Talk:Erotic lactation/Archive 1

=Talk:Milk fetishism Archive=

Article replaced
The entire useable article content is moved to Erotic lactation now. Therefore this page isn't longer needed as I think and therefore I've set the Redirector to Erotic lactation. If any of You like do add or change something, please do this at the new page. The new article has been (compared with the old one) completely restructured, but as much as possible content of the old article is included. Important for the new article was, to get it more scientific and to overcome speculative statements. For example any psychoanalytic theory is highly problematic... Many Thanks to all people who layed the foundations with the old article and all the people who helped to create and correct the new one, which has a very good quality now as I think. --Fritz Bollmann 08:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Article replacement
This article is planned to become a simple forwarder to the article Erotic Lactation. For expansions, corrections and so on use the article Erotic Lactation only.

--Fritz Bollmann 11:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I have been following this discussion with intrest, both here and on the Yahoo group SNClist. I support the terminology "Erotic Lactation" as a more accurate term for this type of activity. This is not a disease and should not be described as such here. Read the comment on Adult Breastfeeding and Survival to learn more. Mlklvr 11:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Generic term discussion
In some Yahoo groups there was a longer discusion concerning to the -fetishism and -philia terms, for example in groups.yahoo.com/group/snclist/. The terms fetishism and -philia as well as Paraphilia describe disorders in scientific use. According to DSM-IV and ICD-10 "-fetish" and "-philia" (as well as Paraphilia) for adult breastfeeding doesn't match the requirements of the DSM-IV and ICD-10 definitions. The result is, the terms are misused and suggest a disorder in public use, which is not wished.

Therefore there was a longer discussion about a usefull replacement word in the discussion groups. After words such as "adlactation" and similiar have been refused in the german Wikipedia, as an alternative now the term "Erotic lactation"/"Erotic breastfeeding" is used. See here: "Erotisches Stillen". All (?) woman and men involed in erotic breastfeeding and both experts estimated this as the best possible term.

I urge You to change any -philia and -fetish word to erotic breastfeeding or erotic lactation as fast as possible.

Thank You, Fritz Bollmann :-)

Article renaming
Could the article have a better title? "Milk fetishism" was probably an accurate title when the original text was merely a stub as a logical link from another section, but the article has grown. Suggestions? If anything to disambiguate it from other kinds of milk. The idea here is that this is something female women do, not something you pick up at the shops.


 * I think you're missing the grammar of the article title. "Fetishism" is the noun being modified by the adjective "milk." What you are suggesting is that milk fetishism might be confused with almond milk or breast milk. I think the nature of the titles makes it clear what is being discussed. Besides, there is already precedent for the current title. (see shoe fetishism or balloon fetishism) - CloudedIce 08:14, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The object of the fetish refered in the article is the act of breastfeeding, not the milk. Is not the same as with shoe or baloons where the center of the fetish is the object perse, shoes or baloons. Here there is no response to the milk alone, but to the act of breastfeeding. I think that the article should be renamed adult Breastfeeding fetishism. ---TerminusX 05:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "Lactation fetish" may be a better name, according to Google
 * "breastfeeding fetish": 664 pages
 * "lactation fetish": 32,300 pages
 * "milk fetish": 15,600 pages.
 * These phrases are just off the top of my head; if anyone else has some additional possible names, please add them. The Honorable 19:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

See above - Paraphilia or fetish is misused by the definition of these terms. In Germany they are not longer used and replaced by "Erotic Breastfeeding" or "Erotic Lactation". Same discussin in the (english) SNCLIST group. -Fritz Bollmann

As a participant in an Adult Nursing Relationship, I strenuously object to the -fetish language. In fact, when my partner & I are nursing, it is a non-sexual activity....while being very intimate & sensual, we rarely begin or follow up a nursing session with intercourse. I would prefer a simple generic term such as "Adult Nursing Relationships" or "Adult Breastfeeding Relationship" to allow information about the non-erotic/non-sexual side of the ANR to be appreciated.---S.B.

Only someone who is ignorant about the nature of Adult Breastfeeding or an Adult Nursing Relationship could classify it as a fetish. The emphasis is on ADULT, there is nothing infantile about it when consenting adults engage in breastfeeding. It's simply a way to reach more intense intimacy with or without sex. It's not about milk or being a baby, but about sharing more, sharing on a deeper level. Someone who is not familiar with the practice whould not be able to define it.--Christine T.

Adult Breastfeeding & Survival
I think there should be a seperate or expanded topic on "Adult Nursing Relationships" or "Adult Breastfeeding" commonly referred to as ANR or ABF in the on-line groups that support them, like the SNC, the Society of Nursing Couples. I have written "Successful Adult Nursing" and "Successful Nursing Techniques" which is posted on their website. There is a lot of information available on this subject, both fact and fiction. I would like to contribute, but it appears that I am involved in original research, which is prohibited on this site.

There is a segment of the Adult Nursing Community who believe Adult Breastfeeding dates back to the early development of the human species, and that maintaining a lactation response within an Adult Nursing Relationship is not as difficult as believed.

