Talk:Ernest Burkhart

Serial Killer label
Is there serial killer label accurate or helpful? Not a single historian writing about the murders call them serial killers and all of the sources currently cited are passing mentions in the context of the film character and not in the context of the person and actual events. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 05:49, 10 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Unless if there was something about his murders that disqualifies them from being considered serial killings, I believe it qualifies due to meeting the definition of three or more victims with a cooldown period.
 * And as for the label being contemporary- all of the murders committed by Leonardo's character in the movie also happened in real life, and the Osage murders are very severely under-reported and under-researched in general, with Grann's 2017 book one of the first comprehensive overviews of the violence. That being said, I understand if extenuating circumstances can cause the label to be considered inaccuate. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 06:26, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @HadesTTW @Omnibenevolence, I think the fact the murders may not have all been done by Ernest is a good reason to not attribute all of them to him and call him a serial killer. Read the article:
 * Anna Brown- shot by Kelsie Morrison.
 * Charles Whitehorn- killer unknown.
 * Lizzie Q- unclear if poisoning or old age.
 * Joe Grayhorse- killer unknown.
 * Anna Sanford- killer unknown.
 * Minnie Kile- killer unknown.
 * George Bigheart- killer likely Hale and/or Ernest, but not directly attributed in sources.
 * William Vaughn- killer unknown.
 * Henry Roan- Hale and John Ramsey are convicted for this murder.
 * Rita Smith/Nettie Brookshire/Bill Smith- he's convicted for this bombing, but the historical record also names Asa Kirby as the person who actually plants and activates the bomb.
 * It's unclear from the historical record which murders are directly attributable to Burkhart. What three killings are we using as the basis for the label and does the historical record actually attribute those killings to Ernest?
 * Also, some advice from someone who grew up in Osage County and read Grann's book, there are dozens of unsolved murders from that era and they can't all be attributed to Hale and Ernest. Osage County wasn't a county with a few serial killers, it was a county with a few murders in every town. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 17:42, 10 November 2023 (UTC) edited TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @TulsaPoliticsFan It is accurate to refer to Burkhart as a serial killer since he killed more than three people throughout multiple years, uncaught. Per serial killer:
 * "A serial killer (also called a serial murderer) is typically a person who murders three or more people, with the murders taking place over more than a month and including a significant period of time between them. While most authorities set a threshold of three murders, others extend it to four or lessen it to two." Omnibenevolence (talk) 10:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)


 * He was a serial killer, that's not a controversial claim. The descriptor "serial Killer" wasn't coined until the 70's or 80's so it's not found in contemporary reportage. Renewed interest in the articles subject has seen him described as a serial killer, and he clearly was a serial killer. The only other descriptor I can think of is "mass murderer" but his activities don't fit that descriptor. He was a serial killer and that's a verifiable and uncontroversial claim. I do get what TulsaPoliticsFan is saying in that Ernest was only convicted for one murder, though he was clearly implicated in at least 9 more and at least on other attempted murder. Tambor de Tocino (talk) 22:54, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Please see my above comment about attribution, which three victims did he kill personally (not arrange the killing by someone else) and where do historians attribute those murders to him? The term "serial killer" is never used in David Grann's book and not used by any historian of the Osage Indian murders that I've seen. It's use in the article is entirely derived from pop reporting on the movie and not serious historical work. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 23:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, this isn't a defense of Ernest, he's a convicted murderer. But framing the Osage Indian murders as the work of a few serial killers obfuscates the real history which is there are still dozens of unsolved murders likely committed by multiple still unknown killers. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 23:16, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @TulsaPoliticsFan I don't feel too strongly about this, you can remove the serial killer label if you want Omnibenevolence (talk) 15:50, 22 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Considering that the killings were part of an organized crime ring, he would be closer to a hitman. Although, i would still claim that may be somewhat inaccurate in spirit. Regardless, the term serial killer on its own implies a lone wolf, "for pleasure" nature that is contradicted by the next line. The killings were participatory actions within the crime ring.
 * And yes I'm aware hitmen are a form of serial killer, but there is a reason why the distinction exists. 2601:14C:4200:7FA0:E082:6FBA:24B6:4D0F (talk) 14:03, 16 November 2023 (UTC)