Talk:Ernest Rutherford/Archive 3

Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2018 and 16 September 2019
Change "as a New Zealand-born British physicist who came to be known as the father of nuclear physics" to "as a New Zealand physicist who came to be known as the father of nuclear physics" because calling Rutherford a British scientist is unfair in that he was born, raised, educated to post Bachelor level (at Christchurch University NZ) before moving overseas to further his research. He was a British Subject because all British Commonwealth citizens had that status at that time. Calling him a Britiah physicist is basically an act of colonial imperialist arrogance and frankly insulting to modern New Zealanders. Tuatarafor2 (talk) 04:59, 27 September 2018 (UTC) I agree. It is absolutely uncalled for. I have not seen a single other page for a New Zealander from this era that says "New Zealand-born British."--Aubernas (talk) 08:19, 6 January 2022 (UTC)


 * ❌. This has been discussed to death, see Talk:Ernest Rutherford/Archive 1.  Fish +Karate  10:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Calling for this edit again

Change "as a New Zealand-born British physicist who came to be known as the father of nuclear physics" to "as a New Zealand physicist who came to be known as the father of nuclear physics"

Hasn't been discussed to death. Just added to the discussion.

[following paragraph moved from the archived discussion at /Archive 1- gadfium 04:03, 17 September 2019 (UTC)]

It seems as though his passport status has decided this point. Well why don't we call him a British passport holder then, that's all he was, he was born, raised and educated in the New Zealand culture (however similar it was to the British culture). To describe people's nationality according to their passport status at the time they were born doesn't seem helpful for describing who that person is. As soon as someone is described as British it implies something more than than the right to live somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.84.227.248 (talk • contribs) 02:18, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't think describing someone born, raised and educated in New Zealand as "British" is particularly helpful to the average reader, and quite possibly misleading. This style is also inconsistent with other Wikipedia articles covering scientists from other British colonial territories in the same period, such as Howard Florey (described as "Australian" despite Australian citizenship not existing until 1948) and Frederick Banting (described as "Canadian" although Canadian citizenship did not exist until 1947). It's pretty clear that the consistent approach would be to describe Rutherford as a New Zealander. NathanGriffiths (talk) 21:35, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Another example: the page for the physicist Alessandro Volta describes his nationality as Italian, despite that country not yet existing even at the time of his death.


 * Strongly agree with the above arguments, describing him as “British” due to the fact he was born prior to the formal establishment of a separate New Zealand Citizenship in 1948 is both misleading and entirely inconsistent with just about every Wikipedia article I can find on New Zealand born figures of that period, such as Edmund Hillary, Cyril Bassett , Moana-Nui-a-Kiwa Ngarimu & Robert Muldoon. Using that justification, even people like Mahatma Gandhi and Muhammad Ali Jinnah should be described as being “British”.2A00:23C8:2688:A401:B504:FD2C:9F74:DFDB (talk) 23:40, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you, but it's not helpful that you don't seem to have a proper WP profile. if you want to do something about this, you should get involved in the WP process in a proper wayMeitner109 09:20, 8 January 2022 (UTC)


 * ✅Strongly agree. "New Zealand-born British physicist" should be changed to "New Zealand physicist" in both the short description and intro.


 * Dr John Alexander Campbell is a researcher and physicist at the University of Canterbury, New Zealand, Rutherford's Alma Mater. Campbell is the author of Rutherford Scientist Supreme (in print), Rutherford's Ancestors (in print), and www.rutherford.org.nz, and the producer of the 3-hour documentary Rutherford, which was awarded an Education and Communication Award from the Canadian Nuclear Society in 2012. Campbell has several other awards for communicating science to the general public and was an originator of the Rutherford Den, and the organiser of the Rutherford Birthplace and the Pickering/Rutherford/Havelock memorial, and initiated and runs the Ask-A-Scientist programme which has seen some 90,000 column-cms of science in New Zealand newspapers. Campbell is quoted in Physics World saying "Today, some eight decades after his death in 1937, the great New Zealander is best known for his discovery in 1911 of the atomic nucleus." Stuff says "Campbell said while he was only able to return home on four occasions after leaving for Europe – he remained a proud New Zealander and made a point to support Kiwi students." In NZ Science Teacher Campbell wrote "Ernest Rutherford is the most famous of all New Zealanders and one of the most illustrious scientists of all time." In Te Ara, The Encyclopedia of New Zealand Campbell wrote "Rutherford declared that he had always been very proud of being a New Zealander." Radio New Zealand says "His biographer, and physicist in his own right, Dr John Campbell says Rutherford was a smart kid, but he was also “just a regular Kiwi kid” who grew up on a farm and played rugby" and RNZ also wrote "New Zealand atomic physicist Ernest Rutherford during a visit home to New Zealand in 1926."