The theory is that primitive men sought lactating women for supplemental nourishment during seasonal or winter famine; and that women maintained their milk supply for most of their adult lives. Women store fat easier than men, women have slower metabolisms than men, and women can initiate lactation independent of pregnancy or childbirth. This theory embraces the metabolic differences between men and women and gives a lone male hunter a practical survival reason for keeping and protecting a woman in the wilderness. It ties details of lactation, bonding, fertility, pregnancy, miscarriage, childbirth and infant mortality into the overall survival equation. It promotes the notion that Adult Breastfeeding is a survival tool unique to our species and is more about survival instincts and bonding than it is about sexual gratification or fetish. It also explains why human females have enlarged breasts, why men are attracted to female breasts, why lactation promotes infertility, why women often have too much milk after childbirth, and why the emotions generated within Adult Nursing Relationships are so powerful. If this theory is viable, then there is room for another topic. go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snclist/ to learn more. Mlklvr 11:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Transitional psychology
Some addressing of transitional ideation in the "whore/madonna" complex could improve the female motivation section; as women become parents of newborns, ejecting milk during the recomencement of sexual activity often happens. Some women are embarassed by it while others embrace it as an expression of a more fully expressed female sexuality that bridges states of mind. The focus of the article should be less about mechanics. It is common for husbands and wives to lose interest in sex with each other, their marriages becoming fairly asexual, once the children are born. The article should address how lactation can empower women to bridge multiple states of gendered identity in their own minds, the worst prisons in which men keep them.


 * I agreee with changing the focus of the article. Specific steps for inducing lactation and the drugs that assist in lactation probably are more suited in the lactation article itself, especially since that article is lacking in content. - CloudedIce 08:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * On second thought, it might just be better to remove those last three sections altogether. Most, if not all, of the information in the last two sections is located in the breastfeeding article, and the "stimulating lactation" section does not belong in Wikipedia. Afterall, wikipedia is not an instruction manual. However, I think that would be acceptable if someone wanted to put a link to instructions on stimulating lactation in the external links section. - CloudedIce 08:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion
The section on gender idenfication for women at the top could use some expanding and general development.

Non-existent diseases?
The article claims Reglan causes Tardive Dyskinesia, Acute Dystonic Reaction andExtrapyramidal Symptoms but Wikipedia has no entries on this subject.


 * While there may not be Wikipedia articles about it (haven't looked for myself, I'm just taking your word for it), a quick google search turned up confirmation that it may indeed cause all of those. I'll add in a quick link, but try to clean it up later. - CloudedIce 08:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

re Deletion of "how to" info & Groups

 * Wikipedia does not generally provide "how to" information, nor give medical advice. Therefore it certainly should not be advising on dosage of medications (i.e. Domperdone or Metoclopramide) that is off-label used (a term normally meaning a doctor prescribing for an indication other than that licensed for, rather than the public obtaining without a prescription).
 * As to comments on types of pumps, like all information in wikipedia it must be possible to WP:Cite from WP:Reliable sources to WP:Verify, remember policy WP:No original research.
 * Wikipedia is not a contact forum, and blogs or discussion forums are generally inappropriate to link to. I guess Tregoweth reverted back to 85.210.13.95 for their same reason of "remove yahoo group spam" - remember generally one should not add links to site one is either the author of involved with personally: WP:Reliable source states "A personal website (either operated by one individual or a group of individuals) or blog" ... "should not be used as secondary sources". Multiple such links to yahoo groups seems to be in breach of "Adding many links to (or mentions of) the same site or product" under WP:Spam
 * Linking to it is not the same as using it as a source for the article, which is what it's acutally talking about. I have seen may links to blogs on Wikipedia. As for the same site arguably they are NOT the same site, they're different groups that happen to use the same (free) server. Anon! 13:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Fact tags are inserted when a fact or assertion needs a citation (from a reliable source) to verify. Please do not remove these tags, without addressing the issue (either provide the requested citatiuon verification, or discuss why inappropriate to do so on the talk page first).David Ruben Talk 08:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * But rest of information is your personal statements - as you have failed to cite evidence to support notability of facts (relevant policies as linked above). Merely reverting over another editors request with Fact tags is disruptive.
 * You have now reverted to your version against 3 editors, and to do so within 24hours is in violation of WP:3RR. I had previously posted a welcome message to your talk page that points new users to Five pillars where this is discussed - I have therefore reported the violation.
 * Appology to Anon! - as pointed out on 3RR notification - you had only reverted x3 and so had not broken 3RR limit. David Ruben Talk 01:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC) 
 * Someone else will need to decide for now whether to re-reverted back; as I am both close to 3RR (although technically beyond 24hr) and given I instigated 3RR violation report. David Ruben Talk 19:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add a comment about the how-to info: The article is supposed to be about milk fetishism, not inducing lactation. That's a bit like an article about breast fetishism giving tips on increasing your cleavage&mdash;it's related, but not really the point of the article. &mdash;tregoweth (talk) 01:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think a middle ground would be more appropriate. Some of the how-to aspects of the article appear to be excessive and outside the scope of Wikipedia, but at the same time, it would be of interest to note that metoclopramide has been used (though a reliable source would be helpful in validating this claim).  Andrew73 20:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

mother baby breastfeeding
What about guys who have a thing for watching women breastfeed their babies? Are these guys dangerous? --Gbleem 16:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Answer: No.

