Talk:Erromintxela language

Core vocab
There doesn't seem to be any Basque in the vocabulary so far, core or otherwise (cf the Romani forms). The only possible contender so far is hiretzat which contains the root hi "you (familiar)". Akerbeltz (talk) 12:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * From appearances, based on the very limited information presented here, this looks like a good candidate for mixed language status. Mixed languages are very rare, so the real determining factor will be the amount of grammatical simplification (if any) that has occurred.  If we see massive grammatical simplification, then it's probably best to call this a creole.  But if the Basque grammar is fairly intact, then this may be a mixed language.  (Taivo (talk) 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC))
 * This language seems to have escaped general knowledge because the research is being published in Basque. Not too many linguists read Basque.  It deserves its own ISO 639-3 identifier, however.  (Taivo (talk) 12:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC))
 * They only started really researching it recently I guess. The grammar seems very intact, I'll be adding more stuff through the day, bear with me. Mixed language sounds like a good call. Changing it to mixed language for now. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've taken the verb forms from the poem. Probably going to add the remaining vocabulary items too. I'm thinking of writing to the publishers to ask them if we can quote the full poem, it's the only coherent text that seems to be in publication at the moment. Accordong to one article, they're hoping to publish more material soon though. I've never filled in an ISO form... you got any experience in that? Akerbeltz (talk) 13:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:Articles containing language text
Does anyone else find that link at the bottom confusing? According to the page that doesn't exist the page doesn't exist yet it has content. Where did this come from anyway, I can't seem to get rid of it. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Caló
Some of the words have clear Caló parallels. I'm thinking of chaval, acay, queli, chorar,... Would a Caló column help? Or is it enough with a Romany one? --Error (talk) 00:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, given they both have their origins in a Roma language that's not surprising. A bit like Spanish and Portuguese having shared terms due to their origins in vulgar Latin. I think it might make the table somewhat messy if we add another column. But we could add a short paragraph under Linguistic Features along the lines of: The research by Muñoz and Lopez de Mungia has confirmed that Erromintxela is not derived from Caló, the Spanish-Romani mixed language spoken in Spain. Instead, it is based on Kalderash Romani and the Basque language. Since both language nonetheless are ultimately derived from the same Romani root, there are some words in both languages which are very similar to each other such as txora{tu}/chor{ar} etc. What do you think? Possibly even a small table in that section. Does Caló have a standard spelling? Akerbeltz (talk) 09:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. The table is not "small". Reduce it as you please. My Caló does not go very far. It's mostly Spanish slang that I know has Caló origin. --Error (talk) 01:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks fine to me though I think we should remove those where we cannot cite the Romani root, since we refer to common origin in the table? Akerbeltz (talk) 13:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The Caló stuff is (currently) unref'd and I'm toying with trying to get this to GA maybe. I have a source here, the vocabulario español-gitano which cites a lot of spanish Caló forms, but not all in our current table, would you object to me changing some of the examples so I can ref them all? Akerbeltz (talk) 22:13, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Be careful with Caló dictionaries. I heard that some of them are not trustworthy. Change the examples if you find something better. --Error (talk) 19:24, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Buhameak
Is there some relation between the buhameak/Caldereros costumes worn in one of the Donostia festivals and the Erromintxela Gipsies or are they inspired in another group? --Error (talk) 01:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, Caldereros is presumably "kettle people", another common term in Europe for gypsies in general. The problem is that buhameak/ijitoak is non-specific in Basque in the sense it does not separate Erromintxela speaking people from Caló speaking people. Until the Erromintxela are better researched, I don't think we will be able to say. Akerbeltz (talk) 19:32, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Hah, found someone who researched this. I'll add it. Which article to though... it's not really a language related thing. Perhaps to the festival section? Akerbeltz (talk) 11:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Kaskarots
I dont have time to talk about this right now, maybe next week. (Au XVII ième siècle, les Kaskarots étaient des bohémiens chassés d'Espagne et du Portugal. Il se sont implantés à St Jean de Luz et à Ciboure profitant du déclin des deux villes.) That reminds me my childhood, time flies. --Zorion (talk) 15:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Incidentally, not that I'm bothered but Baudrimont consitently spells Bohémiens and Pay Basque with capitals, which is what I wrote them that way. But it doesn't matter I guess. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Created Cascarots, feel free to chip in! Akerbeltz (talk) 18:59, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Slang
Has Erromintxela contributed to Basque slang in some degree? Caló is the source of a lot of Spanish slang. I remember reading that najel dagit is a Basque (Biscayne?) equivalent of the Caló/Spanish slang me najo ("I leave"). --Error (talk) 20:33, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It's possible - but I've not come across anything in the somewhat sparse literature. Can you remember where you read that? Akerbeltz (talk) 21:19, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the Orotariko, najel egin is attested as gitano for "run away"; so najel dagit would simply be a conjugated form of that. All we need now is an attestation of it in a non-Erromintxela context. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:23, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

