Talk:Eric Lerner/Archive 1

NPOV
The ideas which Lerner espouses are generally regarded as so outlandish by mainstream physicists that he is essentially ignored in that community.

Prove it.

The real question is not really about Lerner at all--nor is it about his credentials which some may properly envy--if for nothing other than simple notoriety! The FACT is that the Big Bang Theory has many flaws which can only be resolved 'on paper' that is with ad hoc additions such as super strings or dark matter (reminiscent of epeicycles and epicyclets). To say that a person is a so and so is school yardish and you should be ashamed of yourselves--really! The Big Bang Theory is really what is on the line after all the rubbish is hauled off the stage, and we can look at the universe as it is rather than as a few 'sparkplugs' think it ought to. When I was about -- oh three or maybe four, I looked up at the night-sky and asked my pa "how big is THAT" and he told me that "THAT was endless." Another time at the dinner table (a few exhausting days later--I'd tried to wrap my little mind around infinity and accepted that this particular project would escape me FOREVER) I asked him when IT all started and of course he told me that IT had no beginning. Now this was in about oh 1964 or 1965 and the Big Bang Theory, as it was coined by Sir Fred Hoyle--who gave it that name as a joke--was not as of yet taken by some of you as GOSPEL TRUTH. Anyway, back to the comment about who is a so and so and who is not one, for as Steve Miller once said: "Let me whip a cat on you right now...Here we go--one two:" There was a time once here on earth when magic ruled. And the rule of the magi is that knowledge is kept secret--or else! We look back and laugh at the notion that people once thought the earth was flat. Educated people never thought the earth was flat, but some of them meant to keep it a secret. A truly sharp astronomer could suspect that the sun was the center of the solar system through observation, meditation and a little insight, and what "modern" astronomers make up for with expensive gadgets and theories, they sometimes (not all the time) lack a respect for "ancient" astronomers. The trouble was gentlewomen (not meant as an insult, hopefully) that due to the system of magic, no one was allowed to "let the cat out of the bag" and so on. Every so often some poor 'rat', like Copernicus or Galileo would come along and quite ignorantly start running his mouth! and get common folks (with no business discussing such lofty subjects as the flat earth's place in a geocentric universe) all in a commotion about "the truth." Who knows, Jesus could have been saying the same thing at the sermon on the mount, if he said "the earth is not the center of the universe, any more than is Rome" that it would have made the New Testament? Yet he was visited by Magi, astrosomethingorothers???? And he went to Egypt to escape Herod????? You can't make this stuff up, right? Funny thing though, if you ask the kid (unk1961)? I personally think the Big Bang Theory (TBBT) is nothing more than new age geocentricism and could only work if you invent a flat earth where people sprout from amoeba. Why? Because I can't get my mind around the idea that if you have a bang at point 'a', point 'a' becomes more important than point 'b' and I just do not find that to be POLITICALLY CORRECT enough. In other words, the search for the center of the universe just might lead us back to the earth, and hell why not the Vatican? In 1992 the Church exhonorated Galileo Galilee and then announced that IT considered TBBT as the model of the universe IT held sacred. Which only means that after 400 years, Galileo will finally get to put old Saint Pete and the Pearly gates behind him! Halle frickin luliah! Its like a trade off, Galileo gets to go to heaven, and we get a flat earth. Now put that in your peace pipe and smoke it! Magic is okay sparky, as long as that is what it is! When its performed by people who are more special than you, it turns into power--their power, not yours. NOT OURS!

Ultimately and furthermore, TBBT, as Lerner rightly suggests, would prove the possibility of spontaneous generation--life out of nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, there has always been life and there always will be.

The implications are that, human beings are as much a part of nature as oxygen, hydrogen and gold and that we have our place in the 'scheme' of things--as Buckminster Fuller said in the Playboy interview, "...our roll in the universe is to refine materials." Not bad Bucky! Could it be added that we refine abstract things like love? Therefore, lets get on with it, quit quibbling dudes, human beings just are! We always have been! ALWAYS Unk1961 (talk) 04:27, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

75.104.128.56 (talk) 04:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * According to Talk page guidelines: "The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." In this case, the statement "Prove it" near the top of this section is an example of discussing changes to the article, but arguing that the Big Bang is wrong is an example of a personal view. An ideal Wikipedian would write the Eric Lerner article the same way whether he believed the Big Bang or not, applying WP:Neutral point of view including WP:Undue weight. At least a partial answer to "Prove it" can be found at the "Open Letter", which agrees from a pro-plasma cosmology viewpoint: "An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences" and "Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies." Beyond that, I leave the question to scientists. But that's "the real question" for Wikipedia. If you would rather debate whether the Big Bang is right or wrong, there are sites like this one. Wikipedia is designed to reflect leading worldwide opinions, not just ours. Art LaPella (talk) 05:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for setting me straight! My views on the subject of the TBBT are not relevant to the matter of E J Lerner's credentials or if there are merits especially to his work titled "The Big Bang Never Happened." The problem seems to be that the geocentric universe of the dark ages was a philosophical misconception that was set up to correspond with cursory observation, that being that simple observations would suggest to a person standing on the surface of the earth, that the world is flat and that the heavens circle us. Likewise, TBBT is a logical response what initially appears to observers as an expanding universe. The problem as Lerner points out, is that using the observed red shift for measuring distance and escape velocity (my own take on his work) when in fact two neighboring galaxies on the fringes of the observed universe are not moving towards or away from one another than is the Milky Way from Andromeda. He states that the normal velocity of a galaxy is about 1500 km/sec throughout the universe. Meaning of course that if we were at the center of the universe it would have taken 150 billion years for a galaxy on these fringes to get to that point at the rate of 1500 km/sec. If some mechanism recently slowed the velocity of these galaxies, down to their current levels it would have created detectable resistance which as I understand cannot be accounted for.

The relevance of this to the subject at hand is that E J Lerner has presented a case that is not popular with people who make their living off said philosophical misconception. And my point is that history is shaped by the deliberate obscurantism of observable fact. Obscurantism can take the form of personal attack!

I don't think that it could have escaped astronomers attentions that the sun occluded certain stars at certain times of the year, which would suggest that the view of the heavens were obscured by the sun's glare. For example, an astute observer could determine that a star close to the full moon would be close to the sun in half a year. The Greeks produced elaborate star maps, and tracked the annual motions of the sun and moon and planets as best they could--and knew the length of the solar year "duh". My "belief" is that there is no way they could not have suspected a heliocentric truth. They might have propagated something else, or they might have argued the case amongst themselves. The implications have not changed. The implications are that there could be life on other star systems, and that we might be visited from time to time by extra-terrestrials, or that we might even physically-genetically descend from the same. That is what I believe we are really arguing about!

In other words, the geocentric philosophy is inorganic, and the plasma philosophy is not. E J Lerner's credentials are not that important to me. Wilhelm Herschel, the discoverer of the planet we call Uranus was an amateur astronomer, who innocently built the best telescopes in the world for his time. 13.7 billion years is a drop in the infinite time-bucket. Unk1961 (talk) 14:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

--also, Thanks for the list of Lerner's credentials Unk1961 (talk) 14:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Over the years I've seen "deliberate obscurantism" from both sides - although I never know how much of it is justifiable as the only way to resist the other guys. On Wikipedia, I hope "what...we are really arguing about" is how to write the Eric Lerner article. Are you suggesting a specific change? Art LaPella (talk) 18:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

To some it might appear shocking that anyone could possibly dispute the Big Bang Theory; however, the book itself is really not too bad--from a layman's perspective, at least! It introduces the basic tenets of TBBT--its history and picks apart a number of flaws in it which the average high school or even middle school student should become familiar with. The problem with knocking Lerner as Stenger does below is that a person unfamiliar with the complexities carefully delineated in the book--could very easily be misled into thinking Lerner is an idiot simply for disputing TBBT.

"Victor J. Stenger, Univ. of Hawaii Professor Emeritus of Physics and Astronomy, criticized Lerner's book in a 1992 edition of the popular magazine, Skeptical Inquirer. He stated that, "The big bang may be wrong, but Lerner can't seriously expect to prove it in a popular book." He also wrote:

Lerner uses the kinds of arguments one often hears in public discourse on science, but rarely among professional scientists themselves. For example, he argues that plasma cosmology is in closer agreement with everyday observation than Big Bang cosmology, and hence is the more sensible. A look through a telescope reveals spirals and other structures similar to those observed in the plasma laboratory, and as cosmologist Rocky Kolb has remarked, in your bathroom toilet as well. Following Lerner's line of reasoning, we would conclude, as people once did, that the earth is flat, that the sun goes around the earth, and that species are immutable."[31] "

Stenger's comments above are simply misleading and disrespectful. At great length, Lerner discusses the scientific developments and discoveries that lead to the logical downfall of the theory, and reads nothing like Stenger describes. Stenger probably did not read the book, although people who are busy with their own thing might arguably not have time for nonsense--or what they think is nonsense.

So while it is true that Lerner is largely judged by his book "The Big Bang Never Happened" a proper review of the book discussing the tenets of TBBT and a number of its implications is hindered here by such a scathing review. I find both Stenger’s arguments, first the comment about toilet bowls and worse -- the comment about the flat earth and immutable species most troublesome. However, since he brings it up, what is wrong with the possibility that for instance, human beings are a phenomenon of nature?--no different in that respect from gold or silver? There is nothing wrong with it except that the scientific evidence is lacking? Oh well, then how can a bunch of scientists with evidence staring them straight in the face, reject the evidence outright? Easy, just sit back and make fun of somebody’s nose--point at his or her lack of credentials--mention a toilet!

Unk1961 (talk) 15:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I've always thought the Stenger quote was antagonistic and simplistic, and I voted to have it removed at one point, but ScienceApologist had a thing for it, and I got tired of debating it, so I tried to balance it by adding the first part of the quote. I'm still in favor of removing it since it offers no useful or accurate representation of the book, and Stenger's standing in the scientific community is not as great as those quoted earlier, but his quote is longer. Doesn't make sense to me. ABlake (talk) 01:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Stenger is known for his pseudoscience debunking and definitely deserves mention here. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not questioning his qualifications or reputation or anything else. Balance is what I'm after. His quote is too long comparatively, regardless of my opinion of what he said. I think his first line is sufficient, accurate, balanced, and NPOV by itself. ABlake (talk) 19:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Since Lerner is basically derided, I don't see where a "balance" argument comes into play. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I get the feeling you're not even reading my post completely before responding... ABlake (talk) 13:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Well then, what is wrong with picking apart what is said in the precious Stenger quote? He seems to equate anyone considering the idea of an eternal universe as harboring such silly notions as a flat earth or immutable species? The implication therefore is that since Stenger must believe in TBBT and that all educated and intelligent people know that the universe had to have begun in a singular event, if you just look at all the evidence, he doesn't want to even read such rubbish because, well, Lerner must believe in a flat earth and so on. But lets look at how the theory of evolution (TTOE) fits in with TBBT. At some point in recent history it was determined that modern humans like ourselves evolved from lower forms of human beings. The time-line for this is now set firmly in stone--it had to be from 50,000 years ago to 135,000 years ago. So TBBT helps us draw the rest of the time-line: At first the universe was nothing more than a tiny ball of energy no larger than the head of a pin--or maybe a marble--you know like the ones little boys and girls play with in the sand box. It all depends on whether the universe started 7 billion years ago or 20 billion years ago. Anyway, all of a sudden the tiny ball of energy exploded and in the fist few nanoseconds we know this that and the other thing had to have happened mostly because the universe is so clumpy! Finally after billions of years the first chemical reactions took place that accounted for the miracle of life and evolution began. See how simple and obvious and beautiful it all is? If you are really smart it even helps explain why the water in your toilet bowl goes around the way it does!

Another reasonable argument has nothing to do with immutable species, but allows instead the likelihood that evolution takes place within a species--or even within the individual! Once again, humanity (lets hope that is a positive thing) is perhaps a phenomenon of the universe.

Besides, scienceapologist, the universe is not completely physical. Where in TBBT is there room for emotional factors and where is the imagination located? Even worse, I don't see any reason to apolgize for science--certainly not in your case anyway--maybe science should apologize for you! --Oh evolve!

The big problem with your pejorative quote is that TBBT has thrown a wrench into the education system by virtue of the fact that it has suddenly been taken as gospel truth. What many people on the outskirts of the argument here do not realize is how closely TBBT and TTOE are linked. So when we read about disputes between public schools and church groups we side with one group who knows that the earth started about 6000 years ago or another who know it started 13.4 Billion years ago. What those on the fringes do not know is that church goers are familiar with scads of scientific evidence that contradicts what is taught in schools from kindergarten through medical school. They are equally unaware that the basic tenets of TBBT theory and TTOE are hotly debated in scientific circles. Rather than include us in the debate to the degree that we look at the evidence and understand the simple arguments we are left with something like "tastes great and less filling." Balance scienceapologist's comments with something more enlightening about the book in question. I really like it! Unk1961 (talk) 06:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

This discussion was from 2005-2006
-- Deleted it, it's completely unncessary in a discussion of his credentials (as the article now stands).


 * No actually its a perfectly necessary and relevant little tidbit when talking about Lerner.--Deglr6328 21:42, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * gee, I thought there was some rule on wiki about personal attacks, but I gues thsi does not qualify, huh?Elerner 03:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree - I used Remove personal attacks. Art LaPella 21:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. While it is true that in the previous (now removed) comment by me I did in fact refer to Eric Lerner, the subject of this page as "a fucking nutter", my comment expressed my opinion about this page's subject and NOT another editor on wikipedia. In fact Eric Lerner's first edit to wikipedia under the name Elerner would not occur until 4 days after I made the comment and therefore my comment did not in fact constitute a personal attack on another editor since he was not even present or editing Wikipedia at the time. I am fully aware of the personal attack rule on wiki and would not have made the comment if he had been present at the time of my post. --Deglr6328 01:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you think it would be ok to say on a talk page of an article about a living person that they are suspected of being involved in JFK's assasination? The talkpages are published and one should be careful with accusations, libel, and generally poisoning the atmosphere. Not to mention the idea that the subject of a biography can be expected to show up sooner or later. Civility is not about talking behind people's back then saying "sorry I didn't know you were listening". WAS 4.250 01:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, in fact I do think it would be perfectly ok since talk pages are for expressing uncensored thoughts concerning the subject at hand and are not meant to be part of the actual article for precisely that reason. It also seems worth mentioning that the edit in question above was also made a month before the policy regarding "biographies of living persons" was instituted (apparently by yourself) which advocates removal of "unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons" from both the actual article AND the talk page (that last part being an absurdly draconian and unenforceable policy in my view). Anyway, I'll thank you for not putting words in my mouth, who said I was sorry? The only reason I would not have used the terms I did on the 5th of Nov. '05 if I knew Lerner were present would be to NOT violate the no personal attack rule. Whatever, in any case I have no plans of continuing to edit this page anymore, there are plenty of other people watching it now who will prevent the usual whitewashing by Lerner et al. --Deglr6328 02:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No actually its a unnecessary and irrelevant little tidbit ... except to express a stance of hostility and intolerance ... and your comments "total f***ing nutter" exposes your POV (something that I hope you don't edit into articles). Sincerely, JDR 19:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I think Lerner doesn't do himself any favors in the way he goes about things but I don't think he's a total nutter. His fusion technology is unproven, I know nothing about plasma so I'm not going to jump to conclusions (and that would be nonNPOV) so let's see what happens with that. Anyway you're probably calling him a nutter because of his BigBang views. I've noticed some people get very heated when the BigBang is questioned. I personally know cosmologists and they are quite open to discuss alternative models, so why Wikipedians and Slashdotters get so worked up is a mystery to me. Trious 00:29, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Most scientists are quite open ... it's the "fundementalist" that you have to worry about. Sincerely, JDR


 * Well, the hydrogen+boron combination is certainly a genuine fusion reaction, so in that respect Lerner is not a "total ****ing nutter". Neither is the 1 billion+ degree temperature achieved using DPF a mirage. As for his ideas about field confinement, well we will have to leave that to the plasma physicists to sort out. Suffice to say I am not about to condemn a bloke who is trying to bring about cheap, plentiful and environmentally-friendly energy for all.User: Anonym

http://photoman.bizland.com/lpp/eric_j_lerner.htm

President, Lawrenceville Plasma Physics,Inc. advanced technology research, consulting and communications firm.

Scientific research in plasma physics and desalination

Development of fusion energy and x-ray sources based on the dense plasma focus Originated plasma-based theories of quasars, large-scale structure and other phenomena of the Universe Author of "The Big Bang Never Happened" Development of Atomizing Desalination Process Writing and editing on high technology

Over 600 articles published RESEARCH

1995-Present

Designed experiment to test hypothesis that Dense Plasma Focus could achieve temperatures needed for proton-boron fusion. Developed theoretical model, designed electrodes, designed diagnostic equipment, including x-ray detector and filters, Rogowski coil. Actively participated in experiment including selection of experimental parameters, construction of heating apparatus for decaborane functioning. Analyzed resulting data. Demonstrated achievement of 200keV energies. Developed theory of magnetic effects that show feasibility of proton-boron fusion. Work to develop intense x-ray source for infrastructure inspection. Continued development of plasma cosmology theories.

1992-1995

Designed experiment to test theory of heating in DPF. Designed electrodes, experimental plan, participated in carrying out experiment, analyzed data.

1986- 1991

Developed an original theory of quasars based on extrapolation from laboratory-scale plasma instabilities in the dense plasma focus. Developed detailed theory of function of DPF. Proposed a theory of the origin of the large scale structure of the universe, also from plasma instability theory and the role of force free fila­ments. This theory led to the prediction of supercluster complexes, shortly before their discovery by R. Brent Tully. Developed an original theory of the microwave background and the origin of light elements, accounting for both without need for a Big Bang. The microwave theory led to the prediction that there is absorp­tion of RF radia­tion by the intergalactic medium, a prediction confirmed by observation in 1990.

BOOK

The Big Bang Never Happened, Random House/Times Books, 1991.

ORIGINAL SCIENTIFIC PAPERS

Two World Systems Revisited: A Comparison of Plasma Cosmology and the Big Bang(to be published in IEEE Trans. On Plasma Sci.)

Prospects for p11B fusion with the Dense Plasma Focus : New Results (To be published in the Proceedings of the Fifth Symposium on Current Trends in International Fusion Research), 2002

Lerner, E.J., Peratt, A.L., Final Report, Jet Propulsion Laboratory contract 959962, 1995 (1995). "Intergalactic Radio Absorption and the COBE Data", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol.227, May, 1995, p.61-81 "On the Problem of Big Bang Nucleosynthesis", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol.227, May, 1995 p.145-149 "The Case Against the Big Bang" in Progress in New Cosmologies, Halton C. Arp et al, eds., Plenum Press (New York), 1993

"Confirmation of Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium", Astrophysics and Space Science, Vol 207,1993 p.17-26.

"Force-Free Magnetic Filaments and the Cosmic Background Radiation", IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Vol.20, no. 6,     Dec. 1992, pp. 935-938.

"Radio Absorption by the Intergalactic Medium," The Astro­physical Journal, Vol. 361, Sept. 20, 1990, pp. 63-68.

"Prediction of the Submillimeter Spectrum of the Cosmic Back­ground Radiation by a Plasma Model," IEEE Trans­actions on Plasma Science, Vol. 18, No. 1, Feb. 1990, pp. 43-48. "Galactic Model of Element Formation," IEEE Transac­tions on Plasma Science, Vol. 17, No. 3, April 1989, pp. 259-263. "Plasma Model of the Microwave Background," Laser and Particle Beams, Vol. 6, (1988), pp. 456-469.

"Magnetic Vortex Filaments, Universal Invariants and the Fundamental Constants," IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, Special Issue on Cosmic Plasma, Vol. PS-14, No. 6, Dec. 1986, pp. 690-702.

"Magnetic Self-Compression in Laboratory Plasma, Quasars and Radio Galaxies," Laser and Particle Beams, Vol. 4, Pt. 2, (1986), pp. 193-222.

PATENT

Atomizing Desalination Process (US. Pat 5,207,928)

AWARDS

Aviation Space Writers Association 1993 Award of Excellence in Journalism: Trade Magazines/Space for "GOES NEXT Goes Astray" Aerospace America, May 1992.

