suggest one of the following (1) angels don't exist; (2) angels exist but people cannot perceive or communicate with them; or (3) the subject of the article made up a story about communicating with angels. Can we prove any of those implied assertions? If we can't, why would we imply them? The use of "claim" damages the neutrality of the encyclopedia, offends those who believe in angels, and both of those things make the encyclopedia worse. I've explained how use of the word makes it worse, now you please explain how you think it would be an improvement. Skyerise (talk) 15:40, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Moved unsourced sentences from "Origins and manuscript sources" section.
"

The Enochian system of magic is primarily the work of two men: John Dee and Edward Kelley. The raw material for the Enochian magical system was dictated through a series of Angelic communications which lasted from 1582-1589. Dee wrote they received these instructions from angels. While Kelley conducted the psychic operation known as scrying, Dee kept meticulous written records. Kelley looked into a crystal shewstone and described aloud what he saw.

This account of the angelic communications is taken at face value by most Enochian occultists. However, some of them have pointed out remarkable similarities to earlier grimoires, such as the Heptameron which was known to Dee. Such magical texts as the Book of Soyga (of which Dee owned a copy) and others including the magical works of Agrippa and Reuchlin probably also had an influence on Dee and Kelley.

Liber Logaeth – The Sixth and Sacred Book of the Mysteries
The Liber Logaeth (Book of the Speech of God)(aka The Book of Enoch aka Liber Mysteriorum, Sextus et Sanctus -The Sixth (and Sacred/Holy) Book of the Mysteries)(1583); is preserved in the British Museum mostly within Sloane ms 3189 (but parts of Sloane ms 3188 and the Cotton Appendix I also contain the beginning and end of the book, with some copying of material in Sloane ms 3188 appearing in Sloane ms 3189). The correct spelling is Loagaeth, but it has been so frequently printed as Logaeth that this spelling is in common use.

Written up by Edward Kelley, it is composed of 73 folios (18 from Sloane 3188, 54 from Sloane 3189, and 1 (text only) from Cotton Appendix I). The book contains 96 exceedingly complex magical grids of letters (94 of which are 49×49 grids of letters, one of which is a table composed of 49 rows of text, and one of which is a table of 40 rows of text and 9 rows of 49 letters). The final folio from Cotton Appendix I was 21 words consisting of 112 letters, which according to the text, was apparently able to be somehow reduced to 105 letters and arranged into five 3x7 tables, three on the front and two on the back (cf. Cotton Appendix I).

It is from Liber Logaeth that Dee and Kelley derived the 48 Calls or Keys (see below), and in which are concealed the keys to the Mystical Heptarchy, a related magical work by Dee. Dee himself left little information on his Sixth Holy Book apart from saying that it contained 'The Mysterie of our Creation, The Age of many years, and the conclusion of the World' and that the first page in the book signified Chaos. Note that the title The Book of Enoch attributed to the text of Liber Logaeth is not to be confused with the aprocryphal Biblical The Book of Enoch. (There are three versions of the latter; a facsimile reprint of the Ethiopian version is in . Nor should it be confused with Crowley's rescension Liber Chanokh (The Book of Enoch) although all these texts are related.

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The 2 refs contain no page numbers. -- Jeandré, 2021-10-08t08:35z