Talk:Envy/Archive 1

Neutrality
The article appears almost hostile and I think it might be worth exploring potential positive aspects of Envy such as driving others to succeed or the desire for equality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.176.138.132 (talk) 03:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Some changes
I've made some changes to the new version of this entry that was made a short while ago. First of all, I've changed the original definition (Parrot & Smith) back to its proper form, as it had been changed a while ago. Second, although I appreciate the addition of some parts, other parts were incorrect. For example, the following sentence gave an argument why the original definition in the text was wrong:

"However, what is envied could also be something that is only of personal importance to the envier, even if what the other person has is of little significance in his or her society, or even seen as a sign of inferior status."

That original defintion is not in conflict with the idea that it should be personally relevant. In fact, an emotion is by definition a personal and subjective response to the world.

More is needed in this article, as many topics regarding envy have not been covered so far (it's appearance in literature, movies, etc.; a distinction between positive and negative forms of envy; the perceived role of envy in communium; the evil eye; the role of culture in envy). Sinas 09:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 03:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of the Ass
I think some one has vandalised the page and it needs to be reverted. --222.154.160.147 (talk) 03:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

A neutral Emotion
I was always told envy could be a neutral emotion. "I envied my fiancee's laptop, and saved to get one of my own." As I was taught envy, can be a negative emotion, but jealousy  definitely is.

'' 'Envy is the wish to have what someone else has, usually without malice, encompassing admiration, or desire for this object or trait.'

'' 'Jealousy is the same as the above definition, except there is malice, spite, and perhaps even revenge involved due to the jealousy.' --Ben414 (talk) 05:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I added some of that.--Patrick (talk) 11:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

After a week, why did you remove the reference to my article on envy as a positive emotion in the intro? Here's the link: http://www.artsandopinion.com/2007_v6_n1/lewis-27.htm Artsandopinion (talk) 16:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Robert Lewis


 * This rather prominent link to a non-notable author's basically uninformative opinion piece is not justifiable per either common sense or Wikipedia's external links policy. Such linkage does not help build an encyclopedia; it just wastes readers' time. / edg ☺ ☭ 18:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you (Edgarde) a user or page editor? Artsandopinion (talk) 19:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Robert Lewis
 * I have over 10,000 edits, about half in article space. Why does this matter? / edg ☺ ☭ 19:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not clear on how this works. You, a user, can remove my link without the consent of the page editor? Who is the page editor? Did you read my article on envy, yes or no? The distinguished writer, Richard Landes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Landes seemed to think it worth commenting on. I'm still not clear what gives you the authority to deem my article 'just wastes readers' time.' http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2007/02/20/in-praise-of-envy. And be forewarned. You unceremoniously removed my link to Martin Heidegger from the WORKS ON HEIDEGGER section. The only person who is fit to make that decision is someone intimately acquainted with the thought of Heidegger, arguably the 20th century's greatest philosopher. If you refuse to reinstate that link, I will take you decision to the highest authority. In light of your prowess on the delete button, it occurs to me that you are more interested in exercising your authority than your mandate to improve wiki. 19:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)Robert Lewis


 * Here's how it works. Anyone can edit Wikipedia. I am an editor. Your edits have been "accepted" (to use your language) by zero editors and removed by one. I will not reinstate the link, and I stand by my opinion that these links give WP:UNDUE prominence to a writer whose opinions&mdash;these articles are essays, not research&mdash;do not need to be included in Wikipedia at all.


 * I would strongly recommend you consider what you are fighting for. I am not the first editor to suggest that you are basically using Wikipedia to promote your website. Suppose I were to write on my self-published website that Envy is the unrecognized fuel of any capitalist economy, and societies whose dominant cultures discourage envy fail to thrive. If true, this is very important. Should this be added to Wikipedia? / edg ☺ ☭ 19:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Envy in the arts
[[Media:Example.ogg]]

The example of envy in the "pair of lovers" at the end of this section is describing jealousy is it not? The spurnned lover does not want the new "secret love", but is afraid of losing his/her lover to the new one. Jdmed (talk) 05:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Justice and Envy
Can someone help me to find information on the subject of justice, feelings of injustice or/and being left out in relation to envy. Can you give me some tips for researching this?

