Talk:Epica (band)/Archive 1

Is Simone a soprano or mezzo-soprano?
Here, she is listed as a mezzo-soprano, but she is listed in the 'Soprano' article as a soprano.

She is just a mezzo-soprano. Unless she is not telling people something.

About Ariën van Weesenbeek
It states form the Epica website:

For more info on Ariën, please check out God Dethroned's website at: www.goddethroned.com

Just for the record: Ariën's contribution will only be limited to the cd, so we are still in search of a drummer of our own, for more info mail to info@epica.nl

www.epica.nl

He will only be playing drums for the CD. So it's best to list him as a guest member. So plese do not add him as a member or put anything that says he is a new member. He's not the new full time drummer truemetalfan Dec 18, 2006

Epica's third album — The Score ~ An Epic Journey
This is not really there 3rd album. This in fact is for the movie that Mark compesed music for. So I'm going to fix that up a bit.

I would like you to take a look at this:

New What it should really be saying Epica's The Score ~ An Epic Journey — was released in September 2005 many of the songs on the a album were made for a Netherlands movie called Joyride. Though it can also be seen as there thrid album. The album is influenced by the music of Hans Zimmer and Danny Elfman. Characterised by guitarist, Mark Jansen, the album is "Typically Epica. Only without the singing, without the guitars, no bass and no drums".

Old what it should not be saying. Epica's third album — The Score ~ An Epic Journey — was released in September 2005. Not following the style of previous releases, the album is reminiscent of epic film soundtracks and is influenced by the music of Hans Zimmer and Danny Elfman. Characterised by guitarist, Mark Jansen, the album is "Typically Epica. Only without the singing, without the guitars, no bass and no drums"[1]

The Score was never really there third album. All it really is, is a soundtrack for a movie in the Netherlands called Joyride. I think it would better if we put in what it really is so that any one who comes across it and want to pick up there CD's will see it for what it really is. I don't really want them to confuess it for there thrid album when it's not. by turemetalfan Feb 8, 2006 7:03 PM ET
 * OK, feel free to change the article accordingly. -- Lumijaguaari  (моє обговорення)  00:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

About three members
Ad Sluijter, Yves Huts, Coen Janssen could use a page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Turemetalfan (talk • contribs) 04:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

I will begin to compile those pages. --Geniustwin 14:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Updates
I changed a few things, mostly bringing the main section up to date (changes are visible at the end). Also specified what track Simone sings in on The Black Halo, and added a line stating that she does vocals on Blucher from Ghost Opera. Also mentioned the switch in labels to Nuclear Blast, though I think it could be a bit more informative than I made it. Oh well. Tirentu (talk) 03:45, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Added that Simone does backup vocals for Ghost Opera's Japanese bonus track "Season's End" which also will be on Kamelot's reissue for the US market. ALSO: We might want to think about a "Guest Appearances" section, as most prominent singers of this genre often lend their voices and it'd be easier to keep track of in the long run. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 14:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Added a music videos section with "Never Enough" as their current only video. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 15:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Revert
I tried to give some help to the article but the guy named UnlivedPhalanx (or whatever) reverted my edit. The album names are italic and we don't need to use break for two genres in infobox. I'm gonna rollback.--Nazzzz (talk) 12:16, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as Epica is a hotly contested page, always remember to cite your changes. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism in the Style section
Copy:

"...with some songs being epic, grand and majestic and others more subdued and introspective."

Original:

"The songs are sometimes epic, grand and majestic, other times more subdued and introspective." Source

I'm not an expert on plagiarism but it seems as though using the exact same words in a description without writing it completely as a quotation qualify. In any case I view this as sloppy writing.

-Krono45 (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Epica isn't gothic or progressive.
I'm deleting gothic and progressive because they aren't a part of these genres.