Society for Technical Communication 1992 Award   of  Distinction:      "Technology is Teaming", Bellcore Insight, Summer, 1991.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1990 Award of Excellence in Journalism: Special Interest/Trade Magazine Category for "Lessons of Flight 665," Aero­space America, April, 1989.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1990 Journalism Award, North East Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "Galileo's Tortuous Journey to Jupiter," Aerospace America, August, 1989.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1988 National Journalism Award: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "FAA:  An Agency Besieged", Aerospace America, February-April, 1987.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1985 Journalism Award, North East Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "SDI Series", Aerospace America, August-November, 1985.

Aviation Space Writers Association 1984 Journalism Award Northeast Region: Special Interest/Space Magazine Category for "Mushrooming Vulnerability to EMP",  Aerospace America, August 1984.

PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES

IEEE, the American Physical Society and American Astronomical Society.

Basic biographical information
What academic degree does Lerner hold? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs has he held full-time academic employment? Where is he currently employed? --Art Carlson 20:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * What academic degree does Lerner hold? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs has he held full-time academic employment? ... Appeal to academia, tsk tsk .... to wit, I ask ... what academic degree before does Heaviside hold (before 1890s that is ...)? From what university? In what subject? At what universities or national labs had Heaviside held full-time academic employment? ... this is plainly an attempt to take a snipe at Lerner.
 * Where is he currently employed? Read the bio link ... appearantly you didn't ....
 * Sincerely, JDR 22:03, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Are you saying that he doesn't have any academic degree, from any university, and has never worked for any university? You seem to think that that is a point in his favor. Shouldn't we report that then? --Art Carlson 22:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think you miss the point ... not only those individuals who have engaged in scholarship are deemed to have anything worthwhile to say, or do.
 * He may have an academic degree, from a university, and may have worked for a university ... but IF he didn't, that doesn't mean his research is any less valuable.
 * Get a reference Art and then report it.
 * Sincerely, JDR 15:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Reddi added that he didn't get a degree, not having done the course work. That was completely unsourced, and its really not clear how it could be sourced (pers comm?). Please indicate source if you want it re-entered. Its not in his biog, that I can see. I added some stuff from his biog.

As for "leading" critic of the big bang... I doubt this. Certainly not supported by his publication record, which is slight. William M. Connolley 18:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC).

How much of this is real?
Lawrenceville Plasma Physics and Focus Fusion Society 11 Calvin Terrace West Orange, NJ 07052

is located in a residential district on the border of West Orange and Montclair, at the foot of Eagle Rock Reservation. Ten years ago, I walked all around that area. The adress is probably someone's residence. At best, an office. Do these companies exixt only on paper? With no actual current funding aren't they just venture-funding-bait? Shouldn't this article be deleted? Or at least remove what can't be verified as more than just what people are saying about themselves? The more I look into this, the more the whole thing looks fishy. WAS 4.250 19:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Sterling D. Allan appears to be promoting him. Google and see what I mean. Maybe this does deserve to be an article ... but a quite different one. WAS 4.250 19:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

As near as I can tell everything personal we have is what he, his "companies", and Allan say about him and his "companies". How much is verifyable? Are these considered useable sources? If so why? WAS 4.250 20:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

My, I do seem to get some people upset. Art Carslon, in particular, seems to have nothing better to do with his time than follow me from Wiki page to Wiki page--see "aneutronic fusion" and "plasma cosmology" and I am sure there must be others. I seem to be an obsession of his. Hate to toot my own horn, but I do need to correct those who say no one takes my work seriously. Generally, invitations to present your work at prestigious institutions, getting it reported in the scientific press, etc. is considered evidence that the work is taken seriously. (not of course that it is correct.)Elerner 03:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Stop editing your own page using IP sock puppets.--Deglr6328 05:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What an ego! I'm a professional plasma physicist who worked for many years in fusion and now works in cosmology. Where should I feel more at home than editing these articles, as I have been doing long before Eric Lerner showed up? Who's following whom around? --Art Carlson 08:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we need to continue with Requests for comment/Elerner. Include the new problems and make the page active on the list of current User-RfCs. --ScienceApologist 16:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Deglr6328,
 * Changing Eric's status from "plasma physicist" and "plasma cosmologist" to "associated with plasma physics and plasma cosmology", is somewhat insulting. As a peer-reviewed author of nearly 50 articles, on subjects from cosmology to plasma phsysics, it is pretty clear, and verifiable that he is more than "associated" with the subjects. Alfvén trained as an engineer, but won the Nobel Prize for (plasma) physics... I guess he was just associated with plasma physic too?
 * And as for designating his theories as "pseudoscience", I'm sure you'll have no problems finding a verifiable peer-reviewed citation... that's one of the factors that distinguishes science from pseudoscience --Iantresman 20:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not terribly concerned with how "insulting" it may seem not to refer to him directly as a physicist. The terms physicist and scientist are used most aptly (and frequently) by people to describe themselves when they actually have a PhD. i don't quite know what you're rambling on about with regard to pseudoscience and citations either. Lerner's plasma cosmology/anti-big bang/focus fusion theories are widely regarded as pseudoscientific. end of story. there is no real debate among scientists regarding those subjects.--Deglr6328 20:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Since when is a Ph.D a requirement for scientist status? This is elitist garbage. The Wiki article on "Scientist" doesn't mention Ph.D. once.
 * If there is no debate regarding Lerner's work as pseudoscience, then you'll have no problems finding a verifiable peer-reviewed citation. Otherwise it is hearsay. --Iantresman 23:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Like I said, I'm not wasting my time with you debating whether or not plasma cosmology and wacky big bang denialism constitute pseudoscience.--Deglr6328 05:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not asking you to debate it, as I am sure neither one of us cares what the other one has to say. I'm asking you to substantiate YOUR statement that Lerner's material is pseudoscience, which should be easy to provide a verifiable citation if you are right.
 * Deglr6328, there is no doubt that Lerner's theories are not accepted by the vast majority of scientists. I doubt whether the vast majority of scientists have even read it. Of those scientists that have read it, very few (if any) have submitted their criticisms to peer-review. None of this implies that Lerner's work is pseudoscience. Just like the Big Bang, Lerner's work may turn out to be wrong. Again, this means that the scientific method has done its job, but it does not imply pseudoscience. --Iantresman 09:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * How difficult is this for you to understand? incredibly, apparently. The sentance "Lerner's theories are mostly regarded as pseudoscience by the mainstream physics community." does NOT state "lerner's theories are pseudoscience" it DOES state that the vast majority of scientists think this is the case however. There is a difference and the completely factual note will stay. --Deglr6328 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Forgot to sign in, sorry--I made the last edit to the page.

Deglr, whoever you are, it is purely your personal, unsourced, opinion that "Lerner's theories are mostly regarded as pseudoscience by the mainstream physics community." It is that opinion of your that keeps getting deleted, as do the phrases and words that imply that various criticisms are fact. Just curious, but if what you said was true, how do you think I would get my stuff published in peer-reviewed journals, get invited to give presentations at various conferences and research instituions and get funded by various governments?Elerner 02:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The sentance refers to your preoccupation with theories such as plasma coslmology and anti-big bang fringe theories. It is not my opinion alone that these theories are pseudoscientific. That is a widely held belief among scientists and it is a statement which needs to be in the article. --Deglr6328 07:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Let me remind you that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". So in talking about what should be in the article we should focus on what we can verify through reliable sources.  But that aside, I honestly don't believe you.  I agree that the mainstream community, largely, rejects Lerner's theory, and that some have criticized points in it.  Generally speaking, scientists have not built on his work.  However, the term "pseudoscience" is a lot more critical of the work than this.  A real example of pseudoscience is creation science: that is, pretending that creationism is based on science rather than religion.  For instance, I don't think Edward Wright thinks Lerner's work is pseudoscience (that is, that it's a disingenuous attempt at science), rather, he just thinks it's wrong.  From Wright's tone, I get the feeling he thinks Lerner isn't a very good scientist and that his theories aren't good science, but "pseudoscience" goes a lot farther than that.  And in any case, he's just one guy.  Mango juice talk 13:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I should probably steer clear of this subject, but .... I tend to agree with Mango. I think it is important to characterize the degree of Lerner's acceptance in the scientific community, but that is very hard to do in an objective way. I also think the term "pseudoscience" is so vague as to be practically useless and also practically impossible to define objectively. I'm not sure there is a clear difference between bad science and pseudoscience, but if forced to choose, I would call Lerner's work simply bad science. Can't we quote a few judgements from prominent (mainstream) scientists and leave it at that? --Art Carlson 14:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As I suggested before, however we characterise Lerner's work, (a) it should be verifiable (b) attributable (c) should not infer this is the voice of "the scientific community".
 * I can find published and peer reviewed criticism of, for example, the Big Bang without any problems. So if "the scientific community" are equally critical of Lerner's work, it shouldn't be too difficult to find peer reviewed criticism. --Iantresman 14:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Unsubstantiated/controversial comments require citations. If you can find reliable citable/notable sources that have been published saying "We think Lerner's work is pseudoscience, and we represent the whole or most of the science community" that is perfectly fine for inclusion. But an unsubstantiated claim that "XXYY believes LErner is engaging in pseudoscience" is hearsay sicne it's NOT backed up by anything but someone's opinion. I suggest that someone tag the statement, if it's recurrent, with the 'Fact' tag. If citatations aren't provided, revert it out, or otherwise remove it. Problem solved, yeah? This is how Wikipedia is SUPPOSED to operate. To some degree, controversial statements are subject to the "verify or die" clause. If it's NOT notable and it IS controversial, it shouldn't be included. As I've been foirced to improve my works lately, so should anyone else making unverified claims. Best way to do that is with 'fact' tags or some other way of marking it up and then either adding notable sources to back it or deleting it. See, "I learns gud!" (/end self-deprecating humor) Mgmirkin 00:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the template at the top of this page to "Biographies of living persons" which is a Wikipedia policy page, which reminds us that "Editors should remove any unsourced or poorly sourced negative material from biographies of living persons and their talk pages, and may do so without discussion; .. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit in question" --Iantresman 17:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist, I've never seen such bias in my life, your edits disgust me, and you have sunk to a new low. How can you remove verifiable quotes to publications such as the Chicago Tribune, while retaining criticism such as Wright's that has never appeared any publication whatsoever, and then have the audacity to remove the link to Lerner's own rebuttal. DIGUSTING. --Iantresman 18:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Chicago Tribune? What gives the Chicago tribune any weight in evaluating what anyone says about cosmology? Ned Wright is a respected astronomer whose website stands along with Gene Smith's as one of the most trusted and oldest web-based sources of cosmology information available. Just because something appears in print doesn't make it better. Evaulating sources themselves is important. Ned Wright is a notable figure in astronomy and cosmology. The Chicago Tribune is not. Rebuttals don't belong in a criticism section. If Lerner can stand up for himself, then report on it in the section that describes Lerner's work. --ScienceApologist 18:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * HYPOCRITIC. That's rich coming from someone using a creationist Web sites as source. And when will you learn the definition of POV pushing. Presenting points of view neutrally is not POV pushing.  --Iantresman 18:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * For that matter what give YOU any authority in evaluting (a) anything on cosmologu (b) anything that the Chicago Tribune has to say. YOU are unverifiable. The Chicago Tribune stands on its reputation, and is verifiable. --Iantresman 18:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Careful, Ian. You're bordering on personal attacks. Take a breather. We're all editors here trying our best to make editorial decisions. --ScienceApologist 18:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Then learn the definition of POV pushing; removing ALL the positive criticism while leaving just the negative criticism is POV pushing, not providing a BALANCE of VERIFIABLE views. --Iantresman 19:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I have restored ScienceApologist's HYPOCRTICAL removal of the link to Lerner's reply to Wright. If Wright's Web page is a good enough source (despite it not being peer reviewed) then so is Lerner's reply, and your one-sided editing still DISGUSTS me. --Iantresman 19:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I consider what you are doing to be POV pushing which "refers to the act (or attempt or intent) to evade, circumvent and undermine Wikipedia's neutrality policy". --ScienceApologist 19:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Lerner's response is included with the Wright criticism. --ScienceApologist 19:14, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hypocritic! Demoting Lerner's repsonse to the small print in a footnote is not EQUALITY. Your bias is unbelievable. --Iantresman 19:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the Chicago Tribune quote, they're more notable and veriable than ScienceApologist. --Iantresman 19:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've restored Lerner's status a plasma cosmologist, not "an advocate of plasma cosmology". You might as well have made him "an advocate of plasma physics". --Iantresman 19:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * We've had this argument before Ian. Plasma cosmologist is a neologism. Period. --ScienceApologist 20:12, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I restored the comment on Stenger's critism to put it into context. It is all verifiable, and you can provide any example to show that it is incorrect. But to give the impression that Stenger's critism's are conclusive is BIAS in the extreme --Iantresman 19:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I can understand Lerner not wanting his theories to be labeled as pseudoscience (obviously) and the concern Mango and Art voice about the word pseudoscience perhaps being too harsh is valid. However, its alternatives, which are equally true, that is that his theories are simply bad/wrong/crazy are even more intrinsically biased and thus I did not use those. I feel what is hampering progress here is Ian's insistance on using peer-reviewed statements to corroborate the statement here that Lerner's theories are considered wrong/bad/pseudoscience. This is an absurd and disingenuous requirement because Ian knows damn well that no one will ever find such peer reviewed statements. Is this because scientists have no disagreement with Lerner's theories as Ian apparently presupposes must be the case? No. In fact it is the exact opposite which is true. Lerner's theories are considered so nutty and out of the mainstream that no legit scientist will waste his time refuting such blatantly obvious nonsense and submitting it for a peer-review. One quick look at his citation record shows that his papers are barely ever cited by others and when they are the majority of the time they are SELF-citations! The fact that mainstream scientists overwhlemingly believe Lerner's theories to be utterly worthless is not going to be found in any peer reviewed paper but can be found in several (some of which are already noted here) other non-peer reviewed verifiable statements. The reader of this article NEEDS to know how far out and disreputable Lerner's theories really are (widely) considered to be. --Deglr6328 19:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, and people need to be able to VERIFY what you suggest. From what I recall, one of the criticisms of pseudoscience is that results are not submitted to peer review. Lerner's done that, showing it is of sufficient standard to publish.
 * I also recall that HUNDREDS of scientists and engineers are critical of the Big Bang, (that's VERIFIABLE in a reputable publication), so presumably you'd insist that readers should know?
 * I also checked your statement that "no legit scientist will waste his time refuting such blatantly obvious nonsense" which just goes to show that either you are wrong or Ned Wright is not legit? --Iantresman 20:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice try but I'm not getting dragged into that side debate with you. I know, I know, I need to EXPLICITLY spell things out for you lest you take and twist them around to some NEW absurdity; so the sentance should read, "what scientist would want to waste his time refuting such nonsense and taking the time and effort to submit it for peer review". The fact that you even think peer review would ever be used in such a way seems to betray a deep misunderstanding of how the process actually works. Most of the time, obviously wrong papers rife with bad science written by nobodies in a disreputable field are simply ignored. As such they probably should be.--Deglr6328 20:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't submit to peer review, it's pseudoscience. If you do, and it gets in, we won't bother to reply. And that's the scientific method? --Iantresman 20:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I see that ScienceApologist has now resorted to providing critical quotes from personal Blogs. Is that better than quoting from book reviews on Creationist Web sites?
 * I am surprised that Lerner manages to get ANY work at all, and gets past so many peers with his articles. --Iantresman 20:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That blog is written by an accredited physicist. That his ideas are expressed in blog venue is irrelevant.--Deglr6328 20:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * ScienceApologist remove one of my citations just two days ago because it was not peer reviewed despite being written by accredited scientists, and has reminded me that as far as he is concerned, "Peer review != notability". But blogs are fine! Looks liked there is one standard for you guys, and another standard for the rest of us. --Iantresman 21:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Lerner doesn't get much academic work. He spends a lot of his time self-aggrandizing and trying to drum up private donations. His anti-establishment message does gain some traction with a certain set of idealogues, but you won't find him doing controversial things where it will get him into trouble. He won't, for example, present his plasma cosmology ideas at AAS nor does he try to drum up support for his fusion flights-of-fancy at IEEE meetings. That's just sort of his way, you see. --ScienceApologist 20:32, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Really?  --Iantresman 21:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 1991 and 1992? Really au courant of you, Ian. --ScienceApologist 21:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Joshua--you're back from vacation! Or is this just another assignment from your graduate advisor? You evidently don't read the page you are editing, which contains my conferences in the past five years: the IEEE International Conference on Plasma Science, 2002: the American Physical Society, 2003 and the XI Latin American Workshop on Plasma Physics, 2005. Lerner was an invited speaker at both the Fifth (2003) and Sixth (2005) Symposia on Current Trends in International Fusion Research, which is sponsored by the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). And of course there are my seminars on plasma cosmology during that same period at University of Pavia, Goddard Space Flight Center and European Southern Observatory. Also, I notice you are diligently gathering critiques of my book from scientists in the field. But on the plasma cosmology page, you insist that my work is ignored by scientists in the field. Which is it? Or does the truth not matter that much?Elerner 23:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've put in a request for Page Protection. And would suggest no further editing until we talk through our differences. --Iantresman 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And I will be away until Monday. --Iantresman 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Mangojuice mediation?
Mangojuice, I wonder whether you'd help us mediate this article. Unfortunately I'm away until Monday, but I'm sure Eric can hold his own until then. I would like to see some kind advice on what is considered a suitable source, peer reivew, newspapers, magazines, blogs? And advice on how to word certain phrases neutrally. --Iantresman 00:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's see, Joshua (science apologist) sees fit to remove nearly all the favorable comments on my book, even those from James van Allen, who might perhaps be considered an expert. Very neutral!Elerner 01:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Joshua is still reverting without justification. He is also is eliminating the fact that I was a visiting astronomer at ESO--this really seems to need censoring, huh, Joshua? Do you really think I would have been there without getting invited by the invitation committee? Why don't you do some actual work rather than trying to cover up mine? Oh right, I forgot, this is your class assignment.Elerner 03:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm back from my short trip away, and would like to resolve the following issues: --Iantresman 10:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Lerner's status as a plasma physicist and plasma cosmologist
 * 2) Lerner was a "visiting astronomer", or was just "invited" to the European Southern Observatory in Chile
 * 3) Selection of critical reviews: what sources are suitable? Chicago Tribune? Personal blogs?
 * 4) Selection of critical quotes: positive and negative?
 * 5) Comments on critical quotes?
 * 6) The view on Lerner's work? Pseudoscience? Wholly rejected? By whom? Verifiability?
 * 7) Removal of Lerner's awards and article contributions,
 * 8) Use of general critical statements,
 * 9) Moving of Lerner's reply to Wright, to footnotes.


 * You know, I think something that might help here is if we could get away from the current style of presenting quotes on BBNH. It's not informative, and it will never present the reception of the book in an appropriate light.   On the quotes themselves, I think we can draw the conclusion that there was significant criticism of the book and its theories.  I think we can draw the conclusion that the book was well-received by the lay community (cf the Chicago Tribune and the Sapp quote).  I believe it's fair to state that Lerner has attempted to respond to any detailed criticism.  Beyond that, I don't think there's much we can say.  Mango juice talk 14:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * (I numbered the points for ease of reference.) One approach is to identify quotes from sources that are considered useable as sources at wikipedia for the issues you just raised. Once it is agreed what the basis for the article is, the rest falls into place so much easier. Perhaps we could take point number one above, and work on it as a test case. Whatever works well for point number one can then be repeated for the following points. WAS 4.250 15:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. The only reliable source is a verifiable, reliable citation. I've already noted that:
 * Lerner is described as a "plasma physicist" by Amazon Editorial Reviews, twice,
 * He is described as a "plasma cosmologist" (A) by H. Ratcliffe, in "The First Crisis in Cosmology Conference"PDF, (B) In a Randall Meyers film, (C) In a book by Rem B. Edwards, "What Caused the Big Bang?"
 * But I think this boils down to, what constiutes a verifiable, reliable source? --Iantresman 16:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Can I just point out that those two don't contradict each other? Surely, a "plasma cosmologist" is a subtype of "plasma physicist".  Mango juice talk 16:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, though "cosmologist" also denotes something to do with astronomy which "physicist" does not necessarily? --Iantresman 13:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it makes sense to write this main article for average readers and put all the hair-splitting details in footnotes. For example, if I could edit the article, the first footnote would now read:

Lerner is described as a "plasma physicist" by Amazon Editorial Reviews, twice, He is described as a "plasma cosmologist" by H. Ratcliffe, in "The First Crisis in Cosmology Conference"PDF, in a Randall Meyers film, and in a book by Rem B. Edwards, "What Caused the Big Bang?"