Sez who?
The article states "It is not uncommon for heterosexual women to experiment with nursing." Do we have a citation for this?


 * what girl doesn't like their tits being sucked in sex? ha.

Merge from Erotic Lactation
I vote yes. Both articles seem to discuss essentially the same thing, though the Erotic Lactation article is rather poorly written. Whatever it adds to the topic might as well be included here. Robotman1974 19:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No, the opposite way!!! - As mentioned above we are just on to move from Milk fetishism to Erotic Lactation. Therefore: Why Your present suggestion?! Please please read the articles and their discussions because Your desire is very counterproductive in content.
 * The term (lemma) reasons are mentioned above. The terms Milk fetishism (and Lactophilia) don't match the regulations DSM-IV and ICD-10 and are therefore unacceptable in scientific use. The term Erotic Lactation in contrast fits to all requirements, is useable as generic term and neutral above. It was a long way to this term.
 * Some of You know me and my research from the SNCLIST. The "Milk fetishism" article has some bigger quality problems not only in the term but both in content. One of the problem was the use of speculative statements and explanations. The new Erotic Lactation article is currently shorter, but much more accurately, more systmaticly and so on and will expand in next future. The reason for the current initial misspelling is: I'm not a native english-speaker. But on the other hand I know a lot about erotic lactation and it's research. Periodicly native-english people will help to correct my misspellings.
 * Special thanks from me to TerminusX, The Honorable, CloudedIce, Mlklvr, Anon!, David Ruben, tregoweth, Andrew73 and all nameless authors and discussing people.
 * --Fritz Bollmann 20:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems that at most a renaming of this article had been discussed. I can't see that a consensus of any kind was reached on that.  If the article is to be renamed however, than it is being done the wrong way.  The entire article must be moved to another title in order to preserve both the content and edit history and discussion.  I do not know enough about moving articles to say much more, so I will ask for help on this issue. Robotman1974 20:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Please see Help:Moving a page for more information. Robotman1974 20:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Good that it's possible to speak ;-) - Moving the article isn't the best choose here. It was good to start an article about this subject, but sometimes it's better to demolish a house, then to renovate it. The new approach is more scientific-empiric with leaving room for other wishes, the existing old article rather hardly to adapt for this. Both is true for the discussion page. Most content (term discusions) becomes superfluous and the other hints can be done or are simply to copy. I think, the result will be much better in this way.
 * BTW: Sorry or the hard words, I was terrified - but this is superfluous because You are not one of the guys who shoot and disappear ;-)
 * --Fritz Bollmann 21:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Regardless of which title this topic is under, it is good to see that it's getting some of the work it deserves. I have to disagree with your house demolition analogy though.  As far as I understand it, starting new articles and deleting old ones to update information is opposite from the way things are done on Wikipedia.  There are many issues regarding the edit history and related discussions that make Wikipedia's standard page moving policy very important to adhere to.  I don't doubt that your intentions are to improve this topic, but it must be done according to the methods already agreed upon by the community of Wikipedia editors.  Please read Help:Moving a page to familiraise yourself with the policy.  I will do the same. Robotman1974 22:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

What's the problem?! - The article Erotic Lactation is fabulous better! --visitora


 * Please re-read my comments above. My objection is not with the title or the article contents but with the way the move is being handled. I've made additional comments here. Robotman1974 22:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The article Erotic Lactation has now been re-written in its entirety. It makes far better reading than before. And it gives links to additional source material, which the article Milk fetishism does give not. However, some valuable material from the Milk fetishism article could be included into the Erotic Lactation article. Amarcora 03:02, 12 October 2006

