Talk:Eschatology/Archive 1

Source?
One of the sages of the Talmud says that, "Let the end of days come, but may I not live to see them" ... who is "one of"?

Bias
Why is the editor of the Eschatology page so biased against the entry *Notes on the Evolution and Dynamics of Biblical Eschatology that he keeps deleting it as an external link? --67.136.153.200 15:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

IS THIS CORRECT? PLEASE CHECK. A breeze from the south shall cause sores in the armpits of Muslims which they will die from.

Buddha did not predict that his teachings would last for 500 years; it was actually 1000 years, but, he said, that 'if women are allowed into the buddhist fold', then, 'that which has to last for a 1000 years, will fall in just 500'

Science
concerning this line,
 * Science doesn't have an eschatology as such, but the study of cosmology does deal with theories about the possible origins and the ultimate fate of the Universe.

Couldn't one argue that entropy (the second law of thermodynamics) is a most profound eschatology? Is it Frost who evokes the third law's eschatology:
 * But if it had to perish twice,
 * I think I know enough of hate
 * To know that for destruction ice
 * Is also great
 * And would suffice

If the first time we perish is when we die, isn't the second perishing when the universe itself dies? Slrubenstein

Organizing Afterlife Articles
I would like to organize the articles that deal with an otherworld as a real existence. I propose that Afterlife would be the best hub for such articles. Eschatology and Underworld are other possibilities, but I don't think they work as well as Afterlife. Any thoughts on such a project? Tom (hawstom) 14:40, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Computers
A/UX the original Unix OS from Apple Computer used the word eschatology for some filesystem recovery information. I think it has been used in other computer contexts as well. --Elijah 02:29, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)

not there
the link to egyptian, greek and roman eshatology leeds to nothing so i am going to delete them as well as the rastafarian one


 * Please don't remove red links just because they are red. Those articles should eventually be created.  Leaving red links in place is one method we indicate which articles are missing. -- Beland 20:43, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Attention flag
This article has lately gotten a lot of material added to it rather haphazardly. I've discovered there are lots of end-of-the-world-related articles sprouting up, but they are larely isolated and collectively disorganized. A lot of these articles have subsections that have a "main article" somewhere else, but that section has material that's not in the main article, or otherwise isn't a good overall summary. There are also a few articles still in need of merging, and a lot of work needs to be done on cross-references, including "see also" links. -- Beland 05:50, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Introduction
In the second paragraph of the introduction, there is discussion of the Greek word "Aeon" for "age". Is this supposed to be a bit of etymology (eschatos + aeon = last age)? If so, it is bogus. The correct etymology (see OED) is that eschaton is the neuter of the adjective eschatos. Used as a noun, it would then translate simply as "last thing".

I had intended to leave this alone, and see where discussion went, but in fact, I'll delete the offending paragraph. It can always be restored.

Magic Bills?
What are the "Magic Bills"? Schizombie 20:47, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I am a Magic Bill. There are about 230 of us in the Midwestern region of the United States. I'm the one adding the annotation, and I would appreciate if it stayed there. We are working on a Wikipedia entry for our church. Once the entry is posted, I will replace the Magic Bills annotation in this entry.

Can you provide an internet source? What religion are you a denomination of? Or are you a religion all in your own? Please specify. KI 04:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

We are not a sect, we are an independant group. I am unable to locate other websites but you may be able to find local news stories from Illinois, northeastern Iowa and Southern Wisconsin. We're not big on communications technologies.


 * We just published our new What Is There? and What Is Outside? booklets. I can provide them by snail mail if you like. Sorry for slow responses.
 * HELLO???
 * I am willing to pay for shiping of one or both of our booklets to you but I cant't do that if I don't have your address...

Hi. I don't know Wikipedio editing protocol so sorry if this is not welcome here, but does any one have any infromation about magic bills? this is the only place I could find on Google that even talks about it, and I would like information on this cult, since they seem to be moving in on Fitchburg, WI. Any infor? PLEASE let me know...