And other editors could add sourced meaningful hair splitting to the footnote. Sources descibing him as a poor physicist or his theories as psuedoscience need to be in the article and not just footnotes, but being a poor fisherman or whatever doesn't mean you are not one. WAS 4.250 16:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Isn't this how the article is written now? It begins "Eric J. Lerner is a plasma physicist" and there is a footnote with more information.
 * Are there any sources describing Lerner as a "poor physicist", and if so, do we base this on the sole judgement of an author?
 * Are there any source describing any of Lerner's work as psuedoscience? --Iantresman 13:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

IBM says "Eric Lerner is a freelance science writer based in Lawrenceville, New Jersey." WAS 4.250 18:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, he does appear to have many strings to his bow.

--Iantresman 18:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. Let us be positive about the "many strings to his bow". The reader can draw their own conclusions when faced with his actual contributions and the response (or lack there-of). It is Wikipedia policy that we do not "spoon-feed" the reader. WAS 4.250 22:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * So are you suggesting that we do, or do not describe Lerner as a (a) plasma physicist (b) plasma cosmologist (c) science writer, and what do you base your answer on? --Iantresman 23:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest only that we present the evidence and let the reader decide. My preference is to give the readers quotes and sources but most wikipedians feel we must summarize the quotes. Screw the majority. WAS 4.250 01:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the Amazon Editorial Reviews are necessarily the authorities on who is or is not a plasma physicist. I note that most American plasma physicists are members of the Division of Plasma Physics of the American Physical Society, whereas Eric Lerner is not even a member of the APS. Should we conclude that "physicist" is not an accurate description? I don't know, but you are going to have difficulties solving this one in a verifiable way. --Art Carlson 11:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This whole dispute seems really silly to me. If this were Albert Einstein, we could argue about whether to call Einstein a "scientist" or a "physicist", and we'd be able to pull up sources supporting either one, but in the end, both choices are perfectly okay.  I say we stick with the first sentence we have.  WP:NPOV does say "Let the facts speak for themselves" but this can't apply to the label we put on Lerner.  Mango juice talk 13:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree that the dispute is actually quite juvenile. I don't think there is any "official" confirmation of whether someone is a physicist or not, and formal education does not necessarily confer scientific status. What we do know, is that Lerner is President of a company that does research into plasma physics, and he has also published papers on plasma cosmology in the peer reviewed journal Transactions on Plasma Science.
 * I don't know any other person on Wikipedia whose status is questioned in this way. But as far as I'm converned, if he's a in a job that pays him to do physics, then he's a physicist, and if he's published in peer reviewed journals on plasma cosmologist, then he's a plasma cosmologist. His qualifications are a separate issue. --Iantresman 16:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

WAS 4.250, can you point me to the policy page regarding not "spoon feeding" the reader, it sounds like a useful guides that I've missed. --Iantresman 17:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I looked for that too. What I found was Neutral point of view... but that really doesn't mean what WAS said it means.  On the contrary, WP:1SP advocates "summary style" or "newspaper style" both of which sum up details for the reader's convenience.  Mango juice talk 18:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

See User:Kizzle/Spoon Feeding for what spoon feeding is and [] for what happened to that version and Neutral point of view for the policy concerning it. When I said "It is Wikipedia policy that we do not "spoon-feed" the reader." I was refering to Neutral point of view. It is standard to (as you say) use "summary style" or "newspaper style" both of which sum up details for the reader's convenience. But sometimes what is a proper summary is disputed. In those cases sometimes it helps to just present the evidence and let the reader make their own conclusion. Where there is no dispute, summarizing is good. WAS 4.250 18:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting. What you're saying is quite appropriate for the whole "pseudoscience" discussion, but really quite impossible for the label (plasma physicist vs. plasma cosmologist) issue.  In the lead, you simply have to sum things up; you need to give the context quickly and simply first before getting into it.  BTW, Lerner is a member of the APS according to his resume .  Mango juice talk 18:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Which is why I suggested puting "all the hair-splitting details in footnotes". Someone reads he is a plasma physicist and if they think "says who" they can go to the footnote where all the sources and details that are relevant to making that judgement call are. It's not clear to me that I'm disagreeing with anyone. WAS 4.250 19:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that is what we have now. There is more than enough evidence to support that he is a plasma physicst, with footnotes perhaps to APS membership, works in plasma physics, publishes in plasma physics journals.
 * Whether he is an "advocate of plasma cosmology" or a "plasma cosmologist", I can see no difference. --Iantresman 19:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Moving on
I suggest we move on to the real meat of the disagreement, which is how to cover the response to Lerner's work. I for one am very much against quoting many different sources as the article does now; it makes it unreadable, and we could go on forever finding more and more quotes and it would be very hard to ever agree we'd reached a fair representation of the spectrum of opinions. We should try to find some statements we agree are supported by the criticisms. Thoughts? Mango juice talk 19:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree about the quotes. Do we just says that "Lerner's book has received a number of mixed criticism [footnotes]", on the grounds that this is a biography, not a criticism of his theories? Certainly half a dozen critics does not reprsent the entire "mainstream community", nor do any of them suggest pseudoscience, and nor do they criticise ALL of his work --Iantresman 19:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we can read into it a little more carefully than that. The positive reviews tend to be from laypeople, or at best laud the attempt to consider alternate theories.  The negative reviews have a lot of specific scientific criticisms; most expert reviews are of this form.  Mango juice talk 20:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you sure?


 * I don't know the credentials of Gregg Sapp (Science Library Head), nor the author of the Chicago Tribune's piece. The citations to The Big Bang Never Happened are neutral, in that they are not critical.
 * So I don't think it is as clear-cut as suggested. I would guess that if you ask most mainstream astrophysicists about Lerner's book, they will not be too positive; I would also guess that most of them haven't read it. I would guess that if ask many of the plasma physicists, they will not be negative about the book, and again, I suspect that many of them haven't read it.
 * The point of all this, is what can we say about Lerner's book that is also verifiable? I am sure that Lerner will also acknowledge that the book has received criticisms. Many scientists also share Lerner's cynicism of the Big Bang, and I would guess are not negative of his book. --Iantresman 22:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * A scientific critique of the book itself is not important anyway. It is for lay people and is thus going to be incorrect, just as QED (Richard Feynman) is inaccurate. I wouldn't even expect to see a critique of the writing style of a book in an encyclopaedic article on the book's author, let alone a critique of the models and theories that it explains - a statement of the writing style should also be relegated to an article on the book itself. There seems to be far too much of a religious influence on the editting and discussion of this article with all sides being desperate (to the point of ridicule - from the PoV of an onlooker) to convince all readers that their personal belief is the one true way - Tristan Wibberley 20:13, 6 August 2006


 * Pretty much what I suggest on 26 July 2006, above. This is a biogaphy, not a critique of Lerner's theories, which are discussed elsewhere. --Iantresman 19:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "Science Library Head" implies the man is a librarian, not a physicist, and there's no reason to think the Chicago Tribune piece is written by an expert; it's a popular book, and that's a book review. The three "positives" you have under peer-reviewed publications don't seem to be papers about Lerner's book, but rather simply other papers about plasma cosmology.  The Whitney one (the only one I could actually read the text of) barely makes mention of Lerner's book; the context is "The big bang theory is not without doubts (Lerner, 1992);" hardly a "reaction", but in any case as was in the article at one point, lack of peer-reviewed _criticism_ is more likely due to the book never having been taken seriously outside of the plasma physics community.  I think a reasonably fair treatment, and one backed up by the reviews we have, is "Lerner's book, while well-received by the general public, has received little attention from scientists outside of the plasma physics community."  We could go on to mention Van Allen's opinion (it's a notable exception).  We can mention that there has been non-reviewed informal criticism, and responses from Lerner.  In terms of whether the lack of peer-reviewed criticism implies a positive or negative reception, I think we should let the facts speak for themselves.  Do we know of any peer reviewed papers outside of plasma cosmology/plasma physics that even cite Lerner's book?  Mango juice talk 01:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Lerner's articles have appeared in peer-reviewed non-plasma physics journals such as : Astrophysical Journal Astrophysics and Space Science
 * Lerner's articles have been cited by peer-reviewed non-plasma physics journals such as: Physical Review A, Nature , Astronomy and Astrophysics , Astrophysics and Space Science
 * Again, this seems very far from the "pseudoscience" allegation. --Iantresman 10:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Articles, sure, I would expect that. What about his book?  (BTW, I'm strongly against the "pseudoscience" term, I couldn't find any real substantiation for that.)  Mango juice talk 13:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope, only the ones in the plasma science citations provided above. --Iantresman 14:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to respond to "I for one am very much against quoting many different sources". I am very much against removing any source either pro or con (that is a subject of this debate) and would like to propose that any such source be moved to a footnote rather than deleted. WAS 4.250 23:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sources, sure. But there's no need to keep the full quotes; even in references that's unnecessary. - unsigned Mango juice talk

It is important whenever a source is provided to give the reader data on what is at the source that is relevant to the aricle. WAS 4.250 01:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Not really. Check out any featured article's references and you'll find very few where the reference is explained any more than simply providing the details of the source.  Today's featured article, Mosque, includes quotes in (I think) 3 of 81 references, and of those, none are actually needed.  Mango juice talk 02:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sole reliable supporter of Eric's book
There is really only one legitimate supporter of Eric's work mentioned above. Not unsurprisingly, Van Allen, who Eric managed to get to favorably review his very dated book for his dust jacket, isn't exactly trumpeting the fortunes of Eric today. Why did this luminary favorably review Eric's work? It happens that Van Allen is one of the few remaining of a literally dying breed of old-school astrophysicists who were philosophical fans of the steady state model, and never quite got comfortable with what CMB observations were saying about the universe. When Eric's ideas first gained traction in the 1990s, some cosmologists were concerned that the CMB might have no anisotropies at all (which would have meant a terrible problem for the Big Bang model). So while the handwringing began, a lot of these old-time believers came out of the woodwork hoping to salve their wounds from being on the losing side in the great Hoyle v. Gammow bouts back in the 40s, 50s, and into the 60s. For some thirty years, few had been pursuing new leads in cosmological models. Hoyle was still around, but his ideas had grown archaic and weird. Then out of the small corner of people who studied Alfven, Eric emerged to champion a new hope with of all things electricity. Their hope unfortunately proved to be misplaced. First of all, Eric was pretty roundly panned in the astronmical community when he appeared at a few conferences in the early 90s to taunts and jeers. It was soon realized by even the more placating cosmologists nervous about the smoothness of the CMB that Eric's command of physics and astronomy belied that of a student couldn't pass qualifiers in graduate school. Eric had a rather embarassing encounter (sometimes termed a "debate") at Princeton University with David Spergel who put him to shame for his lack of rigor. When COBE discovered the anisotropies, the community breathed a collective sigh of relief and Eric attained official "flash in the pan" status.

What is left of Eric's brush with his great hope of Einstein-like greatness is a dead idea (from a research perpsective) that in no way keeps pace with current understandings of cosmology. Comparing Eric's work to that of Seljak or Hu is like comparing a nursery rhyme to James Joyce. Eric now publishes his work in second-rate astronomy journals from time-to-time claiming with shoddy techniques and innuendo that there are problems with the standard paradigm, but his pleas have fallen mainly on deaf ears. In the last 10 years, the only laudatory comments are from those not directly involved with cosmological research, a state of marginalization admitted to by Eric in his puff-piece "open letter" submitted to New Scientist magazine. The way to describe Eric's work is of brief fringe interest some 15 years ago and now completely dismissed for being no good alternative to the Big Bang.

--71.57.90.3 05:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * New Scientist published a letter indicating a couple of dozen scientists who might disagree with your summary,. Since then, several HUNDRED other scientists, engineers, and other researchers have added their names. Since then, there has also been an academic conference on "Alternative Cosmologies".
 * Lerner's theories, based on the Alfvén's "Plasma Universe" continues to be investigated, see for example the "IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science" (IEEE TPS) (2003 Vol 31 No 6), a peer-reviewed publication of the IEEE Nuclear and Plasma Sciences Society which has some 30,000 members; the American Astronomy Society has but 6500 members,. Another special issue of the IEEE TPS on the Plasma Universe is due in 2007. --Iantresman 10:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Gary F Moring's book, "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Theories of the Universe" was published in 2002. It includes a section on Plasma Cosmology, and doesn't seem to be as dismissive; I would suggest the description is exemplary in writing neutrally about controversial subjects. --Iantresman 10:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

1) By design, there is no way to judge the status of the "dozens of scientists" who were signors of the Open Letter. More than a few have no familiarity with physics. Some don't even have bachelors degrees in scientific disciplines. 2) Eric publishes in out-of-the-way and second-rate journals, yes. That does not make his ideas "investigated" by anyone but his own clique. Yes, he was one of the people at the "alternatice cosmology conference" which had no scientific society affiliation and suffers from the same status problems as the Open Letter. 3) Using an "Idiot's Guide" as a reference is idiotic. Don't do it. I know Moring personally. He is a teacher for University of Phoenix, an online for-profit university of questionable "diploma-mill" repute, and he is basically a science writer, like Lerner, who couldn't cut it in the field. The page linked has no fewer than six distinct errors I caught. The author is not qualified to write the book, it seems. Accuracy is important.

--71.57.90.3 06:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * And by the same reasoning:
 * there is no way to judge that "There is really only one legitimate supporter of Eric's work mentioned above." Are you psychic?
 * Surely you're not suggesting that The IEEE Transactions on Plasma Sciences is a second-rate, out-of-the-way journal? There are probably many astronomy journals that I haven't heard of, but I wouldn't dream of calling them second-rate.
 * What do you mean that Moring is "basically a science writer"? Is your only form of criticism to denigrate other scientists? I don't know Moring, but it seems that he has an M.A. from John F. Kennedy University, a B.A. from the University of Wisconsin, and a Ph.D. Candidate at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco, majoring in Cosmology. And it seems that he has time to write as well... and your assumption is that he "couldn't cut it in the field". I bow down to your superiour intellect and wisdom, and will make sure that all book publishers check with you first. --Iantresman 10:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The reference is to the only legitimate supporter verifiably mentioned. IEEE transactions is neither an astrophysics nor a physical cosmology journal (making it out-of-the-way). Eric has a habit of submitting his papers to every journal he can think of because his papers on plasma cosmology tend to be rejected more often than not because of his incompetence. He found modest success with IEEE only because their editors are not familiar with astronomy and one of them is a sincere fan of Alfvèn. California Institute of Integral Studies is not generally considered a reputable institution for astronomical study. Moring is a New Age guru who likes to believe that the "universe" can talk to him in a very esoteric/quasi religious fashion. He would fit right in at the cosmology article, but he is no scientist. --ScienceApologist 20:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * IEEE Transactions may well be out-of-the-way for astronomers; It's not for plasma physicists. The implication that "astronomers must no best" is an arrogant conceit. --Iantresman 20:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The assumption is that when someone writes about astronomy, astronomical journals are usually where one does it. --ScienceApologist 20:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * When someone writes about plasma, it seems equally valid to publish in a journal where people also know about the subject. As Alfvén himself recounted:


 * ".. it gives me a possibility to approach the phenomena from another point than most astrophysicists do, and it is always fruitful to look at any phenomenon under two different points of view. On the other hand it has given me a serious disadvantage. When I describe the phenomena according to this formalism most referees do not understand what I say and turn down my papers. With the referee system which rules US science today, this means that my papers rarely are accepted by the leading US journals. Europe, including the Soviet Union, and Japan are more tolerant of dissidents." Memoirs of a Dissident Scientist, American Scientist, May - June 1988
 * Which is not to say that papers aren't published in astronomy journals too,; it's a shame you weren't there to advise them of their folley. --Iantresman 20:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

None of this speaks to the main point of this section. It's clear now that Eric is marginalized, derided, and not accepted by the astronomical community. The article should not pussyfoot around this fact. --ScienceApologist 20:44, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Certain people may deride Lerner's work, but they don't speak for anyone else but themselves. I'll agree that there is no acceptance by the astronomical community; but demonstrably, Lerner's work and extended theories are nevertheless STILL discussed in IEEE journals and elsewhere. --Iantresman 22:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If Jonathan continues to vandalize this page, I will request that it again be protected in the version that it was last protected.Elerner 03:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia defines what vandalism is. My edits do not fall in line with that definition. I suggest you respond to the actual content of the edits themselves. Page protection is not meant to endorse any specific version of the article. You'll have to work with me to get to a consensus or use dispute resolution to get to the bottom of your issues. --ScienceApologist 04:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Having reviewed the article history, accusations of vandalism are clearly false, and a breach of WP:Civility. SA's contributions appear highly useful, and in many cases clearly backed up by Wikipedia policy. Jefffire 12:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see there is a conflict of interest from Elerner. I generaly regard it to be a bad idea for Wikipedians to edit there own articles. Jefffire 12:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I object to ScienceApologist's removal of Lerner's status as an "astronomer" or "scientist", which is verifiable material:
 * This Goddard Space Flight Center page says that Lerner "... was recently a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory in Santiago, Chile", as does "The Space Show" page . The ESO descibes Lerner as a "Visiting Scientist"
 * That Riccardo Scarpa invited Lerner, is irrelevent in a biography on Lerner, and Scarpa's position on the Big Bang and MOND are also nothing to do with Lerner. --Iantresman 13:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Lerner's major research activity is his own independent work into fusion which is only obliquely related to his plasma cosmology anymore. There is a good argument to be made that his advocacy of plasma cosmology is done to boost his reputation and get funding for his lab. Lerner's credentials are also sorely lacking. --ScienceApologist 14:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not the place to make arguments are debate. It describes verifiable information, and it is verifiable that he was considered a visiting astronomer. --Iantresman 15:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I suppose the question is: What makes someone a scientist or an astronomer? Jefffire 15:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Being invited by a friend to visit an observatory doesn't make someone necessarily an astronomer. Unless Ian has a source for such a claim. --ScienceApologist 15:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." . It is verifiable that Lerner was invited as a visiting astronomer and/or visiting scientist. --Iantresman 15:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

But is it verifiable that he is one? It's our own little demarkation problem. Jefffire 15:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not for us to decide. That he was visiting astronomer is verifiable, whether he is one or not --Iantresman 16:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because you are invited to visit an observatory doesn't mean that you are a professional astronomer. --ScienceApologist 16:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The sources don't say he was an invited professional astronomer. The sources say he was invited an "vistiting astronomer"; Lerner could be Santa Claus for all I care, but the sources say he was an invited astronomer. That is verifiable and meets Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. --Iantresman 18:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's also verifiable that he was invited to visit an observatory by a fellow signatory of the Open Letter. Why should we include that he was supposedly an invited "astronomer"? Seems arbitrary to me. --ScienceApologist 19:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Because the verifiable sources say that he's an invited astronomer. --Iantresman 19:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because something is verifiable does not mean that we must include it -- especially if its misleading and there are other points that are verifiable about the same subject as well. --ScienceApologist 19:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * How is it misleading? --Iantresman 19:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Saying that I was invited by Riccardo Scarpa to visit ESO is very different than saying that ESO invited me to be a Visiting Astronomer. The latter is the truth. A five-person committee, of which Riccardo Scarpa is not a member, decided who is to be a Visiting Astronomer for a month, based on proposals from “inviting scientists” –in my case, Scarpa. On the basis of the invitation from ESO’s committee, the Visiting Astronomer is given an ESO stipend to cover their stay and is invited to give a seminar at ESO. All of these are organizational decisions by ESO. I was invited by ESO's committee, given the stipend and I presented the seminar.