ISO 639-3
Anyone know how to add a pending ISO code? There's a pending request for Caló to be split and to assign emx to Erromintxela but I can't get the infobox to display this info in a sensible way. Suggestions? Akerbeltz (talk) 19:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Anglo-Romani - Romanichel / Romanichal
I have never come across these people and know nothing about them but I am from an Anglo-Romani family and have good ties with other Romani groups from around the world. I also speak English Romani and have a good understanding of other Romani dialects such as those from Eastern Europe.

The first thing I notice is regardless of the spelling the word "Erromintxela" sounds exactly like Romanichela. Romanichel / Romanichal is the name by which the English Romani go by. Nobody actually knows the root of the ending Chal / chel. Some have tried to say it is from the word 'Chal' meaning boy / fellow. I myself have never come across such a word and the word Chal is not present in any other language. The truth is that nobody actually knows for sure.

The first Romani into the UK according to history were actually Kale from Spain who arrived shortly 1500ad. The Kale themselves according to records descend from a group of about 200 that appeared in the Netherlands in 1407ad and claimed to be Dukes & Earls from "Little Egypt". They then made their way down into Spain arriving in 1425ad where they received welcome and protection. From here they settled and records show that some later went onto the UK and then on onto Scandinavia (both the only two other places other than Iberia where Kale are present).

It is from the Kale that it would appear the word "Gypsy" arrived from. Notice it is predominantly from Spain (gitano) and England (Gypsy). Every where else the word is replaced by adaptations on the term "Tsigan". There is no doubt that the Kale are however an early break way group from the rest of the Romani that arrived in the Balkans in about 1300ad. At the time of the late 1300s and early 1400s the Romanian were capturing thousands of Romane from neighbouring countries such as Bulgaria and were forcing them into forced slavery. It is probable in accordance to records and evidence that a large group broke away and made their way and seeked refuge into the Holy Roman Empire (Germany, Northern Italy, parts of Eastern France and Western Poland) in about 1400ad. This would explain how today we have a second Romani group who call themselves as "Sinte" and to this day live throughout the lands that were then all part of the Holy Roman Empire. Records show they did not all receive a warm welcome and in 1407 we find a third group calling themselves from "Little Egypt" who made their way down into Spain.

Amongst Kale they do not use the term "Romani" for themselves but it does mean "marriage and Husband. In the UK and throughout places such as France, it seems there was a later arriving group who obviously used the term "Romani" for themselves and it seems are a later breakaway group from the Romane still in Eastern Europe at the time as we can find words such as Bauri (snail), Pushka (gun), Kari (penis) which are Romanian / Slavic words.

I would guess the Romanichel / Erromintxela are from this later break way group or they are a mix of the two.

