Talk:Erskine Childers (author)

Start classification
I have classified this article as a start due to its level of organisation and detail. Capitalistroadster 06:00, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Changed DSO to DSC - I've seen this mistake elsewhere. Removed "Soon Childers was regarded as a traitor not only by the British, but by the pro-Treaty Free State government in Dublin, which was under increasing pressure from Winston Churchill and the British government to take violent reprisal measures against the anti-treaty forces and their leaders." as the civil war had started, so pretty obvious.Red Hurley (talk) 14:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Automatic Pistol or Revolver
On the Main page, 23-24th of November, the pistol Childers was carrying when he was arrested was described as a revolver, where as in the article it is described as a small caliber automatic pistol. Clearly, they cannot both be correct. Handschuh-talk to me 02:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The weapon was presented to the Defence Forces Museum in October 1995 and photographs appeared in the press. It's a pistol. Now cited in article.--Old Moonraker (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Article name
Adhering to the Wikipedia naming convention would have this article named "Erskine Childers", with the full name as a redirect page and given in the lead paragraph. I'm inclined to make the change, subject to other editors' thoughts. --Old Moonraker (talk) 23:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No. He is generally known by all three names. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  23:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of The Riddle of the Sands, where it's "Erskine Childers" only. This is what he is most famous for and therefore this is the name that best fits the naming convention. This isn't plain at the moment; in fact the novel isn't even in the lead paragraph. However if the current name stands (and there are too many pointless changes on WP already) it wouldn't be difficult to make the point: something like: as "Erskine Childers" he was the author of... would cover it. --Old Moonraker (talk) 23:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Per Kittybrewster, I think the current name most completely meets COMMONNAME. Though no reason not to mention "pen name" elsewhere. Guliolopez (talk) 17:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I confess that I hadn't considered this from the Irish point of view when I made the suggestion, only thinking of it after Kittybrewster's the first post in reply. "REC" is obviously valid there, to distinguish him from President Erskine Childers, but "EC" is probably the common name from Wikipedia's worldwide reach and perspective. However, I sought other editors' views and if they continue along the lines already posted I'll be tweaking the text instead.--Old Moonraker (talk) 18:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I am British - not Irish. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  19:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm dropping the suggestion: expanded "Erskine" in the lead paragraph instead. --Old Moonraker (talk) 17:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See WP:LEADCITE regarding the unfortunate necessity of having these unsightly refs in the lead paragraph if it contains "material that is challenged". --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Irish Convention and Anglo-Irish Treaty
A recent edit duplicated some material, already included, regarding the Irish Convention. I've removed it, but that's not to say that the topic couldn't be expanded. I also need to get on with the Anglo-Irish Treaty, where Childers was also secretary, this time on the "other" side. This is an important episode and similarly needs to be covered in more detail. It's gradually rising to the top of my "to do pile", unless someone else has the inclination. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Date of his wife's death
The article on Mary Childers give the year of her death as 1974, while this article gives it as 1964. It cannot be that both are correct. Snezzy (talk) 17:42, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed, with acknowledgement to you. Good catch. --Old Moonraker (talk) 18:36, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

conversion
There was not one incident which was responsible for Childers's conversion from loyal supporter of the British Empire to extreme Irish nationalist: a nationalist so intemperate that his opposition to compromise is sometimes credited with bringing about the Irish Civil War

This sentence is loaded with pov. First off Childers was a republican, secondly the use of the adjective 'extreme' is fatous, uneccessary and pov. The use of the adjective 'intemperate' is also pov and the idea that childers was in any way personally responisble for the civil war is actually civil war propaganda designed to justify his execution. It is unseemly in an encyclopedia. I'm editing this to something more sensible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.102.222 (talk) 20:27, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "Extreme" is in the refs. If it's in the refs, from a definitive source, it's difficult to condemn it as WP:NPOV. A further reference for "extreme" added.
 * The article doesn't state that Childers was responsible for the civil war: it says that people "credit" him with this. That's a very big difference, and totally encyclopaedic.
 * The suggestion that Childers was blamed for the war as propaganda to justify his execution is interesting and worthy of inclusion in the article, if a reliable source can be found. Note, however, that one of the sources quoted is Childers himself, writing in 1921, which tends to diminish the force of this argument. The extent of the propaganda, both by Childers and about Childers, could certainly do with more examination in the article.
 * --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:36, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Afterthought re the "first off" contention, above: Childers segued from British Empire loyalist via Irish nationalist to Irish Republican. If, in the context of this sentence, "Republican" is a better fit for his final mindset, then that's a worthwhile change. --Old Moonraker (talk) 22:45, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * who and, indeed why, they 'credit' him needs to be contextualised. The article doesn't do that. If indeed such contextualisation was done it would show clearly that it was only certain people on a certain side of the civil war divide that credited him. Any reference to this 'crediting' in an article on his life would only be relevant because of this fact. As it stands the sentence is clearly pov as it implies that this ''crediting' is somehow more wide spread than it is. The use of the adjective 'intemperate' is unnecessary and pov.