No they are not gothic. But they have References to it. As for progressive they are progressive not in the way you may think but the music is progressive. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 01:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Fifth Studio Album
Is that really the fifth? I would call it the 4th perhaps. Unless they really count The scour(sp) as the 4th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Another question that's been bugging me the past few weeks: is the fifth studio album the same release as the Classical Conspiracy live album, or are they two separate releases/albums? The website mentions that they've been working at the Gate studio in Wolfsburg "to record the new full length studio album" - yet with a live album, there's really very little need to be doing studio work, now is there? Are there two releases coming up, or just one? Ahmahl Kotay (talk) 06:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

EPICA ISNT DEATH PUNK
im just gonna say this. its not okay. deal with it please. --86.52.30.250 (talk) 10:12, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

EPICA ISN'T GOTHIC OR PROGRESSIVE!!
EPICA ISN'T GOTHIC OR PROGRESSIVE SO STOP ADDING THESE GENRES.--95.65.180.214 (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

How about you find info that says that before you go and start editing ever thing out. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Gothic metal: Tristania - Lethean River

Progressive metal: Dream Theater - Pull Me Under

Symphonic metal: Therion - The Rise Of Sodom And Gomorrah

Just go and listen to these song and then "Seif Al Din" by Epica.--95.65.137.102 (talk) 12:57, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Do not do that again. No matter weather you agree with it or not they both of References. --Epica124 (talk) 20:13, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

You know if you are going to edit pages why doin't you stop changing you're IP address. --Epica124 (talk) 20:53, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

SERIOUSLY DUDE, CHILL OUT, SYMPHONIC METAL CANNOT CONTAIN DEATH GRUNTS. LISTEN 'THERION' THAT'S PURELY SYMPHONIC, IN OUR TIMES THERE'S LOT OF BANDS THAT MIXES GOTHIC METAL WITH SYMPHONIC METAL.


 * First off, if you're going to tell people to chill out, then follow your own advice. People who are shouting and displaying capital letters in their typing need to "chill out" or so to speak. Secondly, symphonic metal can contain death grunts if the symphonic metal musicians want it to. Most symphonic metal bands with death grunts are cross-genre bands (such as Adagio and Hollenthon), but that doesn't mean that bands that are exclusiverly symphonic metal can't utilize death grunts. Saying that it can't contain death grunts is just like saying progressive metal can't contain hammered dulcimers. Backtable Speak to Me  about what I have done  22:01, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Symphonic metal can't have grunts? What about Haggard? What about EPICA? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.15.202.12 (talk) 15:35, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Genre
Epica is not power metal or gothic metal. So please stop editing them as something they are not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Turemetalfan (talk • contribs) 23:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

No, there is a large amount of citations that they are gothic. Also; they use male brutal vocals, in symphonic metal male vocals aren't used. So I'm addin it...--85.101.101.151 (talk) 19:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * To the IP removing the cited information pertaining to genres from the article, removing cited information unless you can prove it is not true is considered vandalism and will be dealt with accordingly. -MBK004 21:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You want your proof fine here's all your proof www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=6716 http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/groupe-groupe-Epica-l-en.html http://musicbrainz.org/artist/21985b14-1b0d-44fe-b357-310b29bba510.html http://www.metalstorm.ee/bands/band.php?band_id=208&bandname=Epica http://www.thegauntlet.com/bio/1228/Epica.html Heck here they are listed as prog metal Not Gothic. I wonder why could be that they are not Gothic.

Five to four showing they are not Gothic metal and have never been Gothic metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 23:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I see that you've given up on the list of gothic metal bands and are taking your vandalism elsewhere. Metal-archives, musicbrainz.org, metalstorm.ee and spirit-of-metal.com are all user submitted websites where anyone can register, login and edit information. For all we know, you have an account on all four sites. Thegauntlet.com doesn't look like a reliable source either from a quick glance but it does explicitly mention that the variety of Epica's compositions range "from unadulterated gothic-metal to ballads" and further notes that the group is "counted as the vanguard of international gothic-metal." So much for your so-called proof. In any case, not a single one of those websites you mention rules out the possibility that Epica is a gothic metal band. Merely tagging them with one label doesn't mean they cannot fit in under another. --Bardin (talk) 15:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that if you want to claim something about a band you need to listen to them first. I've seen these guys in concert for years if they aren't symphonic metal then I don't know what they are. Now you can say they have Gothic influences, but so does Nightwish and that doesn't make either band "Gothic metal" it JUST means they have Gothic influences. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 14:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The Metal Crypt even list's them as symphonic metal and not Gothic metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 21:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And a band cannot possibly be both? For the record, the metal crypt tagged the band as gothic metal in this review.--Bardin (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone listened to this band? symphonic metal, not Gothic metal. Mark Jansen left a Gothic metal band to do symphony metal! Here's an excerpt from their OFFICIAL BIO: "The Dutch female fronted symphonic metal band EPICA was founded in 2002. Mark Jansen had left After Forever to pursue his own dreams..." Proof? Here is their official website bio: http://epica.nl/?page=band&show=bio End of story, let's end this argument with that. Thanks. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 01:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Your interpretation of what you hear is clearly not shared by everyone. You speak of symphonic metal as if it is incompatible with gothic metal, as if a band cannot possibly be both. I am not afraid to admit that I have not listened to Epica. I do not need to. I am as neutral as one can possibly be in this matter. I will however direct your attention to this interview where bandmember Ad Sluijter describes their music as a bridge between power and gothic metal and this interview where Mark Jansen himself says that he is fine with "a lot of people" calling their music gothic metal. If two members of the band, including the founder and principal Mark Jansen, do not have any problems whatsoever with this gothic metal label, then I do not see what grounds any of you have to deny it. --Bardin (talk) 09:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

