Talk:Epirus/Archive 1

Map with Tribes
I removed it from the page. it's higly inaccurate. For example, Lissus, today's Lezha, way up Albanian North, is marked as a 'Greek' tribe. Let's not get involved in map making for political purposes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 15:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Epirus/Iberos?
Given that P/B are similar sounds, Epirus ~ Eberos/Iberos. Does this relate to the Hebrews/Apiru, and/or Caucasian/Spanish Iberians?

pure coincidence. 24.23.131.247 19:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)tsourkpk

POV "award"
Saying that northern epirus was awarded to Albania by the great powers is wrong in my opinion. That was Albanian territory, and the great powers actually wanted to split up all the lands of albania among Greece, Italy, and Serbia. There would have been no Albanian state except for the intervention of Woodrow Wilson. Albanians lost some lands during that time, they did not gain any through "awards". --Dori 00:05, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * I think it is an award,as it was under Greek control twice and given to Albania by two treaties, and also, as there is large Greek population in Northern Epirus, living there for thousands of years. It was not Albanian land, but Greek. What the "powers" really wanted to do, was creating states by taking land from others, to control the local area. And this practice has been followed in the Balkans many times. Michael IX the White 10:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael IX the White (talk • contribs)


 * You occupied it twice, and they didn't let you keep it. You mean minorities like the Albanian Arvanites?

Keep it Fake (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

60000 greeks live in Southern Albania. Go and count them if you want. The Greek Government has started giving money to the people so they can call themselves greek during the population registration. I have visited the region and they are so few that 3 schools in the Greek language that I visited had just one pupil and one teacher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.242.226 (talk) 10:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

1911 E.B. article
@Wetman. The only groups of people in Greece having to do something with Albania are the Albanian immigrands and the Arvanites whose language is close to albanian. There is no single Tsamis(=Albanian of Epirus)(<Cameria, albanian for Epirus) living in Greece since the early 50's. This is undisputable, even for Albanians. Check your sources.

These "immigrants" were mentioned in 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. Has ethnic cleansing then removed all traces of them? Why then all that remains is to suppress all mention of their former existence. Not that I care one way or the other... Wetman 00:40, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * The Albanians in northern Greece were not immigrants. After the borders were drawn, they were left in Greece, and there was ethnic cleansing, but not to the point of denying their existance. I have no idea what this anon is talking about, but at least I, as an Albanian, dispute his "This is undisputable, even for Albanians". Dori | Talk 01:17, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)


 * I should also add that the Greek government makes many ridiculous claims when it comes to other ethnicities. For example they claim that all Albanian nationals in Albania who believe in the Orthodox faith are Greeks. I wouldn't give much credance to them when they make such claims. Dori | Talk 01:30, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)


 * "For example they claim that all Albanian nationals in Albania who believe in the Orthodox faith are Greeks" This is not true. Give us some sources that the Greek government has ever stated this. - George, June 28, 2004


 * If I could read Greek I would find them. As I haven't kept track of them, I haven't added them to the article. For more ridiculous claims by the Greek government have a look at these stats:
 * Ethinicities: Greek 98%, other 2%
 * note: the Greek Government states there are no ethnic divisions in Greece
 * Language: Greek 99% (official)

Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC) If you can't speak/read greek, then how do you know what you believe that the greek government said or did is not propaganda by the media? Just curious. The number of Albanians has grown in the recent years due to work immigration. Ever since Greece has entered the EU, the country seems to have had a influx of workers from Albania. I can attest to this, I was in greece pre-EU and have visited after EU. The majority of Albanian people are not minority leftovers from 1950s, but recently legal and illegal entries. The demographics have changed considerably, since early 1990s. Also, how do you know you aren't looking at outdated data? ApplesnPeaches Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well there are between 500,000 (just illegal Albanian immigrants, admitted by the gov't, I can probably find this reference if you really want me to dig) - 1,000,000 (if you include all) Albanians living in Greece. Even if you take the number of Albanians that the Greek government says live in Greece it will come out to more than 2%. Add to that all the other immigrants (Turks, Kurds, Bulgarians, etc), and I am sure that you can come out with more than 2%. Do you need more proof that the Greek government is a pretty bad when it comes to lies? Dori | Talk 03:20, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

immigrants are not minorities! and You didn't find the claim that you have been asked.

After so much work by so many people, it does seem tiresome that User:Penfold has inserted. I have replaced the text with cut-and-paste from the 1911 E.B.. Then I reverted. Is there so much text remaining from the 1911 E.B. do you think? Wetman 21:39, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC) Dori, "immigrants" do not equal native "minority groups". Why do you insist that immigrants are similar to native minority groups? That would then mean that there are minority groups of Greeks throughout the world. So, would Australia have to claim minority groups within the migrant groups that arrived there? Is the Australian government lying if they make no reference to any minority groups? I think this EU business is going to become very messy, esp since national sentiments are very high amongst the members. Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Map question
Do we have a map showing all of Epirus? I find it somewhat unbalanced to claim the area stretches across a border, and then show only one side of that border. Aliter 15:55, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

POV issues of "non-Greekness"
I would like to remind to all that this online encyclopaedia is not supposed to be a means for promoting nationalistic propaganda. It is well known that many people in Albania are claiming half of the Balkans! This however does not give them the right to use history for this purpose. Even more when in their effort to do so they resort to their own, hmmmm special version of history. Some examples: 1. In previous versions of this page it is claimed that "Western sources" were considering Epirus as Albanian. Which sources and when? 2. In previous versions of this page it is claimed that the people of Epirus did not participate in the Trojan War as a proof of their "non-Greekness". However at the time of the Trojan War the term Helenes (Greeks) was not used even by the Greeks themselves. The people that participated in the war were the Achaeans, one of the Greek tribes. The Greeks of Epirus ware of the Dorian tribes that appeared on the scene a bit later. 3. In previous versions of this page it is claimed that the people of Epirus did not participate in the Persian war as a proof of their "non-Greekness". However, even the Spartans, did not participate in the battle of Marathon (in the first expedition of the Persians against Greece) for their own reasons despite the desperate calls from the Atheneans. Furthermore the Spartans did not participate at all in the whole campaign of Alexander the Great against the Persian empire although this was probably the biggest Greek campaign ever and was the reason that the Greek culture was so widely spread in antiquity. Does this make the Spartans less Greek than all the others that participated?

One can find numerous such deliberate inaccuracies but the point is that Wikipedia is not supposed to be a place for people that serve political purposes. So please fellow Albanians leave the ancient Greek, Roman e.t.c. histories alone. It would not help you anyway. Because even if the Greeks had not anything to do with Epirus in the ancient years the Albanians did not have anything to do with it either. In fact the Albanian nation is such a recent development (13th century BC or even later if I am not wrong) that to try to base any claims on historical facts is rather fruitless. (The desperate attempts of the Albanians to trace the origin of their nation to the ancient Illyrians did not find much support outside Albania).

Please respect the truth.


 * "The desperate attempts of the Albanians to trace the origin of their nation to the ancient Illyrians did not find much support outside Albania" -- that's got to be the most NPOV statement of the century. Care to back up such bold claims? Also, don't be so quick as to associate Albanians (the people) solely with Albania (the modern state whose borders were not drawn up by Albanians). Albanians are most easily identified by their language. People move around. That's why you have Albanians in Greece and Greeks in Albania. No one has any deeds to any ancient lands. Epirus was neither 100% Greek nor 100% Albanian. That's what the article should convey. If you've got any independently certified statistics showing otherwise, I'd like to see it. Dori | Talk 02:38, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu!! and these are Albanians who reject your illyrian theory.