I suggest John Rawls, "A Theory of Justice," and his section on "the problem of envy." ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.10.5 (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Definition
Is envy another word for jealousy?


 * There is some discussion among psychologists and philosophers on this topic, but the research supports a distinction between the two. The main idea is that jealousy results from the fear of losing something, while envy is the desire to have what someone else has (Ben-Ze'ev, 1990; Neu, 1980; Parrott, 1991; Salovey & Rodin, 1989).


 * The experience is also different: Parrott and Smith (1993) found that envy is characterized more by feeling degraded, longing for what the other person has, a motivation to improve and a realization that the felt ill will toward the other person is wrong. Jealousy on the other hand is characterized more by distrust, a fear of loss, feeling lonely and uncertain.


 * In the normal use of the language, jealousy is mainly used for the romantic type of jealousy, but most philosophers and psychologists who do research on this topic do not think that this is the important distinction that seperates them from each other. Sinas 11:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * An interesting interpretation I heard was that envy is the driving factor to do better, especially when we see others surpassing us. It is Jealousy that is the destructive form of it. --71.99.3.112 (talk) 01:07, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * No

Please remove this image.
The image of earrings captioned, "A modern depiction of Envy one of the "Seven Deadly Sins"", doesn't portray the emotion envy and doesn't add anything to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.200.168 (talk) 02:30, December 12, 2008
 * I think this should be discussed. Leujohn  ( talk ) 09:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The user added a picture to the other deadly sin articles but some of them had the merit of being at least somewhat relevant to the article. This is really a stretch. --76.106.30.220 (talk) 05:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd agree that the image doesn't portray the emotion envy, doesn't add anything to the article, and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.77.87.38 (talk) 21:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree this should be removed. Enough discussion.  38.109.88.194 (talk) 14:52, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Envy, Jealousy and aspirational admiration - clarification?
I stand corrected it would seem, but I've always understood Envy as positive and Jealousy negative: Jealousy being seeing another have something or some attribute and resenting them for it. Conversely envy being seeing that attribute or thing someone has and admiring them for it, to aspire or emulate that attribute - almost as a paragon perhaps. For example I 'envy' Richard Branson or Al Pacino, but in a positive aspirational admiration, if you will. Is this true envy or is this called something else?

Am I on my own here in thinking this?

Ideas? comments?... Radiojonty (talk) 18:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Jealousy is technically a fear of losing something you own to another person, while envy exists if someone else has something you lack. Often, jealousy is used to indicate both, but they are distinct emotion experiences; see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/envy/#1.2. Furthermore, two types of envy seem to exist: both have the movtivational goal to level the difference with the superior other, but one does so via a motivation to do better oneself, while the other does so by attempting to pull down the superior other. Envy can thus be a constructive and a destructive emotion. see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19485619. Sinas (talk) 15:52, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Envy, Jealousy, Schadenfreude
There is absolutely no etymological relationship between these words. Simply, 'envy' is Latin, 'jealous' is Greek, and 'Schadenfreude' is Germanic.

Unless I'm crazy, the relevant sentence should be removed.203.184.63.140 (talk) 23:13, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Religion Again
I was surprised that there was no mention of dukkha or "thirst" here (while several books use the translation of "thirst" I noticed the Wiki pages do not use this). In Buddhism, the desires that people have of things they do not or cannot have is one cause of suffering, which parallels the quote in the article from Bertrand Russel. 217.166.94.1 (talk) 07:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

This is permissible and is not called hasad rather it is called ghibtah. ---Ghibath - is more close to Slander than Envy. The term you are referring to is "Rashq" written in Arabic as "رشق". Request you to refer the meaning again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.180.199 (talk) 08:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Psycholoy Student Homework: Review
I think the information you added was overall good. I've read some of the comments of wikipedians have wrote and I definitely agree with the words 'evey' and 'jealousy' having different meanings. They are similar in some ways, but shouldn't be discussed using the same definitions. That said, I like the examples you used to describe situations using both words. I think it's a good first add on to the article. Claire Schuster (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