Realted page: End Times
What is the relationship between "Eschatology" and the entry for End Times? Seems like these pages should be joined, or at least refer to each other somehow. Wadsworth 20:51, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Hopi
The section on Hopi end times prophecy had each "sign" parenthesised with an interpretation relating to current events, as follows:


 * Tribal leaders of the Hopi tribe, such as Dan Evehama, Thomas Banyaca and Martin Gashwaseoma prophecize that the coming of the white man signals the end times, along with a strange beast "like a buffalo but with great horns that would overrun the land" (i.e. cattle). It is prophesized that during the end times the earth would be crossed by iron snakes and stone rivers, (i.e. railroads), and the land would be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web (i.e. freeways), and seas will turn black (i.e. oil spills).

I have removed the interpretations as unencyclopaedic (one wouldn't write in an article on Christian end-times prophecy "The AntiChrist (Pope)", for example, despite that being a common interpretation). Would be interested to see a source for this, ideally putting these things in context, as this small subset of Hopi prophecy seems to show up in a lot of trendy new age books with little or no background given.

--Black Butterfly 13:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Have reverted edits to the Hopi section (people removed my removals as detailed above without commenting on this page). could someone shed some light on this (ideally someone responsible for the reverts), including who the above "tribal leaders" are and what the details are of the prophecy? --Black Butterfly 11:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Deleting content without an explanation is seen as vandalism. I suggest that in the future, when deleting content you disagree with, you provide an edit summary to explain your actions. I still remain unconvinced your edits were anything more than just petty vandalism. KI 14:35, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Assuming that is directed at me, I would like to point out that I DID explain my edits, and consequent re-edits, while those who removed them did no such thing. --Black Butterfly 16:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's simply not true. KI 20:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * you appear to be rewriting things to your own belief. check the page history. check the changes made by me. then check the history for this talk page. each one explained. --Black Butterfly 12:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

From what I've read, the "spider's web" refers not to freeways but to telephone and electrical wires.

correction to islamic view of end of days
it is widely belived that Al-Mahdi will only play a role in uniting the muslims to withstand the Anti-Christ attacks, However, it is Jesus who will kill the Anti-Christ and he (Jesus)...will create a world state.... With such a start he will establish an empire of God in this world. He will be the final demonstration and proof of God's merciful wish to acquaint man with the right ways of life....the fate of Al-Mahdi is not clearly depicted after the second appearence of Jesus.

- - - -

I know that Muslims revere Jesus as a prophet of God, but do they see him as 'Christ' in the way that Christians do? 'Christ' simply means 'anointed', if I remember correctly, so I suppose there is no reason why Muslims should not use the title for Jesus, but I am curious to know whether Muslim tradition describes an 'Antichrist', and if so whether the word carries quite the same meaning as it would to someone from a Christian background. - Adaru 14:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetical edit
The entry for Mormonism was taken out of alphabetical order and placed at the beginning of the article. I just put it back where “M” should go. The previous order connoted favoritism for Mormonism which breaks the NPOV stance of Wikipedia. Dodavehu 18:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

"Much of it depends on way the Jews act. Some also say that these tumoltuous events will also be spiritual difficulty such as immorality etc. We are taught not to delve too deep into these things for they are difficult to discover and can drive a man insane. "

That is unfit for a Wikipedia text.It is not quoted,and is probably written by a zealous Jew.--85.102.76.31 22:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

transliteration
someone should transliterate the greek, to make it accessible for he or she who does not know the greek alphabet but wants to know greek words for etymology.

History
It may just be me (I like lists) but anyone object to a chronology of the end of the world, as it were? Hakluyt bean 19:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

islamic eschatolgy
Somebody had written under the islamic eschatology in this page that the Prophet(S.A.W) said to his companions that some of them will live till the end of the time. He didn't give any citation. There is no Hadith or any other source that tells us this. Hence, I have deleted the entry.