For some interesting readings have a read at and. This coming from an Aromanian site, and the Aromanians have seen no love from either the Albanians or the Greeks. Dori | Talk 03:32, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)

I would like to know what does the author mean with "Greek character of towns like Koritsa (now Korçë) and Girokastron (now Gjirokastër)" Do you refer to the Greek language of the population? In that case it seems strange since nowadays I can't find this "character" and I have passed in Korçe my childhood (early 80s and my grandfathers are from there). Or do you probably refer to the religion? This is surely Eastern Orthodox, BUT NOT Greek Orthodox. I remind you that there exist many Orthodox Churches in the Balkans (the newest is the Montenegrin one) and the Greek Orthodox Church is one of them but not the only since ther are the Albanian, the Bulgarian, the Serbian ones and so on. The inability of the Greek nation to make a distintction between the Religion and the Ethnicity or Nationality has led to several, to say the least, misunderstandings if not wars and bloodshed. Orthodox=Greek is not a valid equation.

Albanian population were mostly moved? Move seems like going on a train ride. They were expelled. And that happened in 1920's with the greek-turkish population exchange. Albanians for some reason were categorized as turkish.

In his History written in 1079-1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaleiates was the first to refer to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. Similarly, the historian John Scylitzes refers (ca. 1081) to the Arbanites as  forming part of the troops assembled in Durrës by Nicephorus Basilacius. It can be assumed that the Albanians began expanding from their mountain homeland in the '''eleventh and twelfth centuries, initially taking possession of the northern and central Albanian coastline and by the thirteenth century spreading southward towards what are now southern Albania and western Macedonia. In the middle of the fourteenth century, they migrated even farther south into Greece, initially into Epirus, Thessaly (1320), Acarnania and Aetolia.' By the middle of the fifteenth century, which marks the end of this process of colonization, the Albanians had settled in over half of Greece in such great numbers that in many regions they constituted the majority of the population.'''

http://www.elsie.de/pub/pdf_articles/A2001CountriesCultures.pdf

In the 15th century several independant princelings called "Despots" by the Greeks, were in possetion of the rich and populous district of Albania, which stretched along the coast of the Adriatic and Mediterrenean sea and corresponds geographically to the Epirus of the ancient. One of the noblest of these chiefs was John Castriot....

shopper2.123city.net/SponsorAds/586-855-1476/1263_scanderbegcatholic-world1876.pdf

The first Latin-Albanian dictioanry was called "Dictionnarium latino-epiroticum" and the Albanian langauge was called "lingua Epirotica" On top of this, a 17th century Enlightened Scholar named Joseph Scalinger stated that Albanian was spoken "In the mountains of Epirus".

Look at this! 1761 	Blaž Tadijanović 	Svašta po malo iliti kratko složenje imena i riči u ilirski i njemački jezik (Miscellany, or a short Illyrian and German grammar) 1803 	Josip Voltiggi Istranin 	Grammatica illirica (Illyrian Grammar) So what? Are the Slavs Illyrians.They are both being used as geographic terms.

This article is not NPOV. I've seen this article in a Greek propaganda site. -user

The above is source is correct & not propaganda.


 * The region of Epirus during the middle ages was not the same as the one the article describes. Byzantine Epirus was split into two themata:

After the assimilation of Albania into the Greek Despotate of Epirus, the entire Albanian region was known for some time under that name. As for Northern Epirus, it was awarded to Albania after the Greek civil war by the Greek communist party, and not any great forces. It was the Greek army who defeated the Axis forces in Epirus during WW2, not the Albanians. History can be tricky if you only know parts of it. Miskin 09:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Old Epirus (today's Greek Epirus)
 * New Epirus (Northern Epirus and central Albania)

Can anyone read the history and say what was wrong with my edits? Someone had completly deleted them! Also, the last two rulers of Epirus (Empire of) were Serbs: List of Serbian rulers HolyRomanEmperor 16:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

POV
I've added the POV tag for the (repeated) changes by an anonymous user. +MATIA &#9742; 10:27, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Protected
Since a couple anons keep removing the NPOV tag, I've protected this article. -Greg Asche (talk) 18:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your concern, but could you please revert the article to its pre-vandalised version? The current version is full of the anonymous user's untruths and nationalist propaganda.--Theathenae 13:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not propaganda. Are you saying that al that whoey about the Greater Albania is propaganda??? Rex(talk) 13:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Please. The text is a copyvio of an Albanian school textbook. Do you support the annexation of "Çamëria" to Albania, User:REX?--Theathenae 13:48, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

IMHO it doesn't matter, because soon both countires will be member states of the EU (see Enlarging Europe:Albania). What difference will it make then? Do you support the annexation of "Voriya Ipiros" to Greece? Rex(talk) 14:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That isn't an unequivocal rejection of the idea. And no, I don't support the annexation of northern Epirus to Greece, nor any other dangerous border changes in the Balkans, e.g. Kosovo. However, recognising Albanian sovereignty over northern Epirus does not mean that Greece should not oppose Albania's assimilationist policy against the Greeks living there.--Theathenae 14:26, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello, people, I asked you a question!!!! :X HolyRomanEmperor 17:55, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * It is obvious a Greek wrote this article. It sounds as Albania invaded its own land in the south. A neutral one must be written. How can you include some "opression of human rights" in Albania and completely avoid the massacres in Janina and Filat? And what is this "Greek character" of "Korytsa" and "Argyrokastro"? No one has been able to see this kind of character. Congratulations for a new discovery. - Kastrioti, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Kastrioti is right, what the Çamë suffered under Metaxas was nothing less than genocide. The Albanians have the same right to live in Epirus/Çamëria as the Greeks and have done so. This article conveniently glosses over that fact, and instead pretends that the Greeks are the only legitimate inhabitants, whereas everyone else are unwanted foreigners. POV! 300,000 Albanians were expelled from Greece 700 women were raped, 80 children under the age of 3 were murdered, 1020 men were killed. The EU court of Human Rights is planning on looking into this in the near future. What happened the last time? Greece was convicted! Compensation should be paid and the Albanian estates should be returned. Nevertheless, the genocide aside, this article is too POV and glosses over the fact that Albanians have a significant history in this land. Rex(talk) 15:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Who is lying on the numbers? 300,000!!!!===Around 35,000 Chams were expelled from Greece after World War II after being accused of collaboration with the Nazi occupation, they say. They were given Albanian citizenship in 1953. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4397470.stm


 * Metaxas died in 1941. The Chams left when the Nazi Germans left Greece around 1944. +MATIA &#9742; 21:11, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Need I remind you of the famous (you might say infamous) Helsinki Report? Metaxas initiated a hellenisation policy aimed at all ethnic/linguistic minorities of Greece and inter alia the Chams were already subject to bad treatment. Expelling them was (not necessarily done by him) was (in my opinion) due to the fact that they were Muslims. The Christian Albanians were subject to much less bad treatment. This hypocrisy is terrible. Greece treats her own minorities like cr*p and then complains about the treatment of the Greek minorities in other countries (eg Albania). The genocide of the Pontic Greek by Turkey is another terrible example, and then Turkey has the sauce to complain about the Greek Muslim Minority. Genocide! Why can't people live and let live. Genocide is taking place as we speak in Sudan, why? I'm so glad I live in the other end of Europe from the Balkans, far away from all this hypocrisy. Rex(talk) 21:29, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Your accusations against Greece are baseless. +MATIA &#9742; 21:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Here's one for a start. And don't forget what the ECHR had to say. Rex(talk) 22:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow, would you look at that! And there's more and more and more. How's that for baseless accusations? Rex(talk)[[Image:Flag of Albania.svg|25px]] 22:51, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's my personal favorite: the Court found that by both their acts and omissions the Greek authorities had violated Article 11. The Greek government is ungrateful, they have received all that money from the EU, the EU even paid for their new airport and the 2004 Olympic Games and this is how they behave, the violate the European priciples and don't respect Human Rights. Ungrateful! Rex(talk)[[Image:Flag of Albania.svg|25px]] 23:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

