Talk:Erzgebirgisch

Discussion that was in Talk:Erzgebirgisch/Translation workspace
Looking great! Thanks. I wish I had time to help out...I may be ablet to, we'll see. Aelffin 14:56, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Questions
First off, you've done an incredible amount of work on this article and like Aelffin said, it's looking great :) When I was reading through the article, I came across a couple of passages, where I was left wondering what they mean:


 * Furthermore, German [o/ɔ] corresponds to [u/ʊ] in the mentioned
 * varieties (e.g. westerzgeb. huus [huːs] ‚Hose‘), and German [a]
 * corresponds to [A.

This passage seems somehow incomplete, the end in particular.

In addition, I'm wondering about the apocope of the schwa as it would seem to me that it is more syncope in the examples given.

Again, congrats on all the fine work you've done. -Yupik 09:01, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I have only done the purely lexical translation up to now, meaning that I have not checked for factual accuracy yet. Anything you find in the English version is also found in the German version. Feel free to change the article as you see fit. I will not have much time to spend on it during summer anyway.
 * I think that [o/ɔ] --> [u/ʊ] and [a]-->[A] should not be too strange, but [A] is of course not IPA, maybe [ɑ] is intended? Jasy jatere 11:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Points
In translating the article, User:Jasy jatere found the following to be factually inaccurate:

Die stimmlosen unaspirierten Plosive (b, d und g) neigen vor allem zwischen Nasalen (m, n und ng) und Vokalen dazu, stimmhaft zu werden. Dies ist jedoch nur eine Tendenz und wird in der Schreibung nicht ausgedrückt.

(Rough) Translation: The voiceless, unaspirated plosives (b, d, and g) become voiced when they occur between nasals (m, n, and ng). This tendency is not normally represented in the orthography.

This passage appears in the Consonants subsection, and I have commented it out until such time as the accuracy/inaccuracy of the claim can be verified. --Aelffin 15:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, my objection is not about the sounds the Erzgebirgisch speakers produce, but about their representation.
 * "The voiceless, unaspirated plosives (b, d, and g)..."
 * Well, b, d and g are normally considered voiced, not voiceless. I think that I know what the original author meant, however: The distinction between b and p in German is often considered to be one of aspiration, not voicing. So b is voiceless unaspirated and p is voiceless aspirated. To resolve the conflict, we can develop that section and specify that the grapheme  represents the phoneme /b/, which is realized [p]/[b̥], and the grapheme  represents the phoneme /p/, which is realized [pʰ].Jasy jatere 17:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Haha, of course! I can't believe I didn't notice that! Go ahead and correct the error. Maybe you'd like to correct the German version too! :) Aelffin 17:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Please don't correct things that have been correct before... b, d and g are in fact voiceless, they are only written by the "voiced" signs, but the pronunciation is voiceless. The "voiceless" stops p and t do not exist in writing or vary freely with b and d, respectively. But there is a phonemic distinction between k [kʰ] and g [k]. If you have any questions about the language, just ask. I'm first language speaker of it. --Thogo (Talk) 17:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Is this not pretty much what I said??? Jasy jatere 17:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I meant Aelffin mostly, and wanted to clarify that for him. ;o) I would help with the translation, but I don't have time to contribute to en.wp. There is so much work on de.wp and on the other projects where I'm active (Wiktionary and Meta, mainly). Btw., the German Erzgebirgisch article needs some cleenup to meet the criteria for "Lesenswert" again, so I will work over it as soon as I find the time. But again, if you have questions concerning the contents, feel free to ask (best would be on my Meta talk page or on de.wiki). --Thogo (Talk) 20:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

try of a translation of sect. 5
Aß t'r Niemeyer seine Schustern in de Kerch zur Trau keführt prengt ae Vugelsteller Vugel un hot Baeden kratelirt; is k' schaen den 25. Oktober 1759. Clasthol, kedrueckt bey den Buchdruecker Wendeborn.

Klick auf mit enanner ihr statlig'n Harrn!

Do stellt sich d'r Toffel aach ein aus der Farrn,

Hahr hot sich ju kraets schunt de Fraehaet kenumme,

Su iß'r aach diesmohl mit reiner kekumme.

Se hahn ne ju suest wos ze luesen kekahn:

Ich hoh schiene Vugel, wolln sie se besahn?

When Niemeyer lead his bride to the church for wedding, bird trader Vogel speaks and gratulates the both; It happened on Oktober 25th in 1759. Clasthol, printed by printer (or: editor, lit. "book printer") Wendeborn.

Welcome you all, you imposing men!

Everyone from far away is comming to see it

Here has one taken the liberty,

So he (meant is everyone) has come now.

They are looking if they can get advantage of this:

I have nice birds, do you want to see them?

I've tried to give the gist of the poem, so it is a very free translation (I'm not quite shure if i got the point), i also translated some items in the lexicon within the article. (for discussion and critics please consult my user page in German Wikiedia: de:Benutzer:Patrixx)--139.18.180.50 08:04, 1 August 2007 (UTC).
 * I have put the translation into the article so that it can be edited by those who understand the language. I did some editing myself. Maybe somebody can put a literal translation into Standard German here or, better, into the German article. This would make things easier. Andreas  (T) 13:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The translation is not correct. It doesn't refer to "everyone", it is always the birdseller who is meant. --Thogo (Talk) 17:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I corrected it (and some other things in that section). Sorry for the many edits that I needed. --Thogo (Talk) 17:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)