section
i removed the narcissistic section because people like that only care about themselves and their goal, not what others think of them. Theamazingspiderman20 (talk) 19:07, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not true and the citation was cast iron being the official NPD definition.--Penbat (talk) 19:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The sources given are not good enough. this subject has nothing to do with this article. Theamazingspiderman20 (talk) 20:15, 14 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd have to agree with Penbat. One of the official criteria in the diagnosis of narcissism relates to envy. It could therefore be in the article, just as a large (too large in my opinion) section on envy and religion is now in the article as well. The amazingspiderman20 assumption that narcissists only care about themselves is not true, they care a lot about what other people think about them and how their position/status relates to others. --Sinas (talk) 12:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Envy in religion
Almost half the current article is about envy in religion. Although interesting, I'm not sure whether such an extensive discussion is needed at the primary entry for envy. I would prefer to make a seperate entry for "envy in religion", and really make it a lot briefer in this section. Do others agree, or not? Sinas (talk) 11:18, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Recommended addition

 * Thou can’t not covet; Wanting what others have may be hardwired in the brain June 30th, 2012; Vol.181 #13 (p. 12) Science News 99.119.130.13 (talk) 05:58, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Covetousness is not the same thing as Envy. Wanting what others have is more like Jealousy or Greed. Envy is wanting others to not have what you don't have. --dbabbitt (talk) 12:27, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Some changes
I've made a few changes; - combining 3 sections that were all related to the distinction between envy & jealousy. - I've removed the sentence that stated that there is a controversy about whether envy is an emotion. As far as I am aware of, this is not the case. Envy is a commonly referred to as an emotion and papers on it are for example published in the scientific journal Emotion. Sinas (talk) 11:18, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I deleted the controversy about whether envy is an emotion part. If someone finds this important and wants to add it, explain why there is a controversy and cite good sources. Sinas (talk) 14:37, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Schoeck explains the controversy in his book on envy. He also details evidence that talk of envy was suppressed in the sociological journals of the early 20th century. How much of this drama do you want on a Wikipedia page? --dbabbitt (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Biological side
Is envy an instinct? 89.236.214.174 (talk) 12:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)--67.9.12.197 (talk) 03:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)@ng3l c. ms. pc


 * Yes it is. It has a biological significance since it had some evolutionary aspects of how "envious" behaviors becomes a part of a human psyche/behaviour. "Being better or having better things than others". It is not just isolated from some animals. Shin-chan01 (talk) 08:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Freud has it as part of the ontogenisis of the herd instinct. Others see it as a form of the territorial instinct found in fishes, birds, and various mammals. --dbabbitt (talk) 19:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Invidious
In my research of the word Invidious, it contained Envy as a definition. This is no longer the case. Envy as a definition to the word Invidious is currently obsolete. Why then is Invidious redirected to Envy? --  MF14 23:16, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably because it can't stand on its own as a separate page. Create a section called Invidious and change the redirect to that section.--dbabbitt (talk) 19:09, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The Schoeck Reorg
I'd like to reorganize this page around the table of contents of Schoeck's Envy: A Theory of Social Behavior, adding references to recent scientific studies that show that people are more envious than greedy, and other studies that show how much of compassion is energized by projecting feelings of envy on the object of said compassion. I'm choosing Schoeck's book because I have it sitting in front of me and because it's about 450 pages long (and assumed therefore to be comprehensive). I'm a little worried that it is subjective and meandering, but I am not concerned that the taxonomy of its table of contents won't provide containers for all that is already up on this page. If it doesn't fit, I'll leave the existing section below the reorg, and let somebody else subsume one of Schoeck's sections into an existing section, or whatever they feel is appropriate. In other words, I'm not going to try very hard to tidy things up. Will you feel the need, in your righteous indignation, to destroy my reorg? Why do you not think it is a good idea? Is there another book whose ToC would provide a better structure? --dbabbitt (talk) 12:15, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Having actually looked at the ToC, I see a few problems:
 * You can cite wikipedia-ready content from the book, but the ToC isn't organized well enough to copy-and-paste.
 * The author uses the male gender, while our convention is to use gender-ambiguous or feminine terms
 * The 3rd chapter uses only one subchapter, which looks incomplete in the ToC.--dbabbitt (talk) 19:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

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