POV
I think that perhaps it time people learnt to grow up! Modern Greeks and Modern Albanains and the territories they currently occupy are modern issues and have about as much relation to ancient Illyrians, classical Greek leagues and city states as I do to the people currently living in Jutland (Traditional home of the Angles supposed progenitors of the modern English, of which I am one). (Rory-rbremner)


 * Greek POV is everywhere in this article. The Camerian Genocide is barely discussed, the estimated 400,000 Albanian identifying Orthodox Christian Çams that have remained (and that's excluding the recent Albanian immigrants from 1990) are not even mentioned. Voria Epirus is always mentionad as being liberated, except the vast majority of the inhabitants of Voria Ipiros are Albanians. This article needs be-POVizing a lot and whatever is without source shall be removed. Rex(talk)[[Image:Flag of Albania.svg|25px]] 09:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

You have been reverting this article into a ludicrous version by User:Kastrioti where the name of the established article Comnenus is changed to Mihael Komnan (supporting that him and the Despotate of Epirus were Albanian). You knew about this article's existence and you only remembered to care about the so called "Greek POV" when a Albanian nationalist started vandalising the article. After this behaviour you're in no position to question the reliability of its content. You're hardly what is called a "well-established" operators as 99% of your edits concert ethnic debates that reach nationalist overtones. The edits of User:Kastioti (that you yourself supported) qualify as simple vandalism (section Wholesale reversions around one point). Miskin 16:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Nah, it's not vandalism. It's POV pushing. Both versions are inaccurate (Kastrioti's is just a little over the top). This article is grossly POV, both ways. Why the Albanian minority is not mentioned is beyond me. Just because the Greek government pretends they don't exist? Petty Greek nationalism. PS what have 99% of your edits concerned? Rex(talk)[[Image:Flag of Albania.svg|25px]] 18:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

REX there is no more Albanian minority in Epirus, it was long exchanged with a large Greek minority in Southern Albanian, I suppose you're already knew that. If you want to make a point to the Albanian minority that existed prior to this population exchange, then just add what you want in the article without vandalising every section of it. Read simple vandalism to find out why Kastrioti's edits were clear Vandalism that you supported. Miskin 10:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I have previously admitted it: my version is mostly AlbanianPOV. The reason I put it on wikipedia is to show that more neutral articles are necessary. The current one is pure Greek nationalist propaganda and it is ridiculous how the Greek users here don't admit it. Not mentioning the slaughters of thousands of people is not simply nationalism but extremism. In conclusion, the article was already vandalized before I created my account.

I already suggested that a new neutral article about Epirus should be written. This should be done soon or we'll continue to edit and re-edit for our own interests. Kastrioti 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Kastrioti, usually I don't talk reply seriously to people like you. You obviously have no historical knowledge, all you know is that Skanderbeg was referring to his Epirote army and ancestors (that he differentiated from the Albanians), so you decided that in order to keep his Albanian identity intact, you should change any references that prove Epirus as a historically Greek region. You're so blinded by nationalism that you were stupid enough to "Albanise" the names of the Byzantine emperors in order to deny the Greek identity of the Despotate of Epirus. Reverting to your nationalist myths 30 times a day won't help you edit an article, trust me on that one. We can't be writing new articles each time an ignorant extremist can't accept history. Keep reverting as much as you want, there are already some adult admins watching over you. Miskin 10:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Miskin, you know that dismissing people because you perceive yourself to be so superior is not going to get this over with. You cannot deny that the article, in both versions, is hopelessly POV. Yes, the most common names should be used as per Naming conventions (common names), but those bits about "liberating" Northern Epirus, and The Treaty of Berlin of 1881 gave Greece parts of southern Epirus, but it was not until the Balkan Wars of 1912-13 that rest of southern Epirus was returned to Greece. But the Greeks resented the fact that northern Epirus had been given to the new state of Albania, despite the mostly Greek character of the area and in big towns like Korytsá (Korçë in Albanian) and Argyrókastro (Gjirokastër). If that's not POV and a land claim on Albanian territory with the vast majority of the population being Albanian, I don't know what it is. why don't we discuss the Çam Genocide by the Greek resistance? Because the Greek government denies it? 3,000 people were murdered just because they were Muslims and the far-right fractions (EDES) wanted an ethnicaly pure border region. Even today, despite the Greek government's denials, there is a Christian Çam minority in Greece (they were not persecuted by EDES, they were just forced underground and attempts made to assimilate them). Why aren't they mentioned? What about the thousands of Albanian immigrants who live in Epirus? This article is hopelessly POV and reflects the Greek romanitic nationalist dreams on how they wish reality was. Rex(talk)[[Image:Flag of Albania.svg|25px]] 11:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Find neutral evidence about the genocide and it will be added. Epirus as a whole has had historically predominantly Greek, this is where the 'returned' comes in, but you can remove it as much as I'm concerned. Northern Epirus was occupied (if you prefer) by the Greek army in WW2 and was part of the Greek state after the allied victory. The only reason Northern Epirus now belongs to Albania was because the Greek communist party literally gave it away as a gift to their Albanian "comrades" during the civil war. This is why Northern Epirus never remained an independent state. None of those facts were mentioned in the article, therefore it's neutral. Compare reality to Kastrioti's version of the story to realise why it's vandalism. Albanian POV is not going to pass here just because Skanderbeg wrote about the Epirotes in a letter. Nobody cares about what Skanderbeg said so you can stop fearing that he will be "stolen" from you. Miskin 11:58, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The whole Cham genocide is outlined inter alia here, by a neutral source. UNPO claims that there are currently 200,000 Cham Albanians in Greece. According to the previous document, the ethnicity of Epirus is and always has been blurred, therefore you have no right to POV push, but should state all opinions and support none (as per WP:NPOV). If you think that northern Epirus was a "gift" to Albania, how do you explain the fact that UNPO estimates 280,000 people in "Northern Epirus". If that is not a drop of water in the sea? Where is the predominantly Greek northern Epirus? It is fully Albanian now, AND the Albanian authorities actually recognise the Greek minority as opposed to the Greek authorities who pretend that the Albanian minority doesn't exist. This article should be neutral, as I have said time and time again. What is wrong with WP:NPOV? Don't you like it? All views ahould be expressed and FACTS should not be left out just because you feel like it. Rex(talk)[[Image:Flag of Albania.svg|25px]] 13:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Northern Epirus was a gift by the communist party. Its Greek population has decreased significantly after the Albanian annexation and land claims have been withdrawn, I never claimed that Southern Albania is currently predominantly Greek, so I don't know what you're talking about. Miskin 11:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Miskin, thank you for showing your neutral POV.

As for my knowledge, I might know nothing about Athens or Thessaloniki, but I certainly know more than you about Epirus. Your arrogance does not illustrate education and you should stop it.

As for Epirus, it still is incredible how you keep denying some of the most important facts of its history. The Cham massacre is one of them. You said you want some neutral sources before adding it to the article. Here there are two neutral PRIMARY sources, undisputable too.

Colonel Chris Woodhouse, head of the British Military Mission in Greece: ''“Encouraged by the Allied Mission I headed, Zervas drove the Chams out of their homes in 1944. The majority fled to find shelter in Albania. Their eviction from Greece was carried out with large-scale bloodshed. Zervas’s work was followed in March 1945 with a large-scare massacre of the Filiates Chams that cannot be excused. The result was the eviction of the undesirable Albanian population from their land.”''

British Foreign Office PRO/FO No.371/48094/544/R8 564

Another primary source if you are not convinced…

Joseph Jacobs, head of the US Mission in Albania: ''“In March 1945 units of the Zervas’s dissolved forces carried out a massacre of Chams in the Filiates area, and practically cleared the district of the Albanian minority. According to all the information I have been able to gather on the Cham issue, in the fall of 1944 and during the first months of 1945, the authorities in north-western Greece perpetrated savage brutality by evicting some 25,00 Chams –residents of Chameria – from their homes. They were chased across the border after having been robbed of their land and property. Hundreds of male Chams from ages of 15 to 70 were interned on the islands of the Aegean Sea. In total, 102 mosques were burnt down.”''