 * To continually revert this information is to introduce false information on a biographical entry, which is not allowed. Also, reverting to eliminate that false information is not covered by the three-revert rule, but introducing it is. I have requested protection for this page, as the willful introduction of false information is not allowed by Wikipedia standards.Elerner 00:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Now Eric, that's not exactly what happens at ESO and you should know it considering you were invited there. The committee in question acts more of a rubber stamp as long as the astronomer requesting the visit hasn't been over-burdening the observatory with requested visitors. If Scarpa hadn't invited you, there is no way you would have been offered a visit. Can you point to a case where the committee turned down a prospective visitor due to a poor proposal? --ScienceApologist 13:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * How in the world would you know Joshua? Have you been invited there as a visiting astronomer?Of course you are 100% wrong. Since the invitations come with money attached and there is a finite pool of money, of course the committee has to decide who to invite and not act as a rubber stamp. The fact is it was ESO that invited me. Your behavior is completely unprofessional. Elerner 20:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The better question is, how in the world do we know whether you know, Eric? How can we nkow that you have seen the inner workings of this particular ESO committee? I happen to know personally because I have friends who were invited to ESO to work just like you. Of course, neither of our claims about the way this process happens are verifiable so therefore they cannot be used as evidence for this article. The fact is that you were invited to ESO by a Scarpa. This is all arguments based on hearsay (from both ends) and so all we have to go on is the evidence. The evidence clearly shows that you were invited to ESO by Scarpa. I have no problem reporting this. Why do you? --ScienceApologist 12:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We know because it is verifiable, as provided by the TWO sources I gave earlier. The sources say that Lerner was a "visting astronomer", whether Lerner was actually a visiting astronomer, whether he really turned up, really is an astronomer, or anything else, is conjecture. --Iantresman 13:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There seems to be two issues here: 1) How to write about Eric Lerner being invited to ESO, 2) whether Lerner is an "astronomer" in the same sense that, for example, Martin Rees is an astronomer. The first issue involves whether or not to report that he was invited by Scarpa. Since this is verifiable fact, I see no reason why we should exclude it and it provides a good context for his invite (he was invited as a proponent of non-standard cosmologies). The second is a more tricky categorical controversy and doesn't lend itself to simple sourcing or verification. In theory, ESO can invite anybody they want, but simply inviting someone to an observatory with a stipend doesn't make that person an astronomer. However, we may not have a good criteria for what makes an astronomer. In any case, the two issues must be separated lest we confuse them. --ScienceApologist 14:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * One of the verifiable sources says "he was recently a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory". How he came to be invited is irrelevent. Is he an astronomer like Martin Rees, again is irrelevent. I have no doubt that there are probably different astronomers, those with telescopes, those without, those that have published papers, those that haven't, those with degrees, those without. One thing is for sure, it is not for you to decide, as ScienceApologist is not verifiable.  --Iantresman 14:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ian, surely it is your opinion that these things you say are irrelevant are irrelevant. It is totally verifiable that Scarpa invited Lerner to ESO. It is also worth at least a discussion as to whether or not it is appropriate to describe Eric in the openning as an "astronomer" when he is the director of a terrestrial laboratory. --ScienceApologist 21:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * None of the previous discussions have concerned the relevence of this information. I don't know if Eric is an astronomer, nor whether terrestrial lab directors can be astronomers.
 * I believe that Michael Faraday was a bookbinder, William Herschel a musician and composer, and Charles Darwin a clergyman, and I would guess that most people would call them scientists too.
 * I also know of graduates that have done work with the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, had their work published in Astronomy journals, but work in a terrestrial college doing one of the most challenging jobs on the planet (all verifiable). Are they an astronomer? researcher? chemist? physicist? teacher? I wouldn't take any of them away from you.
 * But of Eric, I do know that NASA reports that "he was recently a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory". --Iantresman 22:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Ian, let's use the source you outline. The source is an abstract from a colloquim given by Eric on Aerogels. It describes Eric as a plasma physicist first off, not as an astronomer. That's what we do. It mentions he was a visiting astronomer at ESO. We also mention his visitation and add the clarification that he was invited by Scarpa. This is all verifiable, and it seems to work with your source. --ScienceApologist 22:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds fine to me, and partly corroborated by the Space Show source . I've never had any problems with the "Invited by Scarpa" bit, only that it replaced the "visiting astronomer" bit. --Iantresman 23:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hooray, we have consensus. Just in time for Eric Lerner to revert it! --ScienceApologist 23:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, the consensus didn't make it into the current version which is on page protection. I thought the edit went through, but it apparently was eaten by the big bad database. The statement should read ...was invited to be a visitng astronomer by.... How's that for compromise? --ScienceApologist 01:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems reasonable to me. See my comment below. I'm going to take the liberty of including this since it is acceptable to you. This is a good faith attempt to remove some of the heat from the dispute, while the page is protected, so I hope that I won't get hammered by both sides. Metamagician3000 02:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience
Why is this article not appropriately tagged pseudoscience? JBKramer 20:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * (1) Because people are never categorised as pseudoscience (2) While Lerner's research may be considered minority research (despite him having about 50 peer reviewed papers to his name), I have not found any reliable sources that even hint at it falling into this category. --Iantresman 20:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Eric Lerner himself is not "pseudoscience". However, plasma cosmology may be -- it all depends on how you demarcate it. --ScienceApologist 21:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There is nothing to suggest that plasma cosmology is pseudoscience, or even might be pseudoscience. Do you have a references? I might even accept a blog. --Iantresman 22:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This is best left to the Talk:Plasma cosmology page. --ScienceApologist 22:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Now i do NOT favor the views of LERNER but calling all his works and the plasma universe pseudoscience is just as ignorant as it gets. Go look up in the dictionary PC, like personal computer. It ultimately moved us as a society forward to the status of conducting protoscientific studies which too are valuable and 100% scientific per se. Again i am nowhere near a proponent of those theories which Lerner is working on, but at the least one shouldn`t be as STUPID to call everything pseudoscience because one doesn`t like it. Of course if one is so blinded by his own emotions that he can`t think clear anymore that`s a whole different issue then.

I think Lerner is stupid and ignorant in that he believes that all big bangers are inflexible, blinded, follow an almost religious dogma, intentionally try to uphold an supposedly crumbling theory and whatnot, when in fact it is the best theory we got - and the majority knows that and thus USES the theory. Hardly anyone is in love, dogmatic or a blind follower and treats this theory like any other just on another level, given the problems with cosmology itself. That being said the study of the big bang itself is a protoscience. Slicky 19:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

A little song, a little dance, a little revert down your pants
Quick recap:

For some time now, Eric has made his intention known that he will unilaterally revert articles when he feels like it. This is an unfortunate situation, but as Eric is far from a consistent Wikipedian and only edits articles related to himself, is a manageable if not regrettable inconvenience. However, I'm now put in an awkward position because:

1) Eric Lerner has reverted the article again. 2) Yesterday, Ian Tresman tried to get me banned from editting all science articles by claiming I was personally attacking Eric. 3) User:Shell Kinney decided to block me not for personal attacks but for edit warring. This despite my continued pleas here and elsewhere to actually discuss content with Eric rather than engaging in this childish back-and-forth.

I'm going to wait and see what other editors think about what has just happened. I'll note that above I was able to cobble out a consensus wording with User:Iantresman regarding Eric's visitor status at ESO. This has now been reverted. We also came to an agreement with User:Shell Kinney that the Sean Carroll reference is probably okay. This has been reverted. Eric has reintroduced an exhaustive list of accolades that smack of a conflict-of-interest described at WP:AUTO. It is my sincere opinion that this action was not only uncalled for, it was symptomatic of Eric's behavior and should be reversed.

--ScienceApologist 23:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, here's what another editor thinks. I think your edit history generally amounts to "my way or the wrong way". You are frequently unable to separate people from their ideas and tend to behave irrationally when unable to cope with dissenting opinion. You are trying to be a rigid absolutist authoritarian rational materialist in an uncertain, complex-adaptive evolving and unpredictable universe. Get yourself a cat. Jon 12:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Protected
The page is fully protected due to the recent revert warring and problems with WP:AUTO. Discuss and resolve the dispute here. Vsmith 00:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly object to my page being protected in the form that SA has reverted it to, as opposed to the form in which it was last protected. It is now clearly libelous.


 * The issue here is that SA is accusing me of lying and using false information to do it. I was a Visiting Astronomer at ESO in February 2006. I have so stated in several places. Not a big deal, but a fact.


 * SA has repeatedly reverted this fact on my wiki entry to state that I was invited by a friend to visit ESO, a completely different thing. If that were true, which someone relying on Wikipedia would believe, then my claiming that I was a Visiting Astronomer is a lie. In science, faking credentials is a particularly bad thing to do. But that is what anyone using Wikipedia will conclude about me, if SA’s edits are allowed to stand. I urge that the page be protected in the same form that it was last protected in, without this libel.Elerner 01:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Libel is a serious charge. One that is subject to Wikipedia's policy on legal issues. I'll report your objections to the proper groups. --ScienceApologist 01:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not a lawyer but having looked it over, nothing I see there could reasonably constitute libel. The article does not say that you lied or such as far as I can tell. Is there a specific sentence that you see as a possibly libelous? JoshuaZ 01:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Also, please keep in mind that articles are frequently protected when edit disputes are too extreme. Inevitably they will be protected in a way that makes someone unhappy. Please be patient and understanding. JoshuaZ 01:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I have already reported them. Your repeated accusations on my page and on the talk page that I was lying about my credentials, specifically about being a Visting Astronomer at ESO is libelous.Elerner 01:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think your credentials are perfectly clear. You have a bachelor's degree, dropped out of graduate school, and were invited by Scarpa to be a visitor at ESO. I wasn't aware that Scarpa was your friend, but if he is that's hardly a matter of record and quite irrelevant to the article. --ScienceApologist 01:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Is this the same Eric Lerner that has worked with the Lyndon LaRouche science publications?--Cberlet 01:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe so, but I think they had a falling out over a patent dispute. Is that right, Eric? --ScienceApologist 01:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I should add that the other edits of SA, which are now protected, make this article completley biased by removing ALL positive comments on my book, including by such authorities as James Van Allen.The version that was previously protected had exactly the same number of positive as negetive comments, and ,as far as possible, balanced even who was doing the commenting--Penzias vs Van Allen for example.Elerner 01:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Two questions for ScienceApologist: (1) what is the big deal about him being described as "Visiting Astronomer"? Surely he either was or he wasn't entitled to be referred to as such, and it is important to him to have it right. If there's no reason to disbelieve him on this and there are statements in the public domain, why not use the expression? (Actually: I see you are expressed willingness to incorporate the expression earlier on this talk page, so I guess it's just a matter of your confirming that.) (2) Is there a source for the very last point? It sounds very damaging, but as it stands it looks like original research. I suggest that the description of this debate either be attributed to some source which claims that that he performed so poorly in the debate described, or that this point be dropped.

For Elerner: I don't think you are the right person to be responding to criticisms, beyond correcting facts. If there are attributable and credible statements in your support, I suggest you present them here on the talk page where they can be debated.

To both of you: you may need to get dispute resolution on this article. The above suggestions are simply an attempt to suggest how the matter should normally proceed in the absence of any more formal steps to resolve the dispute. Metamagician3000 02:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Look, all the needed references to everything are in the Sept.4 version of this page, the one that was protected on July 20. Just look at that. I did not notice SA's little opinion of the debate at Princeton. It is obviously his own personal opnion, and is of a piece with the rest of his edits.Elerner 02:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the debate was in 1993 and SA would have been too young to witness it. So, since there were no published accounts of the debate, this is just hearsay from someone who did witness the debate, possibly Spergel himself. Hardly verifiable stuff.Elerner 03:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I don't want to get too involved in this. I'm just trying to see if there's anything I can do to take the heat out. I just inserted some wording that I see SA had already agreed to, which might make you a bit happier. Is there any reason why you can't put the material in your support on this page in dot form? If there is, fair enough. I'm just doing what little bit of informal mediation I can while I have a spare minute. Maybe it'll all be counterproductive. Admins intervene in content disputes at their peril. You guys really need some more concerted help through the dispute resolution processes.


 * Must go now. I'll check what happened in a few hours. Metamagician3000 02:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your efforts, metamagician, but I am a bit unclear on what I am supposed to do. On the one hand you ask me to put supporting material in summary form, on the other you say maybe I should butt out.


 * Anyway, I can provide information to clarify why I think the reference to Scarpa does not belong in the mention of my being a Visiting Astronomer at ESO. (Personally, I don't think it merits a mention in the lead paragraph. I would prefer it just be included in the paragraph SA deleted about where I lectured.)


 * Here’s the start of the email that I received from ESO on 10/25/05:

“From Dr. Felix Mirabel, ESO/Chile Head of Office for Science To Mr. Eric Lerner Dear Mr. Lerner, Following the recommendation of the Selection Committee for Visiting Scientists at ESO/Santiago, I have the pleasure of inviting you to spend a one-month period at ESO/Chile research facilities in Santiago.”


 * I think that is perfectly clear who did the inviting. Scarpa merely made a proposal to the Selection committee.Elerner 03:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In terms of what I would like changed, the first change that I would like is that the two paragraphs at the end of the "scientific activities" section, deleted by SA, to be re-instated. They are:

"He has presented this approach to fusion at several scientific conferences including (in the past five years) the IEEE International Conference on Plasma Science, 2002: the American Physical Society, 2003 and the XI Latin American Workshop on Plasma Physics, 2005. Lerner was an invited speaker at both the Fifth (2003) and Sixth (2005) Symposia on Current Trends in International Fusion Research, which is sponsored by the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). In the Sixth Symposium the paper was presented with Robert E. Terry, Naval Research Laboratory)(http://www.physicsessays.com/doc/s2005/Lerner_Transparencies.pdf) His work challenging the Big Bang theory has been reported in popular science magazines, including a cover article of New Scientist (July 2, 2005) and in television and film documentaries . His views on cosmology have been published in periodicals ranging from Sky and Telescope to The New York Times. He is co-editor of the Proceedings of the First Crisis in Cosmology Conference (American Institute of Physics Proceeding Series.) In 2006, he was a Visiting Astronomer at the European Southern Observatory (ESO) in Santiago, Chile. He has been invited to present his theories at many leading institutions, including ESO, NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Princeton University, the University of Pavia (Italy), The University of Buenos Aires, Argentina and the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden."

I don't see how SA can have any legitimate reason for knocking all this out.Elerner 03:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Second change is to change the one-sided and inaccurate subtitle"Criticism of Lerner's ideas" (a section that actually has both criticism and support of my book) to "Debate on Lerner's Book, The Big Bang Never Happened".  All of it does relate to my 1991 book, not to my technical papers.


 * Third change is to reinstate the two supporting quotes that SA deleted :

"James Van Allen, discover of the Van Allen belts, wrote, on the back cover of The Big Bang Never Happened

"Eric J. Lerner gives both a provocative critique of the Big Bang and a stimulating account of the insightful and creative, although controversial, cosmology of Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfven."


 * The Chicago Tribune reviewing The Big Bang Never Happened, noted that

"Lerner does a fine job poking holes in Big Bang thinking and provides a historical perspective as well, linking scientific theories to trends in philosophy, politics, religion and even economics...a most readable book."[9] "Elerner 04:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Last change is to delete the Caroll and Feuerbacher quotes. If there is going to be some semblance of NPOV, there should be some rough balance in the quotes. In my view, this is less important than the other changes.Elerner 04:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure there is much I can do right now. I thought it fair enough to put in the few words that I did since they cover one of the points you are upset about and SA had already agreed to them. I don't think anyone can criticise me for doing that much with the protected article, but I hesitate to do more at the moment while it's protected.


 * Isn't there any way you guys can sort out your differences re the points Elerner wants to put in, including what he says about the e-mail from Dr Mirabel and the currently unsourced criticism at the end? For all I know, his theory may be a significant breakthrough or it may be the worst kind of pseudoscience, or it may be something in between; I'm not qualified to judge that and would not want to do so anyway in my role as interfering/ineffectual-but-trying-to-be helpful-and-not-make-things-worse admin. :) I do have some opinions but they may well be wrong and I have no intention of doing anything to try to force them on you. For example, I'm not impressed by a reference to "The Chicago Tribune" as if the newspaper itself supported something. If this reference goes in at all (which I am neutral about) surely it should name the actual reviewer or whatever, and unless the reviewer is someone eminent that doesn't seem to get us anywhere. More generally, I don't see any need for things to be "balanced" in number of supporting/opposing quotes if the weight of scientific opinion is currently against Elerner's work. OTOH, if there are reputable individuals who have supported, they can be quoted, as long as it's sourced, IMO. I also think the very last bit (the damning report of the debate) needs to be either sourced or removed (Edit: I see it has been removed for now by someone else).


 * But those are just things for both of you to think about. I have no particular authority here. The bottom line is you are both obviously highly intelligent people. How do you both think you could fairly resolve the dispute, bearing in mind what we now have here on the talk page (the things Elerner would like to include and the things he'd like to remove, plus anything else found above from either of you and others who've commented)? I'd like to be able to unprotect the page, but not if it just leads to more reversions or in Elerner directly making controversial edits about himself. If there's any sort of procedure you could agree to, or any set of changes you could agree upon pro tem, I'd be happy to unlock the page for you. Is mediation a possibility at all, for example? Metamagician3000 08:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction
IMO, this sentence does not belong in the introduction. "He was invited by fellow Big Bang critic and MOND enthusiast Riccardo Scarpa to be a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory in Chile." The sentence should be farther down in the article. Does not have the level of importance that makes it worthy of place in intro. FloNight 01:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We could consider omitting it entirely. It may not belong in the article at all. --ScienceApologist 01:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I proposed that the mention of ESO not be in the first paragraph. It should be a simple sentence. “He was a Visiting Astronomer at the European Southern Observatory in 2006.”It could either be at the end of the first paragraph on Scientific Activities or it could go into the paragraph I proposed above and repeat here:


 * “His work challenging the Big Bang theory has been reported in popular science magazines, including a cover article of New Scientist (July 2, 2005) and in television and film documentaries . His views on cosmology have been published in periodicals ranging from Sky and Telescope to The New York Times. He is co-editor of the Proceedings of the First Crisis in Cosmology Conference (American Institute of Physics Proceeding Series.) In 2006, he was a Visiting Astronomer at the European Southern Observatory (ESO) in Santiago, Chile. He has been invited to present his theories at many leading institutions, including ESO, NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Princeton University, the University of Pavia (Italy), The University of Buenos Aires, Argentina and the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden.”


 * Who invited me to ESO is a fine detail. As the letter I posted above shows, the invitation actually came from Felix Mirabel, ESO/Chile Head of Office for Science.


 * While my views clearly are supported by a minority in the community, it would be absurd for ESO to spend money to have me down there to do research for a month and give a seminar if they did not feel my views were worth listening to. So my being a Visiting Astronomer does contradict SA’s hysterical view of me.


 * SA’s description of the July 20 version of this article, which I advocate, that in it “ the criticisms amounted to little more than off-handed comments”, is wildly inaccurate.  That version contains four critical comments, all much longer than the three positive ones.

I urge the various administrators to actually look at that version.


 * At the moment, I can’t find the Chicago Tribune review. Until I do, (next time I go to the library) I think it should not be included.