Request for comment
I have posted a request at Requests for comment/Society, law, and sex. Robotman1974 13:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi - From the talk pages, I gather that there are a few issues under discussion here, but I'm not exactly clear on which of those issues you'd like comment on - the possible merger, or issues with procedure and style? --Badger151 02:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The main issue I see that needs an outside comment is that the creation of the new page seems to be a way of moving Milk fetishism to Erotic Lactation. Recent changes - which I reverted - to the Paraphilia template show that this new article is indeed meant to replace the old one.  I think that two essentially duplicate pages aren't needed, and that this should be done first as a page move, then as a re-write of the article - all according to Wikipedia standards.  I approve of the enthusiasm and initiative that Fritz Bollmann has for improving this topic, but I do take issue with the way it's being done.  Some statements he has made, such as "This article is planned to become a simple forwarder to the article Erotic Lactation. For expansions, corrections and so on use the article Erotic Lactation only." and "...sometimes it's better to demolish a house, then to renovate it." lead me to believe that Fritz is unfamiliar with Wikipedia's page move policies and the important reasons behind them.   I also fear that my intent is being misunderstood, and so I will restate again here that I do not object to the content of the articles or to the new title of "Erotic lactation" that has been proposed.  In fact, once the page move issue has been settled I can even assist in correcting grammar and spelling to help give the writing a more encyclopedic tone.  Right now, some of the issues I had with style appear to be getting worked on by other editors, with the notable exception of the article's title.  Specifically concerning that, am I right to say that the "L" should not be capitalised?  Thank you for your assistance Badger151. Robotman1974 16:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Copy-and-pasted from Naming conventions:"Convention: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne and Art Nouveau, but not Computer Game)."Based on this, I'd say that yes, unless erotic lactation generally has both words capitalized, then the proper title format would be Erotic lactation. More importantly, the wiki software, when faced with a multi-word link, will only capitalize the first letter of the first word when looking for the associated page.  Consider Erotic Lactation as compared to Erotic lactation and erotic lactation; only the first link connects to the page.  Capitalizing lactation will therefor create persistant linking issues (most likely a redirect page, though piped links would also probably be used) which will be frustrating for future editors.  Finally, because of the convention, if the article title has lactation capitalized, then future editors may decapitalize lactation simply because they assume that the capitalization is an unintentional error.  This will of course have to be reverted, so the maintenance of the page will be more complicated.
 * Am I correct in my understanding that no one objects to moving the "Milk fetishism" article to "Erotic lactation"? Am I further correct in my understanding that the issues are 1)the capitalization of the page's title, and 2)the way the move is being done?  If this is the case, then I'll say that a history of page edits is very important in Wikipedia, as is the maintenance of the the associated talk pages.  Replacement of one article with another doesn't allow for this to happen, so an article name change is typically done instead.  At this point, though, we have two pages, so a merger might be better.  If this is done, I would want to be sure to connect this talk page with that of "Erotic lactation", either by a link or by a clearly labeled copy-and-paste (maybe all of the copied text could be in another color, for instance, with this explained at the top of the section). --Badger151 20:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * To answer the question "Am I correct in my understanding that no one objects to moving the "Milk fetishism" article to "Erotic lactation"?", I believe yes. I have no objections and from what I can see none of the current editors of these pages do either.  To answer your next question, again yes.  Those are basically my concerns.  At this point, since Erotic Lactation seems to be steadily growing, I would now have no objection to Milk fetishism being merged into it, rather than the other way around as I first suggested.  Since the policy on naming conventions is quite clear, I think that the new page Erotic lactation should now be created and the entire article Erotic Lactation be moved there and that page left as a redirect page.  I will see what I can do about making sure the talk pages are clearly linked.  Thanks for your help. Robotman1974 20:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. Catch me on my talk page if I can be of further help. --Badger151 18:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Oops - the instructions at the Request for Comment page say that we should remove this page from the list when things are settled. Are we in a position to do that? --Badger151 23:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I believe we are. Thanks again. Robotman1974 23:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

=Talk:Erotic lactation Archive=

Links to Online survey: Yes or not?
Today I tried to add the following links:


 * Online survey Heterosexual men: Whould you drink the breastmilk of your wife (girl-friend)?
 * Online survey Heterosexual woman: Would you let your husband or friend drink your breastmilk?
 * Online survey Lesbians: Would you drink the breastmilk of your wife (truelove) or would you let drink her your breastmilk?

MaxSem deleted these links with the hint we should first discuss to add the links. OK, let's do this. Both links go to one and the same survey which asks the generic attitude about Erotic lactation. The survey has a direct relationship to the article Erotic lactation and it's current result (You can have a look at them) is as much interesting as the british survey just mentioned in the article. OK, question: Add the links or not? --Fritz Bollmann 12:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, after about 2 weeks of no contradiction I have finally added the survey links to the link section. BTW: Have a look at them, it's quite interesting. --Fritz Bollmann 14:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Founding Erotic lactation and merging from Milk fetishism
Please see Talk:Milk fetishism for discussion regarding the renaming and merger of these articles. Robotman1974 21:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Founding

I have made this page as a direct replacement for the Milk fetishism page. The term reasons You can read in the article. But above the quality of the "Milk fetishism" article isn't the best, especially the explanation attempts are often speculation. It's better to stay descriptively and to mention explanations only, if halfway verified.

Because I'm not a native english-speaker the initial article may be full of spelling mistakes: Please help to correct it.

--Fritz Bollmann 11:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I have modified the ANR paragraph to convey your message in a more precise way. I hope the edit it acceptable. I support the founding of "Erotic Lactation" as a better alternative to the term "Milk Fetishism" which many women find offensive. Mlklvr 14:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank You!