Documents of the US Department of State, No. 84/3, Tirana Mission, 1945-1946, 6-646.

I think those two neutral primary sources are good enough to prove the massacre of Muslim Chams did occur. It must be added to the article because it is one of the most important events in Epirus’s history whether you like it or not.

And what do you mean when you say "Epirus as a historical Greek region"? Are baklava and byrek (spanakopita) Greek too? No, they are Turkish. And Epirus is not a historical Greek region. Your ancestors have proved it too. It is, to this day, a disputed region.

You have crossed the limit when you wrote about Korca and Gjirokastra as “cities with mostly Greek character.” Korca is the city where the first school (in Albanian language) was opened. Korca is where Germenji and Kostandin Kristoforidhi were born. Kristoforidhi is one of the most important men in Albania’s history. His contribution to the Albanian alphabet was essential. that's why the Greek Church cursed him and the Albanian language. Naum Veqilharxhi, the man who started the Albanian renaissance, was from Korca. Kristo Negovani, a priest from Korca, was translating the liturgy in Albanian. The Greek Church cursed and then massacred him. Cerciz Topulli from Gjirokastra (another city of mostly Greek character) killed Fotis, the Greek priest responsible for Negovani’s death. Ilia Sheperi, a genious of Albanian language, was from Gjirokastra. Jani Vreto, one of the five Christians who participated in the League of Prizren was Gjirokastrit. What in the world makes these cities have a mostly Greek character? All I see from their histories is the sacrifice for Albania. Your statement was pure propaganda, or maybe it came out of ignorance because you probably know nothing of Korca and Gjirokastra and it's not your fault. You're so blinded by nationalism that you are stupid enough to Hellenize these two Albanian cities that have a strong Albanian identity. History proves it.

As for Komneni: I recheked some information and it seems I misundertood one fact. Arianiti is maternaly related to Komneni and I thought he was related from his father's family. It was my mistake and I admit it.

I never quoted Skanderbeg. You are the one doing that but since you brought it up, then I must tell you that he knew what he was saying. His reference came from Stanish, his older brother, and he did not differentiate himself from the Albanians.

This is my last serious response to you because your nationalistic mind desires to select facts. You only like your POV and that is Greek only. I'm not here to convince you. You have your perspective, I have mine. The next resposes will be short, 2-3 sentences.

As for the administrators; I’m glad they’re watching over me. If they’re watching me, then they must be watching you too. This means wikipedia is supervised. Good!

PS: The reason why we got southern Albania is because international borders were already drawn. Similar to why Serbia took Kosova in 1945, even though it was united (or occupied or annexed) with Albania. Kastrioti, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok right into the point by quoting REX's own source: I bet you didn't read that article fully. The Albanians were on the side of the nazis and started commiting massacres against the local Greek population, who were fighting the Axis forces. That was your noble "Cham struggle" that you're asking us to honour. It continues: Why were those nasty Greeks seeing the Albanians as the enemy at the time? Because they joined the nazis and committed massacres while the Greeks were fighting for their freedom"'. Is that clear enough to both of you? The majority of the Chams fled Epirus. So far so good, the Greek atrocities began after the Albanian collaboration with the Axis forces: In an attempt to establish an ethnically pure border region, the Chams were evicted from northern Greece by guerrilla forces under the command of General Napoleon Zervas acting under the instructions of allied officers. In the light of recent research, wartime documents show that Greek actions against the Chams were supported and authorised by the British. These actions resulted in around 35,000 Chams fleeing to Albania and others to Turkey. Colonel Chris Woodhouse, head of the British Military Mission in Greece reported that: "Encouraged by the Allied Mission I headed, Zervas drove the Chams out of their homes in 1944. The majority fled to find shelter in Albania. Their eviction from Greece was carried out with large-scale bloodshed. Zervas's work was followed in March 1945 with a largescale massacre of the Filiates Chams that cannot be excused. The result was the eviction of the undesirable Albanian population from their land." The details that follow (about rapes and murders) cannot be taken into consideration unless quoted by an official''' source such as a well established encyclopedia or a neutral historical work. Assuming that those grave Greek atoricities did take place, it's not like the racist genocide that you both present it, it's about the punishment of those who took the side of the nazis. Greece lost 700,000 people during that war, defeated the Italian forces and resisted to the Germans, while at the same time the Albanians only cared about expanding their territory. I'm definitely not excusing any kind of killing of innocent people, but I'm pointing out that a post-WW2 political situation in the Balkans is too complicated and too alien to be understood so easily by a couple of internet-warriors. You can't criticise so naively the political situation of WW2. According to your patiotic logic, we should start considering the Invasion of Normandy and the occupation of Berlin as a Massacre of Germans. The Allied forces were bombing Berlin for days after the Nazis had already surrendered, but no-one dares to call this a "massacre". Make your own conclusions. Miskin 11:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The Chams were subsequently armed by the Italians and co-operated with them against Greek villages controlled by Greek resistance fighters. During this period, atrocities were committed by a minority of Chams against Greek civilians, thousands of whom were forced to flee from their homes.
 * 14 In October 1944 when the Germans began withdrawing from Greece, many hundreds of Chams also fled with them into Albania. Henceforth, the remaining Muslim Albanians in Greece were regarded by the Greeks as the enemy within.

To stick to the point, my opinion is that this incident requires an article of its own where every information will be revealed, including the pro-Albanian stance of the Greek communist party during the civil war that resulted in offering Epirus as a "gift" to the Albanian state. If you insist to stick it here, be aware that both sides of the story will be stated, including the Albanian collaboration with the Axis, and the Allied "permission" concerning their punishment. User:Kastioti continues to ask simple vandalism on the article by making ludicrous edits to all of its sections. Miskin 11:08, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

It means that throughtout its history it has been primarily inhabited by Greeks (though never exclusively). The Despotate of Epirus should not confuse you into believing that it included Epirus. It extended further North to include almost half of modern Albania, and further south to include western Greece. The Albanian population was allied with the Greeks at the time, but they were not regarded as Epirotes. As for "baklava", it has a turkish name, which means that it has had Turkish influence, but the origin of the sweet itself goes further back in Byzantine history. Now I don't know what "byrek" is, but Spanakopita is Greek. It's has feta cheese in it (hello!). But honestly, you don't have to be so envious, I'll say it's Albanian if that will make you feel any better about yourself. Miskin 11:22, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * User:Kastrioti says:And what do you mean when you say "Epirus as a historical Greek region"? Are baklava and byrek (spanakopita) Greek too? No, they are Turkish. And Epirus is not a historical Greek region. Your ancestors have proved it too. It is, to this day, a disputed region.

A list of quotes that will demonstrate why I considered user:Kastrioti from the start a waste of everybody's time:

The man actually has ongoing land claims that he expects to sort out by adding nationalist myths on a Greek article.
 * (Epirus) It is, to this day, a disputed region.

Nationalist views that existed in Europe over 50 years in the past.
 * All I see from their histories is the sacrifice for Albania.

I don't care about the personal attacks, what I'm pointing out is again your ignorance. There has actually been a medieval Greek Empire that it came under the name of Epirus but your constant reverts prove that is something you blindly deny. Do you want me to quote sources like Eric Hobsbawm on this one? Be careful because the score is increasing.
 *  you are stupid enough to Hellenize these two Albanian cities that have a strong Albanian identity. History proves it.

Limited historical history. Scanderbeg's article makes explicit differentiation between "Albanians" and "Epirotes", he never considers them the same thing. Judging by the history of region (and the region despotate), Skanderbeg's epirotes where nothing but but Byzantine Greeks. The seal of Skanderbeg which marks him as "Emperor of the Greeks" proves that. All of the above info and quotes are presented in the article. But of course I don't expect to believe that, what I do expect form you is to keep your views to yourself.
 * I never quoted Skanderbeg. You are the one doing that but since you brought it up, then I must tell you that he knew what he was saying.