 * By the way, SA’s statement that I wrote the article about myself is obviously wrong. I did edit it. But it was written, and edited, by quite a few others for eight months before I looked at it, let alone changed it. Check the history.Elerner 03:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've written the "visiting astronomer sentence" in a way that seems more accurate and put it in what strikes me as the logical place. I'm not prepared to remove the reference to Campa while SA insists it's important. I can't make the judgment that he is wrong about that - and indeed it does seem to be of at least some importance to me as a layperson that this appointment involved a bit of academic networking (not that there's anything wrong with that - it happens all the time). It certainly doesn't look like irrelevant information. I guess no one will be entirely happy with what I've done, but it does actually seem to me to be an improvement in being more accurate and better placed. If it can be improved further in a way that you can agree on, let me know. When I get a chance, and while you're all considering the mediation/arbitration issue, I'll look at some of the other points that have been made and see if there's anything I can suggest. Metamagician3000 05:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Good rewrite and the new placement makes sense. Agree with keeping this wording that includes who invited him to the observatory. FloNight 10:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, FloNight. More generally, there was some debate at AN/I about the propriety of using the Preposterous Universe blog as a source. As far as I can see, this is one of those occasions when it is appropriate to use a blog, since it is by someone suitable reputable in the field. I think it carries more weight than stray reviews that any science journalist might get the gig to write (even I have done some gigs like that, but my views would count for nothing). At the same time, reading the current version cold, I think the "Criticisms" section looks like overkill. We want to make the point that can't really be contested that mainstream scientists find grave problems with Mr Lerner's work, and it is very much on (if not beyond) the fringes of current science. It is believed to challenge a dominant paradigm that is not considered to be in any way in crisis, whatever Lerner argues. Any other impression would be misleading and surely there is a source for what I just said. But I don't think we need this litany of quotes to prove the point. Even if we use all of the sources, surely we could paraphrase some of them concisely so it looks less as if Wikipedia is out to bury the guy.  At the same time, if he does have some mainstream support, or at least some mainstream respect for something he has done, I believe it is fine to point that out. I don't see anything wrong with making the point that this is generally considered fringe stuff but then saying, "Nonetheless he has some support and has had some success in getting high-profile treatment in popular science publications such as New Scientist." Then say whatever the facts are about this. None of that would detract from the fact that he is seen as a fringe figure by the mainstream scientific community (which should be clear). But it would round out the picture.


 * I don't have precise suggestions about how to word any of this; I'm just reporting how the balance of this version looks to someone a bit detached from the debate who is not at all a fan of fringe science. I am by no means suggesting we go back to anything like the 20 July version, which seems much too sugarcoated about his position within the scientific community. Metamagician3000 11:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. That sounds very fair and balanced. --Iantresman 12:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Metamagician3000 is getting closer to the ideas I have about the direction the article should take. Summarizing, in my mind, is always better than baldly quoting. Let's, however, make a few things clear:
 * the current criticisms of Lerner take two varieities: one of his book and another of his over-all work. We shouldn't conflate the two. I notice Eric does above.
 * The criticism of Eric have been made in a number of ways. It might be useful to the reader to know the kind of criticisms Eric has received, not just that he has received criticisms.
 * The praise Eric has received has been from either historical supporters of non-standard cosmologies (i.e. Van Allen) or people who are outside of the field (i.e. a science librarian). There are no positive reviews from people who are part of the scientific consensus. This is important because there are positive reviews out there of other non-standard astrophysicists. Jayant Narlikar and Halton Arp come quickly to mind. However, these two astronomers have academic appointments and are much more in-touch with the standard community for whatever reasons.
 * I was reminded above that Eric was once a member of LaRouche's party who has in its platform Big Bang denial. I don't know whether this is relevant to the article or not.

--ScienceApologist 12:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

View from the peanut gallery
As an observer who is trying to stay out of the line of fire but can't resist poking his head up now and then, I have this to say:

As a reader, I want to know where to place Lerner in the God-to-kook spectrum. That is why it is important for me to learn that he didn't finish graduate school and does not have an appointment at an academic institution or government research lab. At the same time, there are plenty of kooks that are a lot worse than he is, so I am interested in knowing that he tries to and succeeds at publishing his work in refereed journals and at least got officially invited to a respectable place like ESO (Chile). Those are things I would naturally assume about a mainstream scientist so they don't need to be reported there, but they are not usually true of Big-Bang-deniers so they have a place here. On the other hand, I don't need a lot of detail on these things, and I don't need quotations from six reviews of his book.

Finally, for anyone who hasn't figured it out yet, I am not fond of Eric, either as a scientist or as an editor. But there are also lots of worse scientists and worse editors out there, so let's keep calm about this. For the rest, this discussion is too wordy. To the extent that there is still disagreement (which is not clear to me), it would help to have, for each of the two or three controversial passages, two or three alternate versions to focus the discussion.

--Art Carlson 08:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I also tend to feel that six quotes are excessive, as they are all highly selective. Perhaps we should just say that Lerner has received a number of criticisms, some positive, some negative, and list them (without quoting) in the footnotes.
 * I also think you're saying that although Lerner is marginalised, that you still want to know whether he has published in peer-reviwed journals. --Iantresman 09:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with Art Carlson. WAS 4.250 10:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a useful contribution. I'll be interested to see SA's reponse to it. Metamagician3000 10:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Eric's relationship with peer-reviewed journals is a bit more complicated than "he tries and succeeds at publishing his work in refereed journals". Lately, he has mostly avoided the traditional astrophysics and cosmology journals in favor of some "out-of-the-way" journals that have a bit more lenient standards or don't normally publish work regarding cosmology (such as IEEE transactions). I also don't think it is neutral just to say that Lerner has received "positive and negative" criticisms because the preponderance of the evidence seems to be that most active cosmologists either dismiss or ignore him. Why else would he sign the Open Letter? --ScienceApologist 12:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a big divide between publications that are refereed and those that are not. It gets fuzzy because there are better and worse venues of both types, and there are more and less stringent standards of review, and, as you point out, the journal may be more or less relevant to the subject of the paper, which has a bearing on the quality of the review. But still, the first question I would ask of somebody with a new idea in science is whether he publishes in refereed journals. So in any case we want to report that Lerner publishes in refereed journals. We might or might not want to include more details about exactly where he publishes. Do you want to propose a particular formulation? --Art Carlson 13:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The article could point out, for example, that lately Eric's cosmology work hasn't been seen in ApJ, AJ, or MNRAS and instead is relegated to ApSS and IEEE Plasma Transactions. That is neutral and verifiable, in my opinion. --ScienceApologist 13:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If your list of the leading journals in cosmology is generally acceptable, ideally by Eric himself, then it is neutral and relevant, but I feel it is too much detail for the main text anyway. How would you feel about putting it in a footnote? What does Eric think about it? --Art Carlson 14:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm amenable to this. I just would like to see in the text somewhere a statement to the effect that Eric doesn't publish in the leading astrophysics/cosmology journals. --ScienceApologist 14:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * To the second question, I agree we need to consider not just "agree" and "disagree", but also "ignore". But "ignore" by its nature is hard to verify. It would be good if there were a publication that reviewed almost all books on cosmology. If Lerner's book had been passed over, then we could verifiably state that he had been ignored. We could also take a poll of cosmologists and ask them if they have looked into Lerner's ideas. But we would have to do the same for many other authors to have a basis for comparison, and that would be original research anyway. I suspect it is true that he is largely ignored, and I agree it would be an important fact, but how do we get a grip on it? Is it sufficient to say that he himself feels ignored, as described in the Open Letter? If we editors, and in particular you and Eric as the extremes, can agree on the nature of his relationship to the scientific community (and it is by no means clear to me whether you already do or ever can), then we can discuss how best to formulate that relationship in a clear and NPOV way. Are there alternative formulations of this point in the record? (Sorry, I'm getting a bit lost.) --Art Carlson 13:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that this part is the most tricky. That's the problem when writing about the fringe or pseudoscience, the community tends to ignore or dismiss ideas outright. To illustrate, I was in a tea-discussion last year that went through astro-ph papers. Eric's last paper on the Tolman test was briefly discussed as a peculiarity and was criticized for poor methodology, but no one in the discussion cared to discuss his plasma cosmology connections. Everyone but me found it too "living in the past" for comment. --ScienceApologist 13:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You're suggesting that IEEE journals have more lenient standards... presumably because they publish Eric's articles?
 * "the preponderance of the evidence seems to be that most active cosmologists either dismiss or ignore him". Do you mean that there seems to be a preponderance of evidence (but isn't much really), or in your opinion there is a preponderance of the evidence, or the lack of evidence should be read as ignoring Eric's work, which should be read as dismissal? --Iantresman 13:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And we know why Eric signed the "Open Letter", the letter says so. Or are you suggesting an insidious motive? --Iantresman 13:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And "IEEE Journals Continue to Lead the Field in Citations"... so they're not that "out-of-the-way"? --Iantresman 13:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Careful with your unintended conflations. I'm not suggesting anything about the rigor of IEEE which is a journal about plasma physics transactions rather than cosmology or astrophysics (which means that it is somewhat out-of-the-way for cosmologists). I'm suggesting that the journal Astrophysics and Space Science has more lenient standards than, for example, Astrophysical Journal, Astronomical Journal, or Monthly Notices and is also a more obscure and out-of-the-way journal. Also, remember that many IEEE conference proceedings are not peer reviewed. --ScienceApologist 13:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "There is a big divide between publications that are refereed and those that are not." is false. (I am saying this without comment as to which side of the line EL's refereed publications fall on.)  Some "refereed" publications only investigate whether the thesis of the article agrees with their bias.  Normally, I would expect IEEE publications to be on the good side, but I wouldn't expect a plasma physicist to be up on discredited cosmological observations.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 00:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This is precisely the issue. --ScienceApologist 12:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The bloody arrogance! Cosmologists know best, so the IEEE must be publishing material that's been discredited elsewhere, so we KNOW the material is biased. Of course the exact opposite applies to cosmology articles authored by real astronomers, where the standards are much much higher, who approach each subject with complete neutrality. Peer reviewed refutations and discrediting evidence? Don't be silly, only fringe science has to follow the scientific method. --Iantresman 19:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration?
--Iantresman 09:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I feel that we should go to Arbitration. ScienceApologist's comments in the section above Arrogant, dismissive, and emotion-ridden tells us that we can't list Eric Lerner's "positive accolades and statements" because it is "to paint him as something he isn't". In other words, ScienceApologist and others believe Eric Lerner is a pseudoscientist, and Lerner's accolaides and achievements misleads this perecption.
 * This approach seems to be legitmized in the name of science, when ScienceApologist writes: "The scientific community is a closed-shop, arrogant, dismissive, and emotion-ridden group of mostly white men who marginalize, criticize, deride, and spitefully ignore those who don't live up to very arbitrary standards for inclusion."
 * Fortunately, Wikipedia does not agree that we "should adopt a 'scientific point of view'"
 * To delete Lerner's achievements because they might give the impression that he derseved them, is biased, [Wikipedia:POV_pushing|POV_pushing]], and discrediting.
 * I feel that a ruling is required, as it affects the editing all scientist articles, and any non-mainatream content.
 * I wonder whether any other administrators feel this approach is justified?

Introduction proposal
I suggest the following introduction, hopefully stating verifiable facts accurately and neutrally, and in a way that can be detailed later in the article if necessary. --Iantresman 13:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This version doesn't seem to illustrate that Eric is marginalized in the scientific community not just for writing a popular book (that's not the purview of science anyway), but for the reasons I outlined above. --ScienceApologist


 * We do say that plasma cosmology is non-mainstream in the first sentence.
 * What verifiable source(s) of information are you using as a basis for him being "marginalized in the scientific community", and we'll find a way to describe it accurately and neutrally.
 * A verifiable source, that was published in a well-known science journal, indicating that 200+ scientists and engineers may disagree with your perception (and I acknowledge that the letter is not specifically about Lerner and his specific work). --Iantresman 14:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I share SA concerns. This part: "He has presented his hypotheses at public and academic meetings, and his papers have appeared in peer-reviwed journals. An award-winning science writer, he wrote the controversial book, The Big Bang Never Happened (1992), receiving critical comment from members of the scientific community [review Refs], and sympathetic consideration from others.does not belong in the intro. Sounds like it is written by a PR agent. [[User:FloNight|FloNight] 13:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Since science is about peer review, and Lerner is most notable for his book, I'll remove some of the extra material. Here's a new draft:



Also, the Open Letter is not a sympathetic consideration of Eric's book per se. --ScienceApologist 13:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, I think I said that above somewhere. And the ignoring of his work does not also imply dismissal. --Iantresman 14:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So how would you describe Lerner, and the scientists involvement together in the "Open Letter". There is clearly some kind of common interest?

OK, changing the wording regarding the Open Letter:

How about:



No need to mention critics/supporters in the first paragraph. --ScienceApologist 17:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I prefer "popular science" to "popular level", and I note that "peer review" seems to have disappeared, a description which Art Carlson suggested help distinguishes gods from kooks.



--Iantresman 21:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This is closer. Can we say how many peer-reviewed articles Lerner has written on the subject? --ScienceApologist 00:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * To specify how many peer reviewed articles has has written on a specific subject, misleads on how many peer reviewed articles he has in total. I think this detail can always be clarified in the article proper. --Iantresman 09:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The last rewrite is much better and is acceptable to me. FloNight 10:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've put in a version of it, but I haven't referred to peer reviewed articles on the subject because it is not at all clear to me what he has actually had published on this subject in peer-reviewed journals. I do not want to give the wrong impression, e.g. we don't want to give the impression that he's had a significant number of peer reviewed articles on plasma cosmology if (as it seems) that is not the case. If people want to debate this a bit further, though, that seems fine. Metamagician3000 10:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If the articles in peer-reviewed journals are not on plasma cosmology then it should not be mentioned in the lead. Sorry for the confusion. From Ian's comments below I thought that they were. I'm not familiar with these journals to know which are exclusively peer-reviewed and which contained a mixture of articles and such. --FloNight 10:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup, I think we need some help with this from our group of experts. No slight intended to you in leaving that part out, but it's just not very clear ... at least to me. Metamagician3000 11:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It is verifiable that Lerner is the author of around 50 peer reviewed articles on various subjects . Since one of the criteria for reliable sources is where an individual publishes, this adds to his general credibility. Certainly it is more credible than an individual with no peer reviewed paper, and just spouting ideas on a blog.
 * I think that the following peer-reviewed articles by Lerner are related to plasma cosmology:
 * So I think that mentioning "together with peer reviewed article" is an ample description. But perhaps we should take on board ScienceApologist's suggestion to give the number, and mention that Lerner has "over half a dozen peer reviewed article" --Iantresman 11:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

There's no doubt that Lerner has published criticisms of the Big Bang in reserach journals. However, most of these publications are from a time in the 1990s when there was something of a minor crisis in cosmology. Today, Lerner doesn't seem to publish in the astrophysics journals nearly as much and the number of cosmology articles in general has been increasing on an exponential curve. I think it would be fair to say that most of Eric's criticism was made in the early to mid nineties and since then he has been less successful in publishing in mainstream, peer-reviewed journals. --ScienceApologist 12:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

There is another, editorial reason for excluding comments regarding peer review from the lead and that is the fact that Eric is not particularly known for his peer reviewed contributions. Eric is known for his popular science book. We can mention the fact that he has published peer reviewed articles later in the article, but as of right now we exclude critical comment (except to say his cosmology is non-mainstream and alternative) so we shouldn't unduly weight the accolades (such as trumpeting his dozen peer-reviewed publications about cosmology that have happened over the last twenty years). --ScienceApologist 12:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you misunderstand undue weight. If I include in the introduction a whole paragraph to Lerner's 50-ish peer-reviwed papers, then you could rightly suggest that undue weight had been given to the fact. On the other hand, using FOUR WORDS to mention that he has peer reviewed articles, I think is quite restrained.
 * And since people might not know Eric for having peer reviewed papers to his name, I would like to suggest something very bold: We pretend that we are an encyclopedia, and teach people something they may not have known.
 * That you and other have considered Lerner's field of science to be pseudoscience, that others have considered much less of him, I think demonstrates the need to balance this inaccurate view, with the verifiable facts. --Iantresman 14:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying completely omit Eric's peer review papers from the article: I'm merely suggesting the lead may not be the best place for them. --ScienceApologist 17:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Under the circumstances (a) the misunderstanding that Lerner, or his field of study is pseudoscience (b) that he is mostly known for just a popular book, I think it is an informative and fair use of four words. --Iantresman 20:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't help but feel that you are insisting on this in order to support your campaign to paint Eric's research as having a veneer of legitimacy that can only be evaluated as an opinion not fact. You are also suggesting that Eric is somehow known for his peer review papers when this does not seem to be the case. --ScienceApologist 22:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You feel wrong. His peer reviewed papers suggest that he is not a pseudoscentists, nor just known for a popular book. A fair clarification to state. And accurate. And verifiable. And not unreasonable for someone with about 50 peer reviewed papers under his belt. --Iantresman 00:47, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The peer-review wording should not go in the lead since the journal articles are from the 80's and 90's. Later in the article, we can work out some wording that accurately reflects the importance of decade old articles that were published in peer-reviewed journals. --FloNight 01:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So let's take our iniitiative from another scientists's biography, Carl Sagan. His introduction mentions that "Throughout his career he wrote more than 400 published scientific and popular articles".
 * So let's replace the peer reviewed information, and substitute "throughout his career, Lerner has written more than 600 published scientific and popular article." [Refs:   ]  --Iantresman 09:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The difference is that Carl was noted for his variety of writtent publications. Eric is noted for his book criticizing the Big Bang. --ScienceApologist 12:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Even though the page on notability is a proposal, it mentions that "importance .. for practical purposes .. can be considered synonymous"; as described above, Lerner's writing credits are important... especially if you are a scientific writer, and misunderstood by some to be a pseudoscientist. --Iantresman 14:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The written work Lerner is most known for and therefore is most important is his book. --ScienceApologist 15:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * From the point of view of cosmologists, this may be the case. But from the point of view of people who read his articles they may be most notable, from scientist involved in fusion, Lerner may be most notable for his plasma focus device research. And from a writing point of view, his 600+ articles are important, and double so, to balance the misconception of pseudoscience. --Iantresman 16:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We can report that he is a science journalist in the opening if you'd like since we can verify that. We can also report that his Laboratory promotes a plasma focus device since that is verifiable. But "balancing" a "misconception" is not what WP:NPOV is about. Neturality does not mean "correcting" perceived slights. --ScienceApologist 16:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Correcting a misconception is a desirable secondary efffect, of stating Eric's writing achievements. The primary function is to state neutrally a verifiable fact, that Eric has indeed written over 600+ scientific and popular articles. It shows that Eric is not just an occassional writer with a couple of lucky breaks, nor just a one-hit wonder with a single book, nor just a science journalist, nor a writer not unfamiliar with peer-reviewed. --Iantresman 18:09, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, we aren't saying we can't mention Eric's publications, but we are saying that it doesn't belong in the intro. I'll remind you that this is a "misconception" in your opinion. It isn't a verifiable fact that this is a misconception. --ScienceApologist 18:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * User:JBKramer and yourself both questioned whether Eric's work or field of study, was pseudoscience . You had previous tagged the article on Eric's field of study, Plasma cosmology as pseudoscience . Unless you have a reliable source noting otherwise, I'd say that you both had a misconception. I note that the subject area is not listed in the article on pseudoscience.
 * Eric is much more than a writer of just one popular science book, and his 600+ scientific and popular articles are important, notable and relevent. --Iantresman 19:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I note that The Space Show has a short paragraph on Eric Lerner, and they consider it important enough to mention that he is the author of 600 articles,

Neither my opinion, nor JBKramer's opinion, not your opinion, nor Eric's opinion about whether there is a "the misconception of pseudoscience" is verifiable nor is it a standard that should be used to determine how to edit the article since reasonable editors here disagree about the correctness of this assertion. I doubt that The Space Show's treatment of subjects is notable enough to influence our editting here at Wikipedia, though we can use it as a datapoint in our discussions. I disagree that Eric's papers and articles are notable and relevant. Perhaps you'd like to show a citation analysis of his work to show this? --ScienceApologist 22:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it is quite clear that we have an impasse. Carl Sagan's "400 published scientific and popular articles" are notable enough to appear in his intro, but Eric Lerner's "600 published scientific and popular articles" are not. Carl Sagan's list of awards is notable, Lerner's awards are not.
 * I presume that if Eric's scientific and popular papers, awards, and scientific activities are not notable enought to mention in the introduction, there's no problems describing them in the article proper? --Iantresman 00:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Describing them in the article is fine, as long as we avoid the laundry lists and cruft Eric had inserted to pad the article with attempts to legitimatize his work. --ScienceApologist 01:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Laundry lists like Carl Sagan's list of awards, and list of Related books and media? --Iantresman 09:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Cruft like Carl Sagan and UFOs? --Iantresman 09:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you have issues with Carl Sagan's article, bring them up over there. This is the article about Eric Lerner. --ScienceApologist 15:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Where did I mention issues with Carl Sagan's article? I'm asking you whether lists such as the ones that appear in Carl Sagan's article are suitable in Eric's article? --Iantresman 16:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you don't have issues with Carl Sagan's article being different than this article than stop making comparisons. I see the two articles as very different. Carl Sagan should be treated differently than Eric Lerner. --ScienceApologist 17:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Silly me, and there I was treating each subject with equal respect and application of the Wikipedia policy. --Iantresman 19:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It is pretty silly of you to assume that every subject should be treated precisely the same. If that was the goal of Wikipedia, we could write a program that would write all the articles. --ScienceApologist 22:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Only you could read what I actually said, and distort it. --Iantresman 13:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

So here's a version without mention of peer review:

--Iantresman 13:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

How about

--ScienceApologist 14:20, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks OK, well done. Only 100 more sentences to go. --Iantresman 18:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And we might want to change his date of birth to do just "1947" as I can't see any advantage of having the full date, and there is a potential privacy issue. --Iantresman 18:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Distictions between controversial and kooky

 * SA uses the term “marginalized” to blur together very different categories. In SA’s mind, as is clear from his edits and comments both on this page and on many others, “controversial” in science is the same as “discredited pseudoscience.” In his view, anyone with a viewpoint that is in the minority in a field is not only wrong, but not even a scientist.


