Talk:Eric Oram

Notability
I tagged this article for questionable notability because everything seems related to Robert Downey Jr., or to a lesser extent, other actors. The coverage doesn't seem to be focused on Oram, but rather it's passing mentions such as "actor so and so was taught by Eric Oram". I think the article needs some significant coverage about Oram, not his students. Papaursa (talk) 23:07, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Oram is definitely a famous Martial Arts practitioner, but whether this article should be separate, or merged with other articles on Wing Chun is the real question.Greg Holden 08 (talk) 05:40, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The question isn't whether he's "famous" (whatever that really means), but whether or not he's notable as WP defines it. I was thinking about a redirect to Robert Downey Jr.. Papaursa (talk) 17:55, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Okay, then let me re-phrase: Eric Oram has gained sufficiently significant attention by the Martial-Arts world at large and over a period of time as evidenced by coverage in reliable secondary sources (e.g. international Martial Arts magazines, etc.). This should satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Greg Holden 08 (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Papaursa (talk) I am sorry to read that WP is a source of stress to you and I hope we don't add to it... You have flagged Eric Oram notability not inherited from others. Eric Oram is not only one of Grandmaster William Cheung's most senior disciples as a martial artist but his work on fight choreography on this scale and success makes him notable and not for simply training Hollywood A list actors. The fight scenes in Sherlock holmes were pioneered in that movie, you may want to read about it if it interests you as it's fascinating. The sources are credible and address specifically the main areas of the article, every word has been taken from other sources so as nothing is made up. It has been a couple of years that I have been searching and tracking waiting for enough sources to become available for this article to be written so please try not to be quick to try and have it deleted, there are tons of martial artists on wikipedia less famous than Eric Oram. It has been a couple of years that I have been searching and tracking waiting for enough sources to become available for this article to be written.

I have placed the sources which are specifically about Eric Oram below which are not a passing mention;

http://www.ma-mags.com/Mags/BB10/BB%202010-05%20Cov.jpg

https://www.magzter.com/DK/Mui_Fa_Publishing_Ltd/Wing_Chun_Illustrated/Health/61946

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/vault/cma/sherlock-holmes-wing-chun-stunts-reenacted-by-fan

http://www.hollywood.com/celebrities/eric-oram-57810125/

https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Modern_Wing_Chun_Kung_Fu.html?id=QLQlKQEACAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en

http://comicbook.com/2015/10/03/robert-downey-jr-s-fight-coordinator-eric-oram-on-the-unique-cha/ (Australianblackbelt (talk) 10:31, 6 February 2017 (UTC))


 * I appreciate the comments. I had done some research of my own and everything I found seemed either to be focused on Cheung or on Downey/Iron Man.  The sources mentioned above do not allay my concerns as at least some of them do not appear to be reliable sources or show he's notable as an author.  Notability is not inherited from one's instructor.  I'm not in a rush to delete this article (note I didn't take it to AfD), but I posted the notability tag to indicate a potential problem.  Of course the fact that there are a lot of poor MA articles on WP is irrelevant to this discussion.  Other stunt coordinators (or even martial arts) for successful films have been deleted or redirected.  It may be that others consider this enough to show notability, but I'd rather there be no doubt.  Some articles from reliable sources that focus on him and are separate from Cheung, Downey, or Iron Man would likely eliminate any questions about his notability.  By the way, this kind of civil discourse is not what makes WP stressful to me. Papaursa (talk) 01:42, 7 February 2017 (UTC)


 * This is Warner bros. See opening statement text >>>> The video also (FEATURES) Eric Oram, a well known wing chun instructor who was the fight consultant for the film. Eric goes over the sequence that Sherlock used in the film which includes an ear box strike, a throat strike, a body shot then a strike to the kneecap to finish it off. Eric also points out that while filming Sherlock, the strikes made actual contact on the stuntmen which usually doesn’t happen but was done for realism''. http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/vault/cma/sherlock-holmes-wing-chun-stunts-reenacted-by-fan

"Critical distance". Black Belt Magazine (Print Issue cover story). Active Interest Media. Features Eric Oram on the front cover and inside article is only relation to Eric Oram and his style of martial art. Available on ebay I have a copy... no mention or Robert Downey Jr or William Cheung.

This is an (INTERVIEW) of Eric Oram and his work for coriorgahy Wing Chun Illustrated (Print Issue No. 6, 2012). Mui Fa Publishing Ltd. You can buy a copy for $4 here https://www.magzter.com/DK/Mui_Fa_Publishing_Ltd/Wing_Chun_Illustrated/Health/61946

This is also an (INTERVIEW) of Eric Oram http://comicbook.com/2015/10/03/robert-downey-jr-s-fight-coordinator-eric-oram-on-the-unique-cha/

He is in this WP article as an actor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloe_and_Theo and his other acting roles allthough not Major http://www.hollywood.com/celebrities/eric-oram-57810125/ These roles and everything else ALL add up to enough reason for notablitiy. Note that this subject has NO website promoting himself like many other martial artists like William Cheung so there is no self promoting as he does not even have facebook or any social media which means he or his promoter have no need for WP.

You will see apart from Greg Holden 08 (talk) there have been 7 editors/users make small changes to this article to make it better, would they have contributed if they thought it was as weak as you say... Thank you for your input I rest my case :) enough of my free time spend on this (Australianblackbelt (talk) 12:00, 7 February 2017 (UTC))
 * Most of those fix formatting issues regardless of merit.Peter Rehse (talk) 13:30, 7 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Captain america civil war got nominated this year for the Screen Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Performance by a Stunt Ensemble in a Motion Picture if it had won Eric Oram would have got up with with some others to collect the award and your here questioning notability, I must admit that would have been very funny LoL (Australianblackbelt (talk) 19:13, 8 February 2017 (UTC))

Papaursa (talk) my point is why persist in deleting an awesome interesting article full or sources like this even after another user other than I has vouched for it when there are other martial arts articles such as  Shaun Rawcliffe which has only ONE reference which is not even proven in it's self and is just one big advertisement no offence to you. but are you waiting for someone else to take your side??(Australianblackbelt (talk) 23:49, 9 February 2017 (UTC))
 * Again, let me remind you that other articles have no bearing on this article (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). Feel free to nominate the Shaun Rawcliffe article for deletion.  That said, my sole purpose in this discussion is to make sure this article is up to snuff and can prove it's WP notable.  Please don't ascribe to me motives I do not have. Papaursa (talk) 17:24, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Papaursa (talk) Nice to know you have no ulterior motives, I shall keep my ear to the ground soon as the next news article comes out on Oram I will include it. Cheers (Australianblackbelt (talk) 12:38, 12 February 2017 (UTC))

Some related thoughts
I came here by way of a notice at WP:WikiProject Martial arts asking for feedback, which I didn't come across until after this had been moved to articlespace. Having taken a look at the sources, I'd say this might pass WP:GNG, if not exactly by leaping bounds. But I do have some concerns about the content within the article, particularly as regards neutral, encyclopedic tone and verifiability. There's a fair bit of WP:weasel wordage, and the general underlying implied message of the article (that Oram has been generally recognized as having significantly revolutionized the choreography of film fight scenes, as of the Sherlock film...) would need a loooooot more high quality sourcing to pass WP:NPOV/WP:WEIGHT. Overall, the tone is just a little too personal and glowing. All that said, it wouldn't take a whole lot changes to tweak it into consistency with encyclopedic tone.  S n o w  let's rap 03:58, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

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 * Anthony Arnett and Eric Oram.jpg