Right. So in your world, you just vandalise an article 24/7, realise afterwards that you were "confused", and you expect to settle this with a "sorry"? Isn't that right? Well it's wrong. You just demostrated why I looked down on you and considered you a waste of time from the beginning. You also proved why all your edits should be reverted by default, because they'll be probabilistically biased. You made my point. Miskin 11:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * "As for Komneni: I recheked some information and it seems I misundertood one fact. Arianiti is maternaly related to Komneni and I thought he was related from his father's family. It was my mistake and I admit it.''

Both sides of the story should be present. Sources should be found, and of course we shall quote my source, which says:
 * Under the DP government in June 1994 a new law was passed, which proclaimed 27 June as "The Day of Greek Chauvinist Genocide Against the Albanians of Chameria" and set up a memorial to the Chams in the southern village of Konispol.

Of course this whole thing needn't be gone into in much detail. Of course the name Mihael Komnan cannot be used. The most common name used in English should be used as per Naming conventions (common names). Those bits about the Greek character of Gjirokastër and Korçë will have to be do-POVized until a neutral reference is found. I think that'll do for now. Rex(talk) 11:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

PS Miskin, read Vandalism:
 * Mistakes
 * Sometimes, users will insert content into an article that is not necessarily accurate, in the belief that it is. By doing so in good faith, they are trying to contribute to the encyclopedia and improve it. If you believe that there is inaccurate information in an article, ensure that it is, and/or discuss its factuality with the user who has submitted it.

What makes an edit vandalism is bad faith. Is Kastrioti, to the best of your judgement, acting out of bad faith, or is there a serious defect in the articles "alleged" neutrality. Rex(talk) 11:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I still didn't hear the answer to my question!!!!! Why did you delete the two last Epirotean rulers? (who were Serbs) see: List of Serbian rulers HolyRomanEmperor 19:38, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, right, 35000 people just fled. And all of them collaborated with nazis. And yet you forget about 1913-14 and 1922. I guess they disliked living where their ancestors had lived for centuries and they just left. And Epirus was never primarily inhabited by Greeks. Read Suflay, Fevereial, Lodge, D'Angely, Gatti etc. Even the so-called "vorioepirotes" are not natives. Ottoman records show they are from central Greece and settled in Dropulli around the 1840s. They were living in poverty and they left. They became farmers of Albanian beylers and pashas. So your claim goes down by primary source information but it is valid considering Greek sources.

Korca and Gjirokastra are pure Albanian cities with a long Albanian history. The previous comment proves it whether you like it or not. This explains why I looked down at you because you didn't know what you were talking about. Thus, the edits are completely justified.

Now you're thinking of adding the chameria genocide, after denying it 24/7. Well, that just proves my point. Thank you for crossing the limit again by mentioning the Albanian national hero, Gjergj Kastrioti.

''Scanderbeg's article makes explicit differentiation between "Albanians" and "Epirotes", he never considers them the same thing. Judging by the history of region (and the region despotate), Skanderbeg's epirotes where nothing but but Byzantine Greeks.''

Interesting. I just went and checked it. A passage of his letter is in front of me and it says "Arberit". And so does Marin Barleti's letter, as well as the one of Ferdinand of Aragona. Arberia was Albania between XII-XVI century. So your statement is baseless and is just a valueless argument for claiming a hero. I knew it, you were a waste of everyone's time since the beginning. I should've never posted the previous long comment.

The details that follow (about rapes and murders) cannot be taken into consideration unless quoted by an official source such as a well established encyclopedia or a neutral historical work.

My details come from Miranda Vicker's article and are accepted by most of the international experts.

The man actually has ongoing land claims that he expects to sort out by adding nationalist myths on a Greek article. Bravo, you admit your goal.

PS: Spanakopita or tiropita or however you call it is really Turkish. Bakllava is either turkish or middle eastern. Now, don't tell me Turkish coffee is really Greek coffee? Kastrioti, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Spanakopita and tiropita are two completely different things, and the only link is the feta cheese. People like Kastrioti are giving the worst image of their ethnicity. If I had never met an Albanian in my life I'd think that they're all nationalist moron who all they do is hate and envy their neighbouring nations in order to feel better about their own misery. Honestly that's the image you give. Like for example when you question the origin of two feta-based foods, that have blatantly never seen in your life. That makes you look like a sad muppet. Miskin 19:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

As for you REX, I hope you're joking when you call the "Miranda Vickers" article a neutral source. You either think I'm completely stupid or you haven't read it. I read it fully last night, and I can't possible think of a better definition for the word "propaganda". I think by now my initial attitude towards people like Kastrioti is again justified. And if you can honestly not see what's wrong with that article, then unfortunately you belong to the same group of editors like Kastrioti. However if you do see what's wrong with it and yet you choose to pass such ludicrous POVs in wikipedia, then you're still at the same level with Kastrioti, except smarter (he probably believes it was actually written by a non-Albanian). Either way, you're in the black list. Miskin 19:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Summary: When Miskin dislikes what neutral sources say, he dismisses them as propaganda and people who support the said neutral source are stupid and belong on a black list. Rex(talk)[[Image:Flag of Albania.svg|25px]] 19:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Miskin, I would really like to know how blinded by that Greek romantic nationalist fantasy you are. This is a neutral source you have no reason to dismiss it. You probably wouldn't even admit that there are 200,000 Orthodox Chams still in northwestern Greece (from UNPO), but you promote their figure of 280,000 for the Greek minority of Voria Ipiros. These double standards have got to stop! Rex(talk)[[Image:Flag of Albania.svg|25px]] 19:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * When Miskin dislikes what neutral sources say, he dismisses them as propaganda and people who support the said neutral source are stupid and belong on a black list.

that's absolutely right. Whatever is not pro-Greek is propaganda. It must be another one of those Unholy Alliances.

again, is Turkish coffee Greek coffee? Again, byrek is Turkish food, thta's how the world recognizes it except Greek nationalists like you.

Miskin, you are actually giving the worse name to Greeks. If I had never met a Grreek, I would think they're nationalist morons who take what they like from their neighbors and say "it's ours".

But I do understand your attitude. I'm a native of Epirus and for that you consider me a barbarian. You think a lot like Gage but at least he's smart.

Since you ONLY want neutral sources, then we shall ONLY use neutral sources for "Greeks" too and that is no Greek or Albanian estimations. Kastrioti, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Why am I being ignored? I still didn't get my answer!!! HolyRomanEmperor 19:53, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * REX get us a real source and we talk about it later. If you do make a point, then it will probably need an article of its own which would be linked here. If that ridiculous college coursework (which as far as I'm concerned might be your own work) is the best you can do, then I provoke you to have a 3rd party decide whether it's neutral or not. Miskin 13:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Wait... Do you think that I am User:REX ??? HolyRomanEmperor 16:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Changes to the article
I've made some fairly major changes to the article; in its old version it was rather a mish-mash of different things. I've now remodelled it on the same lines as the Macedonia articles. The main changes are as follows:


 * Epirus now goes to Epirus (disambiguation);
 * The original Epirus article (this one) is now moved to Epirus (region);
 * The content from the old Epirus article about the Greece periphery of that name is now at Epirus (Greece);
 * The historical content is all in Epirus (region), but significantly revised (based partly on the old text and partly on other sources).