 * I hope that I don’t have to convince the other editors that this is an attitude that is completely inimical to the scientific enterprise. While many minority viewpoints in science eventually die away, it is equally obvious that almost everything that science has eventually verified was once a minority viewpoint.


 * No one would doubt that my work in cosmology is controversial. But it would be entirely inaccurate to claim, as SA does, that it is either ignored in the astronomical community or treated as outside the realm of scientific debate.


 * SA’s edits of my page have systematically aimed to create the false impression that no one in the community takes my work seriously, that I should be grouped with someone like ,say, Velikovsky. For that reason he has eliminated references to my peer-reviewed publications, to leading academic institutions where I have been invited to present my work and to my stay at ESO as a Visiting Astronomer.


 * SA’s extreme bias is illustrated, among many other ways, by his repeated characterization of IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science, a journal of the world’s largest technical society, as a “marginal publication”. That journal, by the way, regularly publishes special issues devoted to cosmology and astrophysics. I have also published in such well-known astrophysical periodicals as The Astrophysical Journal and Astrophysics and Space Science. All are peer-reviewed.


 * That is why it is entirely appropriate to put back in the paragraph about where I have published and spoken and the coverage of my work in leading popular since magazines like New Scientist and Sky and Telescope. As Art Carlson says, such information allows the reader to judge how my view are regarded and to make distinctions between “controversial” and “kooky”, distinctions that SA denies exist.


 * I do NOT agree with the Visiting Astronomer sentence as it is, although it is an improvement. It implies that there was something out-of-the-ordinary, and therefore worth noting, in the fact that Scarpa was the one who proposed that I be invited. The system at ESO is that you are invited to ESO to do joint research with a specific scientist there, the one who makes the proposal to the Selection Committee. I was invited to work with Scarpa, just as anyone else is invited to work with someone who is close to them in the field.


 * A factually correct sentence would be this: “In 2006, he was a Visiting Astronomer at the European Southern Observatory, carrying out research with Riccardo Scarpa and others on the surface brightness of galaxies, a key test of the Big Bang theory.”


 * I request that metamagician or some other admin change the sentence to read this way.Elerner
 * No, I think the current wording is fine. --FloNight 15:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do you think that? By the way, instigation means to incite, goad or provoke, according to Webster, so is not a correct verb unless you want to imply my being a Visitng Astronomer was some sort of crime. " on the proposal of " would be correct. Also the sentence still does not actually say that I WAS a Visiting Astronomer, merely that I was invited to be. Invitations are not always accepted.Elerner 15:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "In 2006 he was invited, at the instigation of fellow Big Bang critic and MOND enthusiast Riccardo Scarpa, to be a Visiting Astronomer at the European Southern Observatory in Chile.[4]"


 * I agree, "instigation" is the wrong verb, and unsubstantiated. "To be" is the wrong tense, where as "he was" is accurate. And it would make sense to explain the reason he was invited, ie. the work Eric carried out there, which would be raison d'etre for the visit. --Iantresman 17:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "In 2006 he was invited, at the request of fellow Big Bang critic and MOND enthusiast Riccardo Scarpa, to be a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory in Chile.[4]"

I think this is better. Also "Visiting Astronomer" probably shouldn't be capitalized. --ScienceApologist 17:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It still does not say that I was a visiting astronomer. What is the relevance of MOND anyway? Any "heresy" is bad? I've never actually written about MOND myself, so what's the connection? If SA is so fond of the phrase "fellow big bang critic" how about" In 2006, he was a Visiting Astronomer at the European Southern Observatory, carrying out research with fellow Big Bang critic Riccardo Scarpa and others on the surface brightness of galaxies, a key test of the Big Bang theory."?Elerner 17:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, this is the page that describes the ESO Senior Visitors program. http://www.sc.eso.org/%7Echummel/svp/svp.html Elerner 18:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

So, this corrects the tense, and removes the irrelevant MOND tag. Scarpa's home page also says he's interested in AGN synchrotron jets, but again it's not relevant, and has nothing to do with Eric:
 * "In 2006 he was a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory in Chile.[4]", invited by fellow Big Bang critic Riccardo Scarpa".

--Iantresman 18:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

My two cents: I think Joshua is reading too much into the fact that Scarpa submitted the proposal to invite Lerner. More interesting is what they worked on during that time, though it is not so important for the article. (If Joshua or anyone else is worried about giving Big-Bang-Bangers too much good press, it would be better to keep mum that one of the heretics has a position at the ESO.) --Art Carlson 19:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Which brings us closer to Eric's proposal:
 * In 2006, he was a visiting astronomer at the European Southern Observatory, invited by fellow Big Bang critic Riccardo Scarpa. With Scarpa and others, Lerner continued his research about the surface brightness of galaxies as a test of the Big Bang theory." --Iantresman 21:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I tweaked the wording ever-so-slightly. Anyone mind? --ScienceApologist 00:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I capitalised "Visting Astronomer" because Eric (sorry about the informality, but it's getting too difficult any other way) did at one point and it sounded like it was a formal title used at the institution rather than just a two-word common noun. I don't really care, myself, about that. I'm also not in love with the word "instigation" but I don't think it has the dire connotations Eric suggests. If some other word ("initiative"? "recommendation"?) is better, well fine. The word "invited" does not seem to be correct, because the formal invitation came from someone else, as has been demonstated. However, I'm not going to take out the reference to Scarpa. I still think it is useful and not especially damaging. I don;t understand the problem with "to be". The tense is accurate - he was, indeed, invited to be a visiting astronomer: at the time of the invitation, it was in the future. We may need another sentence at some point to make clear that he is not still there, but I don't the article as a whole currently gives that impression. A visiting position is by definition something that happens for a fairly short time. I'm also not sure I understand Eric's point when he complains that it still doesn't say he was a visiting astronomer. I thought it was implicit that the invitation was accepted. Oh well, I guess I can modify it to make that explicit. I'm not going to do anything else while you're all talking about. So - keep talking, people. I can't quite work out how close you all are to agreement on this point. Metamagician3000 01:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Answer's defintion of instigation:

"In·sti·ga·tion n.

[L. instigatio: cf. F. instigation.] The act of instigating, or the state of being instigated; incitement; esp. to evil or wickedness.

The baseness and villainy that. . . the instigation of the devil could bring the sons of men to."


 * Can we maybe have a response to the other points--that is SA's deletion of Van Allen's quote, the two paragraphs about my recent activites and SA's addition of two or three negetive quotes? Any comments, metamagician?Elerner 01:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

We really need you guys to try to sort it out for yourselves as much as possible. It does seem, meanwhle, that "instigation" was not the best word - it does often have that connotation of something bad, like crime or trouble. My mistake, with that word choice. I'll make some sort of change. Metamagician3000 05:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I did think it was fair enough to put in the Van Allen back-cover blurb and to refactor some other phrasing to make it NPOV. However, I think it's necessary to say explicitly that the general view of the scientific community has been critical. Not sure about the rest. Maybe some other admins would like to comment. Or we could just get comments from others involved in the discussion. Metamagician3000 05:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

There is some issue of the late Van Allen not being active in the cosmological research community at the time he wrote the quote or really ever. While a respected space scientist, his skepticism of the Big Bang didn't seem to arise so much out of research but out of the general polarized climate of the 1950s with respect to cosmology. --ScienceApologist 12:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The Scientific Community

 * Is it accurate to assume the "general view of the 'scientific community'" based on half a dozen critical reports (half of which are blog enties). I think it is more accurate to describe "some members of the scientific community", and perhaps note that none of them are peer reviewed.
 * I note that the "Open Letter" seems to show solidarity on Big Bang criticism and consideration of Plasma cosmology (Lerner's field of research), from 200+ named scientists and engineer, including Lerner. These people are also part of the "scientific community".
 * --Iantresman 07:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a safe bet that very few archaeologists, neurologists, or mycologists know or care anything about Eric Lerner. Even the majority of professional cosmologists seem to be more "sharply indifferent" than "sharply critical". How about something along the lines of "The ideas in the book have, however, received sharp criticism from cosmologists."? (You could always add some "some"s, but it is not really necessary, since I didn't say "all".) How would the Brittanica handle this? --Art Carlson 08:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds OK. Personally I think Britannica would exclude all the quotes as they are selective and out of context.
 * I also think the quotes should be divided into positive and negative sections. --Iantresman 09:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We could also try "Those cosmologists who have responded to his theses have been highly critical." --Art Carlson 13:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Closer, but not quite. I think the sense we are trying to approach would be closer to "Cosmologists in general have been highly critical to his theses." Many of the people who have "responded" might argue that they are "cosmologists" (as per the last alternative cosmology conference held in Portugal). This is a demarcation problem that comes up deciding who is and isn't a cosmologist. Really dicey issues. --ScienceApologist 17:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

SA might have some better words, but it's no good anyone trying to sugarcoat the bitter pill that the relevant sub-set of the mainstream scientific community in whatever field we call it (cosmology, perhaps) has been ... um ... unreceptive-cum-hostile. Or if you dispute this, you may have a real problem on your hands that will have to be settled through some means more formal than a couple of admins floating around. Metamagician3000 10:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't dispute the criticism. I disputed that half a dozen cosmologists represent the "scientific community", especially when Lerner and 200+ other scientists seem to be sympathetic with criticism of the Big Bang --Iantresman 11:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ian, most of those 200+ "other scientists" are not cosmologists. --ScienceApologist 11:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So you agree that where the article says "the response of the scientific community...", is inaccurate because cosmologists form a minority of scientist. And presumably only a minority of cosmologist commented. In other words, half a dozen members of the scientific community (or cosmologists) responded. --Iantresman 13:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, normally the scientific community defers to its expert members for evaluation of controversy. This deference enables the scientific community to avoid being dragged through endless squabbles and debates. So your characterization may be splitting hairs a bit too finely. --ScienceApologist 13:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

We also should make it clear that the scientific community is broader than the astrophysics community which is broader than the cosmology community. I think toleration of Eric's ideas tend to get less and less as you move from broader to narrower communities. The scientists the most familiar with cosmology tend to be the ones most critical of Eric. --ScienceApologist 12:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've said it before, let me say it again: I don't support statements about "the response of the scientific community" at all, unless we have sources for it, not examples, by which I mean someone actually saying, in a published forum, what "the response of the scientific community" has been, as opposed to just giving their own response. Why?  Because with only examples, we'd be making "new analysis or synthesis of published arguments" which is in direct violation of WP:OR.  Look, I'm not saying it's inaccurate.  But don't you think maybe this is one of those issues where only time will really tell the story?  I mean, I'm not in this area, but for all we know, work that followed Lerner's could become important someday.  Or, possibly more likely, when in 30 years nothing has come of it, enough of a picture of the reception of this work will have formed that someone may actually publish something about it.  Until someone writes a book about Plasma Physics and/or Lerner, we're doing work no one else has done, and Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought.  Mango juice talk 17:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Since the “Visiting Astronomer” issue has been resolved, I will leave my page in the hands of others, so long as similar issues don’t again emerge.


 * Some comments in parting:


 * While I have not taken statistically valid polls, it is obvious to anyone in physics or astronomy that overwhelming support for the Big Bang theory, and therefore overwhelming hostility to critics like me, is pretty much limited to cosmologists themselves. The vast majority of these cosmologists are theoreticians who have devoted their careers to the Big Bang theory. So while they are well-informed, they are scarcely unbiased.


 * If you talk to astronomers who are not cosmologists, skepticism of the Big Bang is widespread, quite a large minority. I certainly saw that at ESO. If you go farther field to physicists who are not astrophysicists, for example plasma physicists, support for the Big Bang, I think, drops to a strong minority. There is a lot of scorn among physicists for cosmologists’ introduction of hypothetical entities—dark matter and dark energy—which are unsupported by, or even contradicted by, laboratory results.


 * So it would be very inaccurate and certainly, as Mangojuice points out, very unverifiable to refer to the views of the “scientific community” as opposed to “most cosmologists” or even “the great majority of cosmologists”.  If we were to limit the page to what is verifiable it would have to be "many more cosmologists oppose his views than support them" since obviously "most cosmologists" have not expressed a view on my work.


 * I think that the inclusion of six long critical quotes in my page is totally biased. By the way, the two positive quotes are still included in “critics”, which is remarkably deceptive and biased. A casual reader would conclude that Van Allen is a critic of my book rather than a supporter. The two positive quotes should be moved to another section, or the whole section should be renamed “debate on Lerner’s ideas”.


 * As to the six long critical quotes, they are very unusual for Wikipedia. If you look at, for example, Halton Arp’s page, there are no critical quotes, although the page states plainly in a single sentence that “Very few astronomers today accept any of Arp’s hypotheses on QSO’s or galactic redshifts.” A single sentence on Arp’s page vs. six long quotes in my page seems hardly consistent. It is perfectly appropriate to say that my views are not supported by “most cosmologists”. But having the great majority of my page being quotes from critics is hardly NPOV.


 * Finally, I still have heard no arguments from any of the admins on why the two paragraphs on where I have presented my views, including in peer-reviewed papers, should be entirely omitted. To say that this is too detailed information about me, but that long, repetitive quotes from my critics are not too detailed is clearly biased.


 * No admin has said that. Remember that the protected version of the article is expressly not endorsed by the admins or by Wikipedia. We don't try to identify the "right" version to protect. A couple of us have been stretching a point by trying to help settle a few especially contentious things while the article is protected, to address what seem to be some of your most pressing concerns. That doesn't mean we endorse the inclusion or omission of anything else. In the end, the editors on this article need to sort out for themselves how their content disputes will be resolved. There's a limit to what individual admins can do to help out. Personally, I think that some of the material you mention should be included at the end of the day, but that is just a personal view, and I'm not prepared to create my own preferred version of the article while it is protected. What I really want to see is enough agreement on process to justify lifting the protection. I.e., if we lift the protection, how can we be sure that it won't just turn into another revert war (as has happened in the past when protection has been lifted)? Metamagician3000 01:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I also note that, quite a while back, the paragraph about my very extensive science journalism ( over 600 articles) and my journalism awards were also eliminated by SA, which simply distorts who I am. While my science writing by itself does not merit a wiki entry for me, omitting it is a distortion.


 * Have fun, all. I have some research to do.Elerner 18:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL at "[among] physicists who are not astrophysicists ... support for the Big Bang ... drops to a strong minority." In addition to not being true, such a statement is a demonstration that describing the above commentor as a scientist is idiocy. Science is done by experts, not by consensus. There is none so blind, as he who refuses to see. JBKramer 18:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's great, can you provide the source confirming this. --Iantresman 20:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Cites
Citation is required for the following facts:


 * 1) (b. 31 May 1947, Brookline, MA.)
 * 2) Lerner received a BA in Physics from Columbia University
 * 3) did graduate work in physics at the University of Maryland, College Park
 * 4) veteran of the 1965 Selma March and the 1968 Columbia Student Strike. He is a member of the NJ Civil Rights Defense Committee, and Workers Democracy Network.
 * 5) Lerner has done experimental work on the plasma focus in collaboration with the University of Illinois in 1994, with Texas A&M University in 2001 and with the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission.

This is not NPOV:
 * 1) showing that this effect could make net energy production more feasible, potentially leading to an economical and safe source of energy.

JBKramer 18:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * JBKramer, I'd be curious know why you've requested sources for Lerner's date of birth, for example, but not of Reggie Bush, whose article you edited a few days ago? --Iantresman 20:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I direct you to dick. Please provide sources for the requested information. Thanks! JBKramer 14:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's a fair question. I know no other biography where a date of birth has a citation, so I'm curious why the apparent special case for Eric Lerner? --Iantresman 18:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you would like to object to another biography, please object to them there. JBKramer 19:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * PS: . JBKramer 19:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no objection to the lack of citation in all the other Wikipedia biographies, and I suspect you've never asked for a birth day citation in other articles either. So it begs the question. Depending on your answer, we can go out of way and find a citation, or remove it all together. But asking for your reason seems fair.
 * PS. --Iantresman 20:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Please provide citations for all of the requested facts or they might be removed by any editor that cares about WP:V more than MPOV. Thanks. JBKramer 01:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I quite understand the need for citations, and that statements may be removed without them. I still wonder why you've asked for a citatation for a birth date on Lerner's biography, but no-one else's. --Iantresman 08:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that some of these citations are attributed directly to Eric Lerner himself. --Iantresman 09:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) (b. 31 May 1947, Brookline, MA.)
 * 2) Lerner received a BA in Physics from Columbia University (1968), [Op cit]
 * 3) did graduate work in physics at the University of Maryland, College Park [op cit]
 * 4) veteran of the 1965 Selma March and the 1968 Columbia Student Strike. He is a member of the NJ Civil Rights Defense Committee, and Workers Democracy Network.
 * 5) Lerner has done experimental work on the plasma focus in collaboration with the University of Illinois in 1994, with Texas A&M University in 2001 and with the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission.

Your citation for his birthdate, his BA, and his graduate work does not appear to support such. Could you direct me more specifically to where that paper mentions his birthdate, his BA and his graduate work? Quotes would be fine. Since I do not believe we consider Lerner to be a fully reliable source regarding himself, I believe the cite regarding his civil rights actions requires an "According to Lerner," as does his locational work on plasma focus. There is no independent verification of any of this? JBKramer 11:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The birth date info, BA and graduate can all be found at the end of the paper. Unfortunately, I do not believe it is online in full.
 * The dense plasma focus cite is on the Web site for the "Focus Fusion Society", I am sure that if you really wanted to, you could contact the Society, and/or other members, for corroboration.
 * The info on the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission can further be corroborated in this news item, and

--Iantresman 13:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you 100% certain that I will find that info at the end of the paper? If I fail to, after requesting the paper, You and I will both agree that you are a wholy unreliable source, right, and you'll stop editing this article forever?
 * The "Focus Fusion Society" is Eric Lerner and compatriots. It is not a reliable source, except that Eric Lerner can be used as a source about himself with appropriate notification. The PESN link is a press release from Eric Lerner. "The Space Show" is not a reliable source, and beyond that, is obviously written by Eric Lerner. The document at the NZ government is absurd on it's face "3.1.1) Hydrogen / Boron focus fusion technology:

There is planned development of this technology by Lawrenceville Plasma Physics Inc. in conjunction with the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission. Commercialization is projected by 2011/ 2012." Please source the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission saying they work with Mr. Lerner. JBKramer 13:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have purchased the article. The part referenced is not part of the peer reviewed text, and is Lerner's haiographic description of himself. While he is quite likley correct to his birthdate he is not a reliable source for degrees granted by Columbia University. Each time Eric Lerner is the sole source for facts about Eric Lerner, we must write "According to Lerner." Additionally, the listing of him as a "plasma physicist" will require that the source be cited ("described by his book publishers and librarian Gregory Sapp as a plasma physicist, but dismissed by the scientific community," for example). This article is clearly written without the skeptical tone required of pseudoscientists. Lerner's claims about himself are not true by definition, merely his claims. JBKramer 13:58, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "skeptical tone required of pseudoscientists"? --Iantresman 14:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I mean taking the claims of someone who makes extraordinary claims on their face as accurate is not the right act. JBKramer 15:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You means claims of his date of birth, and BA in Physics from Columbia University? --Iantresman 15:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I'll give him a pass on those. JBKramer 17:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * So help me here with some specifics. Which extraordinary claims, and which facts? --Iantresman 17:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Lawrenceville plasma physics
It is not appropriate for wikipedia to state that Lawrenceville plasma physics is a "technology research, consulting and communications firm," based only on it's say-so. JBKramer 14:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The introduction has been extensively discussed, and a version arrived at, see the end of the section "[ Introduction Proposal" above.