القيامة يوم yom el Quiama (last day of world)
Yom el Quiama which can be translated to day of ressurection but I prefer to translate it to last day of world because I like to discuss it from folkloric point of view because it is a constant belief in both East and West,christians and moslems. Any natural phenomenon like sun or moon eclipse was considered as ominous sign for yom el-Quieama and all measures were taken by people to pass the dilemma including of course prayers and unusual gifts to poor but in middle ages it was taking more comic type.Somebody mostly a monk or sufi determined exactly the date and hour of this catastroph.people were selling all their properties and gathered together to see the end among weeping and praying etc.but the hour was passing quitely and the only reason of that was a request from saint or martyr or apostle.The only winners of this comedy was the prince or trader or sufi who deserved of course gifts and money for his meditation and what a funny things in this world. Dr.Philip Attiya

Scientology Section Not Eschatology
The section on Scientology had almost nothing to say about Eschatology. I have removed it. If someone wants to put back the Scientology entry, it would be best if it explained how Scientologists believe the world will end.

List of doomsday scenarios
Could use votes to save this article, thanks MapleTree 22:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Point of 'Doomsday'?
What is the point of such a thing, if it occurs in 2012 (or any other day in the future)?

If some God(s) wanted to rid the Earth of evil, and win against "the beast"/"the devil" (etc), why not do that right now? It's only 6 years from now, why not do that now? I can't see the point. I can't see the purpose of a set date in terms of what some God would want. To me, it makes no sense.

People said the world was going to end and that the judgement day was going to happen in 2000, and nothing happened.

86.140.88.15 03:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Links
Wikipedia is not a link farm. This article had passed the spam event horizon. Please review the links and re-add only those which provide genuinely valuable context over and above what would be included in a great article. Simply being a site which presents a view about eschatology is not enough. Guy (Help!) 10:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sensationalist Dispensationalists
 * A Literal Interpretation of Scripture
 * Tribulation Forces Study of the End Times and Bible Prophecy
 * Eschatology in the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica
 * Death, Afterlife and Eschatology
 * Eschatology: Study of the Last Things
 * Reformed Eschatology
 * "The End Again" A Discussion on Eschatological Concepts by Gregory S. Neal (a United Methodist approach)
 * Dispensational Eschatology
 * Mid-Acts Dispensational Eschatology
 * Revelation The magazine of apocalyptic art and literature
 * 2012 Eschaton Mayan Calendrics, Earth Changes, Eschatology
 * Exit Mundi A collection of end-of-world scenarios
 * A Brief History of the End of Everything, a BBC 4 Radio series
 * End of the World - Flash Parody
 * Armageddon Online - End of the World Scenarios & Extinction Events
 * Religious Tolerance - End of the World Prophecies
 * Signs of the End: A Discovery of Biblical Timelines
 * 220 Dates for the End of the world
 * It's The End Of The World As We Know It...Again - A humorous look at apocalyptic prophecy and the history of Doomsday hysteria; listing over 400 failed and soon-to-fail End of the World predictions.
 * What is the Jewish Belief About ‘The End of Days’? chabad.org
 * The End Time Pilgrim - A guide into the final seven years of this age
 * The Clash Between Good and Evil, A Catholic POV
 * John Paul II and The Loss of Faith


 * For Jehovah's Witness beliefs
 * A scripturally based approach to the climax of the age
 * Mormon Transhumanist Association

Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, & Luke 21:32
Controversial though they may be, probably need to mention in the Christianity section that these passages tend to indicate that Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christians believed that the end of the world was imminent. TimeDog 15:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the greatest pain is a new pain that is no more than the last?
'Perhaps the greatest pain is a new pain that is no more than the last?Because I am at present deep in reverie, i cannot - unfortunately - review the other discussions. I barely have time to read the article itself more do I analyze it with brevity.

It might be providential to examine a lesser known root of the word - World. Prior to the conviction it was imagined that wonder came from an aggregate form of the mind known as "world". Further it might be found "The world is within you.".

Perhaps the "End of the world" is only a permutation of cultural progression, and not the end to life itself?