I'd be interested to know what others think... -- ChrisO 01:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that Epirus (region) should be moved to Epirus and have a line at the intro about Epirus (disambiguation). The way I see it the region article is a superset of all related articles. Beside that, I agree with the content splits into various articles you did, and I would have done the same in the past if I were bolder. +MATIA &#9742; 11:28, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Etymology of Epirus
It is possible that the names "Epirus", "Europe", "Ambraces", "Bryges", "Hebrus river" are agnate. Their roots (*pr-) and (*br-) are closely akin. In the end of 3rd or the beginning of 2nd millennia BC, the original meaning of these words had to be "Western Country" or "Peoples that dwelled in country in west of Hebrus river". Perhaps, this great river divided the eastern Thrace, the known country to Hattians, Hittites and other Orient peoples from the western Thrace and the lands beyond, the unknown country to them.

--IonnKorr 22:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Molossoi are Illyrians? Not a single ancient source points to that
Yes, the Molossoi are Illyrians. Thucydides expressingly says that they are barbarians, according to the language they speak. Dodona was the temple of the pelasgian Zeus, a word which is derived in modern Albanian as "Zot" which means God. How else could you explain that most of the Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Greece have a meaning in modern Albanian. Afrodite (Afërdita) means near the dawn, and refers to planet Venus which is shiny at that time. Read Encyclopedia Britanicca and get some real answers.

Do you read too much Hoxja fiction? According to Athenian historians the term barbarian often used not with an ethnic meaning but its related to the society's organization and education. In that way some ancient sources give the epithet barbarian to acarnaians, boetians, helians (the founders of olympic games). On the other hand their nationality was never under question. The same situation exist with the Epirot tribes too. There is not a single source poiting them as Illyrians or Thracians. As an old Epirot moto says: to know half the truth is wors than to know absolute nothing.Alexikoua (talk) 07:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Athenian views
"The Epirotes seem to have initially been regarded with some disdain by the Greeks of the south"

This should change to "The Epirotes seem to have initially been regarded with some disdain by the Athenians among many other Greeks when athens rose to power." the athenians called most Greeks barbarians like spartan,macedons and many others.It was a political position.Archeology has shown us they were Greek. Megistias (talk) 16:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I support changing the sentence to the above version.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

antiquity map
Please give the source of your map seems to me very amator and with strong bias.If the others accept such artistic work, i have nothing more to add, is very clear to me .Dodona --Burra (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The map is sourced approved,licensed and discussed in the commons.Its fully accepted and clear to all that its historical and fully correct.Megistias (talk) 20:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please read wiki rules .Megistias (talk) 21:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

New add
Epirus was known as the home of the Oracle of Dodona at the time of Homer and was inhabitated by Epirotic tribes barely known to the Greeks .This was the origin of the Molosians which spoke a dialect similar to Dorians and Macedonians --Dodona (talk) 14:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Your new add cant go on since

A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 77,1986 A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 39,1986
 * Quote: "... The original home of the Hellenes was ' Hellas', the area round Dodona in Epirus, according to Aristotle. In the Iliad it was the home of Achilles' Hellenes"
 * Quote: "these conclusions to the evidence of archaeology, the following picture emerges. The first Greek-speaking peoples settled in Macedonia, Thessaly, and Epirus after c. 2500, and in these areas they developed different dialects". A History of Greece to 322 B.C.by N. G. L. Hammond .ISBN-10: 0198730950,page 56,1986
 * Quote: "... Greek gods too, especially Zeus the sky-god, were at home on Mt. Olympus and in Pieria, and the Zeus of Dodona derived his importance from the Bronze Age when he displaced a Mother Goddess and assimilated her as Aphrodite, ' Similar ...""
 * Your first source is superseded by Hammond's later work and finds and the Yahoo encyclopedia has obviously glaring errors since and omission in this subject.You second source says they were Greeks and spoke Greek but that is already in the article.The fact that they were Ancient Greeks.But thankou for your effort. Megistias (talk) 07:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Great, thank you and i agree with you almost, anyway i am impressed by you answer and this is a good present for me by a Greek, to day. But some sources mention in fact that hey spoke a different language or dialect, could you enlighten me more what was this dialect and if it did survive, have you got any source of this ?!--Dodona (talk) 17:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * They spoke Ancient Greek as the sources say.Megistias (talk) 17:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes they did, but did the ancient Greek speak the same language Doric Greek, why this reference says that then:

Reference :Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus, under the name of Aspetus, in the language of the country. After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous, and insignificant both in their power and their lives, Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning Life of Pyrrhus by Plutarch --Dodona (talk) 18:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * We were discussing the same thing on Talk:Chaonians just the other day. Aspetus is a Greek word, and there is nothing in Plutarch's wording that indicates they spoke a non-Greek language there. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ἄσπετος Aspetos divine epithet of Achilles in Epirus (Homeric aspetos 'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless' (Aristotle F 563 Rose; Plutarch, Pyrrhus 1; SH 960,4) its Doric GreekMegistias (talk) 20:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If the albanian epirotik version "i shpejti" does not suit to him, then you may find further word similarities in this reference: Pisani is well known to be against simple "Stammbaum" connections, yet he has from time to time pointed out apparent parallels in Albanian and Illyrian. In Paideia (1958:12.271) he draws an isogloss for "Macedonia-Tracia" with the words for 'name': Alb. emen, Slavic im, Baltic emnes/emmens, Keltic ainmN, etc. Doric would also show Illyrian relics in EnumakratidaV, EnumantiadaV (both Laconian); and to these Pisani adds Laconian diza 'capra' = Albanian dhi. In Paideia (12.298) he adduces Laconian grifasqai = grafein, with "Illyrian" * > ri and Hellenized phi; and deisa 'sterco', first attested in deisozos in Leonidas of Tarentum, which he equates with Albanian dhjes 'defecate'. In his review of Volume I of A. Mayor's Die Sprache der alten Illyrier (Paideia 1958: 13.319-320) Pisani lists various Illyrian glosses, most of which show no hopeful connection with Albanian, but do show considerable philological difficulty: pelioV, pelia 'vecchio, -a' might conceivably be put in relation with plak 'old man'; we could guess at tritw 'testa' alongside trû 'brain'; medoV 'hydromel' does not occur in Albanian (see below); perhaps the most interesting is dibriV 'qalassa' ("senza etnico"), which has been suggested in connection with Albanian déet, but which Pisani thinks probably Phrygian--Dodona (talk) 15:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Albanian is unrelated to ancient Greek or Epirotic which is Ancient Greek and a NW dialect of ancient Greek.I suggest you read the appropriate articles.Megistias (talk) 20:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