You raise some good points Bardin, then if that is the case (which I did verify your links) we need to re-write the opening section to label them as a symphonic metal band with gothic influences since that is what they are according to both your information and my own. This discussion of genre has to be settled so that it is factually most accurate one way or the other, I welcome thoughts into the revision regarding the genre so we can settle this discussion once and for all. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 15:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes but the infobox looks so messy when there is lots of cites. So heres the cites:


 * The above was added by an anonymous 88.234.16.5 if anyone's wondering. I agree that the infobox looks messy with all those citations. My preference is to have a description in the body of the article about the band's style of music with references fully supporting any claim. That way, the infobox need only reflect whatever is in that article. We'll have to wait until the article page gets unprotected before any of us can do that though. The protection came a tad bit late given that the vandal making all those reverts has already been banned for 72 hrs. Also cheers to UnlivedPhalanx for being a good sport and changing your mind when you saw those references. I believe you might be the first person I've come across on wikipedia to have done that. --Bardin (talk) 09:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

If you have valid information no use being a bad sport, we just need to ensure accuracy so that Wikipedia continues to be one of the best online sources of information. I think that if more people worked together we could get a lot more done than otherwise =) Once the protection is removed we'll get to work ensuring that Epica's genre is correctly detailed and we can back and forth to ensure it's where it needs to be. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've created a new section for the band's style and filled in three paragraphs worth of information, all fully referenced by reliable sources. That's pretty much all that I'm interested in doing for this article. Just a piece of advice for anyone interested in working on the rest of the article: use references. The section on the band's history needs citations for verifiability. I note that there is one reference that use the cd notes to an album from the band. I've changed the format of this reference to match Template:Cite cd notes but since I do not have the album in my possession, I cannot look up the cd notes to fill in the blanks. So if can, please do so and complete the missing entries - the title of the notes, the publisher and catalogue number. I believe all that info should be printed somewhere on the cd notes. Cheers. --Bardin (talk) 03:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

And there is your main problem. Your edited a page for a band you don't now a thing about. It's would be like me edited a the page about Jazz music or Kenny G. I don't know a thing about it and I don't care how many reliable sources I have how do I check to know they are even telling the truth if I don't even listen to Jazz or Kenny G who plays Smooth jazz. I leave it to people who know about that music and know about Kenny G.

Another example I have never watched The O.C. but should I edit it to say it's a sci-fi show just because some reliable sources says it is? That's giving false info on something I don't know a thing about. I do know about One Tree Hill (TV series) and I will edit out any one that would try to list it as a sci-fi show even if a reliable sources wants to say other wise. Why because ever one who has watched the show knows it's a Teen Drama and ever one agrees on that.

Your a bands whole page when you don't even listen to the band and only know what someone else told you about them. I watch One Tree Hill I have all four senses on DVD I know a lot about the show I can edit it because I know what I'm talking about. I can't do the same with The O.C., Jazz music or the page about Kenney G no matter what reliable sources because I have know why of knowing if those sources are stating facts about the subject at hand.