Godspeed to your thoughts and their produce, may you find the peace I have. I would hold it from no other. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.239.107.204 (talk) 05:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Moved specific religious beliefs to End Times
And merged them, leaving this page for the concept of Eschatology. I hope this helps resolve the messy duplication--Cberlet 22:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't Islamic Eschatology likewise be moved? --catcherinthesty 08:31, 30 July 2008 (EST)

As no further comments have been made, and it's redundant to the appropriate section of the End Times article, I have removed both the Islamic Eschatology and Judeo-Christian sections. --Catcherinthesty (talk) 05:20, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Four last things
Four last things redirects here (my interest was piqued by The Seven Deadly Sins and the Four Last Things) but I can't figure out WHY. What is up? Anybody? --mordicai. (talk) 18:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, it is because "Judgement" of the Four Last Things means both personal & universal. Maybe it would be better directed to the more appropriate, more Catholic page on the end of the world.  --mordicai. (talk) 12:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternate meaning
Eschatology can also simply mean a theory or philosophy of what happens to us after death (with no End Times baggage). Homer's presentation (Odyssey 11) of the dead in the underworld is an eschatology; so is Plato's "Myth of Er" and Cicero's "Dream of Scipio." FWIW Ifnkovhg (talk) 22:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Islamic Eschatology
Removed unsourced statements about how "the commonest of men" must realize we are living in the end times, and added to the two quotes: maybe they're from the Qur'an? I didn't delete the remark about how it's been scientifically proven that Muhammad's "major signs" have all been scientifically proven to be true, since it has a source I can't check. But I find it very unlikely that the reference given backs up the sweeping and slightly vague claims.

The article should be well referenced.....
according to the google scholar search

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=eschatology&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=2006&as_yhi=2008&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr= —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.21.40.253 (talk) 03:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

and this

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=allintitle%3A+eschatology&as_ylo=2007&as_yhi=2008&btnG=Search —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.21.40.253 (talk) 04:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Links 2: The Return
These are the external lings I removed. Please don't add them back to the article unless there’s a clear consensus. →(Speak&bull;MorgothX&bull;Havoc) 02:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Consider carefully if these are really important to the article.
 * Removed due to mising pages
 * American Lutheran Views on Eschatology and How They Related to the American Protestants by John M. Brenner|137 KiB}}
 * (465 KiB)
 * (192 KiB)
 * (37.3 KiB)
 * Personal Websites / Possibly Unrealible
 * Postmillennialism
 * End Times Encyclopedia
 * Rapture Ready website
 * Not Relevent to Article Topic
 * The Berean Call, a web-ministry of Dave Hunt
 * Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Stunningly, unacceptably short article
For example: Philosophy, which was misleadingly titled "Philosophy," the logical interpretation of which is "the philosophy of eschatology." I've changed to "Eschatology in Philosophy," which is what the content, such as it is, requires.

1. Wikipedia devotes a whopping two paragraphs to this subject.

2. Para 1 jumps from Augustine to Ibn al-Nafis to Hegel to Marx, whose philosophy of religion was only "eschatological" in advocating its dissolution, outside the definition of eschatology. Para then ends with a short non-relevant sentence on theodicy -- should be removed.

3. Para 2 is entirely one of the way-too-many-in-Wikipedia citations of transhumanism. It seems that adherents to transhumanism are among the most enthusiastic contributors to Wikipedia. When a critical mass of transhumanist citations populate Wikipedia, Wikipedia will lose its credibility as a resource/source.

Perhaps this article should combine with End Time, and the notion of a useful, annotated (if intellectually repellent) link farm be revisited for this page.