The article Erotic lactation has now been re-edited in its entirety. Hope it will communicate its message better now. Amarcora 03:08, 12 October 2006 (EST)

Former article "Milk fetishism"

Many thanks to all authors of the "Milk fetishism" article. Unfortunately it was necessary to move fast from "Milk fetishism" to "Erotic Lactation" because some people don't read the articles and their discussion pages, but make gashing counterproductive hints. In this case it was the wish to change from "Erotic Lactation" to "Mik fetishism" while we are on to change in the opposite way. Reading the article content whould help, but...

Special thanks to TerminusX, The Honorable, CloudedIce, Mlklvr, Anon!, David Ruben, tregoweth, Andrew73 and all nameless authors and discussing people.

Some of You know me and my research from the SNCLIST. The "Milk fetishism" article had some bigger quality problems not only in the term but both in content. One of the problem was the use of speculative statements ad explanation.

Therefore I have rebuilt the new article completely. Currently the article is relatively short, but will expand in next future.

--Fritz Bollmann 20:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Page move

I have moved the entire Erotic Lactation article to Erotic lactation to conform with naming conventions. I have also removed the "merge to" tag from the top of this page as it is now likely that Milk fetishism will be merged into this article. In addition, I have added Erotic lactation to the Paraphilia template, and added that template to the article. Milk fetishism has been left on the template until the merge of articles has been completed. Robotman1974 21:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Robotman1974: Little by little it becomes a usefull article ;-) Here are some ideas for the next steps:
 * The question is, which part of the Milk fetishism article we can adopt. The true content of the different paragraphs are just included - although in a different way. The rest are (am I right?) some explanation attempts which I whould like to avoid. For example psychoanalysis theories such as the mentioned "Madonna-whore complex", "object transformation", "archetype" are highly problematic and there's no way to prove or confute such a theory.
 * The lesbian dimension is mentioned in a good way now, so that we don't need the according part of the Milk fetishism article.
 * The Oxytocin and Prolactin questions should be discussed either detailed (there are good researches) or not to avoid "esoteric" theories. But this is a good subject for later article expansions.
 * Paragraph Experience: We should notice to describe the different (!) feelings more detailed. But we should do this directly in the context of the different (!) practices. Might be this way is shorter and more exact at the same time.
 * Citations and verifications are difficultly here. Most existing researches are mentioned now in the article, but I will revise this in a better way and will see, what I can do more.
 * --Fritz Bollmann 10:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I don't know enough about this topic to say what content should be merged and in what way. You could try getting in touch with the people who contributed to the Milk fetishism article.  I do have a suggestion though.  If there is information on the Milk fetishism article that you feel is presented better in the Erotic lactation article, then go ahead and remove it from Milk fetishism.  Be very sure to leave a detailed explanation of your edit on Talk:Milk fetishism so people watching that page will know right away what has happened.  Sometimes, removing a lot of text from an article is seen as vandalism, so explaining that deletion (maybe even over-explaining it) is crucial.  Hope that helps. Robotman1974 11:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Appropriate naming
I wonder if the subject of Adult Nursing or Adult Nursing Relationship should be its own article. The reason is that there appear to be people who don't consider it erotic or sexual in nature, but primarily a relationship nurturing type thing. Of course, I don't buy that, but if there are reliable citations out there that assert it is not sexual, I think it should be split from this article. Thoughts? -- Ars Scriptor 14:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The greek word "Eros" means "love" or "sensual love". Therefore "erotic lactation" isn't most bad I think - it can mean either the relationship or the feelings... --Carlo

Image removed
The article featured the image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MiniCouple.gif, wich I decided to remove, because I found it completely pointless to feature a crude miniature, wich could even be considered pornographic (but who cares about blocky pieces of porn anyway?) Frank Miller 21:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have reverted this as a kind of vandalism. --Fritz Bollmann 13:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have reverted that as a display of WP:OWN Fruit Basket 04:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: I personally had asked the creator of this picture and got personally his general permission. --Fritz Bollmann 20:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Archiving of talk page
I've archived the old discussions of this talk page. See Talk page guidelines and How to archive a talk page for more information. Robotman1974 10:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well done, Thank You --Fritz Bollmann 08:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Very Wide Spread?
The article says 'Lactation games:... Very widespread in the time after child birth...' Okay? Sez who? Can we get a citation please? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.157.180.136 (talk) 04:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Done - thank you for the hint. I was a just existing reference ( Rogers, Lois: Earth dads give breast milk a try, The Sunday Times, March 13, 2005). --Caruso —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.190.126.226 (talk) 09:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

