Talk:Equivalent Exchange

To do
Hellos. I'm someone that browses around Wikipedia on a regular, daily, basis and decided to help out on the article. Perhaps some more (general) examples of equivalent exchange used in FMA would be good for here as well. I forgot my username tag stuff --Xavier Valentine 02:59, 24 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Someone help and improve here! I'd like a little critique from someone who has seen the series more repeatedly (I've only seen Fullmetal Alchemist once completely through). --Xavier Valentine 23:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

It's fictional, right?
So I reworded the beginning to be more like that. In addition, are we sure it's "Equivalent E xchange"? And I moved the quote to the bottom. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 16:28, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Laws of Thermodynamics and Laws of Alchemy
Could it be considered that the second law of thermodynamics could be the equivalent to the unstated second law of alchemy? The first law of alchemy can already be considered similar to the first law of thermodynamics, or Conservation of Mass/Energy. --Xavier Valentine 22:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * It could well be; the alchemists could unwittingly have made the assumption that entropy/order were free, and that mass was the only restriction. --maru (talk) contribs 07:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Other Meanings
I added the Other Meanings heading to make some room for other paragraphs about E2 that mean something as well other than Alchemy. Equivalent Exchange doesn't always have to relate to only alchemy. It's also the way life works. One cannot get anything such as money without sacrificing something in return, such as a job or assignment, meaning that one has to work for something to get something.


 * Other meanings? Perhaps, it'd be great to also find other usages of the term E2 outside alchemy and outside Fullmetal Alchemist. The term however has a heavy connectiong to the FMA Anime; perhaps some additional quotation and ideas could be attached to it. However, should it really broaden out further? --Xavier Valentine 04:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Any suggestions for the "other meanings?" Ideas such as a google search for E2 minus "Alchemy" and "Alchemist"? For instance, a writing about theories of law comes up: http://www.marxists.org/archive/pashukanis/1924/law/ch07.htm Of course, that is just an example, but additional quotations and term quoted from those outside the anime could work for the Other Meanings section. --Xavier Valentine 05:21:02, 2005-07-27 (UTC)

A lot of interpretation here...
Can we stick with the facts and not original research? &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 16:51, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

FMA Equivalent Exchange Debunk
I just added that the concept of EE is actually debunked in the anime series to the Final Conclusions section. I thought it would be something important to note for readers. I had to edit it twice because there's an unnecessary spoiler in what I typed. I had intended on going indepth on it more but I figured that would be something that could be done later in a massive spoiler link or something. --ShoutaShura


 * I just removed it because what you added is more fan-speculation than the actual content of the show. EE is never "debunked" or proved in the anime. Each character has a different opinion and while you might be allowed to say that a particular character offered an opinion, you are not allowed to make the claim that EE is debunked.

For posterity, here is the snippet:


 * "The concept of physical Equivalent Exchange in alchemy itself is denounced late in the series by a major character. The principle idea of Equivalent Exchange remains true in that the end result must be equivalent to the materials you put into it. However, an energy source is required to catalyze the transmutation and this energy is then lost without it being returned."

From my memory, I do not think that this was an unreasonable conclusion to draw, whether or not it was explicitly stated or implied to the point of explicitness is up to debate, but some mention of this should be kept. &mdash; Ambush Commander (Talk) 20:18, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree personally. The fundamentals of EE are presented within the show time and time again. You need to have equivalent material to get an equivalent end result. I think the comment by the major character later into the series does disprove the concept of EE in the strictest sense (which I had in my edit initially). Your comment on the differing opinions of the characters is for their philosphy and not the actual science (or psuedo-science for the strict folks) implored for the series. Fan speculation is also based around the philosphy and not the actual physical concepts. I can agree with that but the physical (or scientific, however I should put it) concept of EE is definitely wrong in how it's viewed for the series as a whole as it does require something more than the equivalent materials. Ed's various speeches through the series makes a point of this. I'd like to hear more from you on this before we go off and decide to do anything else with the entry. --ShoutaShura 06:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * EE is largely debunked, I'd say. We are told quite clearly that the cost of human transmutation is seriously inquitable- it takes the deaths of tens of thousands as crystallized in the Philosopher's Stone to revive a single human, for instance.  And it is not too unreasonable to think that since the Gate is powered by the deaths of millions in the other world, that the price of the main FMA world's use of alchemy is inequitable as well. --maru  (talk) contribs 01:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont agree. First, human transmutation is impossible even with the Philospher's Stone. No human (including Edward) is ever revived from death. Healing bodies and soul attachment is possible, but not bringing back the dead. The question of how many lives is an EE for a Philosopher's Stone is even more complicated. As Edward said in Mother, the materials can be quantified but what is the EE for a soul (or a life for that matter). Beyond that, even Hohenheim at the very end of the series is explaining to Edward why things ended up the way they did in terms of equivelent exchange. EE can't be said to be debunked because its two different things. You may be able to prove or disprove the physical law part of it, but the philosophical question of it can't be resolved by facts. There is no authority in the FMA world that can definitively explain the nature of equivlence or what consistutes an EE exchange in a non-material sense.


