Talk:Ermine (heraldry)

Link to Armenia
EncycloPetey, according to dictionary.com, the word "ermine" originates from "Armenian," as in "Armenian rat":

Origin: 1150–1200; ME < OF (h)ermine, n. use of fem. of (h)ermin (masc. adj.) < L Armenius, short for Armenius (mūs) Armenian (rat)] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ermine

And the articla stoat tells us (the part not added by me) that " In winter, the coat is thicker and in regions that experience an inch or more of snow for at least forty days of the year, the color changes to clean white. This white fur is known as "ermine").

Hence, ermine, which describes the fur of the animal, derives its name from the word "Armenian." Someone visiting the article might wonder at the similarity of the "ermine" and "Armenian," and the added information makes it easier to for them to make the connection. It's an interesting trivia, and it's source--please do not remove sourced information.--TigranTheGreat 01:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it doesn't. It says that ermine came from Old French (h)ermine.  It then says that the Old French word comes from Latin Armenius.  At no point does it say that the etymology comes from the word "Armenia".  The discussion of winter coats for the animal has nothing to do with the heraldic tincture.  That information should be put on the page for the ermine (stoat) because it is about the animal, not about the tincture used in heraldic coats of arms.  It may be interesting, and it may be trivia, but that doesn't make it true or make it relevant to the article.  Please do not add irrelevant information that is unsupported by the reference. --EncycloPetey 05:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

EncycloPetey, the Latin "Armenius" means "Armenian," and hence the term "ermine" used in heraldry originates from "Armenian:" "L Armenius, short for Armenius (mus) (Armenian (rat))" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ermine

I understand, however, that you are fully within your rights to demand further sources to make the link and relevance clearer :) I am therefore providing further sources stating the origin of the heraldic fur (and its name) from Armenia. Here they are:

"Ermine. The most valued fur, it took its name from Herminia (Armenia), worn by Kings, Princes and Nobles"

Mary G. Houston, "Medieval Costume in England and France: The 13th, 14th and 15th Centuries," p. 222; Dover Publications, 1996; ISBN: 0486290603 http://books.google.com/books?id=Z430bgXpeUgC&pg=PA222&sig=vgoe5UCW8voEjeCZII-t10zqNpw

"In the 6th century, furs were brought to Rome from the countries near the Baltic, and from the mountains near the head waters of the river Euphrates. The sable was found as far south as Poland, and the ermine was taken among the mountains of Armenia, from whence it derived its name.... The noble furs were the ermine, the sable, the vair, and the gris, of which the three first were admitted into armorial bearings."

"The Fur Trade," p. 554; in Elijah Coleman Bridgman, S. W. Williams, "The Chinese Repository," Volume 3, No. 12, April 1835; Adamant Media Corporation, 2003; ISBN: 1402156391 http://books.google.com/books?id=530bAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA554

"Several considerations, however, militate against this view. One is the Eastern origin of many of our heraldic terms: thus gules is the Persian gul, a rose; asure is also Persian lasurd, blue; ermine is the fur of an Armenian beast."

Stanley Lane-Poole, "The Art of the Saracens in Egypt," p 269; Kessinger Publishing, 2007; ISBN: 1430457856 http://books.google.com/books?id=M9qqqzPCgmoC&pg=PA269

"Ermine... is represented by three spots placed triangularly, and three hairs in black upon a white ground... This fur is said to have been introduced into Englad by Alan, Earl of Richmond. The ermine (mustela erminea) is found in all the northern regions of the old continent, and as far southward as Persia and China. It was originally brought into western Europe from Armenia, then called Ermonie, whence its name. Chaucer employs ermin for the adjective Armenian."

Mark Antony Lower, "The Curiosities of Heraldry," p. 55; London, 1845; ASIN: B000LUQQ98 http://books.google.com/books?id=-EEEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA55

"The use of furs became general in the thirteenth century among all classes; the rich using them for luxury, the poor for warmth. Sheep and lamb-skins were ordinarily used by the latter; ermine, vair, minivier, and gris, all small and expensive skins, by the former. ... In the middle ages the fur of the ermine (so named from Armenia, then written Herminia, from whence it was brought) and the sable ranked highest."

