Talk:Epirus revolt of 1611

Correct names for your time
Until the creation of Greece /1832/ Ioannina and its adjoining territory /land/ was in Albania. Epirus is an ancient story. Here is a source that provided a current map and historical map at that time. On the first map Ioannina is in Albania and on the second map the settlement does not exist in ancient Epirus.

ps. Do not remove the template! It's not a matter of liking it or not. (1828) 85.11.171.206 (talk) 21:51, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Your claim is easily disproved by a simple Google search: The result is a long series of books etc. mentioning the uprising in Epirus, headed by the Britannica article about Skylosophos. --T*U (talk) 22:10, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Greek vs Orthodox
The use of the term "Greek" is an anachronism at that time. The term "Greek" should be reserved only for "ethnic Greek". If you mean "Greek Orthodox", write simply "Orthodox". This will avoid confusion, especially as in the case of the Epirus revolt of 1611, there is a clear distinction between the insurgent Orthodox and the Greek notables of the city who sided against the revolt. Structuring (talk) 16:36, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Verified vs unverified works
The event is mentioned by Braddock and Clogg as one of many Greek revolts against Ottoman rule. I can't see any reason to replace this just with unverified material.Alexikoua (talk) 19:08, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you added information which you definitely know that the sources don't discuss. You added the following from Papadopoulos (1982) p.92: . The author writes: () --Maleschreiber (talk) 19:21, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Simply a bad faith edit by @Alexikoua, after I already explained this did not refer to the same event, and did not mean 40,000 Greeks were "gathered and ready to revolt". Not the first time of course. Çerçok (talk) 21:06, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Unverified? This is a book that has been published and peer-reviewed by members of the Albanian Academy of Sciences with many internationally peer-reviewed published articles as well. But if you don't like the book, here is Xhufi's chapter in another book from 2020: https://books.openedition.org/pumi/25936. Accept the truth. Çerçok (talk) 12:02, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Truth
This article, to put it mildly, provides a false account of the events it refers to. The works that were cited here until now, unfortunately, have intentionally distorted historical events and the documents that describe them in order to present them as some sort of Greek patriotic uprising. The good thing is that the newer source (Xhufi 2017) has exposed these falsehoods, and it brings the primary material to prove it. I would ask every editor here to read carefully below before editing Çerçok (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 1- Before 11.08.2022 the article stated: (Vranousis 1997).
 * The truth is revealed by Xhufi, p.756, citing the primary Venetian source: . I corrcted this sentence.
 * 2- The article currently states: . This is not true.
 * The part mentioning Greeks and the one mentioning Albanians both come from the same count from the same source - Xhufi mentions the Venetian reports range from 700-800 to 1100 (p.758). Vranousis 1997, as usual, simply falsified the primary material, which Xhufi fortunately cites in full: There is no room for 1000 Greeks here, there were only 700-1100 participants, and only Albanians are mentioned in the source. Tagging @Ktrimi991 since he mentioned it.
 * 3- The article currently states: . On p.785 Xhufi presents the Venetian primary source:.
 * 4- The introduction stating that it was an anti-Ottoman rebellion of Orthodox Christian Albanians was removed. In addition to all the evidence presented above, one more citation from a communication of the Ottoman Osman Pasha with the Venetian representative, which happened shortly after the rebellion: . Here the Pasha says no one will lend horses for the road to Thessaloniki because the Albanian rebels are still active in the mountain passes.

This was a rebellion of Albanians, even though the article is written to present it as a Greek one. Please either accept this truth and let it be public, or present evidence to the contrary. If you have sources, cite them as I did here.
 * The reference to the numbers of peasants who revolted is in fact the same for both claims and the original Venetian document mentions 700-800 Albanesi. I think that Sfyroeras (1997) didn't have access to the original source and simply wrote about the event from an early 20th or late 19th century work in Greek. Most of those who rebelled were in fact Albanians but most of those against whom they rebelled were also Albanians. This was a revolt of peasants against feudal overlords, one of the many peasant revolts in Europe in this era. --Maleschreiber (talk) 16:19, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This is how nationalist narratives twist historical events, and there are veteran editors here that insist on keeping this twisted version on Wikipedia. Çerçok (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Çerçok, I think you should continue your editing of this article. I will admit, before I personally had not really been aware of the details of this revolt, and just assumed it was a Greek rebellion since that is how it had been written on Wikipedia. That no longer seems to be the case. Alltan (talk) 01:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There's not just one kind of "nationalist narrative twisting". Your observation that the rebels were Albanians is correct, but the people they rebelled against were also Albanians who were wealthy landlords who oppressed peasants. If someone wants to write about an "anti-Ottoman Albanian revolt", they can definitely write about such a revolt but they first have to specify who the "Ottomans" were.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:08, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not opposed to stating everything as it is. But if you are referring to Xhufi's chapter, his claims about Osman Pasha and Dionysios are not nearly as direct as the ones I presented above. He also says Greeks helped the Pasha capture the leaders of the revolt. I did not add these details only because they are less convincing. Çerçok (talk) 20:02, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted the latest edit by User:Çerçok who appears to be attempting to erase information that is based on multiple reliable sources, in favor of the view of a single Albanian author. That is not how Wikipedia works. • ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ •  15:25, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * You have restored a lie. Stop this disruptive nationalistic editing. There were not 1000 Greeks and 700 Albanians. One source says 700-800 Albanians, the other says 1100 rebels without noting ethnicity. There are no 1000 Greeks.