It's like starting a page that about how 2+2=4 and then someone else coming a long and saying that MSNBC says that 2+2=1. Well seeing as how all the math books math teachers you and I says other wise MSNBC would be wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 18:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You're back. I will say the same thing I've mentioned many times before: this is wikipedia, not an online forum. Your personal knowledge or opinion of a band is and should be completely irrelevant. Whether you're familiar or not with the band's music should have no bearing on the edits you make to the band's article. We use reliable sources and only reliable sources. No original research. Try to put yourself in my perspective or the perspective of anyone else who has not heard the band. Why on earth would I or anyone else go by the opinion of some anonymous user on the internet like yourself when we can rely on the opinion of more reliable sources with a known identity, including professional reviewers as well as the band members themselves? Are you suggesting to me that all these reviewers and the band members themselves do not and have not listened to the band's music and you're the only person in the whole world who has? Of course not. Mark Jansen listens to his own music. He composes and performs his own music and if he doesn't have a problem with a lot of people calling his music gothic metal, then I do not see where you get off thinking that you know better about his music that he does. --Bardin (talk) 01:05, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The so called reliable sources are opinion based and are no more importent then your or mine. And you are not getting the point of what Mark Jansen is saying. He dose not have a problem with it because he can't change there minds.

"On top of that you are "Epica uses a "trademark of many symphonic and gothic metal bands" in contrasting "two extremes, death grunts and brutality on one side, airy female melodiousness on the other."

Here's The Project Hate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mJk6hD9czY Shocking the use brutality death grunts and female melodiousness voacals to. Yet they are death metal.

"attraction ultimately hinges on exploring the sonic contrasts of light and dark; the punishing intensity of those elephantine guitar riffs and hyperactive drumming cast against the soaring, layered sweetness of the orchestrated strings and keyboards."

Yeah them and evet other metal band that dose that to Ram-Zet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTTUP43nq9k

"The group is also known to employ human choirs and orchestras with additional embellishments such as spoken word recitals and lyrics in Latin and Arabic"

I can name so many metal bands that do that. That is it not something that Gothic metal just uses.

And again I will say knowing your subject makes it much more easy to edit a page. But going by ever thing you say I should go Edit the Kenny G page to what ever the so called reliable sources. Reviews are opinions ever one has them and reviews from so called reliable sources mean jack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 01:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to repeat myself again and again. You obviously have no understanding or do not want to understand the policies and guidelines of wikipedia regarding verifiability, original research, neutral point of view and reliable sources. --Bardin (talk) 06:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

You keep bringing up this reliable sources. If I where to do that I could go and edit any page no matter if I knew the subject or not. I have my reliable soruces. The problem is most of them can be linked to because shock and horror they come from a book about Epica and that talks about the band. On top of that I'm going to add another thing. I have seen the Harry Potter movies. But I have never read the books So in what why dose me using a so called reliable source help me understand the books.

If I want to understand them I will read the books. Then any facts about the characters will come right from the book. That is your source. You don't go and edit the page about Star Wars characters with out knowing about them. Anakin is Darth Vader. So Rolling Stone mag can go and write what ever they want about how Anakin is not Darth Vader and they would be wrong. Why because the movies and all the fans say other wise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

To the above poster, I think Bardin has done more than enough writing and citation to satisfy even the most devout fans like myself to a more than satisfactory extent. For all intents and purposes I think this finishes the discussion on genre. Unless further citation is presented. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 00:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

No he has not. He dose not even listen to the band. He knows nothing about them. That's like asking a Star Trek fan to edit the Star Wars. Unless they have watched the movies they are not going to know a thing about it. He does not know a thing about the band and yet he feels he's the best person to edit it. No sorry it dose not work that why. Either he either needs to show that he knows the band or putt it back the why it was Heck here's yet another page that discredits him http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3068 http://www.proggnosis.com/MUSIC_DBArtist.asp?txtArtistID=3483