 * The biography at the end of the peer-reviewed article "Two World Systems Revisited: A Comparison of Plasma Cosmology and the Big Bang", published in the IEEE TRANSACTIONS ON PLASMA SCIENCE, VOL. 31, NO. 6, Dec 2003 tells us "Since 1974, he has been President of Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Lawrenceville, NJ, an independent research and consulting firm."


 * Since Wiki official policy on Biographies of living people suggests that we (a) may use the subject as a source, and (b) this is additioanlly corroborated in the peer reviewed source above, I see no problem in accepting Lawrenceville plasma physics as who they say they are; Unless you have any evidence whatsoever to suggest otherwise. --Iantresman 15:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The bio does not undergo peer review. WP:CCC. JBKramer 15:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The information just has to be verifiable (according to the policy Biographies of living people:
 * "The article should document, in a non-partisan manner, what reliable third party sources have published" (my emphasis).
 * As for consensus, I refer to my first comment above, where the introduction was extensively discussed. --Iantresman 15:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I further note that you have decided that Lerner is not a plasma physicist, but "often described as a plasma physicist", which appears to contradict verifiable third party sources, and discredit the person. Please note that Biographies of living people tells us that we should accept such information in good faith.
 * Lerner is described as a "plasma physicist" by Amazon Editorial Reviews, twice,. He also described as such on a NASA Web site, and at a conference . --Iantresman 15:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Which appears to me to be a statement that he is often described as one. He lacks formal training and an advanced degree. Also, stop with the primary sources. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - we prefer secondary sources. (s8int.com is not a reliable source) JBKramer 16:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you object to Eric Lerner being labelled a "plasma physicist"? --Iantresman 18:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe in accuracy in all things, including the credentials of individuals. While the definition of scientist is not set in stone, Mr. Lerner does not unambigiuously and clearly reach such a definition - to do so would require, minimially, that he have an advanced degree and that he be engaged in meaningful scientific research. There is no evidence of the first, and little evidence of the second. JBKramer 18:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thinking more on this, there is no need to get into the dispute regarding his status as a physicist or not. JBKramer 18:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's exactly the dispute. And to remove the label is equally inaccurate.
 * You stated that to "qualify" as a physicist an advanced degree is required, yet the Wiki article on physicist mentions "A physicist is a scientist who studies or practices physics."(my emphasis). Lerner's peer reviewed articles demonstrates that he meets this requirement and your "engaged in meaningful scientific research." --Iantresman 19:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Here are some more sources describing "Physicist", none of which conform to your definition. --Iantresman 19:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Of your presented definitions, Mr. Lerner fails a number - he may or may not be "a scientist..." He is likley not "an expert in physics." He is not "trained in physics" nor does he have "a doctoral degree." Lerner's work does not unambiguously meet my "engaged in meaningful scientific research" test. It is imperitive that we recognize that Lerner's research has not generated a substantal (honestly, any) body of knowledge, nor has it been built on by others, nor has it generated meaningful predicitions, nor practical applications. JBKramer 19:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If he's a physicist, then he's a scientist?
 * How shall we assess "expert in physics"?
 * If he's "not trained in physics", what do you think he studied for his B.A.?
 * A doctorate is not a requirement to be a physicist
 * Since when are YOU the artbiter of "meaningful scientific research"? His work certainly seemed meaningful enough to generate 50 peer reviewed articles.
 * --Iantresman 20:17, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * All physicists are scientists. Not all scientists are physicists.
 * I am happy to evalute soley his understanding of the big bang theory as explained in his book to determine his level of expertise in physics.
 * A BA is not training in physics, it's a meaningless undergraduate degree. A BA in physics requires what, one class in quantum, one class in electrodynamics?
 * A doctorate is one of your listed criteria.
 * I'm the arbiter of meaningful as an editor here - and specifically, not a single purpose editor, but rather one with edits across a variety of topics. He has not published substantially for 10 years, and prior to that, his publication record is "poor" to say the best. The vast majority of those article are not cited by anyone except for co-plasma cosmologists. JBKramer 20:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Beyond that, your list of citations is questionable - specifically, your search includes this, which was published in Ohio when Mr. Lerner was 19. How many of the papers you attribute to Mr. Lerner are actually attributable to Dr. Eugenio Lerner? JBKramer 20:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I should think that most physicists (eg. those in industry) haven't published anything at all. And let's hope that none of them publish anything controversial, because it's the only thing they'll be judged on... that and whether they have a doctorate. And we all know that citation from other co-plasma cosmologists are worth nothing. --Iantresman 21:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And yes, some of the papers I listed are attributed to be Dr. Eugenio Lerner. Those attributed to Eric are shown as "Lerner, E J." or "Lerner, Eric J.". More recent papers, that haven't gone through peer review are shown here --Iantresman 21:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Gregg Sapp?
Should Gregg Sapp's comments to the library journal be included after we claim to be talking about his general reception in the scientific community? --ScienceApologist 20:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think that most of the quotes should go.
 * They are all highly selective and taken out of context.
 * None are peer reviewed
 * The article is primarily about Eric Lerner the person, not about criticism of his book


 * It would be sufficient to say that his book has received much criticism, and include links the blogs in a footnote. --Iantresman 21:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Which quotes are taken out of context?
 * Why should a non-peer reviewed books be subject only to peer-review criticism?
 * I'd point out that some of the quotes are criticisms of Eric Lerner the person. Penzias and Carroll in particular are criticizing Lerner himself and not his book. --ScienceApologist 19:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Reception of Lerner's Ideas
I recently reverted ScienceApologist's change of the text about the source of the positive reviews. Look, guys, those positive reviews are positive reviews, period, from important people. We can't disparage them just because the publisher sought them! That's not a neutral presentation at all. And as to whether the publisher promoted them, yes, they sure did, it's standard practice, but pointing to Amazon's list of reviews as a source ... that's original research there. If we can't simply present both types of reviews without bias towards one or the other, we should not describe the reviews period. Mango juice talk 13:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that the one source from Amazon is not a customer-submitted references, but an editorial review attributed to the Chicago Times, which I believe is a reliable source; it's just that Amazon is an online source that re-publishes it. I feel that a popular newspaper commenting on a popular book, is adequate. --Iantresman 14:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Amazon publishes reviews provided by the publisher. In this case, the publisher submitted only positive reviews. This is cited by the reference in question and by Amazon.com's policy on publisher's ability to submit editorial review for inclusion on the page devoted to selling the book. Therefore, since the information is relevant and verified, I am including it. --ScienceApologist 17:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Neither presentation was neutral. SA, I believe, was overly critical. Mango was overly positive. As such, I have reported, accurately, that the book recieved varying reviews. This noncomittal language, while not as concrete as "The book recieved no positive reviews outside of ones solicited by the publisher and those from non-scientists," which appears to be accurate, is, at the very least, verifiable. JBKramer 18:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict, response to SA) The real problem here, as I pointed out in my talk comment, is the POV issue. Publishers usually only submit positive reviews, that's normal.  Go look at the Amazon page for "A Brief History of Time" and you'll notice the same kind of thing.  It's universal.  The text is very biased with that statement there, though, because when you read it you get the impression that the authors of the page think that the positive reviews can't simply be presented, but have to be qualified.  And BTW, it's not really relevant to anything that publisher promoted the positive comments the book got: that is, again, normal for every book.  I have no objection to the wording "varied reviews."  Mango juice talk 18:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * ScienceApologist, The criticism is the use of language. The two positive reviews are described, in my opinion, disparagingly. For example,
 * The positive reviews are described as if they were promotion material, and are "few".
 * Yet the negative reviews, of which there are five, three of which being self-published blogs, are described as "the general response of the scientific community"
 * JBKramer, I have no evidence to suggest that the publishers solicited the review from the Chicago Times. --Iantresman 18:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You also have not read the review from the Chicago Times - just a snippet published on the back cover of the book, right? JBKramer 18:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That is correct, I've only read the extracted highlight on the Amazon site. And if I can see an original review in full, I'd be happy to amend the description --Iantresman 19:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Related but different question
Is Gregg Sapp's review on the back of the book? I can't get to the library right now to check. --ScienceApologist 18:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * My version of the book has no reviews on the back cover, nor anywhere else; perhaps it was published before any reviews became available. --Iantresman 19:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Not even the Van Allen review? --ScienceApologist 12:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Correct. None. Different editions, different countries, different text. --Iantresman 12:31, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * All righty, then. This requires some research. We should probably ammend the text on the front to indicate that Van Allen's review is only printed on some editions. --ScienceApologist 12:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, not such a great mystery. The softcover edition does not have a jacket, so it does not have the quote.  The hard cover edition, which of course was published first, has the quote.Elerner 17:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Paul Davies suggestion
Paul Davies puts Eric's book in context in his book About Time: Einstein's Unfinished Revolution on page 152:


 * While the debate over discrepant red shifts rumbled on, other odd bits of evidence kept cropping up that challenged the orthodox big-bang theory, such as the discovery of more objects that seemed to be older than thte universe, and some curious observations that suggested a large-scale periodicity in the distribution of galaxies. The accumulating difficulties prompted American physicist Eric Lerner to write a book provactively titled The Big Bang Never Happened, published in late 1991. A few months later, the COBE ripples were discovered, and suddenly the big-bang theory was firmly back on track.

--ScienceApologist 18:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a valid viewpoint. But just because observations and discoveries are consistent with the Big Bang, says nothing about Plasma cosmology. But this is not the place to debate it. --Iantresman 18:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it provides an important context and support for the points above that Lerner obtained "flash-in-the-pan" celebrity status during the worrisome late 80s early 90s before the anisotropies were discovered in the COBE spectrum. Whether it belongs in this article or not is debatable. It may be reasonable to include this and other reporting of Davies regarding these matters on the nonstandard cosmology page, however. We are currently rewriting that bit anyway and it looks like Davies lumping of plasma cosmology with redshift controversies in contemporaneous terms makes sense from the historical development of the subject. --ScienceApologist 19:38, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The timing of the COBE results can't possibly have any influence on the reception of Lerner's book, it's an independent event. From what I can gather, the book is still in print, and the recent Conference on Cosmology  is part of the legacy of his book. Is that a consideration for including in the article? --Iantresman 20:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * What you or I think is irrelevant. Paul Davies said that the COBE results did have an influence on the reception of the book. --ScienceApologist 00:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Reorganization
I think "The Big Bang Never Happened" should have its own section, and not be under "Reception of Lerner's Ideas" since it is just one aspect and product of his ideas. The reaction to the book is separate from the reaction to his other ideas and ongoing projects. Since this is a biography and not a compendium of book review reviews, more attention should be on Lerner's ideas than on others' opinions of his work. Too much focus has been placed on the interpretation of his ideas and not enough on his actual ideas. A section should be created on the book, with an outline of his ideas, and a smaller section on what others think of his ideas. It should be proportional. That is missing right now. Another section should be dedicated to his activities after the writing of the book.


 * Indeed, his book is just one string in his bow. --Iantresman 19:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Biographies of living people
JBKramer, Arthur Rubin and other editors. Please read the Wikipedia polikcy page on Biographies of living people:
 * "If the subject edits the article, it is of vital importance to assume good faith .."
 * "When information supplied by the subject conflicts with unsourced statements in the article, the unsourced statements should be removed"
 * ".. subjects of articles remain welcome to edit articles to correct inaccuracies, to remove inaccurate or unsourced material, or to remove libel." --Iantresman 07:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it doesn't say that. But, it wouldn't apply.  Here, the only source of the information is the subject.
 * "States" is neutral. "Claims" (which has been in the article before) is not.  I'm putting back "states" unless a reliable secondary source can be provided which is not under the control of the subject nor considered promotional material which is normally printed without comment (e.g.., the "about the author", even in peer-reviewed journal, is usually not vetted by the journal.)  If it gets reverted again, I'm going to remove the information entirely, as per WP:LIVING.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 12:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Whether the article says "Eric Lerner claims..." or "Eric Lerner states...", the implication is that you do not accept his word in good faith, as is implied in WP:LIVING. They are equally biased. Policy tells us that we are obliged to correct this, (it even overrides WP:3RR).
 * Removing the statement altogether to discrediting to Eric Lerner. The information is verifiable in the IEEE publication I provided, unless you can provide evidence to suggest that the IEEE publication is unreliable. Recall from WP:V that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." (my emphasis).
 * I am sure you will also have no problems finding a few other Wikipedian biographies of living people (a) Whose academic qualifications are verified, or (b) Uses your wording that attributes the information to the author. --Iantresman 13:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:LIVING states that we should accept the subject's word as editor in good faith, and accept it in favor of unsourced negative comments. It doesn't actually say we should accept the subject's word as subject in good faith, and it certainly doesn't say we should include the subject's word as "fact" unless contradicted by a WP:RS.
 * I don't know about IEEE publications, but all of my publications which have an "about the author" note took exactly what I submitted, includng one which had a typo in the name of the institution I was working at. (:-o) An article about the subject might be a WP:RS, but not an "about the author" note, even in a peer-reviewed, generally trusted, publication.
 * I'm sure I wouldn't have trouble finding a few (a)'s as to academic qualifications. For example, Andrew Wiles should have a New York Times article about him and his proof, which would have his academic qualifications.
 * As for WP:RS, in general, I have not requested inclusion of material in Arthur Rubin (such as the fact that I don't have a BS, but only a Ph.D.) which I would find difficult to find a reliable source for. If my employer mentioned such information, it would be a WP:RS, but he's the president.  If my alma mater mentioned such information, (with or without my permission), it would be a WP:RS.  My web site (if I had one) would not be a WP:RS, although it would mandate removal of statements in the article contradicting it.  My unsupported word would mandate removal of unsourced statements which I stated were incorrect, but would not even suggest that they be included.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 14:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Arthur, I'm still trying to figure out this dispute. Since you brough up your bio page, what is the source on that page for the fact that you have a Ph.D.?  Thanks, TheronJ 14:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Mathematics Genealogy Project, reference 2 at the present time in Arthur Rubin. It is partially self-submitted, (although I believe current submissions are made by universities as a matter of course) but it accepts removal requests if the absence of the degree can be properly sourced.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 14:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * As for why I'm insisting on this; I don't know. I think it is partially in reaction to the haigiography he originally submitted, which is not a good reason.  I will continue to insist that his civil rights activity be sourced, listed as self-described, or removed.  In any case, when Iantresman reverts, I'll suggest it to WP:AN/3RR. &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 15:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have two verifiable sources confirming Lerner's BA. But I have no relaible source verifying your claim, that Lerner stated (or provided) this information, only that it is plausible that he may have done. While I agree that is quite plausible, it is not verifable.
 * The onus was on me to provide verification for my wording, which I did. The onus is on you to provide a reliable source supporting your version of the wording. --Iantresman 16:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Verifiable (at least theoretically &mdash; the "about the author" information seems only to be available online to subscribers to the journal), but not reliable. The "about the author" note, even in a trusted journal, is rarely reviewed by the staff.  And EL is the president of the company, and there have been no sources presented that he does not completely control the company, so the company site is still EL, himself.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 16:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Verifiable is better than plausible. I look forward to your reliable source supporting your wording. --Iantresman 16:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's clear that the statements exist; hence they're verifiable. It's not likely that anyone other than the subject reviewed them, except for libel. See, for example WP:V:

Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources of information about themselves in articles about themselves, so long as:
 * It is relevant to the person's or organization's notability;
 * It is not contentious;
 * It is not unduly self-serving;
 * It does not involve claims about third parties, or about events not directly related to the subject;
 * There is no reasonable doubt about who wrote it.

I think the degrees may violate point 1 and/or 2, and the civil rights quotes would violate points 1, 3, and 4 without some caveat. &mdash; Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So you don't have any reliable sources supporting your statement that Lerner provided the information?
 * Or any reliable sources suggesting the information might be contentious. --Iantresman 17:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively:

Contact Columbia University, and see whether they will confirm Lerner's degree.
 * If the University confirms they have no record of it, then there is reason to suggest it is contentious.
 * If they won't confirm as a matter of policy/privacy, then we must assume that ANYBODY who has a degree from Columbia must have stated it themselves, and we should update all Wikipedia entries containing such information?
 * If they confirm, how can we verify it? Are emails or phone calls verifiable reliable sources? --Iantresman 18:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

As for the degrees: And it's contentious, because some people who have read his book doubt the author of that book could have passed elementary physics. Hence the assertion that he has a degree may slander Columbia University. &mdash; Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) http://www.lawrencevilleplasmaphysics.com/personnel.htm is essentially from EL himself, as he is president of Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Inc..
 * 2) http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1989ITPS...17..259L&db_key=AST&data_type=HTML&format=&high=44f6f4fbe315608 — aside from not being a valid reference, only being a pointer to an offline reference — assuming the reference is valid, "about the author" sections in peer-reviewed journals are rarely peer-reviewed.  The "about the author" section of his book might be acceptable, if it's from a reliable publisher.


 * I understand that you believe that Lerner provided the information for the Lawrenceville website, and it is plausible. And it's plausible that it hasn't been independently checked.
 * Likewise your speculation on his book.
 * So, so far, I still don't have any source that verifies your position. --Iantresman 19:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Nope. I'm saying that it's implausible that the Lawrenceville website wasn't edited and approved by Lerner, even if they got their information elsewhere, and it's implausible that IEEE would check the "about the author" note, whereever it came from.  Hence the first cite should just be consdered to be Lerner, and the second shouldn't be considered an WP:RS for any point of view. &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 20:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

reported at WP:BLP/Noticeboard
Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard &mdash; Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This discussion shows the absurd lengths people go to try to attack dissidents. My participation at Selma can be verified at The Civil Rights Veterans site.:http://www.crmvet.org/vet/vethome.htm#vets-l. All of the descriptions are self-submitted, but they are extremely easy to check and challenge. I noted, for example, that I went there with a small group of  students organized by Bill Strickland. If I was lying, it would be very easy to refute by, for example, asking Strickland. My degree is in a published source: Columbia Alumni Directory, p.211 1988 edition.(That happened to be the edition available.)


 * It is also important to note that my journalism work, including 600 published articles and several journalism awards, all verifiable, have been removed from the page as well.Elerner 19:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You could have posted this to the talk page earlier. I'll accept the Columbia Alumni Directory for the degree, accept http://www.crmvet.org as evidence that you said you were there (personal correspondce with Strickland is not allowable by us as editors), and I don't know what happened to your journalism work.  I don't think I had any objection to it, but I don't remember seeing it in the article. &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 20:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to test http://www.crmvet.org, because it would be unethical (some journalists have ethics, I suppose). I'm sure I could put myself in there if I wanted to, even though I wouldn't have been old enough to participate.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 20:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

states
We CANNOT imply his degree is fake by claiming he only "states" he has it. That is blatant libel, without proof. Adam Cuerden talk 12:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I heartily agree. I know we should be cautious in general when accepting information on a subject from the subject itself... but unless someone can point to specific instances of Lerner lying about his own credentials, or some other reason to actually doubt their authenticity, we should take Lerner's own biography as fact when it comes to basic details.  Weasel words here are clearly pushing a point of view, and they have to stop, right now.  Mango juice talk 12:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I see it the same way. --Art Carlson 12:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Does the same apply in "Lerner states he has done experimental work on the plasma focus in collaboration with the University of Illinois in 1994, with Texas A&M University in 2001 and with the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission." - I'm implied to think it does, unless someone can show that no papers involving him can be found.