which are the appropriate sources epiriotes are albanins and a dialect of greece --Dodona (talk) 20:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Own research
This is one of the worst own research I have seen in wiki, please read it carrefully: "The Epirotes though apparently Greek-speaking seem to have been regarded with some disdain by the Athenians when the latter rose to power, a fate suffered by many Greek enemies of Athens or those Greeks they considered culturally inferior to themselves.The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides describes them as "barbarians" due to the fact they tried to detach Acarnania from the sphere of Athenian power and allied themselves with the Spartans to do so during the Peloponnesian War.This term was used by Athenians in a pejorative and politically motivated manner against many Greeks  The author (I don`t know who is) assumes that Athenians called even greeks as barbarians, without giving a source about that, but explains his theory, by giving the historical fact that Athens and Sparta were in war. Then, he tries to explain that barbarians "was used by Athenians in a pejorative and politically motivated manner against many Greeks", giving as e reference a dictionary, where barbarians is strictly translated as "non forigniers". I removed it...(I told you this because I know that there will be a revert war). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 15:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It was not an important change but, if it matters, the word "barbarian" could be used by ancient Greeks against other Greeks as an insult. Some examples: (1) Aeschines called Demosthenes a ‘barbarian’ in his speech “On the Embassy“: “fortune cast my lot with a slanderer, a barbarian, who cared not for sacrifices nor libations nor the breaking of bread together."   Aeschines, On the Embassy 2 183 (2) “Stratonicus, when he was once asked by some one who were the wickedest people, he said, “That in Pamphylia, the people of Plaselis were the worst; but that the Sidetze were the worst in the whole world.” And when he was asked again, according to the account given by Hegesander, which were the greatest barbarians, the Boeotians or the Thessalians, he said ”the Eleans.”    Athenaeus Deipnosophists VIII 350a (3) Socrates calls the Athenian Strepsiades a ‘barbarian’ in Aristophanes “Nephelae” (Clouds): “The ignorant man, the barbarian!”    Aristophanes, ‘Nephelae’ (line 491) If it helps, Athenians, Thessalians, Boeotians and Eleans were Greeks. Skamnelis (talk) 22:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Map
Are we serious about the map on Epirus (region)? There seems that Albanians did not existed back then. There is another map, in which seems that Greeks did not exist. Will we stop adding the most POV maps we find in order to make our POINT?balkanian (talk) 11:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't particularly care for these old maps myself. feel free to remove it if you don't like it.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism AGAIN!
Can someone (an admin I mean) please have a look at this ravaging vandal?? (He/she reminds me of someone). --Michael X the White (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Names
Since it has ro be official, can we at least have the official recognition from the Albanian state that some of Epirus is Albanian territory? Thank you.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The Albanian state of course recognise that a part of historical region of Epirus lies in its territory. It would be fullish not to recognise it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:21, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What is the interpretation of historical though? This is just geography and the article describes the modern region geographically and not politically. Since "the term Northern Epirus is rejected for its irredentist associations", is there some form of official recognition that geographically there is a part of Epirus in modern Albania?--Michael X the White (talk) 16:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Northern Epirus" is rejected because Northern EPirus does not exists, like "Agean Macedonia" is rejected in Greece because it does not exists. But Epirus and Macedonia does exists as regions that have existed in the past, which means "historical regions". Today, Albania recognises new regions that are named during the Middle Ages, the same has happened in Greece. But, Greece has renamed them during its modern history in the ancient ones (Vagnetia-Thesprotia, Morea-Peloponesos) etc. This is the difference.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:40, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Regions that have existed in the past??? Have they sunk in the sea? Have they been washed off by rivers?? Is now Thessaly and southern Greece an island?? I think they exist. As both Northern Epirus and Aegean Macedonia exist. Aegean Macedonia is the part of Macedonia that belongs to the Hellenic Republic, as it is called by citizens of FYROM and those who share their views. But there is official recognition by both states that that piece of land is part of the geographical region of Macedonia, no matter who it belongs to or who is indigenous to it. Northern Epirus is the part of Epirus that belongs to Albania, as it is called by Greeks and those who share their views. Does Albania recognise N.Epirus is part of Epirus? Since the term is rejected, does it have an alternative term for it? That's what I'm asking for. By the way, I have two more questions: What is Vagnetia?? (I've never heard of that before) and where in WP:NCGN is it mentioned that archaic names should go first? Thank you.--Michael X the White (talk) 17:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:NCGN second part. "What is Vagnetia??" Vagnetia is the Middle Ages name for Thesprotia and adjuctant areas. "Does Albania recognise N.Epirus is part of Epirus?" Albania recognises that the region of Epirus exists, but Northern Epirus and Southern Epirus does not exists. There is a sole region of Epirus. "But there is official recognition by both states that that piece of land is part of the geographical region of Macedonia, no matter who it belongs to or who is indigenous to it." That`s exactly what I say: Macedonia is one region, all other regions are created as political ones. On the other hand Albania does not recognise Epirus as a geographical region, because there are the land of Epirus is diveded in Albania in 2 regions Laberia and Chameria.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok! Thank you!--Michael X the White (talk) 17:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Could you please stop reordering the languages in the lead? According to WP:NCGN names that are in the languages official of the region are first and archaich ones later. Epirus lies in Greece and Albania, so both languages are official, so in alphabetical order, Albanian is firstBalkanian`s word (talk) 14:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * nah. the language of origin is Greek. In Albanian it's a loan from Greek. get it. or dont.CuteHappyBrute (talk) 14:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes it is. But according to WP:NCGN, the name of origin is last. The first names are tho names that are official for that region. So, Albanian and Greek. Ordering them alphabetically, Albanian is first. Do you get it?Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ok. you care about the alphabetic order, right? and you don't have a problem with saying the truth that the Albanian name comes from the Greek name? so we should put it as such: "(Epiri, which comes from Ήπειρος Ēpeiros, Ancient Northwest Greek: Ἅπειρος Apeiros)". so we agree? CuteHappyBrute (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "you care about the alphabetic order, right?" No i care about WP:NCGN, which states that only names should be put in the lead. The etymology of the name, is written in the article. You may add in the lead only its origin, like this: ""(Epiri, Ήπειρος Ēpeiros, from Ancient Northwest Greek: Ἅπειρος Apeiros)"Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * lol yea it is in the etymology but i thought you didn't get it the first time.. .--CuteHappyBrute (talk) 14:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * :-)Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

If you truly care about WP:NCGN then you should stop misinterpret it. WP:NCGN mentions that all alternative names (foreign relevant alternative names) should be moved after the local official name. 1) This applies to names used by people who used to inhabit the geographical place 2)this does not apply to the archaic name 3) (in this case) Epirus is not a local official name for Albania, no matter if there is a part of the region in the country, you said it yourself.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:59, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Bingo! Albanians never use the term Epirus, yet here we have an Albanian user trying to manipulate WP:NCGN for his own ends.  The term Epirus is only local and official in Greece, so it comes first.  Albanian comes after.  Simple.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you reading me, or somebody else? I said: " Albania recognises that the region of Epirus exists", "On the other hand Albania does not recognise Epirus as a geographical region"" In Albania Epirus is refered as a historical region. Put an end! Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Epirus (Greek: Ήπειρος Ēpeiros, from Ancient Northwest Greek: Ἅπειρος Apeiros, in Albanian: Epiri) is a region in south-eastern Europe, currently divided between the periphery of Epirus in Greece and the prefectures of Gjirokastra, Vlora, Korça, Berati, Fieri and Elbasani in southern Albania. is is present tense that means that Epirus exists. currently means that Epirus exists at the moment and the rest is the political division. Albania doesn't recognise Epirus as a geographical region means that Albania does not recognise that Epirus currently is where the lead describes. Historical region (something that does not make any sense to me) means that the region once was there, and not currently is. Check Epirus and see if this article is about history or geography. For history, please go to the relevant part.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What is all this nonsense about "historical regions" and "geographical regions"?  What does that mean that "Albania recognises Epirus as a "historical region" but not a "geographic region"?  That doesn't make any sense.  Of course Epirus is a geographical region.  What is it, an imaginary region? All regions are "geographical".  The point is, Epirus is used locally and officially only Greece and not Albania, so the Greek version comes first.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * These are bsh. Epirus lies in both countires and nobody can say that Epirus is more "greek" than "albanian" or vice-versa. Epirus is a region in 2 countires and so both languages are official, for more, aromanian name should be added in the intro as an ethnic name of the region. Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:51, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "Thank you for being polite". I don't see why the Albanian name should be there anyway. Per WP:NCGN it is nor official nor used by the "inhabitants". Being in both countries does not mean it is official in both countries. For example that Laberia and Chameria thing is in both countries but it is not in any way recognised by Greece and it is entirely unofficial. Not to mention that, at least "Laberia" is entirely unknown to the local people in Epirus. What I asked in the first place is a proof that Epirus is the official term for the part of Epirus that currenlty belongs to Albania. Read WP:NCGN carefully. It mentions local official name not an official language of a state being there.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The term Epirus is not used officially in Albania, that is my point, not that Albanian is an official language in the region of Epirus. It is, but that is not the point.  Per WP:NCGN, local and officially used names come first.  I don't think you're reading the policy correctly.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you are trying to play the "moon is made from chease" game! Ok, then, find me the law that makes Epirus the official name of the "region", (not periphery, i.e. an administrative division) in Greece. These are bshBalkanian`s word (talk) 20:01, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You don't need the law. The official site is enough. (You can find the rest in there).--Michael X the White (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That`s the name of the administrative division, not of the "geographical region".Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, it's so hard clicking the first link that says "more". Let me do it for you. . Still, where is data for Albania??--Michael X the White (talk) 20:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope, that`s not an "geographical naming" thats "το όνομα υποδείκνυε την ευρύτερη γεωγραφική περιοχή, η οποία εκτείνεται μέχρι το κέντρο της περιοχής όπου σήμερα καταλαμβάνει η Αλβανία.". You see it is υποδείκνυε, past tense, it used to.... And by the way its not official, because it is in a page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It is official enough being in an official of the Greek government. In anyway even the perphery "Epirus" is a form of recognition that Epirus is around there. What else would you like? All the documents of the last century demanding the rest of Epirus to join Greece?
 * Still no data for Albania--Michael X the White (talk) 20:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ...All the documents of the last century... history, hisotry! "It is official enough being in an official of the Greek government" Yes it is, but it is not a geographical region.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Still no data for Albania--Michael X the White (talk) 20:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC) Still no data for Greece, none of them is officialBalkanian`s word (talk) 20:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