So yet two more sites shotting it down. On top of that I have the The Road To Paradiso book to back me up to. That is so far and beyond a better source then what he has come up with. And the very fact that he feels that the history needs Citations. Well guess what they really did get the name Epica from the band Kamelot. They really were at one time called Sahara Dust and really did have Helena Iren Michaelsen as a member. It's all right there in the book and on there home page. All of that is fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 01:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh and yet another site not listing them as Gothic metal. Wow so they are listed is Symp and Prog metal but not Gothic Metal I wonder why? http://www.musicaldiscoveries.com/reviews/epica2008.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 02:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The book is the best source, but all you're saying has already been said. They are a symphonic metal band with Gothic influences. As a big fan of both Epica and Kamelot, I can say I honestly think that's the best category for them. I even have tickets to see Epica in 24 days, I know the group and there shouldn't be a big issue with their genre. What genre do you think they are, one sentence will be sufficient since you obviously cannot make a coherent argument. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 03:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Just symphonic metal. No Gothic metal at all. If you want to add prog metal go for it. But there is nothing Gothic in there music. The whole male growls and female voacls other bands have done that and do do that. Yet they are not Gothic metal. The symphonic metal dose not come from just Gothic Metal heck most of the bands that play it are not Gothic Metal in fact. There influences are from power metal, death metal, and prog metal bands. Look at most of the major bands Mark listens to. They are all power, death, and prog metal bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok well, I'm seeing Mr. Jansen on the 25th, I'll ask him when I see him what genre his band is and report back. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 22:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 23:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Well sense you people seem to jump on every thing that Allmusic.com says I guess Epica is now prog metal to. And before you go saying they don't. Look at the style. Which I will add the whole problem with using the site is that they have a band like Kamelot listed as black and death metal. Yeah such a great site. But hey if what they says is true then we might as well go for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 02:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

For the reasons listed above I agree that Allmusic is a terrible site without any kind of editorial supervision. We should not be using this website for any major references. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 04:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

All music Guide and Rockdetector.com can be used as References when they go against each so much then this whole page is going back to what it was. In fact many of these so called good sites to use are dont agree or add up with each other.

All music lists Epica as prog metal Rockdetector.com as Gotihc metal

So whose right? And you can't say both.

It is best to use the Nightwish page for Musical style. In other words they list the other genres that they play in the Musical style part of the page. The genre on the other hand is kept as power metal and symphonic. The point is All music Guide.com and Rockdetector.com don't match up with each other. You can say one is more right then the other. If so then it is going against ever thing that has been said about both sites.

So which is it here? Which site is going to be used as the point of Refernece. If it's AMG.com then that makes Epica prog metal. If it's RD.com then they are Gothic metal. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 17:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think they are BOTH incorrect and we should use a more reliable source with professionals, since obviously neither of these sites employ professionals familiar with music. UnlivedPhalanx (talk) 21:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sigh. You were the one who added the progressive metal label onto the infobox in the first place. Clearly, you did not really thought that the band is prog metal but did so seemingly out of spite: If this is edited. Then I will have shown how you people just make up the rules as you go. It appears to me that you were practically inviting and daring anyone else to remove the label, just so that you can a-ha, I have shown you etc. Nobody took the bait though and after a week, you decided to remove the progressive metal label that you yourself added and in the process also removed the gothic metal label. Which leads me to think that this really isn't about the prog metal label but the gothic metal label that you have for some strange reason been long opposed to.
 * Now you have created this dichotomy between Allmusic and Rockdetector and suggest that they are contradicting each other. The only basis for your claim rests in the belief than an omission is an assertion. There is no statement anywhere on Allmusic or Rockdetector that says "if we do not call a band X, then they are certainly not X." Nobody would make such an absurd statement but that is the basis for your suggestion that the two sites are contradicting each other.
 * Contrary to what you seem to think, Rockdetector is not the only site that describes Epica as gothic metal. There are eight different reviews of Epica's releases on Lords of Metal and all but one of those reviews tag the band as gothic metal. The only exception is the wholly orchestral Score album. There are four different reviews of Epica's releases on Metal Observer. Two tags them as gothic metal and the other two tags them as symphonic metal. There are four different reviews of Epica's releases on Metal Reviews. Two tags them as just gothic metal while the other two tags them as both symphonic and gothic metal. There are no tags use on Metal Coven but all three reviews they have of Epica's music describe them as both gothic and symphonic. All of these sites are every bit as reliable a source as the more mainstream Allmusic and Rockdetector. What about the ever popular but unreliable Encyclopaedia Metallum? Well, big surprise there: Epica is also tag as both symphonic and gothic metal. Some of these sites also describe them as power metal btw. Do you still want to insist that Rockdetector is wrong to label Epica as gothic metal when so many sites that specialise in heavy metal music - including the Metal Archives - tag them as gothic metal too? Give it up already.
 * What about prog metal? Bear in mind that this was something that you introduced into the infobox. Not me. Is Allmusic.com the only site that tags them as prog metal? Well, apparently not. The Prog Archives includes Epica as a prog metal band. I was not able to find any other site that tags them as prog metal in my casual google search but there might well be others that I have missed. The Prog Archives is not generally considered a reliable site for reviews since they too feature user submitted work like the Metal Archives but the entry for Epica does specifically state that "the band was cleared for addition by the prog metal team." Don't ask me why. I listen to Dream Theater but like I've mentioned before, I have not heard Epica myself.
 * I am completely aware that Allmusic and Rockdetector are capable of making mistakes just like any other website. Nothing is perfect. Tough luck. We make do with what we have. I don't think Jeff Beck deserves to be on the list of heavy metal bands but whoops, there he is. What's the source? Oh, it's Allmusic. Do you see me making a fuss about it? No. If Allmusic says that Epica is prog metal, then that's good enough for wikipedia just as it is good enough for Jeff Beck to be on the list of heavy metal artists. Do I really need to mention verifiability, original research and reliable sources again? I'm reverting your change to the article. If you or anyone else want to add power metal to the infobox, fine. Just don't remove any of the genres again merely because you don't agree with the reliable sources being used. --Bardin (talk) 10:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