 * I explained everything in this section of the talk page. I waited almost a week and no one presented evidence contrary to what I brought, so I put it in the article. If you want to present such evidence, please you are welcome to do so here and we will discuss the sources fairly. Çerçok (talk) 16:43, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * It is abundantly clear that you are the one engaging in disruptive editing across a range of articles, with the help of your fellow Albanian nationalists on this talk page and elsewhere. Yours is a transparent attempt to erase the Greek character of this and other historical events, despite the multiple reliable sources that contradict your position. You have cited a single Albanian author as a source while removing the others without a valid explanation, in clear violation of WP:NPOV. Where was your author published? What are his or her credentials? Is there an English translation available, or do we have to take your word for it? A cursory Google search reveals that Pëllumb Xhufi is cited exclusively by Albanian websites and YouTube channels. In any case, Pëllumb Xhufi—whoever he or she is—most certainly does not trump distinguished international historians like Richard Clogg.  • ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ •   18:55, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that Theodoros should understand that Xhufi in fact is saying nothing, but he's just citing the Venetian primary sources. If we choose to not mention the assessment of contemporary authors about the ethnicity of the peasants who rebelled, the article can mention what the primary sources discuss. But the article can't mention that 1000 Greeks and 700-800 Albanians rebelled because this didn't happen. The two different sources refer to the same people first as Albanians, then as Greeks.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:37, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've corrected several issues. About ethnicity I used the only comment which does exist in historiography: . I did change in the lead the description of Dionysios from to  since he was neither Greek Orthodox, nor a bishop. Doja (2022), p. 751: . Like I said to Cercok this was a revolt of Albanian peasants which was crushed by the combined interests of the Albanian Muslim landowners, the Greek/Christian Orthodox clergy and the Greek urban merchant class. Its later "re-narration" is another subject which doesn't correspond to the historical event itself. For the historical event itself there is complete agreement by three different historians: Giakoumis (2002), Psimouli (2006) [Psimuli (2016)], Doja (2022). The citations from Xhufi (2016) are in fact the Venetian reports of the era and can be cited with roughly the same historical notes in Bartl (1974) and other sources. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok, so why is this not in the lede? Because if there is even a trace of a Greek participating in a revolt, the article always claims it as some sort of Greek patriotic uprising for national liberation against the Ottoman oppressors (sometimes even without a single trace, as it was in this article). Çerçok (talk) 06:43, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * If Theodoros adds again content which doesn't correspond to what historiography discusses and doesn't reflect the events but ideological narratives which existed outside historiography then there should be admin oversight. The Greek urban class in Ioannina fought against this rebellion.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:46, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I have merely included information contained in the source cited with minor rewording, i.e. no WP:SYNTH whatsoever on my part. I agree regarding the need for oversight. It seems that you and the rest of the Albanian editors here want to rewrite the article exclusively on the basis of two Albanian authors with an obvious bias. Let's find out whether that is in accordance with the rules of Wikipedia.  • ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ •   16:03, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Psimouli (2006)/Psimuli (2016) written by the vice director of the General Archives of Greece writes the same thing as Doja, a professor at the University of Lille. There is no debate about the ethnicity of the peasants who rebelled in sources written by historians who have written specifically about these events and their ethnicity isn't even a crucial issue in these events. As Alltan explained, you can't contrast specialist sources with comments in passing. All senior editors know this and all understand that specialist sources have a much different weight than generic comments which can be found via ctrl + f. All specialist sources agree that the peasants who rebelled were Albanians and that this was a class revolt of small peasants which was crushed by the combined interests of Albanian landlords, Greek merchants, and the Greek Orthodox clergy. --Maleschreiber (talk) 16:20, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with Maleschreiber, the sources clearly mention the peasants as Albanians. This should be mentioned in the lead. Ahmet Q. (talk) 18:06, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No SYNTH whatsoever. First of all, Xhufi is a nationalist historian who should not be used anywhere on wikipedia. And replacing "former Greek Orthodox cleric" with "Christian figure", and replacing "Greek slogans" with "Christian slogans" is within WP:TEND. Khirurg (talk) 18:19, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Is representative of modern historiography? Absolutely not because both Doja (2022) and Psimuli (2016) describe the rebels as nothing else but Albanians. The problem is that Theodoros