With regards to the list of words I can see many Romani words missing. i.e. Kitchima = pub Rart(i) = night

it appears that many words originally with 'R' become 'L' in the Basque / Spanish accent.

also words such as Bakro = Ewe / sheep are in fact masculine. A female sheep is a Bakri. As a general rule, o = masculine & i = feminine & e = plural

Signed = Tsigano


 * Hi Tsigano! Yes, they are one of Europe's less well know people without doubt. Now where to start...
 * Regarding chal, the etymology may well be unclear but most source I've come across gloss it as "person" and we're not making any claims as to the origin of chal itself, just the current meaning.
 * I'm sure there are lots of words "missing" but because I wanted to write this article in such a way to have "Good Article" status, I only used words that actually are mentioned in the literature about Erromintxela.
 * I know about gender in Romani but in the process of acquiring Basque grammar, it would seem they lost productive gender marking (Basque does not mark gender) so the "only" word for the thing that goes "baa" in Erromintxela is barki.

I'm hoping for new research into the language, it's such a fascinating language in such a fascinating country! Akerbeltz (talk) 12:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

With regards to some of the words off the list from my personal knowledge (not a book).

Romani words Manush or Mush / Mursh for short means 'man' but can also mean husband in some dialects such as in Anglo-Romani. The female equivalent is Manushni which again in some dialects such as Anglo-Romani can mean wife. There is another word for woman which is Rani / Rawni but this is actually supposed to mean 'lady' as in 'Lord & Lady' or 'Ladies & Gentlemen'. Gentleman / Lord in Romani is Rai = Rai ta Rani = Gentleman / Lord & Lady. Mule is Mailo Putsi is purse /pocket which would explain wallet Terno in Romani means young (masculine) Fula meaning shit (as in dog shit) would be Khul / Khula in Romani. Cat is Matchiko (m) or Matchika (f) Crazy is Divilo

Words ending in -av mean 'I' i.e. Dikhav = I see. It doesn't actually mean - To see. If it was he / she sees then it would be Dikhel.

Also the article deosn't make clear that 'x' in Romani words is pronounced as a hard 'kh' as in the 'ch' in the English word Loch. Eat is Xa as in more like Kha. In modern English-Romani the X often get pronounced as a 'H' for some unknown reason. i.e. hal = to eat. or food is Haben / Hoben from Romani 'Xabe'. c with the little hat above it is the same as 'ch' in English like in the word church. i.e steal is spelt as chor in English-Romani.

I'm guessing that the 'x' in the Erromintxela words is pronounced as 'ch'.

Not sure if this helps or whether you are already aware. Obviously I am unaware if you are Romane or Gaje or is fluent in the language or not?

I must say it is a fascinating article and has greatly intrigued me. I may have relations across the English channel I was unaware of. They may share a closer history to me than that my distant relations I meet coming across from Eastern Europe. Many thanks

Tsigano (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Fair point regarding pronunciation, I need to add that. The letters are pronounced as in Basque so x as in shirt, tx as in chocolate.
 * Gažo sim áli žanáv círa romanés ;) - I mainly have a linguistic interest in the topic.
 * The discrepancy between forms like "dikháv" and "to see" is simply down to a difference in what is known as "citation forms", that means that languages often choose different forms under which a certain word is listed in a dictionary. In English it tends to be the infinitive "to ..." but in Romani dictionaries it tends to be the 1st person singular "I ..." Just different conventions.
 * As I said, there are many Romani or Caló words but not all of them may or may not be in Erromintxela so unless they appear in a publication marked as Erromintxela, I'd rather not add them.
 * But I'm glad that this article has intrigued you, it's nice to hear that given how much time I stuck into researching it! Ka dikhás amé Akerbeltz (talk) 13:59, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Too many examples?
This article has a lot of examples.

Particularly for a language spoken by virtually nobody.

Three variant pronunciations of "dogshit". Well, I am buying my airline ticket now; I'm ready.

Some/many of the examples are identical to Romani, but simply conform to a different spelling standard. So why list them?

Varlaam (talk) 07:18, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * We had this debate during the GA nomination. The issue is that unlike with other small languages, there is virtually no single source which gives a coherent overview over the corpus. Since the corpus itself is very small as well (as linguistic corpora go), we decided we'd let the examples stand in this instance. Akerbeltz (talk) 08:16, 18 April 2012 (UTC)