Talk:Ernest Hemingway

Arrogance and attitude toward women & animals
I admit that I have not studied the archives here, but wish to ask anyway: has nothing reliable at all ever been published about this man's disgusting personal behavior even though it often was so obvious to everyone? The article reads as if he was a perfect angel, as far as I can see. He was not, and the text needs balance. Great writer, yes. Wonderful man, emphatic no. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 April 2024
Anderson suggested Paris so that Hemingway could met the American writer

This sentence should say could meet not could met - bad spelling 2A05:87C6:1F6E:0:7882:B858:8B08:927D (talk) 08:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅. Yes, a typo, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:TFA
Pinging Victoriaearle and Ceoil: Hemingway is on the TFA-pending list for the 125th birthday in July ... I see you've both been editing this this year, any thoughts on whether July would work? - Dank (push to talk) 02:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for the reminder. I'm still good for July. I've been side-tracked over at J.K. Rowling's talk page but need to switch gears & get back here asap. It needs a bit of tidying & receives fairly frequent edits, but generally it looks ok to me. Victoria (tk) 15:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Spanish Civil War section
Hello User:Victoriaearle, you have deleted my entire edit on the Spanish Civil War as, according to you, it was “overly detailed for this article”. I have inspected various WP policies on the level of granularity expected or recommended for various types of articles, but failed to find guidelines appropriate for this case. If you know of any, would be grateful for a link.

For the time being, I do not think my edit was overly detailed.

“This article” contains numerous very detailed sections, which I believe to many readers might be of rather limited importance. For instance, the section „Idaho and suicide”, which deals with the last 2 years of Hemingway’s life, is 881 words and generally appears to be half-way between a medical dictionary and a manual of depression-tackling techniques. I do not think my edit on the Civil War was more unnecessarily detailed than the Idaho piece, let alone few others.

My edit – which including the paragraph written by someone else was 645 words, provides a unique opportunity – which you will not find anywhere else, unless you care to go through 400 pages of Muller – to track exact Hemingway’s whereabouts in Spain (1937-1938). Thanks to it, the reader might judge for oneself whether he saw much or little, how extensive his experience was, and to what degree he might have based his writings on his own observation. Also, my edit allows the reader to realize how extensively Hemingway used to travel: during less than 2 years (actually, in 22 months) he crossed the Atlantic 8 times.

Once you have disposed of my edit, what is left seems rather odd. Currently the section “Spanish Civil War” is more about Hemingway’s relations with Dos Passos, Joris Ivens, and Martha Gelhorn than about what he was doing in Spain. Among very few pieces on his whereabouts one is wrong, namely the claim that in July 1937 Hemingway attended a conference in Valencia (he was in the US at the time). Also the claim that he was “present at the Battle of Ebro” and was “among the last to leave the battle” might mislead the reader to believe that Hemingway saw much of it; in fact, the battle lasted from late July until early November, and he was at the banks of Ebro during few hours on November 5, when it almost over, just to see last Republican troops withdrawing across the river.

Have restored my edit. If you still believe it is too detailed, instead of proceeding to delete it again please comment on this talk page, or if you think it pointless, please resolve to any of the usual methods of sorting out editorial conflicts.

regards, --Hh1718 (talk) 17:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for the ping. Please take a look at BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. You made a bold edit, I reverted. Now we should be discussing to achieve consensus instead of reinstating the edit - which is considered edit warring.


 * Hello User:Victoriaearle. The BRD cycle is an optional strategy, neither a mandatory nor a recommended one. It might be adhered to, and it might be not, in favor of another one. I do not think it is appropriate for this very case. To me, your using BRD looks like “excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes”. I will eleborate further below.


 * Besides, if one opts for BRD, it is recommended that a revert is accompanied with some reasonably meaningful information on its rationale. All you provided was “rvt to previous version b/c new edits are overly detailed for this article, but will find & read muller & try to incorporate in summary style”. First, it repeats your point about my edit having been “overly detailed”, the point I have already addressed on this talk page (please see above) and which you ignored. Second, it advances a rather unusual rule that no edit is valid until you read the source referenced and confirm it. --Hh1718 (talk) 08:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)