Removed link
CCRoxtar has removed the SpicyTalk link, because the discussion page is unreachable. Because this discussion page was very informative, we should look from time to time, whether the page was down occasionally only. --Julia
 * I have restored the Spicy Talk link today, because it works again. Probably the site was down for some days only. --Fritz Bollmann 08:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Against masculinity?
From the introduction: "But generally speaking one must assume this to be a rather strong taboo, and it can be concluded that a man suckling on a female breast is in contradiction to well established images of masculinity." If suckling a female breast was a contradiction in St Bernard's time then the tense is wrong. I don't know why one must assume this generally and there does not appear to be any evidence to support the claim. As it stands, since it is written in present tense, most people I have had cause to discuss such matters with actually believe that suckling on a female breast, whether the female be lactating or not, is a very manly thing to do that every man should be aiming to do more. Waerloeg 06:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, suckling/kissing the breasts/nipples isn't a taboo of course - rather it's the oppossite. But drinking the milk directly from the breast is a taboo, at least if done repeated/continuous. Might be this is a question of my insufficient english. Can any of the native english-spekers help? --Fritz Bollmann 21:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks dude. Have done so. Incidentally, if this is your "insufficient English" come set up a language school: The locals could do with a few pointers. Waerloeg 07:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Image:AnrLogo.gif
I notice this image keeps being removed and re-added. I have no opinion on that except to say that removing the image is not vandalism. This is a content dispute, so throwing accusations of vandalism around is the wrong way to go about this. I suggest that the steps outlined at WP:DR be followed instead. Robotman1974 16:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Adult Breastfeeding & Survival
There is a segment of the Adult Nursing Community who believe Adult Breastfeeding dates back to the early development of the human species, and that maintaining a lactation response within an Adult Nursing Relationship is not as difficult as previously believed.

The theory is that primitive men sought lactating women for supplemental nourishment during seasonal or winter famine; and that women maintained their milk supply for most of their adult lives. Women store fat easier than men, women have slower metabolisms than men, and women can initiate lactation independent of pregnancy or childbirth. This theory embraces the metabolic differences between men and women and gives a lone male hunter a practical survival reason for keeping and protecting a woman in the wilderness. It ties details of lactation, bonding, fertility, pregnancy, miscarriage, childbirth and infant mortality into the overall survival equation. It promotes the notion that Adult Breastfeeding is a survival tool unique to our species and is more about survival instincts and bonding than it is about sexual gratification or fetish. It also explains why human females have enlarged breasts, why men are attracted to female breasts, why lactation promotes infertility, why women often have too much milk after childbirth, and why the emotions generated within Adult Nursing Relationships are so powerful. Mlklvr 22:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Another option is that with death rates in primitive populations being so high, it would be reasonable to assume that one mother might take on nursing responsibilities another mother's child were that person to die or something of that sort. Such practice is common among peoples in developing nations. Just because a woman can lactate without childbirth, does not necessarily mean that such an adaptation was the result of nursing adult populations. Far more likely, I think, it was simply to allow young to survive the death of their natural mother through mutual childcare. Of course, neither theory is documented, so niether should appear here.--Lendorien 17:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Kabukantiki Hawaii
Article text: "Historically, induced lactation and consumption of females breast milk in the Hawaiian [Kabu-Khan] was believed to ward off evil spirits. The most fertile of tribe females were enslaved and forced to supply milk to many of the Kabu warriors. This service sometimes lasted up to 7-10 years often resulting in overtly large and quite inflated mamory tissue. Through tribe accounts, it has been implied that some women produced up to 3 gallons of milk a day. (Tibet to Mahui. p 77)"

Can't find anything of this chapter using Google. Is this a very old source or a joke? --Jackon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.190.110.240 (talk) 15:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Quality since date: 21 January 2008
Up to January, the 21th the article left a good impression to me. But the following changes read sometimes a bit speculative, sometimes a bit irrelevant and sometimes a bit like nonsense. Am I right or false?! The problem: There are a lot of changes on a lot of points in the text... --Sue —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.190.70.130 (talk) 16:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's true. Unfortunately... But I havn't the power nor the time to correct it. The article became a mulligan of correct, unproved and softened statements in a way, that it's difficult to correct this all. If anybody has the power to survive an edit war, then simply make a rollback to an earlier version, for example the mentioned January 21, 2008. I'm sorry, the current version of the article is true scrap, truely. --Fritz Bollmann (talk) 20:41, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

effects of morning after pill on lactation
Is there any negative effects on the baby if the mother takes the morning after pill? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.193.45.20 (talk) 07:01, 9 January 2007 (UTC).


 * According to the interwebs, Morning after pills containing estrogen may decrease milk flow or cease it entirley, and while preliminary studies have not shown adverse effects on the baby due to single exposures to Hormones in the mothers milk, it is generally advised to avoid this use of contraception long term for both the health of the mother and that of the baby

sauce= http://www.breastfeeding.com/helpme/helpme_asklc_ans47.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rely Day (talk • contribs) 17:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Link to Roman Charity
There's a delete-revert-delete-revert fight since some time about a link to the Roman Charity article. Deletion argument: "It's incest". Reverting argument "No censorship".