It's funny but you don't liket to work with any one. On top of that you hav admited yourself that you don't listn Epica. On top of that you have also said this A)All music has made mistakes. Your right they have made mistakes. They have made a lot of mistakes. Like call some bands Black and Death Metal Ie Kamelot, and Nightwish. Rockdetector.com has done the samething.

Use the Nightwish page as the exmpale of how to make a page. Use the infobox for the one gerne. Use the music style part for the others. Learn to work with people and not just say well the the reliable sources say. It's there opinoin and paid or not it is still there opinion. You can be a doctor writing of a medical mag for all I care it does not mean you are a more reliable source. It just mean you a writer that's it.

You have missed the whole point of this place. So have the people that run this place. Insteand of working with other people. You all work against people. You don't like to come to any agrements with any one unless they see thing's your way. Sorry I don't see things your way because you are not right here. Now I have said you can leave the Gothic Metal in the music style part. But do to the fact that not one of the so called reliable sources can agree with each other on the genre that Epica is leave it as is. Other wise the infobox will start to look like the Children of Bodom and Wintersun pages. There infobox's have so many genres starting to be listed that it makes look like a mess. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 14:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to waste my time going through this with you all over again. I'm not going to waste my time going through the wikipedia's guidelines and policies again. You obviously do not like wikipedia. You've gone on tantrums threatening to leave this site for good yet you still return despite being repeatedly blocked so many times. You cannot even log in to your username because you have actually been blocked indefinitely. So many sources all over the internet all describe Epica as gothic metal and yet still you dare insist that your point of view is the one and only right one. Pity. --Bardin (talk) 15:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Yup just as I thought You don't like to work with any one but youself. I see how you work. You go around editing things that you don't have clue about. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 18:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You are so obstinate. Epica"s music is both symphonic and gothic metal.--85.97.42.171 (talk) 11:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Stop there. In Nightwish's infobox, there is two genres: symphonic metal and power metal. The content about their music tell that their music is symphonic metal with a lot of influence from power metal. Their debut album Angels Fall First was a power metal album with some hints from folk metal, gothic metal and of course symphonic metal. Then in Oceanborn and Wishmaster, it changed into symphonic-influent power metal with a progressive sound. For Century Child, Once and Dark Passion Play; their music went more symphonic but still featured lots of power metal elements. As for Epica, their music features more gothic metal elements so deleting it is out of question. But we cannot delete symphonic metal there, as it is clearly seen that they also has influence from it and decribe their music as symphonic metal. This is proved by sources that are reliable therefore you cannot delete gothic metal.--Nazzzz (talk) 04:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

