Talk:Erie BayHawks (2008–2017)

Merge?
The Erie II NBA Gatorade League team article seems unnecessary given that this article exists. Should it be merged w/this article? Blaylockjam10 (talk) 09:23, 16 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball, as I began a discussion there. The concern is that this is a different franchise than the current BayHawks as that franchise was purchased by Orlando and relocating it to Lakeland next season. And the reason it is being discussed at the Basketball Project is that it also concerns what will happen to Lakeland NBA Gatorade League team and whether the current Erie BayHawks should be moved over to that space at the end of the season (the normal way for the project to handle a relocation is to move the page to the new name so the Lakeland page should actually be merged here until the end of the season and then move this page to "Central Florida Magic" or whatever they decide on as a name). Yosemiter (talk) 13:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Lakeland Magic merge
The consensus of the Basketball WikiProject is to have one page per franchise. This iteration of the franchise relocates to Lakeland and an expansion franchise will be called the BayHawks for the next two years. The Lakeland Magic page should be merged here to preserve the extensive edit history. Once merged, the entire page should then be moved over the Lakeland Magic name. Yosemiter (talk) 02:57, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Why should the Lakeland Magic page be merged here and not this page merged into the Lakeland Magic one? Tom Danson (talk) 03:32, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * To preserve edit history, iinm, being this is the older article. oknazevad (talk) 03:35, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * And how do you know that the system will allow us to make the move right away? (often I have to put in a move request manually because it doesn't allow that) Tom Danson (talk) 03:42, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The move would not be able to be done right away, it would need technical assistance from an admin-type. But there is no particular rush except to streamline the editing done to the relocated team (as long as something is doen before the start of next season anyways). If I had been able to, I actually would have moved this page to Lakeland Magic, redirected the Lakeland NBA G-League page to the Lakeland Magic, created a redirect for Erie BayHawks (2008–2017) to Lakeland Magic, and a temporary DAB page for Erie BayHawks until all uses were appropriately redirected to the proper franchise. But it is too late for that, so here we are. Yosemiter (talk) 14:35, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Merging the Lakeland Magic article here sounds good to me. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 20:42, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Keep The BayHawks Pages As One
I live in Erie, Pennsylvania and I can assure everyone that the Erie BayHawks will exist for the 2017-18 NBA D-League season. It's just that they're no longer owned by the Orlando Magic. Their D-League team will be an expansion team, while the Atlanta Hawks now owns Erie's team. For the foreseeable future however, it doesn't change the fact that with the way that the D-League is shaping itself these days, it looks more and more likely that the BayHawks are just a temporary placeholder before ultimately moving down to Georgia. For now, the Lakeland Magic are in no way supposed to have the BayHawks' history. Alakazam (talk) 13:31, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The expansion BayHawks page is found at Erie BayHawks (2017–). As the current consensus has been in the past to keep franchise history together on one page, that would cause the two BayHawks teams to be split into what will now be the Lakeland Magic and the the ATL Hawks-owned franchise. Yosemiter (talk) 17:42, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I can assure you that that the BayHawks are currently prepping for their 10th Anniversary season. Their website will make that fact clear and the Lakeland Magic's total wins and losses will begin with the 2017-18 season.
 * That may be, but it is still not the same franchise (as in the license to play in league, which is what the Magic bought). The D-League/G-League does still consider them separate franchises per their league expansion page. How the former owners/new franchise managers chose to market the team (which is not the same as a franchise) is entirely up to them. I watched hockey teams do the same thing, as with the Utah Grizzlies celebrating their 20th season in 2015 despite being neither the same franchise or even in the same league, they just shared a name. Yosemiter (talk) 18:08, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think if teams like the Charlotte Hornets and Cleveland Browns can keep their own histories no problem, despite how screwy some of their histories can be (primarily with the Hornets between their original ties with the now New Orleans Pelicans and the former Charlotte Bobcats that are now the Hornets), I think it's fair to allow the Erie BayHawks the same right also. I mean, if the owners/managers decide to keep their Erie roots as opposed to letting them go to the Lakeland Magic (which I'm sure is very likely), then I don't think's much point in letting their roots join the Lakeland team, save for some brief mentions here and there. – AGreatPhoenixSunsFan (talk) 07:20, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * In both the cases of the Browns and the Hornets/Bobcats, the respective leagues specifically made statements about them keeping the history, which is not the case here (yet, but they have had months to make such a statement and their expansion page still calls the Hawks' BayHawks an expansion team). And in two years, the Hawks' owned BayHawks will also move, so it there would be no page at all then (assuming their arena plans in GA go off without a hitch). At which point we would then have to re-split all the history anyways. As for "keeping its roots" in Erie, the former owners, now managers of the BayHawks do still own the rights to the name/logo/colors, but that is not what we have been concerned with in previous consensus. Those are all just for marketing and have nothing to do with franchise history, which is the what the previous consensus was (such as the owners of the Bakersfield Jam still own the rights to the name, etc., but they do not have a franchise to field a team, so that history is now found at NAZ Suns). Yosemiter (talk) 12:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose merge These are two distinct franchises with two distinct histories. Cases of merge against such facts including the Cleveland Browns and Charlotte Hornets are/were supported by league statements that they view it a unified history. I don't believe we have that in this case. How the relocated franchise wishes to present their history (marketing) has no control over their origin and facts. UW Dawgs (talk) 14:21, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Oppose Merge http://www.goerie.com/news/20171110/new-look-bayhawks-take-flight-tonight-in-erie "the BayHawks have retained the statistical records compiled over their past nine seasons in what was formerly known as the D League, even though the franchise itself was purchased by the Magic from former BayHawks majority owner Steve Demetriou." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.23.204.20 (talk) 18:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That's what I was trying to say before! If the owner himself has the records officially on hand for Erie, then it makes for one whole Erie BayHawks page instead of two different pages there! – AGreatPhoenixSunsFan (talk) 01:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The only problem is that the WP:WikiProject NBA chooses to have franchises as one page. And in another two seasons, the new BayHawks will also not be around. This isn't the first time it has happened (where a new franchise claims the history of a past team) and it won't be the last. The G League calls them an expansion team here. Per you own source claiming it is the same: "Bresee said the BayHawks have retained the statistical records compiled over their past nine seasons in what was formerly known as the D League, even though the franchise itself was purchased by the Magic from former BayHawks majority owner Steve Demetriou". Records are not the franchise (a right or license to play in a league), they are branding, which I'm sure the BayHawks' owners will also retain when the new franchise moves to Georgia in 2019. Yosemiter (talk) 02:21, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