Nor the Roman Charity article or the link is from me, but let me explain the background as short as possible: The story tells a major conflict: Watch an existing taboo (incest in this case) or saving a live by breaking this taboo. The story is discussed for 2000 years and longer. Censoring it now, probably looks a bit provincial ;-) --Fritz Bollmann 07:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Apodosis: I have added a detailed Roman Charity chapter with an explanation, why this story is interesting in context with erotic lactation. Can any of you have a look at my spelling errors? Thank You. --Fritz Bollmann 10:21, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The new edits to roman charity smack of original research and unsourced claims. I think that one can make many assumptions about reasons of the interest artists had in the account. But for wikipedia, assumption isn't good enough. There needs to be sourcing and documentation for the reasoning behind it or it's original research and unverified. As it stands now, it needs to be rewritten.--Lendorien 17:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added references to the two original text sources including english translations (the best available, others are incomplete or not as exact). These references were truely missing, thank you. Over and above that, the text is very clear, state of the art (of art sience...) and free of speculations I hope. --Fritz Bollmann 10:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

If you have the references then i think it can stand there. Your spelling is good but the redaction is not encyclopedia-appropiate in my opinion. Im not an english native speaker but maybe someone who is it can help with a re-redactation of this especiffic part. Thanks Jose123abc (talk) 21:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC)Jose

Erasing for quality enhancement

 * I have erased the chapters "Pre-industrial England", "Africa" and "Kabukantiki Hawaii" to enhance the article's quality. Don't beat me for this, but the article's title isn't "Breast milk for adults", but "Erotic lactation". Furthermore the "Kabukantiki" chapter seemed to be a joke only.
 * A suggestion for the chapter "Islamic law": Can you explain the law situations (only) for the most important Islam traditions, for example Sunni and Shi'a? As far I know, both traditions allow adult suckling without influence to an existing marriage.
 * --Mofalino (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Carl Buttenstedt
In the begin of the 20th century the german Carl Buttenstedt published the book "Die Glücksehe", probaly in the 1920th translated by Maud Parlow-Hutchinson into english under the title "The Marriage of Happiness". This book describes exactly, what we call "Erotic Lactation", but not only for delight, but also for contraception (and to become deathless!). In german there are some newer texts about this book, but in english I didn't found anything. Therefore I post here litarally a text from the english version of the book; it's so to speak the "master piece" of the book. It's the "official" translation of the german text shown in the facsimile available in Wikimedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/ButtenstedtGlueckseheAnleitung.png Is anybody interested to insert it into the article?
 * The milk must be sucked 3 to 4 times daily, 5 to 10 minutes for each breast, and under normal conditions milk will be obtained in from 3 to 30 days. If the man now drinks up the milk daily so often as the breasts are full, the woman's menstruation ceases, and from that time the sexual act can be practised without conception following; so long as the milk is regularly drunk up, the sexual life can be led without care on that point. To suck only twice a day is not often enough, the interval between is too long.
 * The sucking gives to both sides, but especially to the woman, the highest sexual pleasure; that has also been intended by nature.

(BTW: A more exact translation of the begin whould be "If you suck 3 or times daily ... than milk will obtain...) --Fritz Bollmann (talk) 18:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Founding Erotic lactation and merging from Milk fetishism
This article is a direct replacement for the Milk fetishism page. See Talk:Milk fetishism for discussion regarding the renaming and merger of these articles.

---

Sorry, too lazy to make an account to start a new category, but I just wanted to note that

"In traditional Islamic law, someone who suckles the breast of a woman, who is less than 2 years old[21] (besides many strict rules like that the suckling should be of such quantity that it could be said that the bones of the child were strengthened and the flesh allowed to grow. And if that cannot be ascertained, then if a child suckles for one full day and night, or if it suckles fifteen times to its fill, it will be sufficient[21]), is that woman's child through a foster relationship (the woman is then called "milk mother")"

is the most awkward thing I've ever read on Wikipedia. Can someone please re-write this to be coherent? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.165.58 (talk) 01:13, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Universal encyclopedia of moral history and sexual science
I want to make this clear: I am not saying this isnt true, it quite possibly is. I am just asking if a better source could be produced then the one currently listed. I am referring to the sentence "In lesbian partnerships, mutual breastfeeding has been regarded as a familiar expression of affection and tenderness." With the source: "Institute for Sexual Research, Vienna 1928–1932: Universallexikon der Sittengeschichte und Sexualwissenschaft (Universal encyclopedia of moral history and sexual science"

Now I looked around for a bit and wasnt able to find this book. Under the impression that if it did exist the Nazis most likely burned every copy. Could we possibly get a better source for this? If someone has the book could they find away to make it public? 24.228.169.235 (talk) 00:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The german eBook publisher Directmedia made it a CD-DROM in 2004. Look for "Bilderlexikon der Erotik", Digitale Bibliothek, volume 19. Look here for example: http://www.versand-as.de/shop/Software-DigiBib-mehr/Digitale-Bibliothek/Digitale-Bibliothek/Jubilaeumsband-Kulturgeschichte--4428.html --Mofalino (talk) 14:32, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Update, May 2013: http://www.versand-as.de/shop/Software-DigiBib-mehr/Digitale-Bibliothek/Sonderbaende/Jubilaeumsausgabe-Digitale-Bibliothek--5026.html

--87.187.181.142 (talk) 08:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

The Roman Charity painting
From the article: Primarily, the story tells of a conflict. An existing taboo (implied incest and adult breastfeeding of a woman's milk) or saving a life by breaking the taboo. In this aspect there is no erotic focus to the story.