They do not seem official enough to you, that's all. By the way, "Περιφέρεια Ηπείρου" means periphery in the geographical region of Epirus. And in any way "Epirus" is used by the inhabitants. Is "Epiri" even used by Albanians??--Michael X the White (talk) 20:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ""Περιφέρεια Ηπείρου" means periphery in the geographical region of Epirus", no it means the periphery of Epirus, ok then, lets say that today epirus does not lye in Southern Albania. "Is "Epiri" even used by Albanians??" Of course it is.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The Albanian name should be first in the lead as per WP:NCGN. why are you so nationalistic blindBalkanian`s word (talk) 21:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * no, you are the stubborn nationalist. bye. --CuteHappyBrute (talk) 08:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Good lord, how much talk space have you guys filled up about this issue? Okay, I've been asked for an opinion, so I'll bite. Both name forms are boring. Epirus, Ηπειρος and Epir are essentially not different names but one and the same name with predictable morpho-phonological variants. The Greek form deserves preferential treatment only insofar as it is the etymon. Since there's an etymology section, the Greek orthography can go there, and stay there. The Albanian form can go there too.

As far as present-day languages go, I see absolutely no reason to treat the Greek and Albanian differently. Both are equally boring and uninformative to the English reader. I'm becoming more and more convinced that listing such name variants in the lead (when they are not substantially linguistically different) serves no other purpose than to tickle the POV sensitivities and national prides of our editors; they have no function at all in providing relevant information to our readers. The urge seems irresistible, but please, please, people, stop treating names as symbolic badges of acknowledgment of national possession. This goes to both sides here.

The issue of "officialness" is a red herring. From what I can gather, both Albanians and Greeks use the name; our observation of languages should focus on what language communities do (they are the ones that "own" a language), not what state administrations do. Thus, whether or not Albania has an actual administrative unit that is officially called Epirus is quite beside the point, especially since the administrative units are not what this article is about in the first place.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:56, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, another thing, I have no idea why the Doric form Apeiros keeps creeping back into the intro. That one is even more irrelevant. Of course, it's of some moderate interest within the etymology section, making the link between the standard Greek form and the IE reconstructed etymon more obvious to the lay reader, but that's about it. All present day forms are squarely and exclusively derived from the Koine. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Look, the name was added there with the "excuse" of being official. (WP:NCGN says "local official name" and that is what was made refernce to.) It was said that the Albanian name is official since a part of Epirus is in the Albanian Republic. But that part is Northern Epirus and the term N.Epirus is rejected. And that is why I asked for another "sign" that Epirus is official for Albania. Since reference was made to local official name that was what the question was on. I did not imply that there was no recognition or that the name was not official or something. But, since N.Epirus is rejected I asked for some other kind of recognition, only to see if adding the Albanian name was justified (or not).--Michael X the White (talk) 16:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It is, of course, "official", in the sense of being the name of the region in what is the official language in it. Which is all we normally ask for, just as with names of rivers, mountains and the like, which also need not have any "official" legislated status. (BTW, it is in fact exactly as official as Macedonia is in Greece. That isn't the official name of an actual territorial unit either; and the fact that Northern Epirus is rejected in Albania is of exactly the same status as the rejection of Aegean Macedonia in Greece.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree totally with Fut.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:33, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

As for the "loan" see Skanderbeg, who talks about EpirusBalkanian`s word (talk) 18:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * yea whatev, the etymology says what there is to be said. yet still. who says the Albanian language community uses it natively (old loan) and not as a new loan to describe what the Greek guys refer to as Epirus?.. i see many sources about the Gr part and zero about the Alb part. also your Aegean Macedonia thing is wholly wrong as 1. that is a neologism and Greeks are notorious for not using them (at least when they refer to stuff that have been there for millenia); 2. It is not a "rejection". It was always useless for the Greeks to use that form because they always connected Macedonia as "touching" the Aegean sea, thus making it a pleonasm like saying "Atlantic East-Coast" (of USA). what we say is they aren't to be treated equally because as the article says the one is a loan. if you count the Albanian name as historically valuable or valuable due to the Albanian community of North Epirus, then why not include the Slavic name, Aromanian, Turkish, Roma, (who may have some people there) or whoever passed by Epirus.. --CuteHappyBrute (talk) 18:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ...or its like sayig that Konica is part of the northern part of Epirus, but not of Northern Epirus, because Northern Epirus, is not exactly the northern part of Epirus, but just that part of Epirus that is under Albanian state, and that Konica, although in northern part of Epirus, actually is in Southern Epirus. (by the way I need a central Epirus).

Who cares whether Epir in Albanian is an old or a new loan? Totally irrelevant. It is the name in Albanian, today, period. (I'd guess it's pretty recent, but it can't be directly from Greek, probably rather through Italian or something, otherwise they it would have initial I- rather than E-, most likely.) And the concept of Northern Epirus is a neologism exactly as much as Aegean Macedonia, both are products of the carving up of territories during the early 20th century. And what are you ranting on about whether a name is "valuable" or not? That's precisely the nationalistic idiocy I've been warning against. "Values" of that sort are precisely what we ought not to be thinking about, at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * i don't know about the necessity of values, but i still don't see sources about how Albanians use the term and if they do. seriously is there any? it's just common sense to me for the Albanian language to be put second per whatwassaid. so it is valuable because of the Albanian community of Epirus? per otherstuffexists (sarcasm) you can see other (justified) examples of what we're saying. >. and note that in Gostivar and Tetovo, Albanians form the majority; in the Region of Epirus the minority. --CuteHappyBrute (talk) 20:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Othercrapexists, we know that. Albanians use Epir, for the region, so the name should be in the lead as a local official name, as per Fut. response. So, it should be first, or lets have a name section for it. What do you think?Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well it's reasonable enough to include it second if it is used by Albanians, but still I can't see the "local official" sense. And I don't think it's worth a name section by itself.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:57, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The sense of "official local" is clearly explained by Fut. so I have nothing to add.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fut. didn't explain official use, but "community" use. per community use see Gostivar and Tetovo. why do you make a big deal out of it? it's not an Albanian name. have you seen Greeks or anyone for that matter wanting Albanian (in the etymology) names to be mentioned in Greek- non-Albanian? ..--CuteHappyBrute (talk) 10:23, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS!Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:15, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is only meant in article deletion discussions, not content disputes. You either haven't even read it, or are just WP:LAWYER.  Of course what holds in related articles affects what goes on in this article!  --Tsourkpk (talk) 15:52, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow. I can't believe this is still going on. I understand that the literal "namesake" of Epirus must be preserved and presented accurately, but doesn't anyone think that this debate is a bit much? Deucalionite (talk) 16:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's only still going on because of Balkanian's sheer persistence. Seems to have fizzled out, but you never know.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)