Dstlascaux (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * [I've moved this section from the top of the page to the bottom, so it fits in chronologically with other entries] Dom Kaos (talk) 13:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Dstlascaux: The article is only brief because no one with sufficient knowledge of the area has stepped up to expand it. Are you the one? --gdm (talk) 00:50, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Clean-up
I boldly archived the talk, just get things moving forward some. I am going to put a copy of this article in my userspace (I'll update with a link later), to work on extensive clean-up, re-writing for this article. Thanks. Athanasius • Quicumque vult  16:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Duplication of Material
The page already has links to eschatology pages for the major religions (and others), so it doesn't make sense to repeat that information on this page. Looking at the various wiki sites on this subject, there already seems to be a lot of duplication. Let's just keep a few introductory comments on this page to whet people's appetites and point them toward the links for the existing pages on the various eschatologies, some of which are very good. --gdm (talk) 00:43, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed! I think the topic "End Times" should be kept as a teaser to point to the page on eschatology. There is a definitive segment of evangelical Christianity who will be more familiar with the term "End Times" rather than the more specific term "Eschatology." The bulk of material should be placed under "Eschatology." Coldtangerines (talk) 15:37, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Merge End time into Eschatology
The "End time" article is basically an article all about comparative eschatology beliefs and this material really belongs in the Eschatology article. If I'm not mistaken, the term "end times" refers to a specific set of apocalyptic beliefs in evangelical Christianity, hence that article should be kept but rewritten to specifically discuss that more narrow topic.

Opinions? I'll keep this open to discussion for the next month or so, but if there's no consensus against it by then, I plan on merging the material from "End time" into "Eschatology". Peter G Werner (talk) 07:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * As you say, the only reason for a separate article on "End Times" would be if it had a more specific focus, but with a title like that, it's hard to see how that would be the case. Your proposal to merge the two seems reasonable. Doing it will take a little of your time, though, so we should be grateful for your willingness to take it on. The only thing I'd say is that we need to make sure that the "Eschatology" page does not become more than a general overview, an introduction to the subject. If we start adding too much to the individual sections ("Christian Eschatology" etc.), we'll be duplicating what's on the more specific eschatology pages listed in the box on the top right, which would create the same problem all over again. (Also see comments in "Duplication" section, above.) --gdm (talk) 18:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with gdm, we need to be careful about the merge. And we need someone to do it.  Simply said, I don't have enough time on my hands otherwise I would...
 * -CaradocTheKing (talk) 17:27, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * support merge. History2007 (talk) 00:58, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. Unfortunately, this is not about merging of only two articles. Parts of content from End time should be moved to Jewish eschatology, Muslim eschatology and so on.Biophys (talk) 19:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * support merge. Jacobponnose (talk) 02:37, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * support merge. BUT Add more on science based technological singularity, now becoming a major field of study at universities such as Stanford, etc. HkFnsNGA (talk) 15:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * support above position - subjugate. "End Times" is a work-horse phrase for Pentecostal Christians - who believe that we should expect today the same tempo of miraculous events as appears in the New Testament - which is described as "the outpouring of the holy spirit" Pentecostals contextualize themselves as being right on the cusp of "the End Time" and every newspaper headline brings the world an inch closer to the events in Revelations - including most notably the rise of religious apartheid in Palestine/Israel. Presumably: "End Times" is properly a section under Christian Eschatology. 