 * After his 'conversion' to republicanism Childers aims remained (until this death) the basic nationalist aim of a Nation state covering what was considered the national territory. On any neutral scale this is not extreme but the basic precpets of being a nationalist. It is only from the point of view of one side of the civil war that this appears 'extreme'. References that seem to employ emotional and point of view language do not make the point any less pov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.103.113 (talk) 21:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The statement from Griffiths is already contextualised: he believed that Childers's refusal to compromise at the July 1921 home rule negotiations would start a civil war in Ireland. The sources for this don't indicate that this is a widespread assessment and the article already reflects this by qualifying the statement as "sometimes" credited. Childers was an extremist in the context of "more extreme than most members of Sinn Fein". I don't accept that the references are "emotional"  and "point of view": they are from the two definitive biographies of Childers (one author selected for the task by Childers's son), and an academic publication. However, this should not be the last word: the other points you mention, if supported by quality sources, need to be inserted as alternative views. It would be wrong to delete the strongly sourced information already here but it's perfectly in order (in fact it's necessary, to achieve balance) to include any different viewpoints that satisfy the WP:RS criteria. As the existing footnotes are making use of quotes, the new citations should if possible  do the same. Your earlier point about propaganda would also be a welcome addition. --Old Moonraker (talk) 23:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I replaced this pov word 'extreme' with 'diehard'. The fact that the author does not refer to his support for the British Empire, an empire which claimed 25% of this entire planet, as "extreme" says more than enough about that author's politics. 86.44.61.61 (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

