Talk:Enrique MacDonell

Date format
The format of dates appearing in this article equivocate between dd mmm yy and mmm dd yyyy.--Trilotat (talk) 20:37, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Odin or Oden
Mentions the xebec Odin. Same as the Hemmema Oden mentioned in Battle of Svensksund (1789)?--Trilotat (talk) 21:07, 25 February 2017 (UTC).
 * I believe it is 'Odin' but I am happy to accept 'Oden' I saw it written both ways. I'd like to find more detail.. Tommyxx (talk) 09:35, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The record I found is Odden. dates from 1905 Tommyxx (talk) 13:17, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * But Swedish records have Oden, It is certainly the same ship you mention. captured at the battle etc.
 * There are records in Madrid that state the Macdonnell was in command of the Oden, but it is stated that Måns von Rosenstein also was. It is hard to say for sure as they were of the same age and rank at the time. Both were 'promoted' afterwards, and both we captured, and both were treated exceptionally well by the Russians. They both spoke fluent English, and this may explain why they were put together. Macdonnell sat on King Gustav Navy war council after the battle, and was offered the command of the navy, according to his own report to the king of spain, I doubt he was making this up, even though it seems extraordinary, I suspect they were in joint command,  It's possible that Måns von Rosenstein or MacDonnell has ultimate command. I suspect they had huge admiration for one another and worked well together. It may have been a Nelson/Hardy situation.
 * Correction, MacDonnell was of superior rank on the Oden, He was a Captain, and Mans was a commander. But, MacDonnell was a foreigner and New, they could have promoted Mans prior to the battle so not to insult MacDonnell by being commanded by a lower rank. but they didn't. I think the Madrid records are correct. MacDonnell was probably in command but with the commander working along with him issuing orders in Swedish etc. If he was only second in command he would not have ended up on the war council and been offered the role he was as supreme commander of the navy.

Spain Army?
Any idea why the infobox reflects Spain Army rather than Spanish Army?--Trilotat (talk) 14:27, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I didn't put that up, Maybe we should change it Tommyxx (talk) 10:11, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Rank Of Enrique MacDonnell
I have gone to get the records in the archive in the Spanish Armanda. I have the large file of the Rayo for the day of battle at Trafalgar, it's enormously detailed right down to counting the cannon balls, and listing dozens of senior crew. and their ranks. It is confirmed on this he was a 'Brigadier' which is the same a 'commodore'. In all documents to and from the admiralty at this time he is listed with this rank. I think confusion set in, because when he returned from retirement he offered to return at a lower rank of needs be. There is no evidence this happened, and the record card I have prices his rank, I can post it here if people want or I can direct them to the online records of the Armada. I am changing his rank to commodore. Tommyxx (talk) 10:27, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * In English speaking navies of the time, commodore wasn't a rank but a temporary title given to the most senior capitain to indicate who was in charge when two or three vessels were acting independently of the squadron or fleet. I could be wrong but I don't think there was an equivalent in the Spanish navy: see this article on the Spanish Wikipedia [] which says that the nearest equivalent is contraalmirante. Again, I'm not sure but I thought contraalmirante was the equivalent of Rear-admiral. What exactly is the Spanish title given in the sources you have seen? Comodoro, Contraalmirante, Chefe de Escuadra, or something else?--Ykraps (talk) 19:17, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * There were two grades of Commodore, 1st Class, and 2nd Class. 2nd Class was a temporary position, 1st class was permanent and had different privileges. In the Spanish navy the rank was called brigadier but on english wikipedia it is commonly referred to as Commodore. For example. when Gravina was asking for MacDonnell to be re-employed, he referred to him as Brigadier, though he was not assigned a ship, or fleet. It was an actual rank. If you would like links I can provide some.Tommyxx (talk) 12:23, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Irish vs. Spanish citizenship
"In the Central Archive of the Spanish Armada he is listed as an Irish citizen. This is incorrect as his baptismal certificate proves he was born in Spain."

This assumes birthright citizenship like in the US, vs. familial citizenship like many other countries. Even if he was born in Spain, both Ireland and Spain may have considered him Irish.96.240.128.124 (talk) 13:19, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:07, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Rayo Ship.jpg