Talk:Epoka University

Affiliation between Epoka University and Bedër University
Dear User:Nomoskedasticity, dear User:Mdann52, the dispute over the affiliation between these two universities is silly, because they both openly admit their relationship on their webpages:


 * Epoka University: http://www.epoka.edu.al/?lang=EN&pid=4&newsid=356&ntitle=Epoka-University-and-H%EBna-e-Plot%EB-%28BED%CBR%29-University-Sign-Memorandum-of-Understanding
 * Bedër University: http://www.beder.edu.al/njoftime.php?kategoria=njoftime&nr=112

Beder's rector has previously served as Epoka's vice-rector and provost - he states this in his bio: http://www.beder.edu.al/faqe.php?kategoria=rreth-universitetit&hap=&sub=381

For the association between Epoka and Gulen, see this book: Muslim Cultures Today: A Reference Guide - 2006, Page 18, books.google.com/books?isbn=0313323860 Kathryn M. Coughlin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kcoughlin

The author, a respected Harvard scholar and president of a nonprofit dedicated to research on the Islamic world, discusses Gulen's "Mehmet Akif" schools in Tirana, which are high schools run by a company called Gulistan (notice the name): http://www.gulistan.edu.al/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=27 and another company called "Turgut Ozal Education Company": http://turgutozal.edu.al/ Epoka University is the next level up these, as stated in their own webpage: http://www.epoka.edu.al/?lang=EN&pid=2&catid=1&menuid=2

Vetevendosje (talk) 17:11, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Gulen
Editors with concerns about the material on the Gulen movement in connection with this university are invited to discuss their concerns here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Dear User:Nomoskedasticity, I wanted to point out that the paper published by the person is just an assumption of his that this university might be connected to Gulen movement, and that does not make the university itself part of it. Related to the same article someone has written that most of the staff is connected with this movement (or finished universities), I have to say that again such assumption is not right. If there might have been one or some staff finishing there doesn't make an argument to do such a statement, if so then I have to say you could add also other movements into it. But in this way you are lowering the integrity of a university well known in Albania. For this reason, I would kindly ask you to remove those statements linking this university with a movement. Thank you, Eagly (talk) 17:26, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The source is unequivocal: "the new Turkish presence in the Balkans is most visible in the schools and universities of the Gülen network42 (such as the Burç University in Sarajevo and Epoka University in Tirana)..." We have to go by what the sources say; it is not up to Wikipedia editors to adopt the view that a source is incorrect unless there is contradictory evidence in another source.  (Apart from that -- why is it "lowering the integrity" of the university to note the association?)  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Dear User:Nomoskedasticity, Epoka University's association with the Gulen Movement, as well as Beder University, is well documented in a number of sources, including many serious academic publications:


 * http://turkishinvitations.weebly.com/every-continent-but-antarctica.html
 * http://www.epoka.edu.al/department.php?did=7&dpid=2&catid=344&menuid=345
 * http://www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=259260 (a newspaper of the Gulen movement itself)
 * http://nextinline.eu/in-albania-madrasas-even-the-secular-love/
 * http://relindonesia.blogspot.nl/2011/03/turkish-colleges-and-epoka-university.html
 * http://www.islaminalbania.com/2011/02/gulen-movement-in-albania-new.html
 * http://www.iais.org.my/e/attach/2nd_ICIHE/ppts/Dr.%20Mesut%20Idriz.pdf
 * http://balkanspace.org/mat.php?lang=2&idm=217&idr=36
 * http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/docserver/22117954/1/1/22117954_001_01_S04_text.pdf?expires=1352722746&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=88503170B303877629219570D707D3B7
 * http://gulenschoolsworldwide.blogspot.nl/2011/01/gulen-schools-of-albania-once-part-of.html
 * http://tjp.fatih.edu.tr/docs/articles/110.pdf
 * http://sinizer.wordpress.com/2011/09/
 * http://www.acus.org/files/TAR/030112_ACUS_Bugajski.PDF

Just run a Google search. I have only included the least controversial ones in the article. I am not trying to start editing wars, I just want to write the objective truth. Anamericantragedy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anamericantragedy (talk • contribs) 12:10, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Who is arguing otherwise? Certainly not I.  But before you add references to this article, you'll need to learn Wikipedia's policy about "reliable sources".  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:43, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, are the current sources in compliance with the Wikipedia's policy about "reliable sources"? If they aren't, I'd be happy to add other sources, etc. Apart from that, I do not like the fact that some Wiki editors are bothered by, and eager to conceal, the religious associations of Epoka University - which, as I showed above, are real. I'd be glad to know that you are not among them, but simply trying to preserve certain editing standards. Anamericantragedy (talk) 13:24, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Who is concealing anything?? In reverting your edit, I am not removing the assertion re Gulen that was already in the article before you arrived -- I am merely rejecting the sources you are bringing because they do not appear to comply with WP:RS. If you think they do, please make your case -- but be aware that WP:BRD is a widely accepted practice here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Dear User:Mdann52, The purpose of Wikipedia is not to have "stable" but reliable and truthful articles. Please do not delete the well referenced work of others. If you feel that the sources aren't reliable, you can modify them - above there is a long list of other sources that prove my point. Also, you can add a stamp. Anamericantragedy (talk) 13:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * And, you can certainly NOT delete articles that are not to your personal liking. If you find that an entry is not objective according to Wikipedia criteria, please bring in alternative views (which I'm sure you can't find in this case).Anamericantragedy (talk) 13:34, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Remove redlinked image
Please remove File:Logo_of_Epoka_University.png. Ta. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 22:32, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone please remind me why this one is fully protected? If it was edit-warring -- then the edit-warriers should be blocked.  Indefinite full protection is unacceptable.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:32, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've unprotected the page and will monitor it. — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 10:18, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Gulen and "allegations"
Please discuss here the notion that the university is "nonsectarian" and that the Gulen assertion is merely an "allegation". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * It is 'allegedly' as all the sources below, credible or not, are only hinting but NOT offering any direct proof: a document, a statement etc. Hence, if you want to apply WP:OR, we must add the word 'ALLEGEDLY'.