The reference now includes the quotation and context for "extreme": there's no latitude for changing the material away from the reference. It's a synthesis, which isn't allowed. Once again: please by all means add other reliable sources with alternative interpretations (or, if you prefer, alternative "politics"), but don't just add your own interpretation without anything to back it up.--Old Moonraker (talk) 07:10, 14 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Word choice, belatedly: "credited" changed to "blamed", as suggested above. --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Dear fellow editors. I have just read this article and wanted to thank those of you who have clearly worked so hard to create a scholarly and well arranged piece. I have no specialist knowledge on the man or the period but I was taken aback by one small section, which I now see has been the subject of extensive discussion on this Talk Page.The section is at the start of the ‘Conversion’ section and currently reads: 'There was no single incident which was responsible for Childers's conversion from loyal supporter of the British Empire to extreme Irish nationalist: a nationalist so intemperate that his opposition to compromise is sometimes blamed for bringing about the Irish Civil War. Rather, there was a gradual awareness, later turning into a fanatical obsession.' I wanted, politely, to suggest as a ‘naïve ordinary reader’ the terms ‘extreme’, ‘intemperate’ and ‘fanatical’ seemed unencyclopedic to me and risk detracting from the otherwise scholarly and balanced tone of the article. Unhelpfully, I have no suggestions to make as to how this should be re-worded but would encourage those of you who have crafted such a good article to see if you can find a better choice of words. jb3ddd  —Preceding undated comment added 21:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Has anyone ever analysed how, within a year, Childers came from signing the Treaty to wanting to kill those who were to implement it? And to follow that up with an invasion of Northern Ireland that would start a civil war there? This would involve the deaths of thousands.78.16.80.67 (talk) 22:42, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Over-nice 'bot edits
I've checked the links complained of by User:WildBot, but they all seem to work. That's not to say that better targets couldn't be found. Any oversight and suggestions from other contributors on this? --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:01, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Asgard in the lede
We have "Childers smuggled in some guns "but" he was executed by the Free State government (my clumsy paraphrase and added emphasis). This possibly implies some presupposition; anyone mind if I make this an "and" instead ? Italics and WL for Asgard, at the same time. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:20, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. It makes more sense. RashersTierney (talk) 21:14, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've had second thoughts about this: "...was an Irish nationalist...but was executed by the authorities of the nascent Irish Free State" makes perfect sense, so I've just put the intervening phrase in brackets to make the antithesis more obvious. Any better? --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:12, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Surely anyone on 'the other side' would also be correctly described as a 'nationalist', and Childers was was far from alone in being executed by the IFS. The 'but' implies a point-of-view 'irony'. RashersTierney (talk) 10:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK: my "first thoughts" prevail again. Getting on with it. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:32, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Try for "Good Article"?
I think that, with the recent improvements to his period as a TD, this article is within sight of WP:GA status. If there's any support, I'll submit it. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:38, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Trim the fat and you have my support in getting this article ready for submission. RashersTierney (talk) 00:57, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I can see one or two bits that need a trim, but I've been editing the page for too long to do this objectively. I'm just trying to remember the name of the famous author who said, of revising his/her own work, identify the bits you really like, and get rid of them first! --Old Moonraker (talk) 07:04, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Afterthought: I see from a quick look at the recent page history that the necessary trimming won't be achieved without some dissent. As can be seen from "Elgin Committee", lower down, I do not accept, for example, the relevance of this particular material.--Old Moonraker (talk) 07:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That should be the first to go. I've tried, but been reverted with an ES implying that this had been settled at the TP. It seems rather that the poster is out of step. RashersTierney (talk) 09:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The ES made no such implication, merely that a discussion had been started, and that a wholesale and aggressive deletion of material was not desirable. The subject of the article is Erskine Childers, not the aspects of Erskine Childers' life which you happen to find interesting. He was a rounded human being who spent the better part of a decade of his life working on this stuff and was a minor celebrity for it long before he became famous as an Irish Nationalist - a few paras in the course of a lengthy article is not unreasonable. It was discussed in the article long before I got involved and what the article originally said on the topic was garbage (to quote what I've written below "Childers' views on the obsolescence of cavalry charges were clearly correct and the British Army refused to accept them because it would have meant admitting they were wrong - and cited as a source a 1970s book"). Trimming to keep the article directly relevant to its subject is fine (the article no longer refers to the Elgin Commission, for example) - wholesale deletion of material which explains where Childers' views fitted into the bigger picture isn't. If you delete this altogether then you'd need, by the same logic, to delete any explanation of what "Riddle of the Sands" was all about - which would clearly be silly.Paulturtle (talk) 10:38, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please don't assume to know where my interests on Wikipedia lie. You may assume that it is to improve the project. The current puffery detracts from where the focus should lie; on Childers's writings and its reception. A detailed treatise on cavalry tactics and the opinions of others, unless directly addressing Childers's books is distracting and essentially off topic. Also, the 'joke' about the ' cul-de-sac leading to a cemetery' is entirely unencyclopedic and has no place here. RashersTierney (talk) 17:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, that’s your opinion isn’t it. It’s not a fact. Or else it might be an amusing story which demonstrates that Childers’s views had irritated the new generation of top brass in the British Army so much that one of them had to be mollified with a grim joke about their impracticability (and black humour about one’s profession, much of which would sound shocking to outsiders, is hardly confined to generals). I am happy to accept your protestations of good faith but you are more likely to receive that courtesy if you first extend it to others – as opposed to making wholesale deletions of material from a topic on which I had already been more than cooperative about removing material like the Elgin Commission which is on reflection not directly relevant and on which discussion had ended (in so far as anything on Wikipedia ever ends) with OldMoonraker’s comment that “That looks about right now”, not to mention aggressive and dismissive phrases like “coat-racking” “barrack room banter” and the ill-judged claim that this section (covering a writing career which took up a decade of the subject’s life and brought him onto the fringes of the national stage) “should be the first to go”.

The bottom line is that as it stands at the moment the section consists of three short paras, much more accurate than before I started to work on it, and frankly rather more succinctly expressed than a lot of the rest of the article. I do not accept that it contains “puffery (which) detracts from where the focus should lie” or “a detailed treatise on cavalry tactics and the opinions of others”. It contains a single sentence explaining what the argument was about and another about how his views did not prevail, along with some other phrases from which the reader can infer that Childers’s views were not as necessarily correct as is sometimes supposed.