24.74.135.68 (talk) 23:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose merge. (Don't know why with all the supports this hasn't been done, so my comment is belated.) "End time," as noted by Peter G Werner above, is used mainly if not exclusively for the apocalyptic beliefs of evangelical Christianity, which certainly merit elucidation in their own article. Other terms are better suited for the other eschatologies. Biophys is therefore correct in pointing out that End time should not contain the eschatology of belief systems that don't primarily use the term. If End time is merged (after having its off-topic material removed), it should be merged into Christian eschatology, not this article. The broader eschatology is also a concept that can be discussed within some philosophical and religious belief systems in classical antiquity; "end time" would never be used in that context. The most common use of the term is not scientific, and technological singularity is therefore confusing to have at the top. Since each variety of religious eschatology has its own article, each is only summarized here, but the section on Jewish eschatology seems short compared to that of Islam or Christianity. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose merge with this page -- This page should be merged mostly into Christian eschatology or Jewish, Muslim, etc. as noted above. There is too much content here to simple merge into Eschatology, as a librarian I can warn you these articles are getting too long already.  Let's go to the Internet's strengths and create more subpages.  Joel J. Rane (talk) 22:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Support There seems to be a clear consensus that End time needs merging, though with other pages as well as this one. I've added tags (not sure if they were ever present in the original discussion). I realize this will be a difficult merge. The two opposes have advocated merging with specific religion/philosophy eschatology pages as well as this one. That's still a merge. --JFH (talk) 19:06, 14 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose merge. -- Quote from jfhutson ("...clear consensus that End time needs merging,...") is inaccurate. No clear consensus and a faulty merge...in fact, a faulty pair of pages. Scholars of eschatology (if Wikipedia was actually considered accurate in scholarly communities) would see these two pages as poorly categorized and populated. Each of their respective fields do not overlap, but in fact these two Wiki pages have done just that: some elements have been incorrectly placed in one page when they should, in fact, have been on the other page or on both pages. However, merging them makes both pages even more inaccurate from a theological standpoint than they already are. A reassignment of information needed; not a merge. --JF (talk) 16:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * comment There is clearly an issue, I have just come here looking for something and have to go to three places to gather the info. If we merge, improve or whatever something serious must be done. End Days, Day of Judgment, This word eschatology (never heard the word until now). It is all talking about the same thing. There needs to be cross reference and integration. merely merging might not fix it. --Inayity (talk) 18:09, 16 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose merge. Eschatology is a much broader topic than End Times. Perhaps the problem is that the article on Eschatology does not reflect the breadth of the topic. Dr. John R. Stephenson's book on Eschatology discusses the "narrow sense" and the "broad sense" of the term. The broad sense of Eschatology may be found in the twin terms "already" and "not yet". In other words, part of the eschatological hope has already occurred, but the realization of the Eschaton is not yet. The term "eschatological hope" is telling, because while End Times theology is mainly apocalyptic, the Eschaton is something to look forward to rather than be fearful of. Eschatology is connected to teleology, the philosophical examination of the purpose of everything. The "End Times" is descriptive of the end of the world, but Eschatology touches on the purpose of it all, including the reason why the cosmos and human beings were created in the first place. Linking to the End Times page would be appropriate, but the contents need to stay where they are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlsonloggie (talk • contribs) 02:56, 13 July 2013 (UTC) Kris Carlson (talk) 03:01, 13 July 2013 (UTC)--Kris Carlson (talk) 03:03, 13 July 2013 (UTC)--Kris Carlson (talk) 03:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support merge. What I came here for. Who's for requesting this in End time?--78.156.109.166 (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Support the idea of a merge, but oppose exact merge request. I too have only heard "end times" refer to "christian apocalypse", but the End time article current content is more broadly "eschatology", and I don't see a source backing that up the end time] article's strange definition. My main concern with the proposal as written is that "end times" should redirect to "christian eschatology", not here, unless a source can be provided. I would support a new merge request in [[end time that it redirect to christian eschatology, and that the contents be merged into eschatology and/or christian eschatology as deemed appropriate by the merging editors. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 22:19, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Eschatological Categories: Suggested
Inclusion of the End Time article should be delayed until a broader view of eschatology is derived first.

