Talk:Erfurt latrine disaster

HOAX
For anyone saying its a hoax who exactly hoaxed this? Would it have been the German language version of wikipedia that has not only a much more lengthy version of this article but also includes separate wikipedia pages on many of the nobles who died in the event where it lists them all as having the same date and cause of death? Would it be the famed and well respected German historian Gottfried Gabriel who has written books about the event who hoaxed it? Would it have been the town of Erfurt itself who literally included the event firsthand in its town chronicle back in 1184 when it occurred? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marisam77 (talk • contribs) 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Who is saying it's a hoax?  Nik ol ai h ☎️📖 23:46, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Naming the disaster / event in English
On 20 May, an IP user changed occurences of "disaster" into "event" and "accident" into "occurence".

In his edit comments he used an anti-feudal argument to support this change: 'They were worthless thieves so their deaths are nothing tragic' (summed up in my own words).

I think I will revert these changes soon, as this line of arguing aims at depriving the victims of their humanity because of their social status. Still I would like to give '2603:3005:6e01:6a00:74b4:36cc:3315:8a34' a chance to further express his thoughts here and discuss. --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 10:35, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The incident is not named Erfurt latrine disaster in English. That term gets 0 Google Books search hits. Erfurter Latrinensturz is likewise hardly an established name in German; it gets 2 hits. Therefore the article title should not appear verbatim in the lead sentence per WP:REDUNDANCY and WP:AVOIDBOLD. Having it bolded in the lead sentence suggests that it is the established name in historiography, which it is not; and it leads to redundancy such as mentioning Erfurt twice for no-one's benefit. Surtsicna (talk) 11:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't get what you are trying to achieve here Surtsicna. Your editing seems destructive to me. If you think that "Erfurter Latrinensturz" is not the correct title or designation for the article's topic, then what is? (And why are you not consequently trying to change the article's title as well, if you think you are right and can prove it?) Btw are you also the IP User I opened this talk page section for, earlier?


 * You can try to explain here, and if your insights are an improvement and you can prove it with reliable sources, then chances are that your changes will be kept. But first I will revert the article once more to the situation before your attempts to erase the English and the German designation of this historical event from the article text.


 * My grounds for reverting: "Erfurter Latrinensturz" is the established German title for this event.


 * Look into the sources. Yes, the three contemporary chronicle sources are in Latin, but the secondary literature sources naming it "Erfurter Latrinensturz" are not: 4 English, 3 German. (Google Books is not omniscient nor the only way to establish relevance.)


 * Can you prove that this is not the case? Then please do so here (on this talk page) and try to establish consensus for your position before editing the article again in this way. --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Which 4 English language secondary sources call this event "Erfurter Latrinensturz"? I am having trouble finding them. Surtsicna (talk) 22:42, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The very first source ("Fortweekly") even has it in its title: "The Erfurter Latrinensturz". Just klick on the little [1] at the end of the introductory paragraph.
 * Btw: you didn't reply to my 'btw' question above nor to my request for an alternative title suggestion. I think there is some old WP guideline saying that the one who changes content has to verify his changes, what do you think about that? --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not suggesting a title change. I am suggesting rewording the lead sentence in a way that does not imply that "Erfurt latrine disaster" is an established name for the event in historiography - because it is not. There is no requirement whatsoever that the article title should appear in boldface in the lead sentence. In fact, WP:AVOIDBOLD and WP:REDUNDANCY advise against doing so in cases like this. Surtsicna (talk) 08:54, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Currently the lead section claims, explicitly, that the event is called Erfurt latrine disaster in secondary sources. It cites three sources for the claim, two of which do not name the event at all but merely describe it. Arnold and Magnusson do not use the term "Erfurt latrine disaster" anywhere in their books. Surtsicna (talk) 19:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * You are correct. A correct phrasing would be "is called Erfurt latrine disaster in one secondary source", which would sound silly. What do you think of "Erfurter Latrinensturz" being the established German descriptor and mentioning that in the article? --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 19:19, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Uh... I am not sure about that either. Yes, "Erfurter Latrinensturz" does appear in German much more than "Erfurt latrine disaster" appears in English. But that might be because the event is, naturally, more commonly written about in German. I feel like this is one of those events that are covered in historiography without having a proper name in any language, like the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD or coronation of Napoleon. Surtsicna (talk) 20:50, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

What about the aftermath?
I feel this article lacks a section about the aftermath of the tragedy. What consequences were there for the affected noble families, the power balance, the original conflict, the king's reign, and architectonial practice? 2001:4641:AB76:0:E8FB:F645:3861:EEC3 (talk) 23:12, 27 August 2022 (UTC)