And you were also the one who was changeing there style to opera metal. You also where adding Nightwish as prog metal and ever other kind of metal under the sun. --98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That is out our topic. Epica's style is between symphonic metal and gothic metal. You cannot change it because it is proved by references.--Nazzzz (talk) 10:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * For the record, 98.224.211.86 is the sock of a user that has been blocked indefinitely from editing on wikipedia. This sock cannot be blocked indefinitely too because it is a dynamically allocated IP address but it can be blocked temporarily and that is precisely what just happened. --Bardin (talk) 14:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Epica's wikipedia is at best laughable. Epica has nothing to do with Gothic metal, they don't have the typical Gothic metal sound, neither the atmosphere, neither the lyrics. How in the hell they're power metal? They're guitarrist is one of the worst I've ever seen. If Mark Jansen wants so desperately be Gothic metal, I would say that is pretty sad. They're symphonic metal period. But keep it this way, wikipedia is not particulary known for being correct in band's genres (ex: Within Temptation's "The Heart of Everything" being symphonic metal XD). Well, if anyone is so worried about the sources, someday Mark will say they're death metal, and some creepy fan will write that here - would that be true too? Whatever... 81.84.204.173 (talk) 16:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

According to the Gothic metal page from wikipedia, gothic metal music has a "dark atmosphere" and it's "a combination of the darkness and melancholy"; the lyrics are "epic and melodramatic" and "sorrowful and depressive". Epica does not have any of these characteristics. Most of their music is fast paced (a reason why some people think they are power metal), in contrast to the gothic metal roots (Doom metal) and style, and the most important is that their lyrics are anything but melancholy, sorrowful or depressive. I'll just take some random lyrics to illustrate it:


 * Burn to a cinder (Design your universe):
 * I'll never let them stake you down
 * Take you down
 * I'll fight to find a way


 * Martyr of the free world (Design your universe):
 * I will say what I think
 * I will do what I say
 * When liberty seems out of reach
 * We'll fight for our freedom of speech


 * Menace of vanity (The divine conspiracy):
 * We don't care what you say
 * We'll never join the games you play
 * We won't bleed for all your sins
 * We never followed your way now so
 * We don't care anymore
 * How you'll perform your last encore


 * Façade of reality (The phantom agony):
 * People created religious inventions
 * To give their lives a glimmer of hope
 * And to ease their fear of dying
 * And people created religious ascensions
 * To subject the others and to enslave, just to further enrich themselves

And these are not the best examples of "non melancholic" lyrics. Most of their lyrics is actually about resistance and overcoming, improvement of oneself. There is also an interview with Simone Simons in which she says that they are Symphonic metal: "Nowadays gothic seems to have become a word to generalize metal music with female vocals. It is hard to describe, a lot of people think we are a gothic metal band, but when we played at real gothic festivals we were the odd one out. I would like to describe EPICA as symphonic metal with female voices." http://www.rockeyez.com/interviews/int-epica-simons.html. She makes a very nice definition of what people think that Gothic metal is: metal music with female vocals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodrigo170988 (talk • contribs) 13:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well then if you can find sources that point to them not being Gothic Metal please do post them. Until then it stands. --Epica124 (talk) 01:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, he did supply a source for his claims, with the rockeyes interview. Anyways, While Simone Simons doesn't necessarily want to label herself as such in this interview, there are three sources in the musical style section which back up the assertion that they are gothic metal. The three genres have been what appears to have been reached by consensus, and while the championing of Epica not being gothic metal could be pursued, keep in mind that the music itself is more important than assigning genres to said music. I'm not saying this is what is taking place with this suggestion at all, but so many people get sucked up into the pigeon-holing that it gets old after a while. Happy editing. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 05:05, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I guess the most important are the ideas, not the authority (a well know fallacy). And even if you want to rely on these authorities you couldn't, they are conflicting and imprecise.
 * If you can define what is gothic metal and if that definition embraces Epica then it would be OK to label them as such. But, as I said before, and apparently was ignored, Wikipedia itself defines gothic metal in a way that it makes impossible to label Epica as it. If you want to call Epica gothic at least change the gothic metal page as well, otherwise it's just ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodrigo170988 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

About the band template
"The Score - An Epic Journey" is not the 3rd album of Epica. It's not even a regular album. It might be in a "soundtrack" category in the band template (If you don't understand, sorry, I don't English).