 * As to why I reverted:
 * a. this article is a WP:Featured article and needs to adhere to the the criteria. Also it's been scheduled for a main page appearance next month, so I'm working on bringing it into compliance
 * this is extremely vague statement. It explains nothing. Please be precise and give examples of at least some instances when my edit violated specific criteria. --Hh1718 (talk) 08:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * b. citations need to be rendered in a consistent manner. If you could supply bibligraphic info for the two books cited in that section here on the talk page I can reformat per the style used in the article.
 * providing citations in another format is not a justification for sweeping deletion of the entire 650-word section. There are other means available: tagging, pinging the author (i.e. me) or – why not? changing the format yourself. --Hh1718 (talk) 08:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * c. as mentioned in my edit summary I intended to find the books, read them, and rewrite accordingly. I've not gotten to it yet but haven't forgotten.
 * the fact that you have not read Muller yet is no reason whatsoever for deleting an entry of a person who did read Muller, and quoted him extensively. --Hh1718 (talk) 08:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * d. because this is the main biography page it should be written in Summary style. That was my intention when/if I can do the reading (I've been unwell and work very slowly, so apologies in that regard). In my view the material is interesting and anything that doesn't make it onto this page should go to For Whom the Bell Tolls.
 * same as point a. A vague indication pointing to style guideline page is not sufficient to do a sweeping deletion. Please be specific: provide examples and style rules you have in mind. --Hh1718 (talk) 08:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * e. Finally the article needs to adhere to prose and Wikipedia manual of style. There are some MoS (manual of style) issues & prose issues that I may not have the time to address immediately.
 * all right, here I am prepared to concede a point. As a non-native I am perfectly aware that my English might be clumsy here and there. Unless it is all rubbish and needs to be re-written from scratch as barely understandable, why don’t you spent 30 minutes correcting, instead of doing away with the whole piece? --Hh1718 (talk) 08:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I did have every intention of reworking your edit. It needs to adhere to the relevant issues mentioned above. In the meantime, since we're on the cusp of an edit war, now we have to wait for others to weigh as to whether to keep it. If you were to revert yourself for the meantime, if would save a lot of trouble. If not, let's see what other think. Thanks, Victoria (tk) 20:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It is nice you decided to acknowledge my tip that earlier info on Hemingway’s taking part in a Valencia congress of July 1937 is false (though I am not sure on what basis you have acknowledged it, since you say you have not read Muller’s book). However, I disagree with the rest of your sweeping edit, which I consider heavy-handed, backed by very vague references to unspecified criteria, and inconsistent. I am reverting your revert. Grateful to get some specific info from you.


 * And BTW, somehow the section on Cuba got lost on its way, now bundled together with the Spanish Civil War. Not sure whether this was intentional, guess not, presume that in your edit of June 1, 01:53, you incidentally marked too much for deletion. In a separate edit (to make it easier for you to revert it in case that was intentional, in this case apologies) I am restoring the Cuba heading and hence re-separating the pre-war Cuba section (in the new convention you have introduced in June).


 * regards,--Hh1718 (talk) 08:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * please don't reinstate that version. At this point that's edit warring. I'm going through the article to prepare for Today's featured article and changes have been made throughout. Furthermore I've checked books out of the library that are Hemingway biographies as opposed to a history of the Spanish Civil War to redo the section and to be able to save some of your edits.Pinging as a head's up re a slow edit war here. Please advise, because it can't go to the main page during an edit war? Victoria (tk) 13:17, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, how can I help? - Dank (push to talk) 13:32, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you explain that FAs need to adhere to the criteria, which this edit does not. I'm in the process of addressing the concerns & rewriting, but am slow. Edit warring in preferred versions creates instability & if that continues then we can't run it in July. Thanks. Victoria (tk) 13:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * , this stuff is complicated and there are a lot of different things to think about and rules to follow. Please make changes in smaller steps with more discussion. Victoria, the TFA is your call. - Dank (push to talk) 13:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'd like it run. I'm taking on board that the Spanish Civil War section needs work & am beginning work in my sandbox but health interfered again & I needed a few days off. I'm about to invoke FA own, because I don't think the comments above assume good faith. I am trying & trying to make it perfect. Victoria (tk) 14:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, since the TFAs have to be added in chronological order, I'll go ahead and add this one ... but if things go sideways, TFAs can always be pulled. Let me know. - Dank (push to talk) 13:01, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks Dank. I hope it will be fine. I've rewritten that section and there's one more book on order from the library that should arrive next week. There are only a few more sections to get through & there's plenty of time. Fingers crossed that I don't have to take too many more extended breaks. Victoria (tk) 15:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Section headings
I intentionally combined Spanish Civil War with Cuba, but only called the section Spanish Civil War, because there is already a Cuba section further down, rather than as messaged above And BTW, somehow the section on Cuba got lost on its way, now bundled together with the Spanish Civil War. Not sure whether this was intentional, guess not, presume that in your edit of June 1, 01:53, you incidentally marked too much for deletion. It was intentional but temporary. See this version of the article, where the Spanish Civil War & WWII are combined, which probably how it will end up once I've finished with ongoing work here. It's important that we keep these articles from getting too long & adding sections tends to invite additional detail. Victoria (tk) 23:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Image
the image File:Ernest Hemingway with Soviet and German intellectuals Ilya Ehrenburg and Gustav Regler, possibly working on the propaganda film The Spanish Earth, Spain, 1937. (25888498228).jpg has two problems. First there is no source to check whether it's free to use (i.e in the public domain) and second it's colorized. The file cites Cassowary Colorizations as author. If that's true, then we can't use it. If the original black & white can be found and if it's free, then we can use that image. Victoria (tk) 23:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Verification
Per Verifiability the citation following the text must verify it. This sentence, (cited to Mellow, page 488) In 1937-1938 Hemingway 4 times traveled for Spain to cover its Civil War for the North American Newspaper Alliance (NANA), despite Pauline's reluctance to have him work in a war zone. has been changed from n 1937, Hemingway traveled for Spain to cover its Civil War for the North American Newspaper Alliance (NANA), despite Pauline's reluctance to have him work in a war zone. A quick check shows that Mellow p. 488 doesn't mention the four times. That's not to say that the four times isn't important to add but it can't be added to a sentence unless the citation for that sentence verifies it. I will be fixing this issue. Victoria (tk) 23:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:FAOWN
Please see WP:FAOWN which says:

Per FAOwn I've reverted again and will rewrite the entire section in a sandbox and then paste it back here. I now have a copy of Muller, and will be using that, as well as other biographies. The following information needs to go into that small section: the four trips, the film, the play, the novel, the new relationship with Martha Gellhorn, etc. etc. It's best to get it right and I'd prefer not to have to do it in mainspace. Thanks, Victoria (tk) 23:57, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello Hello User:Victoriaearle, as it does not seem we are likely to reach an agreement, I have resolved to RfC. regards, --Hh1718 (talk) 12:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Rfc about detailed Hemingway's whereabouts during Spanish Civil War
Should the section Spanish Civil War contain the below paragraphs? For details and arguments exchanged, please see above --Hh1718 (talk) 12:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)


 * "On February 27, 1937 Hemingway sailed for Europe, on March 16 he flew from Toulouse to Barcelona, and few days later via Valencia he drove to Madrid. From there he made visits to the frontline at Sierra de Guadarrama, the Jarama and Brihuega. In early April he witnessed combat at Casa de Campo and was again at the Jarama, in Morata de Tajuña and Fuentidueña de Tajo, while later that month he was again at the Guadarrama. On May 3 he boarded a plane provided by the government and flew directly to Paris. He then spent around a week in France before boarding the Normandie for return voyage to New York.


 * In late August 1937 aboard the French liner Hemingway made it across the Atlantic to France. On September 6 he flew from Paris to Barcelona and then to Valencia, and in mid-September he toured the Aragon frontline near Belchite. Later he visited the guerilla training camp in Benimamet and still in September he spent few days on the Teruel front. By the end of the month he was in Madrid. In early October he visited Brunete. The next few weeks were spent in the capital, with some appearances on Ciudad Universitaria and Usera sections of the frontline. In mid-December he drove to the Teruel again, witnessing the Republican offensive until he was able to enter the city. He then shuttled between Valencia and Teruel. Hemingway spent the Christmas and New York period in Barcelona, before leaving for Paris in early January 1938. On January 12 he boarded Gripsholm and returned to the US.


 * Aboard Île de France Hemingway arrived in Cherbourg in late March 1938, and on March 31 he drove from Perpignan to Barcelona. In early April he visited the Aragón front and then the Ebro bend, including Gandesa and Tarragona, before returning to Barcelona. Once the Nationalists broke through to the Mediterranean, he went to the frontline few miles from Vinaròs; in late April a few times he shuttled between Barcelona and the Ebro and was once on the Lerida front. In early May he flew to Marseilles, but returned to Alicante few days later. Via Valencia he approached the Castellón frontline, and on May 9 he again checked into a hotel in Madrid, but there is no information on his trips to the frontline. In late May he flew from Madrid to Paris and on May 25 he boarded Normandie, bound for New York.