I believe he reads this: Can you provide references for anything emerging from the collaborations? It would be helpful. Adam Cuerden talk 13:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Extraordinary claims require some sort of citation. I have removed all the colaborations untill such citation is provided. JBKramer 13:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * They don't seem particularly extraordinary, though. Adam Cuerden talk 14:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Alleging that major research insitutions are participating in serious collaborations with individuals with no academic standing who stand dramatically outside of the scientific mainstream and are in an alliance with Sterling D. Allan are extraordinary claims. JBKramer 14:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * How I am in an alliance with Allan? And what sort of slander is Kramer implying against Allan (who I do not personally know)? This sort of smear by implication, that Allan is some sort of demon is completely in keeping with the rest of Kramer's behavior and is unacceptable.Elerner 22:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I concur with JBKramer, and disagree that "states" is inappropriate if the only nominally WP:RS were likely to have been provided by the subject without review by the display. The college alumni directory is a WP:RS for his degree, even if not available offline, but the graduate work would have to be vetted by a reliable source.  Contrary to my previous post, I think he may have supplied a legitimate source for his being at Selma, even if primarily self-reported.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 14:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Weel, if it happened, I'm sure we'll have evidence soon - I've asked him if anypapers came out of it. Adam Cuerden talk 14:19, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I see no reason to not regard Lerner's own bio as a reliable source for these uncontroversial details of his life. I would not feel the same way about something Lerner wrote describing his own reception in the scientific community or his own importance.  Is there a specific reason to doubt the authenticity of this information?  WP:V does not require multiple independent source for every bit of information.  Mango juice talk 17:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I deleted the comment I wrote here as it violated WP:BLP. JBKramer 17:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Just a note to say that I have been subject to a 24-hour ban for violating 3RR, for reverting material I felt violated WP:LIVING and believed was exempt from 3RR. --Iantresman 19:54, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The work funded by JPL in collaboration with U. Of Illinois and Texas A &M is public record, like all government contracts. Just cite as public source JPL Contract 959962 for U of Illinois and JPL Contract 960283 for Texas A &M.


 * Paper from Texas experiment is
 * Prospects for P11B Fusion with the Dense Plasma Focus: New Results

Invited presentation, 5th Symposium "Current Trends in International Fusion Research: A Review" March 24-28, 2003, Washington, D.C http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0401126


 * Arxiv is used universally as a source.


 * For U of Illinois the results were published by JPL: Lerner, E.J., Peratt, A.L., Final Report, Jet Propulsion Laboratory contract 959962, 1995 (1995).


 * The fact that Kramer and SA continually delete and express skeptcism about simple facts shows thier deep bias.


 * The civil rights site should be an acceptable secondary source. If you accept my 1968 degree from Columbia, you can’t reject my participation in the Strike—the whole school participated in one way or another.So, in short, all the "he states" should be removed from this page.Elerner 22:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * These sources do not in any way support anything about Texas A&M or UoI. JBKramer 00:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The JPL contracts specifically mention that the work is to be performed at U of Illinois and Texas A &M. So the cited contracts do confirm the collaboration. Also the JPL fudning should be included and is confirmed by the contracts. But what has no citation is Bkamer's personal opinion that my work is ignored by maninstream scieentists. He should either get a verifiable citation for that or someone should remove all of his opinions.Elerner 01:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, actually, they do. "This research was funded in part by Jet Propulsion Laboratory and the Texas Engineering Experiment Station. The author thanks Bruce Freeman, Hank Oona, Alvin D. Luginbill, John C. Boydston, Jim M. Ferguson, and

Brent A. Lindeburg for their participation in the experiments and Paul Straight for his technical assistance. The author also thanks Paul Finman for a request that led to the work in section 5." - in short, it's kind of hard to see how it doesn't prove that he was intimately involved with Texas A&M (referenced constantly in that cite), unless you presume he fabricated the article out of whole cloth, or engaged in plagarism of someone else's.
 * Yes, it doesn't directly say "Eric Lerner worked with Texas A&M". But it does, nonetheless, demonstrate it clearly. Adam Cuerden talk 00:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So, he worked with Texas A&M because he thanked them? I'd like to thank Einstein for his participation in working with me on editing this article. JBKramer 00:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Right. Let's restore and cite up this article, then! It seems fairly obvious that the evidence is there - just have to, well, provide cites for everything. It should be easy enough. Adam Cuerden talk 22:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

...Actually, I found this earlier, but didn't realise its importance until the date clicked:Eric Lerner was on the Strike Education Committee This doesn't prove his Selma March participation, but given his high position in the strike, him confirming his position there, and, indeed, having understated his involvement, it must follow that the whole Civil Rights movement is proven. Adam Cuerden talk 22:28, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Adam, we had previously agreed to describe Lerner in the introduction as "a plasma physicist and science writer", while others disagreed. What kind of verification do you think would be suitable?


 * And so that Eric is not accused of bias, it might be worth him listed other items he feels should be included in the article, together with the necessary citations? For example, I believe he has:
 * Science writers awards?
 * Had published about 600 science-related articles?
 * Has had published nearly 50 peer reviwed articles?
 * A patent, " Method for desalination and fresh water recovery "

--Iantresman 22:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * As a first step, can someone dig up that New Scientist article, and possibly the letters pages in the two months following? It's a respected publication that would have checked the facts on him, and anything they missed would be picked up by their readers, if it's anything like today. Secondly, a list of all peer-reviewed research is easily cited - indeed, the information itself is a cite - and will confirm claims.
 * As well, I'd like to include a list of all peer-reviewed articles, either here or in the biography - it will make it easy to get a measure of his research, and showing that he has worked effectively in the field outside of the theory that makes him particularly notable - presuming he has, of course - would help give a more nuanced view. Certainly, if he has articles covering a range of plasma physics outside of his main theory, it's hard not to not name him as one. In short, go for the most convincing evidence first.
 * It is possible that he will be shown to mainly have worked on the theory that makes him notable. This might make him somewhat of a lesser scientist (unless shown right in future), but it does not mean he isn't one.
 * Lastly, any government grants for research? University sponsorship? Etc? The more orginisations related to his field funding him, the more notable his research. Of course we shouldn't stalk him! But if the orginisation he works for has deemed to tell, there's no harm in mentioning it.
 * Obviously, these could bog down the article if everything is mentioned, but they'd make for some excellent cites, and the rest can be archived on this talk page. Adam Cuerden talk 23:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Which New Scientist article? Do you mean the "Cosmology" letter which Lerner, and other scientists co-signed concerning their views on cosmology, and subsequently signed by several hundred other scientists and engineers? --Iantresman 23:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Bucking the big bang". New Scientist. Vol. 182, no. 2448, pp. 20. 22 May 2004.  Adam Cuerden talk 23:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, it is the one reproduced at here, which does seem at odds with the statement in the article in the section "Reception of Lerner's ideas" which reads "Lerner's ideas have largely been ignored by most astronomers and cosmologists." --Iantresman 00:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Science is not done via petition. JBKramer 00:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The New Scientist article that reports the dispute over the Big Bang, and my own work, as its cover article is "End of the Beginning" by Marcus Chown,2 July 2005 ,p.30. The cover shows a huge wrecking ball descending on the words"Big Bang" which are, appropriately, carved in stone. If everyone was ignoring me, it's odd that such a big magazine would feature my work, and others in the anti-Big bang camp, on its cover, no?Elerner 01:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Arxiv is used universally as a source."? Not on Wikipedia.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 05:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Arxiv sources may be used with caution. For example, where a paper has been accepted for publication elsewhere. But usually they are considered to be a self-published sources, and there are exception, and as long as we don't misrepresent the source, this may be OK. --Iantresman 09:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Right. NASA appears to confirm his claims. As they run the JPL, I think they'd know. However, the text is similar to what was there, which means it needs edited. (Attr. 08:51, 11 October 2006 Adam Cuerden)

Lyndon LaRouche
Why is it that we don't discuss Lerner's activities with Lyndon LaRouche? --ScienceApologist 22:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Do you have any sources we can refer to? --Iantresman 22:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I tried to post them, but they were filtered out by the spambot. Do a google search for Lyndon LaRouche and Eric Lerner and see what comes up. --ScienceApologist 23:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you post links the Web page, with note indicating what we should look out for? --Iantresman 23:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * ??? --ScienceApologist 23:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * All I've found so far is him acting, as far as I can tell, entirely correctly, even if he had been taken in by a controversial person temporarily, e.g.. "A former LaRouche follower, Eric Lerner, stated in a 1979 affidavit filed in a commercial dispute with LaRouche loyalists that he had been pressured by NCLC leaders to "funnel" profits from an engineering business to the U.S. Labor Party (an electoral arm of the NCLC) in violation of election laws. "It is the policy of the USLP to use corporations as fronts for the USLP and as channels for funding of USLP," Mr. Lerner charged, citing the case of Computron, a software firm once associated with Mr. LaRouche." That said, his connection with the events - be careful here now: This looks like it could be a particularly nasty-looking series of events, and this part we MUST get right the first time, because if we get this wrong, and, say, accidentally accuse him (or Lyndon LaRouche, for that matter) of complicity where none exists, it could be straightforward libel - could be an interesting part of his biography. Adam Cuerden talk 23:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That's more or less correct. LaRouche is the only politician I know of who incorporates Big Bang denial into his platform. Is it because of Eric Lerner? I have no idea, but this warrants further research, I'd wager. --ScienceApologist 23:53, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh. Just edited what I said, as a first precaution. I think this is the section where we get to use alledged and appears and argue about NPOV a lot. However, it's probably worth citing up the rest of the article and getting it balanced first. Adam Cuerden talk 00:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * And would it be significant if Lerner did work for Big Bang supporters? What proportion do you think would show independence? --Iantresman 23:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to convey with the above comment. --ScienceApologist 23:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Might have been meant for the section on sources and proving information? Adam Cuerden talk 00:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Are we certain that the Eric Lerner associated with LaRouche is the as the subject of this article? "The American Ideology: or Why LCers Fear Theory" by Eric Lerner and Carol Menzel. ("LCers" may refer to members of the National Caucus of Labor Committees and the International Caucus of Labor Committees, former LaRouche parties. -Will Beback 19:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed Text
In addition, he developed an original model of the role of the strong magnetic field effect on plasma functioning, which he believes can make net energy production more feasible.

In all honesty, I can't figure out quite what that means. Missing text?

This is the other big advantage of the list of articles: It makes it easy to figure out what things should say. Adam Cuerden talk 23:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's a list of refereed articles (those attributed to Eric J. lerner), however,
 * .. I believe that only about 15 would be considered "original work", so we need to get Eric to verify.
 * .. and a list of non-refereed articles --Iantresman 23:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Now, I'm a biologist, not a physicist, but there seems to be a series of articles on wetting transitions (whatever those are) published in prestigous journals.[etc.], as well as a couple superconductivity and other researches of note. He is cited by others in many cases. At the least, it is hard not to call him a physicist.

...I would like to know why there's such an abrupt cutoff in 1995, though. It seems slightly odd, though it may be a sarch relic. Adam Cuerden talk 00:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't include anything other than "Eric Lerner" or "Eric J. Lerner". Is Aerospace America peer reviewed? Elerner 01:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * AIAA journals are peer-reviewed,, but Aerospace America is not, claiming its "contributors include leaders of the nation's major space, aeronautics, and defense programs as well as premier decision-makers in government, industry, and academia – both national and international.", and just describes itself as "The most authoritative source",


 * That's not Eric Lerner, it's Eugenio Lerner. JBKramer 00:41, 11 October 2006 (U

Eric Lerner, physicist
I have these sources describing Lerner as a "physicist", "independent physicist", or "plasma physicist", attributed to the Boston Globe, Providence Journal, Buffalo News, The Intelligencer and New York Times.

The Wiki article on Physicist notes that "Physicists are employed in a variety of fields, most of which require at least a bachelor's degree .. Post-doctorate experience may be required for certain positions." (my emphasis).

Are there any verifiable requirements that Lerner does not fulful, in order to be described as a physicist? --Iantresman 10:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. A doctorate, or acceptance of his work by others in the field. Science is not done by popular news articles. JBKramer 15:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The Wiki article says "Physicists are employed in a variety of fields, most of which require at least a bachelor's degree". Is this incorrect? And can you provide a veriable source that corrects it.
 * Lerner's article includes over a dozen articles by Lerner, that were accepted for publication by his peers. He also seems to be accepted by a number of collaborators at Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, Inc.. Unless you have a verifible source showing the physicists must be accepted in some other way? --Iantresman 15:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It goes on to say "many positions, especially those in research, require a doctoral degree." Is he a machinist?
 * Lawrenceville Plasma Physics is a vanity company run by Lerner. I might point you to which might illuminate the purpose of the company to some readers perhaps. Lerner's published articles are all ancient, and have been either refuted or ignored by the scientific community. JBKramer 15:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Citation please, defining physicist's requirement for a Ph.D? You were very insistant on citations earlier on. --Iantresman 15:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I cannot respond to the above snark and remain in the bounds of WP:CIVIL. JBKramer 16:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I am sorry if the question comes across as snarky, but it was unintential. You have been instistant on citations, above where you were helpful enough to direct me to "m:dick".
 * So I ask you, respectfully, for a reliable source that shows that a physicist REQURIES a doctoroate. The Wiki article information is unsourced, the article on Doctorate only mentions that it entitles the person to use the title "Dr". --Iantresman 16:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * We do not use wikipedia as a source, as anyone can edit wikipedia. Science is done by academics, which means graduate degrees. Is it proper to call anyone a historian who writes history; no it is not. It is a academic field of trained specialists. Arbusto 00:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Science is done by academics and non-academics, and the Wiki article on Scientist does not list academia is a requirement. Even my 12-year-old son does science at school, and submits his work for peer review whenever he hands in his homework. The Wiki article on Historians tells us it "can be used to describe amateur and professional historians alike, it is now often reserved for people whose work is recognized in academia, particularly those who have acquired graduate degrees in the discipline". Sounds good to me. --Iantresman 16:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
IEEE transactions are generally not peer reviewed, though they sometimes are. You need to provide evidence that the articles listed under peer review were actually reviewed. Grant reports are also generally not peer reviewed. --ScienceApologist 10:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Why don't you ask questions first, and wait until you get an answer before considering deleting? Lerner has indicated they're peer reviewed, and I've previously told you they're peer review,.
 * Or even better, do some research yourself and find out. Wiki now has an article on the IEEE Nuclear and Plasma Sciences Society indicating that its transactions are peer reviewed, and its web site indicates its peer reviewed.
 * Please restore the ciations, and consider collaborating more on editing before removing material you are unsure about. --Iantresman 11:20, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see anything in your links that indicates that all IEEE transaction papers Lerner published were peer reviewed. I know that many IEEE transactions are NOT peer reviewed, and while the link you provided to the founding of TPS indicates that they wanted peer review, there is no indication on that site that this is what actually occurs for all the work they publish. I don't take you or Eric at your word: I want a source that indicates that these things are peer-reviewed. --ScienceApologist 11:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If we're going to play the "I told you so" game, I asked a plasma physicist down the hall from me a number of months ago whether all IEEE plasma science transactions were peer reviewed. He indicated that they were not, that generally they published just about anything that comes from member contributors. Of course, this is just as much hearsay as you or Eric's comments to the opposite effect, so get a statement that we can verify. --ScienceApologist 11:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The first link I gave you to the page "History of the Founding of the Transactions on Plasma Science" includes the paragraph: "we insisted on having peer reviewed manuscripts."
 * The Home page of the Nuclear and Plasma Sciences Society includes a "Message From The NPSS President" which reads "We also sponsor or co-sponsor 4 well respected peer reviewed journals." and clicking on the publications link shows three publications, that includes the Transactions on Plasma Science. --Iantresman 12:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the editor said that they insisted on having peer review manuscripts, but there is no description of how the process differs from conference proceedings of other IEEE transactions to accomplish this. I, frankly, don't consider that statement to be reliable. And furthermore, the statement from the president doesn't seem very exacting either. There is a real issue here that IEEE transactions may not have the peer-review system that most scientists expect when submitting papers. --ScienceApologist 12:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science is not a journal devoted to conference proceedings. There is sometimes a "Conference Transactions Issue" of the Transactions on Plasma Science, which unlike the Conference Record, is also peer reviewed. See NPSS Conference Policy Procedure,
 * I trust you'll be as forthcoming with citations when I ask for them at the article on Redshift --Iantresman 14:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not saying that IEEE transactions are conference proceedings, I'm saying that I don't see how they differ from the process by which conference proceedings are vetted for inclusion in publications of the conference. Conference proceedings have a similarly high rate of acceptance for posters/talks and so I'm simply wondering if they have the same system. I don't have any evidence for this because I can't find any -- I'm pointing out simply that the citations are nebulous at best that all these papers Eric had published by IEEE were actually peer reviewed. --ScienceApologist 14:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm restoring all those IEEE transactions papers. There may be a low threshold for acceptance in IEEE Transactions on Plasma Physics, but it was quite easy to confirm that there is a review process: look at the "annual report" from  and you'll see that the acceptance rate for regular papers is in the 50-60% range.  Hence, "peer-reviewed."  We are not Lerner's tenure committee.  Mango juice talk 11:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No, acceptance rate below 100% does not indicate peer review. Where did you get that notion? --ScienceApologist 12:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Without checking the specific journal (which I probably could do), I think this requires a fact-check in the article on the question of whether the journal is peer-reviewed. It's plausible, either way, at this time.  (Either that, or all references to the article should be removed, as SA seems to want to do.)  It's not right to leave the impression that the journal is peer-reviewed without evidence; Transactions usually aren't in my fields (Mathematical Logic).  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Changed my mind. Only if the journal were cited as a "peer-reviewed journal" would there be a problem.  Listing papers may be appropriate unless they are essentially self-published, and there's no claim that Transactions is that bad.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 15:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As I mentioned above, the NPSS Conference Policy Procedure, tells us that the IEEE Transactions on Plasma Science are indeed peer reviewed (just search for 'peer'). --Iantresman 16:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That statement is inadequate to determine whether an 'issue of Transactions is a "Conference Record" or a "Conference Transactions Issue". It still shouldn't be called "peer-reviewed" without additional sourcing.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin |  (talk) 16:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So the page on the "History of the Founding of the Transactions on Plasma Science" tells us "we insisted on having peer reviewed manuscripts."
 * The Home page of the Nuclear and Plasma Sciences Society includes a "Message From The NPSS President" which reads "We also sponsor or co-sponsor 4 well respected peer reviewed journals." that are listed here
 * And the NPSS Conference Policy Procedure, tells us that the that the "IEEE Transactions on Nuclear Science or Transactions on Plasma Science) .. must undergo a peer review process." --Iantresman 17:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Manuscript Central Online Peer Review System includes the journal.
 * And the IEEE Peer Review page tells us that "IEEE periodicals (journals, transactions, letters, and magazines) have implemented a rigorous peer review process" (my emphasis) --Iantresman 17:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Citations for text
Eric, perhaps you'd be kind enough to provide some sources for the following, or reword it to support citations that you do have: --Iantresman 14:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Lerner developed a theory postulating that quasars are not related to black holes but are rather produced by a magnetic self-compression process similar to that occurring in the plasma focus. Through this work, he developed a detailed quantitative theory of the functioning of the plasma focus. Based on this theory, he proposed that the plasma focus could achieve high ion and electron energies at high densities, suitable for advanced fuel fusion and space propulsion. Lerner has done experimental work on the plasma focus in collaboration with the University of Illinois in 1994, with Texas A&M University in 2001 and with the Chilean Nuclear Energy Commission. In addition, he developed an original model of the role of the strong magnetic field effect on plasma functioning, showing that this effect could make net energy production more feasible, potentially leading to an economical and safe source of energy.


 * He has presented this approach to fusion at several scientific conferences including (in the past five years) the IEEE International Conference on Plasma Science, 2002: the American Physical Society, 2003 and the XI Latin American Workshop on Plasma Physics, 2005. Lerner was an invited speaker at both the Fifth (2003) and Sixth (2005) Symposia on Current Trends in International Fusion Research, which is sponsored by the UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). In the Sixth Symposium the paper was presented with Robert E. Terry, Naval Research Laboratory)(http://www.physicsessays.com/doc/s2005/Lerner_Transparencies.pdf)