 * It astounds me how many people actually buy in to Dante's speech at the end. She doesn't believe in equivalent exchange because of her Super-size Ego. Look at her mark - it's either the Ourobouros unbound (Lookit me! I'm above equivalence!!) or The Serpent in a Gnostic/Alchemical context (remember philosophical Alchemy descended from Gnosticism). Either way, she thinks she's above everything else. It's demonstrated that this isn't true by her rotting body. Can we also stop quoting fansubs, please? It's also implied in the series that the price for a life is indeed a life, but not just someone being 'alive'. It's Life itself, your experiences. When Al brought Ed back, he paid in equivalence with his experience, and that's why he was stripped of his memories. Wow...the more I read this article, the worse it gets. As for human transmutation, part of the problem is not using the actual remains of the person you're trying to transmute. Wrath was transmuted directly from 'his own' corpse, not only allowing him to age normally but also stripping him of any 'trademark' homunculus powers. All of the other homunculi (it is assumed) were made from the basic ingredients for a human being all poured into a bucket...which wasn't enough, considering what it takes to create a human being (as mentioned by Ed during the delivery of Hughe's baby). I generally understand this to be the reason why red stones stabilize a botched homunculus, because it provides at least one life for the completion of the Homunculus (notice that when you fight one of them, one stone = one life).--65.188.55.90 01:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Human Alchemy
Anyone happen to have the list of ingredients used to make a human? I remember Ed reading the list off to Rose early in the series. I wanted to run them through my med books to see if they were accurate. --Feb 19, 2006


 * Wikipedia is a wonderful resource, as are its sister projects like Wikiquote; http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fullmetal_Alchemist#To_Challenge_the_Sun_.5B1.01.5D. --maru (talk) contribs 19:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Reference to karma...?
Simba 01:09, 23 March 2006 (UTC) :: "From the first time I saw the first episode, FMA's whole concept of 'equivilent exchange' seemed like a blatant reference to the concept of karma to me; the idea that, in the end, the good are rewarded and the evil are punished. Additionally, the Ouroboros reference and 'One is All; All is One,' concept also seem reminiscent of karma -- that ultimately, one person's pleasure comes at the cost of another's pain, one person's luxury comes at the expense of another's hardship (i.e. 'equivilent exchange'). Maybe there is no connection and I'm just imagining it, but this may be something worth mentioning in the article."

Generalizing Equivalent Exchange

 * Hi. I would just like to point out that the concept of "equivalent exchange" is an integral part of Japanese perceptual culture, and is not limited solely to Fullmetal Alchemist. Id est, themes revolving around the idea appear in many other manga/anime as well (recently, I would cite Fate/stay night and xxxHoLiC). As such, we should modify the phrasing of this article to indicate that though "equivalent exchange" as a term was popularised by FMA, the idea itself is not new and appears in various other forms of entertainment as well.

Differentiation between anime and manga "facts"
The article does not currently separate what was said in the manga and anime and this could cause some confusion for some readers. Maybe some form of indication could be added?

Manga - Real Life Facts
Since this article deals with Equivilent Exchange in Fullmetal Alchemist, should modern sciences be talked about in the article about how chemistry developed from alchemy. That has nothing to do with the Manga, or at least not this aspect of it. These seem to belong more in the Alchemy Wikipedia or maybe the trivia of the Fullmetal Alchemist wiki.

Full Metal Anime
This article seems to keep to the universe expressed in the anime "Full Metal Alchemist", but Arakawa has other visions which are expressed in the manga "Full Metal Alchemist". Are these visions discussed elsewhere? Statements like those related to the creation of homunculi are only true in the anime. What happens in the manga often contradicts what happened in the movie, is what I'm saying.

Spoilers
I think the spoiler warning should be further up the page. I mean, the final conlusion about Exquivalent Exchange is pretty spoiler-y, isn't it? Considering it's dialogue straight from the last episode...

Quotes and Title
Are the quotes cited in the article translations of the Japanese version? It seems odd that all of the quotes refer to "equivalent trade" while the title is Equivalent Exchange (which was in the English version of the TV series).

Fullmetal Alchemist Box
I added the Fullmetal Alchemist Box because Equivalent Exchange is one of the FMA linked to from said box. It's at the bottom. Jaimeastorga2000 04:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Toka Koka
Just thought the Japanese phrase should be included: Toka Koka. Perhaps there are better translations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.172.87.172 (talk) 22:11, 29 September 2015 (UTC)