See my suggestion:

187.40.202.86 (talk) 22:09, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that's a reasonable request. I have changed the template to look like that. Thanks. Backtable Speak to meconcerning my deeds. 23:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * looks fine, I went ahead and converted it to WP:HLIST above. thank you. Frietjes (talk) 20:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

YOU WANT THE PROOF THAT EPICA'S GOTHIC METAL ? WELL LOOK AT THIS.
go to 'www.google.com' then, type 'www.epica.nl'(which is the official site of Epica) and there will be clearly said in the description of the site 'Official site of the Dutch gothic metal band. News, biography, discography, audio samples, reviews, show dates, tour diary, photos, wallpapers, and forum.'


 * So what if an official site says that. Official websites do not count as reliable sources on wikipedia. Also, it's just like a band adamantly denying their music as being nu-metal, yet being categorized as that anyways. There is seriously no need for genre warrioring. Backtable Speak to Me  about what I have done  22:09, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This isn't a reliable source! But anyway... now the official site of Epica speaks about Symphonic metal, not Gothic. You know, I'm italian, and in my language this situation is called "zappa sui piedi". That's hilarious! Star840 10:55, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Technically first-party resources such as the band's website are not to be relied on. Reliable resources are from secondary, published resources such as newspaper articles. This conversation is from 2009 however. Vortiene (talk) 12:33, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Genres in the infobox
Symphonic is the main genre, confirmed by the majority of the sources. Gothic, Prog, Death & co. are only influences. To maintain neutrality, it must be taken only symphonic (the only genre on which there is absolute consensus) in the infobox and specify the other genre within the article. Star840 10:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Star840 (talk • contribs)
 * It is not necessarily absolute consensus, but if one or two reliable sources say one genre, while 100 other reliable sources say another, the former genre is probably not all that applicable. Vortiene (talk) 12:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * In fact the majority of the sources mentions Symphonic metal as the main genre, while the other genres are referred to as influences. Some sources cite other genres as main, but these are in the minority compared to those prefer Symphonic. As I've already said, it would be more neutral include only Symphonic in the infobox and specify the various influences in the article. I think this solution is the one with broader consensus, also judging from this talk page. Do you agree? Star840 (talk) 13:10, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I can tell you that listing the "most common" genres this band is classified as rather than "the single most common" genre will be most agreeable for future editors. Even if we agree to classify them as just Symphonic metal on the infobox, others will most likely elect to modify this in the future. I can keep an eye on this however. Vortiene (talk) 13:27, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Perfect. Thank you! Star840 (talk) 13:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Please Refrain from Genre Warrioring
All the current genres present on the article's classification (symphonic metal, gothic metal, progressive metal, and power metal) have been referenced reliably within the article itself. Please do not remove these genres. If new genres are to be added, reliable references (ideally multiple references) pointing towards these genres should be presented, either on the style section of the article or on this talk page. Vortiene (talk) 17:52, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * To put this into perspective, as discussed earlier in the talk page, removing reliably referenced information from an article is considered vandalism, so please refrain from doing this. Vortiene (talk) 18:03, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
 * And Melodic death metal    Star840 15:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

New album
No news has been posted on the real name of the album. So is it just a place holder? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:CFAD:2E70:1467:29D2:4299:ABE8 (talk) 01:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * There are no references for it at all. Bands always make a number of announcements around new songs and future releases. What we need is a title and release date + confirmation by the record company. None of that is available as of yet - removing that section. Karst (talk) 08:58, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Just checked this, apologies for not doing so before my edit. I have included references, although unsure as to whether the Wikipedia community will agree with how valid they are. I believe the sources I've cited are fairly strong, especially with a video interview and release of album artwork, although the record label do not appear to have said anything on the matter. Sprusr (talk) 08:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that's a lot better. Vortiene (talk) 15:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Associated acts
How is that working these days? Rob is from Delain and Arien did play drums on one of Delains albums so would that not count them as an Associated act? Delain123 (talk) 11:25, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

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Editing activity at Simone Simons
I have some thoughts on some recent activity there, and want to reach a consensus on the matter. Is it acceptable to describe Simons as a "model, influencer and blogger" in the intro? For more details, and to comment on the matter, see Talk:Simone Simons. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 02:52, 1 June 2020 (UTC)