 * Second, if it were not non-sectarian, its operation would have been prohibited by law in Albania. Furthermore, many students including my son Gjergji have attended these schools, and do not have any affiliations with such movements and/or any religious community. If you have any doubt about that, then you should try and edit the wiki page of Brandais University, Tulane, NYU, just to name a few.


 * It is NOT true that non-sectarian universities are not allowed to operate in Albania. Examples of religiously affiliated universities include Beder University (Muslim, founded by the Muslim community of Albania, see discussion above) and Zoja e Keshillit te Mire (Catholic, founded by Catholic charities). Both of these are in the capital, in plain view.Vetevendosje (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I do understand your passion, but please understand that your persistence is worrisome and offensive to me and my family. Alas, I'm not the only one :-( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.174 (talk) 10:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that's not how WP:V works. The source in question (there's only one being used) is unequivocal: "the new Turkish presence in the Balkans is most visible in the schools and universities of the Gülen network (such as the Burç University in Sarajevo and Epoka University in Tirana)...".  That's not an "allegation", and for a Wikipedia editor (such as yourself) to use the word allegation when the source does not is WP:OR.  The fact is, the assertion in our article is verified by a reliable source.  If you wanted to raise meaningful questions about this, you'd have to produce another source that directly contradicts it.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the only thing those references are proving is the existence of allegations. Please call for help from serious editors on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.174 (talk) 10:33, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear Nomoskedasticity, please pardon me if I was offensive in my last paragraph but, I do have some experience in these things, and I am really afraid that you may lead the page to get flagged as contraversial or biased. Both of us took the trouble to look at the documents but none of them, especially not the one that is cited, proves directly --- by, say, showing a document --- that the school belongs to the movement. To us as editors it only proves that there are such allegations, and we cite the source where such claims are stated.  I think that logically we are clean and neat here. Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.174 (talk) 11:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the article for 1 month because of the edit warring, and because Nomoskedasticity does seem to be right about the source. The source very clearly states that Epoka University is part of the Gülen movement, and we don't have any contradicting sources, so there's no basis in Wikipedia policy to say that the university is merely "alleged" to be part of the movement. If there are any contradicting reliable sources that you are aware of, though, this could change. IP, to get an idea of when we use things like "alleged", you need to read WP:YESPOV, "Avoid presenting uncontested factual assertions as mere opinion." I hope this makes sense, but do let me know if you have any questions about this. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 13:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Since a bit of research into the Epoka's website reveals that the institution is secular ion is secular https://docs.google.com/a/epoka.edu.al/leaf?id=1TN6QCjCfxQ9q-GOG9PJvTGdRxP8dA5yK3rpTtREbIVc&sort=name&layout=list&pid=0B1OgQgHMX4DVNWNjYTE0NTUtNmM4YS00ZjRjLWE3MjktZDc0MzBjMjc5MDU5, as suggested by Mr. Stradivarius we should say that the institute is secular but that Kerem Oktem claims it be a part of the Gulen movement.  Correspondingly, we should remove this info from the Infobox.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefina (talk • contribs)
 * There's no reason at all to use "claims" for one assertion but not the other. I have therefore removed "claims" re Gulen; I have also re-worded it to avoid WP:SYNTH.  I also fail to see why it should be removed from the info box.  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:01, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * In that case we can say that the University claims itself to be secular, though Kerem Oktem claims that it is a part of Gulen Movement which... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefina (talk • contribs) 17:10, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, as it does not present the "unifying aspect" of the article, I've removed the information from the Infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefina (talk • contribs) 17:17, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Universities, especially in Albania, can make all sorts of claims. For example, this university also claims to be the best in the country, to perform "cutting edge research", etc. etc.: http://www.epoka.edu.al/?lang=EN&pid=2&catid=1&menuid=1 These claims are laughable. So, the assertions of independent sources are what matters here. The Oxford source should override EU's bogus claims.Vetevendosje (talk) 17:46, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * ->> The job of Wikipedia is not to flag facts as 'laughable' or not. You may try to crawl the publication lists and see the amount of relevant publications done by faculty members of each university in Balkan Peninsula. Then, you can publish your findings at some respected journal, and cite them here. So far, I don't give any credit to your claims regardless of your passion. Regards --- Sefina  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sefina (talk • contribs) 18:09, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * There is no WP rule that says that independent sources must override businesses' own claims. Think of it a bit out of the box as when you say that universities especially in Albania can claim anything, that means that something is wrong with the people who buy those claims and use these universities, and with the government that allows them to operate. In turn, you come to blame people again for voting the government and going to these schools. You may be spitting on your own people's face :-( Kind regards --- Sefina
 * User:Sefina you sound like you are part of the Gulen movement yourself, therefore have a conflict of interest that should not be editing at all pages related to the movement's activities. I let Stradivarius know about this. Just a warning - you might get blocked for engaging in edit warring.Vetevendosje (talk) 18:21, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Useful source
I think this source is important for our discussion here. It indicates that the Gulen movement runs secular schools -- so there is no contradiction between Epoka identifying itself as secular and yet being affiliated with the Gulen movement. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:31, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Very useful indeed. Thanks for your research.Vetevendosje (talk) 13:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110820053014/http://www.epoka.edu.al/new/mat/self_evaluatrion_report.pdf to http://www.epoka.edu.al/new/mat/self_evaluatrion_report.pdf

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