picked a passing comment by a source which doesn't even focus in this event and inserted it via SYNTHing as representative of a debate which doesn't exist. You also removed  from Psimouli - I assume by mistake. Does this description look  ... natural? If we want to describe his church in more specific terms we can just say "Catholic" instead of "Greek Orthodox who converted to Catholic". --Maleschreiber (talk) 18:29, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * In other words, you want to dismiss Braddock, Clogg and the other sources that clearly refer to a Greek revolt because they don't fit your narrative of Albanian purity. That is unacceptable. I did not remove the references to the rebels being "Albanians"; you and your fellow Albanian editors are the ones removing solidly sourced material. As for Psimouli, she is merely referring to the Venetian archives, but the article cannot be based entirely on a single primary source. And I fail to see how mentioning the religious conversion of Dionysios is "unnatural". It is more than pertinent to his ensuing conflict with and condemnation by the Greek Orthodox hierarchy. But why this strong Albanian aversion to a simple statement of fact? As I am not familiar with every single outlandish claim made by Albanian revisionists like Xhufi, perhaps you could enlighten us. Do Albanians really deny the Greekness of Dionysios himself? I suppose if Nikos Dendias isn't Greek, then no one else is either.  • ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ •   19:48, 20 August 2022 (UTC)


 * She isn't, this is the author's viewpoint as well. Academic bibliography is always ranked from specialist to generic and they have a different weight. This is what I'm saying to you and all senior editors can understand it as well. It's why in articles like Krokodeilos Kladas even though there are many sources which mention him as Albanian in passing, none of them is used because sources which focus on the subject have a much more detailed account which doesn't correspond to what non-specialist sources merely mention. --Maleschreiber (talk) 20:02, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "Σύμφωνα πάλι με τα βενετικά αρχεία" are the precise words she uses. And she mentions the "Greek-speaking rural population" of the region in the immediately preceding sentence, despite your suggestion that there could not have been any Greek rebels because the Greeks were confined to the cities. Your belief that the Venetian archives are the only source that matters cannot dictate the removal of alternative views, and certainly not that of the calibre of Richard Clogg. In any case, your sources don't even claim what you say they do, namely that there was no Greek participation in the rebellion whatsoever.  • ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ •   20:30, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The full quote by Psimuli (2016): The Venetian archives are the only archival source and Clogg is the author of a book designed for the general audience about the history of Greece. It is not a work written with this event in focus. In fact, this event is just a tiny comment in Clogg's book. Nobody would expect this to be used as a source which can be compared and contrasted to detailed studies. --Maleschreiber (talk) 20:56, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no valid reason to exclude it either. And Clogg certainly isn't alone in his assessment. In fact, non-Balkan authors invariably affirm the Greek context of the revolt. I refer you to WP:PRIMARY: "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them."   • ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ •   21:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There is a mountain of evidence and of course non-Balkan authors tent to be more neutral in their approach. What's really weird is that Doha does not provide any 'Venetian source' that claims that the revolutionaries were Albanian and also turning useless Greek historiography which according to him keeps hiding this fact. That's the opinion of a specific author which also happens to be Albanian. This needs to be stated in historiography section.Alexikoua (talk) 03:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Venetian documents have been presented here, through secondary sources, as per wiki guidelines, explicitly calling the rebels Albanians. Can you bring a single quote from a Venetian source, a single one, that refers to the rebels as Greeks? No. Accept the truth. Çerçok (talk) 07:34, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The mountain of evidence is that Albanian peasants in a class revolt fought against their oppressors of all ethnicities (landlords, merchants, clergy). WP:PRIMARY refers to the direct use of archival sources by editors themselves. Historians obviously use primary sources, they are the building block of historiography.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:59, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Venetian archives should be mentioned, but Wikipedia policy is clear: articles should not be based solely on primary sources. You yourself have stated that "[m]ost of those who rebelled were in fact Albanians", which necessarily implies that a minority had a different ethnic affiliation. What was the ethnicity of the non-Albanian minority of rebels, in your view? And was Dionysios himself a Greek or not?  • ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ •   15:28, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * An authors ethnicity/nationality is 100% absolutely irrelevant to their credibility. Comments like: "" are in poor taste of experts in the field like Doja and Xhufi. Comments like this are to be avoided. Alltan (talk) 16:12, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The sentence is not relevant for the subject of this article. The documents attest that the revolt was undertaken by Albanian peasants. Also, several other peoples made other revolts at that time in the region, there were not only "Sporadic revolts by Greek communities". That sentence is even mentioned into the lead of the section, but I can't see a reason for its inclusion into this article, it's just misleading. – Βατο (talk) 10:45, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You are completely correct Bato, the users who are edit-warring to include this have yet to explain how this is relevant to the article. Ahmet Q. (talk) 14:36, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Nothing misleading, just the usual WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:TAGTEAMING. Khirurg (talk) 14:38, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Great argumentation. Ahmet Q. (talk) 14:39, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * To be precise Venetian sources claimed that those farmers were Albanians, nevertheless the uprising was described in detail by various Greek and Spanish sources. There is evidence that Greek and Aromanians took also part in the uprising. On the other hand Xhufi as a partisan source describes a fictional SYNTH (claims that Dionysios is Albanian etc, no wonder he also considers Alexander the Great as part of his Albanian history), he fails to explain why the Greek population of Ioannina was expelled from the castle after the failed rebellion.Alexikoua (talk)
 * The partisan one is actually Vranousis who shamelessly falsified the primary source from 1000 Albanians into 1000 Greeks, and yourself since you easily accept and promote this falsehood. Çerçok (talk) 08:04, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you provide the specific quote by Vranousis (that mentions Greeks as the only participants in this uprising)? Alexikoua (talk) 21:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It is something you have edited in yourself many times, ex: . Çerçok (talk) 03:27, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Before updating the article I provide below scholarship on the issue:


 * (Floristan cites this uprising is an example of having left the Greeks at the mercy of the Turks, in the context of revolutionary preparations)
 * Comment: In historiography and sources which specifically discuss this event in detail as well as in primary/archival sources of the era, there is just one description. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:49, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Let me correct you: In historiography and sources which specifically discuss as well in primary /archival sources of the era we have various descriptions (Maximos' the most detailed one). Hatzopoulos, Hasiotis, Koukoudis, Saradi: are clear that this was not a revolt exclusively by Albanian farmers.Alexikoua (talk) 03:08, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This matter has already been discussed and resolved in this talk page, above. The authors you cite either did not have access to the primary material - except for Floristan (the passage you cited does not mention the rebels despite your SYNTH attempt). Most of these only mention the revolt in passing and have not studied it properly. However if any one of these includes direct citations from a primary source, please present it here. Çerçok (talk) 03:19, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Exactly and the conclusion is that not only Albanian farmers participated. The authors you cite either did not have access to the primary material -. You have to be kidding. Those sources are very detailed on the issue. You are welcome to take them to RSN. If someone is partisan here that's Xhufi you know it. It's at least childish to say that top graded authors such as Hasiotis, Vakalopoulos have not access to the sources they are citing.Alexikoua (talk) 03:24, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * They either did not have the sources or they falsified them, one of the two. Read the primary material yourself if you want, it is clear. Thankfully more recent literature has already clarified this. Çerçok (talk) 20:21, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It appears that the article relies too much on Xhufi's polemics. Schmitt states in reference to this revolt and Xhufi's narrative: . Alexikoua (talk) 03:58, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * They either did not have the sources or they falsified them. Yet again wp:OR. The only author that has been repeatedly dismissed by scholarship for wide-scale falsification is P. Xhufi (Schmit etc. are very detailed on this). Hasiotis, Vakalopoulos, as top scholars and specialist on the issue have been also extensively used by Albanian editors in the past. No wonder there is also no RSN filled against them so far.Alexikoua (talk) 02:54, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Having several RSN against an author with 0 results is evidence of reliability. Please cite in full the falsified part of Vranousis that you had put in this article. Çerçok (talk) 21:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no falsified part of Vranousis. The only one that's falsifying primary material is Xhufi (a self declared nationalist).Alexikoua (talk) 02:46, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why don't you quote the part? We can judge for ourselves whether it is falsified. Evasive behavior won't get you anywhere. Accept verifiable truth. Çerçok (talk) 10:06, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It appears that the article relies too much on Xhufi's polemics. Schmitt states in reference to this revolt and Xhufi's narrative: . Alexikoua (talk) 03:58, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * They either did not have the sources or they falsified them. Yet again wp:OR. The only author that has been repeatedly dismissed by scholarship for wide-scale falsification is P. Xhufi (Schmit etc. are very detailed on this). Hasiotis, Vakalopoulos, as top scholars and specialist on the issue have been also extensively used by Albanian editors in the past. No wonder there is also no RSN filled against them so far.Alexikoua (talk) 02:54, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Having several RSN against an author with 0 results is evidence of reliability. Please cite in full the falsified part of Vranousis that you had put in this article. Çerçok (talk) 21:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no falsified part of Vranousis. The only one that's falsifying primary material is Xhufi (a self declared nationalist).Alexikoua (talk) 02:46, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why don't you quote the part? We can judge for ourselves whether it is falsified. Evasive behavior won't get you anywhere. Accept verifiable truth. Çerçok (talk) 10:06, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Ioannina before the revolt
It's obvious that the situation in Ioannina before the incident that culminated in Ioannina makes an essential part of this article. The inline reference begins with the description of the 1611 revolt in the same manner.Alexikoua (talk) 03:42, 3 January 2023 (UTC)


 * That has absolutely nothing to do with the subject, it is completely unnecessary and undue. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:18, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, it was not a Greek rebellion so the category has to be removed. Ahmet Q. (talk) 10:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The revolt in Ioannina 'is' the subject of this revolt (no wonder the source also makes the same introduction when describing this revolt as such you first need to take it to RSN). Also per article Dionysios' declaration in Europe the revolt aimed at the liberation of Greece. Considering also that Ioannina's Greek community was the first to be subject to Ottoman counter-measures the addition of the category is fine.Alexikoua (talk) 02:56, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yet no argument why Lellio is useless as a source. To sum up the situation in Ioannina is essential for the background since the rebellion culminated in Ioannina. Any doubt? Since the event is organized by a Greek personality and had a major impact on Greek communities its hard to claim its unrelated to Greek history hence the category Greek rebellion.Alexikoua (talk) 05:07, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yet another issue is that the events prior to 1611 in Ioannina (back to 1430) belong to the background section. We should avoid chronological inconsistencies of that kind. By the way the inline reference also places the pre-1611 description of Ioannina before the description of the rebellion. We should do that also.Alexikoua (talk)

Intro part
The lead description obviously faces OR & POV issues. In short I fail to see any work in bibliography summarizing the incident straight as a "rebellion by Albanian peasants" [] they prefer descriptions such as "peasant", "anti-Ottoman", "Christian" revolt or "revolt led by Dionysios". Long story short: Albanian peasants participated in this incident but this was one aspect of the rebellion as such bibliography does not mentioned it simply as Albanian rebellion. Even Doja and Psimuli don't mention it straight as a revolt by Albanian peasants. The intro part should reflect this accordingly. On the other hand conclusions provided by Floristan's work which is based on archival correspondence and Spanish archives in Madrid of that time should also be included in lead.Alexikoua (talk) 04:22, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Though I'm not against an Albanian participation, a revolt that was lead by a Greek and supported by Greek military figures warrants the inclusion of the appropriate category of Greek rebbelion during Ottoman era.Alexikoua (talk) 20:53, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Replying to this explanation [] the Orlov revolt is part of a Russo-Turkish conflict which is quite clear from infobox. As such this revolt concerns a conflict where Greek subjects participated to overthrow Ottoman rule (more precise it was led and supported by Greeks and it's cited in the text by Psimouli and Floristan) everything points to that.Alexikoua (talk) 01:30, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Should the Greek war of Independence be considered an Albanian revolt because it had Albanians in it? Alltan (talk) 10:18, 9 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Why not initiate a topic there? As far I know there was no movement for an independent Albanian state in the Greek revolution. On the other hand Dionysios struggled for an independent Greek state: per Floristan's research on the Madrid archives precisely stating about the liberation of Greece (Dionisio, espiritu sonador e inquieto, no supo medir foerzas, y su ardient desco de expulsar a los turcos de Grecia le engano.) : Grecia not Albania . Psimouli also states that it had the support of Greek military personalities. Your stubborn denial of the bibliography needs to be reconsidered. Alexikoua (talk) 03:21, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Your serious misunderstanding of the source material should not affect the article. Start an RfC. Alltan (talk) 21:32, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually you are the one that challenges this fact, per wp:BRD you need to provide valid arguments for removal but so far you have not provided any.Alexikoua (talk) 00:41, 11 July 2023 (UTC)