Richard Holmes, French’s biographer, has about 6 or 7 index references to Childers and includes some detail on Childers’s views on how the successful charge at Elandslaagte owed a lot to a curious set of coincidental circumstances (probably true), and how Childers felt the need to apologise for disagreeing publicly with Jonny French, the most celebrated cavalry commander in the world at the time. Now, all of that would meet your criterion about being relevant to Childers and his writings, so would you like me to post them in the article? No, thought not.Paulturtle (talk) 00:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That is the second time you have characterised my edits as 'aggressive'. Not very collegial. Leaving that aside for the moment, the analysis of the 'amusing story' in the article, that '[Haig] was mollified by being told that the road was a cul-de-sac leading to a cemetery', is original research. Reid does not say that Haig was 'mollified'. In fact it was likely a fabrication by a noted Haig sycophant and disseminator of disinformation. RashersTierney (talk) 23:24, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * On-going content disputes are a disqualification from GA status. Just one contributor's insistence that his/her material, seemingly barred by the WP:TOPIC provisions, must stay debars the article, the work of many earlier contributors, from promotion. My earlier comment "That looks about right now" I regret; I was only trying not to be too negative about the changes.--Old Moonraker (talk) 08:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I don't see that the 'joke' is appropriate or in fact adds anything that a more direct statement on Haig's attitude towards Childers would, (if that is considered necessary). However, I am firmly of the view that in a section relating to Childers's writing, criticism should be strictly confined to that topic. It is a pity that one editor appears determined to have their views prevail. We can seek comment from the Wikiprojects above, but hopefully we won't need to. 'Throwing the floor open' on a sensitive subject can escalate drama; certainly not desirable. RashersTierney (talk) 09:02, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

City Imperial Volunteers
This is a deliberate redlink. I've had it here for quite a while now, in the hope that someone from milhist might be tempted to have a go, but I'm about to give in and try for myself. I've found enough material for a stub, at least. --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Go for it. I'll chip in where I can. RashersTierney (talk) 11:42, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Anglo-Boer War - happy to chip in as required. See Category:City Imperial Volunteers officers Kernel Saunters (talk) 12:02, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for the endorsement, the offers and that link. I can get round to this within the next fortnight month or so.--Old Moonraker (talk) 09:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Elgin Committee
There has been a recent, and wholly valid, expansion in the part of the article dealing with War and the Arme Blanche, along with some useful L3 headers to break up some long sections. However, is the new paragraph following, dealing with deliberations of the Elgin Committee and a road to a cemetery perhaps named after the subject's cousin, really relevant? I suggest the application of "please be bold in deleting" from WP:TOPIC. As the guideline notes: this is particularly valid where the unrelated information has a natural home in another article. --Old Moonraker (talk) 07:40, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Before I got to work on the section it basically said that Childers' views on the obsolescence of cavalry charges were clearly correct and the British Army refused to accept them because it would have meant admitting they were wrong - and cited as a source a 1970s book, written at a time when the reputation of British WW1 generalship was at its nadir. To quote Sir John French's biographer Richard Holmes "it's easy to chuckle", but there were reasons for their beliefs. Our ancestors may have been wrong about some things but they were no stupider than you or I. By all means trim the section a bit - the key point is that this was a matter of controversy at the highest levels of the British Army and tactical lessons are never as obvious as they appear with hindsight.

You are quite right, the cemetary would most likely have been named after H.C.E.Childers (which I confess hadn't occurred to me) but it is indicative that Erskine Childers' views had attracted enough attention to irritate one of the leading generals of the British Army (which Haig was, even then). I think it's an amusing story and it belongs here rather than in the Haig biog, where it would be too trivial to include.

I cleaned up some of the Irish Home Rule stuff as well, as this was an electoral albatross for the Liberal Party and they most certainly didn't have a mandate for it in 1906 - I was tempted to mention Rosebery's infamous description of Home Rule as "fly-blown phylacteries" in 1900, but that would have attracted the same off-topic objections. It wasn't really the issue in 1910 either, the issues were tariffs and stripping the Lords of their veto to get Lloyd George's budget through.Paulturtle (talk) 09:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Have moved the Elgin Committee to Elgin's own biog, as that's probably not directly relevant unless we have evidence that Childers testified.Paulturtle (talk) 15:45, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That looks about right now. Incidentally, "Childers' " should be "Childers's" throughout, partly because it's supported by the various style guides, newspaper reports and books, but mostly because of WP:RETAIN and to keep consistency through the article.--Old Moonraker (talk) 22:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Chronological development
This is a very informative article. The major downside for me was that, in trying to understand Childers spectacular if not unique conversion, the article jumps around his life. From sailing in 1898 to sailing the Asgard in 1914, to the Home Rule Convention in 1917 back to his marriage in 1903, and so on. 79.97.64.240 (talk) 12:08, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Ethnonym is British?
Why is his ethnonym "British"? Would it not be more accurate to describe him as either English or Anglo-Irish? UaMaol (talk) 14:19, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Seaplane Experimental Station
Perhaps someone here can offer a perspective, my edit concerning Childers was removed from the Seaplane Experimental Station page without it seems any real justification, see the talk page here. I pointed to the simple discrepancy concerning T. E. Lawrence and RAF Calshot and there being what seems to be a double standard applied in this case? Other information was removed about the same time.