If we can prove that the BayHawks, the Lakeland Magic and the G League are all agreed that the current BayHawks “own” the previous history of the franchise name then I think we merge them and separate from the Lakeland Magic article. Right now, it feels like The BayHawks treat it this way (would prefer to see a media guide showing history back to the beginning of the Erie BayHawks), but we don’t have confirmation that the Lakeland Magic don’t also claim the history, and we don’t have the G League POV of where that history resides. Can we find that? Rikster2 (talk) 04:00, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * So far they have all been clear, the current BayHawks do not own the previous franchise. But they do seem to own the records and branding associated with the team that played using that franchise license. It is a common marketing tactic to use a name that has been used before (an example I used before from a different sport, the Utah Grizzlies ECHL hockey team claims the history of the Utah Grizzlies (1995–2005) AHL/IHL hockey team despite different franchises and owners). However, this team/organization is the same as the previous team/organization under the franchise that is now in Lakeland, so it at least is a bit different. )A good example in hockey is the St. John's IceCaps, same organization, two different franchises.) The basketball project though seems to prefer to keep franchises together, which is perfectly acceptable, but makes this matter a bit complex, especially considering the franchise will move again in two seasons. For other examples, the Seattle SuperSonics branding is technically not owned by the OKC Thunder and they have separate pages, but the Bakersfield Jam owners still own their branding (through many reports when they were still trying to get another team) and that page was merged with the Northern Arizona Suns. I believe this will come down to a matter of procedural consensus on how the project wishes to handle it. Yosemiter (talk) 04:42, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Is it clear? I can’t find info that says Lakeland does NOT consider the Erie franchise historical seasons as its own, nor is there a G League media guide to consult. If all three were to agree that Erie keeps the 2008-2017 records then that is now one franchise. This is exactly the case of the Charlotte Hornets. The Charlotte Hornets history “belonged to” the New Orleans Hornets until the new Charlotte Hornets came along years later, and then it was moved by the league. This is what Wikipedia reflects because that is what all the primary sources reflect (Hornets, Pelicans, NBA). The Erie BayHawks could be the same thing, and if so would be treated the same way, but IMO we don’t have sufficient proof that the G League has kept the BayHawks’ records together. It’s one thing for the owner to say so, but I’d like to see confirmation from the other affected team and the league, but the G League doesn’t have as clear documentation as the top-level NBA. Rikster2 (talk) 13:05, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is as clear as the New Orleans Hornets/Charlotte Hornets/Bobcats situation (which if I recall the league announced it had retroactively made the NO Hornets an expansion franchise). The key term here is that the 2017 BayHawks are an expansion franchise but not an expansion team (as it is the first season of the use of the new franchise license owned by the Atlanta Hawks after the Magic purchased the previous one and that fact has been continually re-iterated in press releases and such). I don't think I really need to go into detail describing that a franchise license is not the equivalent of a team or organization that operates a team. While the G League has not been forthcoming with a Media Guide, their stats tab do list all previous BayHawks seasons with the current iteration and the Lakeland Magic do not. (For comparison, NAZ Suns have both the Jam and Suns records even though, as I pointed out, they do not own the Jam branding.) I have no idea what the stats site will look like though when the Hawks move their franchise to Georgia. It seems the Basketball project should probably decide the best course action for the merges: keep franchise histories together (as it is now) or team histories together (and make it clear that it operated as two different franchises, which is also how the hockey project manages the problem). Yosemiter (talk) 19:21, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

Bold edit
Since these discussions seemed to be going nowhere (split between locals claiming it is the same team and wikiproject members' previous consensus was merging franchises), I made the bold edit of merging per the previous wikiproject consensus. At worst this will be WP:BRD and will generate more discussions from other editors. Yosemiter (talk) 22:43, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

One year later...
... the G League still considers the Lakeland Magic the same as the original BayHawks per their 27 in 27 days. Here is the one for the Hawks-owned BayHawks. Yosemiter (talk) 22:06, 30 August 2018 (UTC)