Ergo, why is it even mentioned in the article. I call for deletion.


 * Following paragraph: 'Most interesting in context of erotic lactation...' - Your citation is an important part (a leading-in) of the following paragraph I whould say. Please don't delete it, I think it's a very important part. Tom --84.190.125.195 (talk) 17:08, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Fine let's read it: Nevertheless nearly all "caritas romana" oil paintings and drawings show the father-daughter story only. This fact changes the original background into an erotical direction and we can very clearly see the (erotical) fascination of the adult suckling situation for the artists, who created all the paintings.

In other words, no it damned well doesn't. Delete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.174.133 (talk) 02:34, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are several attributes which can make a painting erotic or not. In case of the 'Caritas Romana' painting typus no serious art scientist puts a question mark against the erotic meaning of several works. Rubens for example painted two different 'Caritas Romana' versions, one with an erotic meanig and one not. Look at unnecessary touches, body contact, glance direction and so on. --Mofalino (talk) 13:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Supplement: I have altered the text and added a Rubens painting because you are right, that the topic wasn't clear enough. --Mofalino (talk) 13:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Concerning Roman Charity: It appears to me that the context here is not erotic but altruistic and compassionate, an attempt to nurture and save a life rather than a sex act. It is voyeours like us who get an erotic thrill out of the context.-Griffonclaw —Preceding unsigned comment added by Griffonclaw (talk • contribs) 19:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The story itself (versions of Valerius Maximus, Boccaccio): Yes! - But the paintings differ great, some are altruistic, but some have a very erotic meaning, check hand position, body contact, generals situation and so on. At. --91.63.188.111 (talk) 15:06, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

First, I agree with the first poster, this story is about breaking tabu in order to save life. Who of art historians was talking about this as erotic lactation? I ma curious, would like to know names etc.Plenty of talk about charity, etc. Why you interpret this picture as erotic because of body contact and so on? Would someone nursing a father who is close to death not support him? The expression of women is are purely compassionate, the fathter isn't erotic at all, close to expire and he is thankful rather than arroused.I would suggest to remove this section from this page, as it is about paraphilia, not about life saving situations. Yes, Griffonclaw, this interpretation is taken out of context. Some art historians talk sometimes how easily we sexualise some art because we apply today's thinking without regard to iconography.Again, delete, or find really good sources to support it, otherwise it is a personal opinion.--Bialosz (talk) 00:26, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Can some parts be moved to the Brestfeeding article?
Those will fit better there. Some parts of this article doesn't fit here as treating them as paraphilia is a huge stretch, for example breast feeding for survival, Roman Charity, Bernard of Clairvaux. Breast feeding section can have parts which deal with art history, this article doesn't need to scramble for some crumbs of information to fit it in, it is very specific, it is about paraphilia as fetishism.

For example Roman Charity as paraphilia, no one suggested that, from art historians. One art historian wrote about ev. sexual tension, (which isn't necessary shared view by other historians)but this is not the same as paraphilia, we have here certain diagnostic criteria to meet it. Bernard of Clairvaux mention doesn't take in account medieval writing on Mariology and theology plus symbolizm of Virgin Mary's milk. Taking symbolic visionary meaning as paraphilia is a huge misconception. This is encyclopedic article, we need to be precise. The part has as support some 19th century source which is like travelogue about pilgrimage, if I am right, I will check it out again.If it is travelogue it is not good enough. If you want to write about this fact, it would be good to get something about symbolism and iconography, Mariology, not travelogues. And I doubt if this iconographical material fits the diagnostic criteria of paraphilia. According to anthropolgy, we need to interpret data carefully, as what seems strange in one culture can be a normal practice and have a different context and meaning.Visionary religious experience doesn't have paraphilia context.--Bialosz (talk) 01:21, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I FIND THE FIRST PHOTO OF 2 WOMEN OFFENSIVE
I THINK THE FIRST PHOTO OF 2 WOMEN GIVES THE WRONG IMPRESSION OF ANR...I LOVE ANR BUT HAVE NEVER HAD A FEMALE OTHER THAN MY DAUGHTER(WHEN A BABY) NURSE ON ME. AND I THINK IT GIVES PEOPLE NEVER EXPOSED TO ANR THE WRONG IMPRESSION. AT LEAST MOVE IT DOWN AND EXCHANGE THE PHOTO FOR ONE OF THE OTHERS THAT HAS A MALE NURSING. TY 67.0.206.233 (talk) 16:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)10112014VO

Edit request -- December 5, 2015
Please restore the phrase "sexual arousal by" between the words "is" and "breastfeeding" in the first sentence of this article. It was removed during the spell of vandalism yesterday. Thank you. 66.87.114.84 (talk) 03:24, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ /wia   /tlk  03:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, /wia. You're awesome! 66.87.114.84 (talk) 04:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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