My brief summary under See Also was as follows including the citations:


 * Robert Erskine Childers - author of Riddle of the Sands, noted for his navigational skills and knowledge of the Frisian coast. Winston Churchill was instrumental in Childer's recall and following an urgent request from the Admiralty, he reported to RNAS Felixstowe 18 August 1914 as an officer in the Royal Naval Reserve, in practice attached to the RNAS; Childers flew as an observer, returning as an RAF intelligence officer at the base from April 1918.      80.229.34.113 (talk) 20:36, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 4 August 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: consensus that the common name of the author is Erskine Childers, but no consensus that he is the primary topic; thus, moving to Erskine Childers (author) at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 07:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

– Both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. As well as being an important Irish political figure, he is also important as the author of The Riddle of the Sands. PatGallacher (talk) 00:19, 4 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz talk &#124; contribs 19:58, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Robert Erskine Childers → Erskine Childers
 * Erskine Childers → Erskine Childers (disambiguation)
 * Oppose, because subject's son, who served as President of Ireland, was also known as Erskine Childers. I would support, however, a move to the already-existing (since October 2013) redirect Erskine Childers (author), since Erskine Childers was, indeed, his WP:COMMONNAME.   Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:16, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Despite his son's eminence in Irish politics, he is still the best-known Erskine Childers by far. Definitely primary and definitely his common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:06, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose but move to Erskine Childers (author), per Roman Spinner. President of Ireland and Tanaiste are fairly eminent claims to notability in his own right (even if the title is more subordinate to the taoiseach in terms of real power). And both get healthy page views: |Robert_Erskine_Childers|Erskine_Barton_Childers, the author with more, but not overwhelmingly more. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 14:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Marriage details in infobox
At the moment, under Mary Alan Osgood we have (m. 1904, d. 1922), which strongly implies she died in 1922. The article goes on to say she died in 1964.

I'd suggest changing this to (married 1904 - his death), which is the format used in the James Joyce infobox.Clear air turbulence (talk) 22:56, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

"The Form and Purpose of Home Rule. A Lecture Delivered"
This section is described in the article as a "book", but in fact it's a transcript of a lecture Childers delivered at the Mansion House, Dublin, on 2 March 1912. If I can find a transcript this can be corrected.--AntientNestor (talk) 20:28, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Trinity College Dublin has placed it online here.--AntientNestor (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's at page 30 of the transcript. The quote in the Wikipedia piece is accurate, but I couldn't find anything to justify "Childers’s obsession with whiteness" in the lecture, which deals mainly with fiscal matters and the various forms the potential association between independent Ireland and Britain could take. This whole paragraph of the WP article seems to be a bit of a stretch.--AntientNestor (talk) 10:57, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added the lecture to the "Conversion" section of the article, using the transcription as the reference.--AntientNestor (talk) 12:37, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I am wrong. Childers expanded the lecture into a book The Framework of Home Rule (surprisingly, not in OCLC which which offers only the transcript); Project Gutenberg offers work  online here. However, the section in our article dealing with this may give undue weight, and I've changed the tag to  . Apologies.--AntientNestor (talk) 07:54, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Update: There is no such book as The Form and Purpose of Home Rule, only the lecture under that name, as above—facsimile here. Hathi Trust's online facsimile edition of The Framework of Home Rule (the book) here shows that the WP article is definitely referring to the wrong work. The mistake is not by the OP ; it is as given in the work they used as a source. Confirmation comes from the chapters and text in Framework corresponding to the chapters described in the WP article.

Incidentally: the Childers family copy of Framework had a copy of the "Form and Purpose" transcript tucked into the back of it, which may have confused some researchers.

tag reinstated. Sorry for the confusion.--AntientNestor (talk) 22:17, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Proposed fix: Add contemporary reaction to to The Framework of Home Rule (the book) and the more recent academic disquiet about its "white imperialist" passages. Trim the result according to WP:UNDUE and merge into its proper place in the article.--AntientNestor (talk) 09:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge completed.--AntientNestor (talk) 16:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Caroline Elkins
Currently embarked on Legacy of Violence: A History of the British Empire. Not an easy or a comfortable read, particularly for a Brit. But I did come across Childers. Writing after the Burning of Cork, he attacked the British Government’s claim that the national movement in Ireland was nothing but a ‘murder squad’; “It is a natural uprising; a collision between two Governments, one resting on consent, the other on force. The Irish are struggling against overwhelming odds to defend their own elected institutions against extinction”. (P=153}} Not saying it has a place in this article, but an interesting insight into his view, and his passion. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 17:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)