 * New Zealand Geographic says "New Zealander Ernest Rutherford and his colleagues at the prestigious Cavendish Laboratory no doubt would have preferred a more sober vehicle than Reynolds’s to convey this triumph of British physics to the world at large." and "There were good reasons for the New Zealander’s choice of institution" and "With his big frame, a booming voice and the air of a colonial farmer, the straight-talking New Zealander was difficult to ignore."


 * The University of Cambridge's Cavendish Laboratory, that Rutherford was Director of, says "Lord Rutherford was already a much-respected figure. A big, bluff and hearty New Zealander, I found him friendly and helpful."


 * The New Zealand Government's New Zealand History says "He is the only New Zealander to have an element – rutherfordium – named in his honour."


 * In The Penguin History of New Zealand, Michael King wrote "Rutherford, unable to find a permanent job as a schoolteacher, had left the country in 1895 to seek further opportunities abroad and in 1908 become the first New Zealander awarded the Nobel Prize".


 * Other books to call Rutherford a New Zealander in its title or Te Puna summary include: Lord Rutherford of Nelson : a tribute to New Zealand's greatest scientist, Rutherford : the story of a Kiwi genius : national education resource, Ernest Rutherford ("the life and career of New Zealand physicist"), Four great New Zealand scientists, Atoms, dinosaurs & DNA : 68 great New Zealand scientists,, New Zealand's top 100 history-makers, as well as the video Rutherford of Nelson ("the life of the famous New Zealand scientist") by the New Zealand National Film Unit.


 * E James Bowman (talk) 04:08, 16 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Wonderful how you've ended this debate with facts, thanks E James. Typical of Wiki editors to spend so much time getting tribal about nationality when the article itself was a complete chop and change disaster. I've re-organised it, so this brilliant scientist can have his story told with grace. Wherever he was born, lol. You Brits are too proprietary about your dead empire. Billyshiverstick (talk) 06:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2023
I would like to add Zhang Wenyu to Ernest Rutherford's doctoral students list. ttkk (talk) 09:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅ using source from Zhang Wenyu's article. P.S. it's a bit confusing that the name in your signature seems to have nothing to do with your username. small jars 13:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I have added another source in English from Physics Today. Dirac66 (talk) 17:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

McGill + personal life
The very brief paragraph starting on McGill appointment opens with talking about his proposed appointment (nothing explicit on actual acceptance or start date), enabling marriage (non-sequitur), getting married in NZ (before he went to McGill?), child born, who the child married, grad studies in NZ (before or after or during McGill?), and work at Cambridge (presumably after McGill?).

Wow, what a confused mess for someone trying to understand his career that sadly I cannot untangle. I will add to this Talk page the following link that at answers the one question I had, namely, when did he start at McGill and when did he leave: 1898 to 1907 based on this source (https://www.mcgill.ca/historicalcollections/departmental/ernest-rutherford#:~:text=The%20Rutherford%20Museum%20contains%20the,at%20McGill%20from%201898%2D1907.) 24.224.227.214 (talk) 14:11, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I found the same. The lead is terrible too. I'm going to try and fix this shortly. Thanks for digging up the dates. Good thing they put the photo on the main page. For a major scientist, the article is poorly written. Billyshiverstick (talk) 04:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I had a right go at this article. It flows in time, through his accomplishments. So many times in Wikipedia, people do the wonderful service of dropping facts into articles. Then people like me come along after and fix the writing. cheers Billyshiverstick (talk) 06:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:Sir Ernest_Rutherford_LCCN2014716719_-_restoration1.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for June 12, 2023. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2023-06-12. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 22:45, 3 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Because you selected the picture, and it was such a good photo, I gave the article a read, and discovered it was a horrible chop and change mess. I spent 1/2 an hour re-organising it to standard format. Thank you for posting the picture! I feel very satisfied that a great scientist is better represented now. Yay team. Billyshiverstick (talk) 06:09, 12 June 2023 (UTC)