Frederick William Fairholt, "Costume in England: A history of dress from the earliest period until the close of the eighteenth century," p. 451; London, 1860; ASIN: B00087SY26 http://books.google.com/books?id=4mMBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA451

''The Ermine Furs of middle ages were brought from Armenia, and hence the animals received their name. They were, at one time, called Armenian Weasels; and and a still earlier period, Armenian Mice. The snowy whiteness of the Fur caused it to be considered an emblem of purity: it lined the state robes of magistrates and of kings... The Furriers make a spotted Ermine .... It is in imitation of this practice (a very ancient one) that Ermine in Heraldry denotes the representation of a white fild, or fur, intersperced with black spots.''

Booth, David, "An analytical dictionary of the English language," p. 241; London, 1835; ASIN: B00087ZCTE http://books.google.fr/books?id=Wwi5sUW6R18C&pg=RA1-PA241

So, from the sources we know the following:


 * The fur used in knightly and royal coating came from Armenia.
 * Because of this, the fur (and not just the animal) received its name.
 * Any discussion of the medeival costumes and armors mentioning the ermine fur also mentions the origin of both the fur, and the name, from Armenia.

Now, I realize that my haphazard wording in the article was probably sloppy, so how about the following addition, about the origin of the fur and its name:

''The heraldic ermine originates from Armenia, from where it received its name. The ermine fur was brought from Armenia to Europe in the 6th century, where it began to be used as lining on state robes worn by European royalty and nobility, as well as on coats of arms.''

Would you agree to inclusion of this paragraph, along with the relevant sources mentioned earlier? Thank you.--TigranTheGreat 04:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, because most of it is irrelevant to this article, and the rest is still grossly incorrect.


 * The fact that ermine fur was brought to Europe from anywhere is irrelevant to heraldry; it is a subject of animal pelts, not coats of arms. I realize you are passionate about Armenia, but it doesn't make your statements true.  Please understand that a folk belief that the furs came from Armenia doesn't mean that's where they all came from.  Americans call cut potatoes French fries, even though they were invented in Belgium.  The Pennsylvania Dutch are actually German descendants, and many American Indians are not from India.  Also understand that your sources are translating original names to modern forms.  The dictionary.com citation gives the correct etymology, which does not involve the word Armenia.  The source word is Latin armenius which means "ermine, stoat".


 * Heraldic ermine originated in France & England, with the origin of heraldry. Heraldry was unknown in Armenia until many centruies later.  If you can find any solid evidence of heraldry used in Armenia before the 17th century, I would be very surprised.  Heraldry did not spread east of the Baltic states and the Balkans until the 17th century.  The French & English crreated a stylized representation of the fur pattern and that is what heraldic ermine refers to.  It is not an actual animal skin. --EncycloPetey 04:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Etymology of ermine
The ermine (animal) is known in classical and vulgar Latin as "armenius", which is a substantive use of the adjective. If you have evidence that another name was used in the early medieval period, please provide a citation. The information given comes from several etymological dictionaries, which agree on the etymology. The name Mustela erminea did not appear until much, much later, long after the word "ermine" was coined. It is the modern scientific name as set down by Linnaeus, so it cannot be the etymologic origin of a word in medieval French and English. --EncycloPetey 16:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * you are right. I was trying to correct the unmotivated "mouse". The OED has the following:
 * "Some scholars (including Kluge and Skeat) think that the Romanic word is ad. OHG. harmîn adj., ‘belonging to the ermine’, f. harmo ermine, stoat, weasel, corresp. to the synonymous OE. hearma (glossed ‘megale’ = mygale Wr.-Wülck. 32) and Lith. szermu (OAryan type k'ormon-, -en-). A different hypothesis (favoured by Littré, Paul Meyer, and others) is that the Romanic words represent L. Armenius Armenian. The mus Ponticus, ‘Pontic rat’, mentioned by Pliny as a fur-bearing animal, is commonly supposed, though without actual proof, to be the ermine; and as Pontus and Armenia were conterminous, it has been suggested that an alternative name for the animal may have been mus Armenius. That some animal was known by this designation in the second century is rendered probable by a passage in Julius Pollux (c A.D. 180), who (Onomast. VII. 60) gives muotos as the name of an Armenian garment, and, amongst other conjectures as to the origin of the word, suggests that this article of dress may have been so named because made of the skins of ‘the mice (or rats) of that country’. The belief that the ermine derived its name from Armenia was common in the 14th c., and the supposition accounts quite satisfactorily for the Romanic forms of the word. If this view be correct, it involves the consequence that the resemblance in sound between ermine and OHG. harmîn was merely accidental; there may however have been an early confusion between two distinct words of similar sound and meaning."

--dab (𒁳) 11:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)