Talk:Ernst Kretschmer

Untitled
"Ernst Kretschmer was a psychiatrist who had been directly involved in the Nazi T-4 Euthanasia Program." Please, tell me the source. rainbowfish german wiki (84.182.201.84)


 * Here are a couple:
 * 1. Ideology Ideology and ethics. The perversion of German psychiatrists’ ethics by the ideology of National Socialism. by L. Singer, Eur. Psychiatry 1998
 * 2. Un apercu sur la psychiatrie sociale allemande en 1934. by J. Bieder, Ann. Med. Psychol. 1996
 * Actually the statement in not completely accurate. I apologize for not going into detail. What should be noted is Kretschmer's involvement in preparing psychiatrists for application of the Third Reich's laws governing the euthanasia. Interesting also to note is that Kretschmer contradicted his own actions by later protesting these laws (This part I am not sure about).
 * --AI 8 July 2005 21:37 (UTC)

Nazi Involvement
There is no evidence that he supported Nazis as scientist or as man - and quite some to the contrary. Therefore I removed the vague allegations and the according categories.

If you have some sources stating that he did actually work for the Nazis then you have to give exact quote including source - and I'll add some of my counter-statements below. But even then the matter is too controversial to be categorized accordingly. --Irmgard 10:56, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no documented evidence he worked for the Nazis. Kretschmer was teaching at a German university from 1919 on, so he sure had among his students guys who later on worked for the third Reich - but that's no evidence for his own involvement. Some of his books have already in the 1920s been translated to English and been used in teaching in England and the US (and are until today regarded as important contributions to psychotherapy).


 * Kretschmer resigned immediately for political reasons from the prestigious presidency of the AÄPG when it came under Nazi control - this is a proven fact.


 * He was a military physician (not psychiatrist) during World War I and studied hysteria during that time - nothing to do with Nazis.


 * His association with the Nazis in a book has been qualified als "misrepresentation of facts"

--Irmgard 10:56, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Also Lifton says * Of course, other secular psychiatrists took stands, in one way or another, against direct medical killing. They included Kurt Schneider (to be distinguished in every way from Carl Schneider [see pages 122-23]), Ernst Kretschmer, and Professor Karl Kleist, an internist with some psychiatric experience, who was described by an interviewed doctor as having mentioned in a lecture his refusal to join a “euthanasia” commission (see page 39).

Source for my additions: German Wikipedia. --Irmgard 10:56, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Good work Irmgard. --AI 02:07, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Your restore sounds illogical: before 1933 there existed no Nazi racial hygiene laws (or any other Nazi laws) and 1933 Kretschmer protested against them. The only possible conclusions from your sentence would be that Kretschmer either did preview them in a glass ball or that he was part of a conspiracy to prepare them and later changed mind. It needs to be clarified what exactly is meant and the allegation needs to be assigned to a precises source: (X alleged in book Y that Kretschmer did Z). A general reference is not enough for NPOV in such a case. --Irmgard 06:53, 28 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I know. We need to look at the months of 1933 more closely. I will try to get more information. --AI 18:36, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

BTW the T4 program (which is not the same as the racial hygiene laws) was not started 1933 but 1939 or 1940. --Irmgard 06:56, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

1933
Here some information about 1933:

Source: Gleichschaltung
 * When the newly-elected Reichstag first convened on March 23, 1933, (not including the Communist delegates, since their party had already been banned by that time) it passed the Enabling Act (Ermächtigungsgesetz), transferring all legislative powers to the Nazi government

Source: Racial policy of Nazi Germany
 * 1. April 1933 Boycott Jewish doctors, lawyers, and stores were boycotted. Only 6 days later, the "Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service" was passed, banning Jews from government jobs. ... However, in the years 1935-1936, persecution of the Jews increased apace. In May 1935, Jews were forbidden to join the Wehrmacht (the army), and in the summer of the same year, anti-Jewish propaganda appeared in Nazi-German shops and restaurants. The Nuremberg Laws were passed around the time of the great Nazi rallies at Nuremberg; on September 15th 1935 the "Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honor" was passed, preventing marriage between any Jew and non-Jew.

Source. History of the AÄGP: :
 * Aus der Machtübernahme durch die Nationalsozialisten im Jahr 1933 und die darauffolgende nationalsozialistische Gleichschaltung ergaben sich auch für die AÄGP verheerende Folgen. Kretschmer zog Anfang April 1933 die persönliche Konsequenz und legte sein Amt aus politischen Gründen nieder. (... Kretschmer resigned his position [as president of the AÄGP] beginning of April 1933 for political reasons.)

So the Gleichschaltung (= beginning of legislative power of the Nazis) was decided March 23, 1933, the first Nazi racial law passed on April 7, 1933 and Kretschmer resigned beginning of April 1933. --Irmgard 19:21, 29 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I'll remove mention of Krestchmer training psychiatrists for these laws. However, other sources have indicated that he did train psychiatrists for those laws, so there are contradictory stories. We should look more closely at the days and exactly what Krestchmer did. There may have been some revisionism, either trying to make Krestchmer look guilty or trying to cover up his involvement. Who knows? Revisionists?... :) --AI 19:47, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I removed "Kretschmer assisted in training psychiatrists for application of the Third Reich's laws governing racial hygiene" from the article. I think it should stay off the article unless someone can clarify his involvement. --AI 19:51, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, AI. A possible explanation why Kretschmer got connected with Nazi racial laws: Schizophrenia
 * In the first half of the twentieth century, schizophrenia was considered by many as a "hereditary defect", and people with schizophrenia became the target of the eugenics programs of many countries. Hundreds of thousands were forcibly sterilized, the majority in Germany, the United States, and various Scandinavian countries.

I have no access on the text of his works, but it is very probable that Kretschmer also saw schizophrenia (and other mental illnesses) as hereditary (this sort of thinking was then "in", not only in Germany). He sure was an authority on the subject of mental illness and had published a lot in the twenties, so it is well possible, that he was quoted somewhere in the discussion of the racial laws. But anyone can be quoted in any text - that does not infer that he agrees with the text (as an example, Stephen Kent quotes L. Ron Hubbard several times - do you this proves that Hubbard agrees with Kent? ;-) ) --Irmgard 20:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Dysplastic?
What of the dysplastic body type that his work also involved? Nagelfar 17:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Link
The Article on Temperament and on 4 types described by Hipokrates should have links to this page on Kretschmer or to his discoveries. Though he was a disgusting Nazi, his types like asthenic or pyknic arę an invention of Great value and his classification of human types ought to be integrated with other articles while dissociated from his biography - which ca standard as it is even if the details of his work arę moved elsewhere. 83.24.253.38 (talk) 23:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

An Error
The forearm of the male Athletic type can not be 91.5 cm. Look at the other types or the female Athletic type. אביהו (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2023 (UTC)