 * On August 31 Hemingway, again aboard Normandie, departed US for Cherbourg, but this time he spent in Paris almost 2 months. It was only on November 4 that he flew to Barcelona. The following day he drove to the Ebro, just on time to witness last Republican troops returning to the left bank. He made one tour across Catalonia, but not to the frontlines. On November 7, after just 3 days in Spain, he drove to Perpignan and then travelled to Paris. Following few weeks in Paris, on November 24 he was back in New York. "

--Hh1718 (talk) 12:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Wait. Victoria has indicated above she is working in sandbox, so this RfC is premature. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:59, 20 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment Oppose. I'm still working on it but want to see how the World War II section ends up - another period when he abandoned a wife, gained a wife, and covered a war. The article is 8762 words long, so pushing the limit. And the article has to adhere to Featured article criteria.Basically I still believe the proposed edit gives some unnecessary (undue) detail while leaving out other important events. He went to Spain four times. Twice in 1937 & twice in 1938. During the first trip he worked with Joris Ivens on the filming of The Spanish Earth, which was screened later that summer at the White House for FDR. During the next trip he wrote his only play. The 1938 trips resulted in For Whom the Bell Tolls, which he didn't start until March 1939. Also during these years he was traveling & basically living with Martha Gellhorn & his relationship with Pauline was ending. He left his home in Key West after the final Spain trip & moved to Cuba. Finally I kept in and bulked up the trip to China w/ Martha because the geopolitics are important and lead directly to the outbreak of WWII. I have not used Muller to source the entire section because these events are discussed in other biographies as well.I believe all these events need to be mentioned in the main biography. I've left out but would like to fit in the exessive drinking while at home in Key West, the verbal abuse, the episodes of violence, plus much about getting The Fifth Column staged - eventually published in a volume of short stories - all quite well presented in Muller.It's difficult and not necessary (though interesting) to add the specific details of the traveling from place to place, via ship, plane, car. In terms of battles, the article does include Belchite/Teruel/Ebro.Muller is a really good source about an important period for Hemingway, a period that informed, in my opinion, his best work. I'm wondering whether we might want to split off a subarticle, Ernest Hemingway during the Spanish Civil War?In the meantime, I'm doing the best I can. If Hh1718 wants the text exactly as written in the RfC, then we'll have to let the RfC go forward & see what happens. Victoria (tk) 16:30, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The WWII section is now finished & the two sections "Spanish Civil War" and "World War II" come in at about the same word count (656 & 674), it makes sense not to add much more detail in the Spanish Civil War section, per Summary style. Victoria (tk) 21:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose as currently suggested (which is the only thing available to !vote on here). Let's see what the sandboxed version looks like. - SchroCat (talk) 17:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I seem not to have been clear. I reworked the section, added the requested source, and it's all back in mainspace now (actually, I've been working in mainspace). Victoria (tk) 17:26, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, don't I feel a bit silly now! - SchroCat (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, to be honest it's kinda hidden in the very long comment above where the rationale for what should be in & what out is delineated. Plus I've not been communicating well recently. Once I'm through the entire article I'll swing through that section again, but do not support the inclusion of text above as written. Victoria (tk) 18:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2024
Change: "A family friend Hemingway him a job in Toronto, and with nothing else to do, he accepted." To: "A family friend offered Hemingway a job in Toronto, and with nothing else to do, he accepted." NormanCS (talk) 22:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)


 * ✅ Peaceray (talk) 23:57, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2024
Wababababobo (talk) 21:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC) remove this message below ( find where it is in the page)

He also often used bilingual puns and crosslingual wordplay as stylistic devices.[167]

as it is already stated earlier in the page

He also often used bilingual puns and crosslingual wordplay as stylistic devices.[161][162][163]

the source for [167] could be moved over to the earlier stated part Wababababobo (talk) 21:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Fixed. Thanks for catching that. Victoria (tk) 21:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2024
Under the section titled "Cuba and the Nobel Prize" in the fourth paragraph (starting with "While in Africa") the following sentence should be changed to remove an erroneous "broke":

Current: "Hemingway sustained injuries to his back and shoulder; Mary broke sustained broken ribs and went into shock."

Change: "Hemingway sustained injuries to his back and shoulder; Mary sustained broken ribs and went into shock." ZaCurt (talk) 21:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Oops! Thanks for the catch. Fixed now. Victoria (tk) 22:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)