For the most part the article treats eschatology under the category of religion. But what of scientific, social, political, asthetic, and historical eschatology? The knowledge of life after death and related topics has excited the minds of every culture in history because eschatology is one of the primary subjects of science and the arts. If a scientist postulates the origins of life from organic inquiry, he also investigates the causes of the end of that life - perhaps in the form of pandemics. The astrophysicist contemplates an eschatological framework when studying the mass and trajectory of comets and asteroids. Global warming, a dying sun, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics are further illustrations.

Also, religious eschatology needs to be distinguished from futurology and other seemingly related fields. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leabeater (talk • contribs) 10:56, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Futures Studies and Trans-humanism
Under this section it says ... Quote : "The Sun's expansion will obviously not lead to the end of the Universe. Its effects will be limited to our Solar System. It will inevitably lead to the disappearance of our planet. Life on Earth will become impossible long before the planet is actually swallowed up by the Sun due to a rise in temperature."

This is not cited and is incorrect. Yes the sun will expand to engulf our (CURRENT) planetary orbit, however the earth's orbit will at the same change and become a larger and wider orbit, placing the planet outside the new sun's surface.--12.31.160.200 (talk) 19:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Neither of these claims is true, and both have since been removed from the article. -- Beland (talk) 02:48, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

HA!
"Not to be confused with Scatology." - current redirect distinction at the top of the page

Pretty easy to confuse the two, I agree. ;)

Still, someone with integrity should probably remove that as it's quite blantantly just the author's opinion as to the pedagogical significance of the topic and does not accord with a neutral presentation of an, apparently, controversial article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetname (talk • contribs) 12:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, looks like the discussion on the scatology page includes someone claiming that spelling and pronunciation similarities (especially in spanish/portugese) make the redirect appropriate. But...still. Perhaps someone should look into this a bit more, just to make sure that the linguistic similarities do exist and that they constitute an important enough problem as to warrant a redirect, especially given that such a redirect can easily be accidentally interpreted as a commentary with respect to the philosophical claims and implications of the article's content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetname (talk • contribs) 12:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Eschatology of Jehovah's Witnesses
I know Jehovah's Witnesses are a minor region, but would it be worth linking to Eschatology of Jehovah's Witnesses? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.237.97 (talk) 04:49, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This has since been added to the article. -- Beland (talk) 02:48, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Dubious
I think we should remove "physics" from being listed a field in which eschatology is studied. The Cake 2 (talk) 08:23, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation with Scatology
The word "Eschatology," for those who are not well-versed with this philosophical concept, may be confused with the similarly-pronounced word study of feces, "scatology." Hence, the need to add the template to the Eschatology article. A similar template was added to the Scatology article.

PS: I claim ownership of the edit, and as of this writing, I have reverted User:Rolf h nelson's previous edit. THE IMPERIOUS DORK (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Suggestions for editing
1.3 Christianity 1.3.1 After Messianic Judaism, I would like to post the following sentence.

Establishing the Doomsday Faith in the New Testament
Tokinokawa (talk) 12:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC)Tokinokawa (talk) 12:40, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Moved to the text.Tokinokawa (talk) 00:28, 10 September 2020 (UTC)


 * This looks like WP:OR. It would need secondary sourcing to be in the article. - MrOllie (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

It was deleted, so I rewrote it.

New Testament doomsday belief・・・・・・I omitted it.

Tokinokawa (talk) 02:01, 11 September 2020 (UTC)Tokinokawa (talk) 22:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

"Eschatology" means theological, not secular, beliefs
The current introduction states:

"Eschatology... is a part of theology, physics, philosophy, and futurology concerned with what are believed to be the final events of history, the ultimate destiny of humanity...

The Oxford English Dictionary defines eschatology as "The department of theological science concerned with ‘the four last things: death, judgement, heaven and hell’."

If the OED (and many other dictionaries as well) define eschatology as theological (or at least doctrinal), why are we presuming to define it differently?

Not that it matters, but I also have only heard it in the theological context. Uses of 'scientific eschatology' or 'secular eschatology' are rare and somewhat ironic, like modern uses of 'horseless carriage'. (Note that the 'Carriage' article does not devote any significant text to the topic of 'horseless carriages', instead restricting such discussion to the articles for the more usual term 'Automobile'.) At the very least, we should make it clear that, by definition, "scientific eschatology" is science, not eschatology (just as Wikipedia makes it clear that "rifled muskets" are technically rifles, not muskets).

It's fine to keep the existing brief content relating to non-religious eschatologies, but we should make it clear that such uses are unusual, and they should include links to the main articles where they are discussed in their more usual terms, such as Human Extinction, Future of the Earth, and Ultimate fate of the universe. Alternatively, rather than linking to the last two, we could create a small new article called, say, 'Human Extinction in the Far Future', which links to and briefly summarizes Solar evolution, Ultimate fate of the universe, and throws in the eventual solidification of the Earth's outer core. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 22:28, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
 * But then you get to stuff like Marx's belief that the proletariat will inevitably overthrow the bourgeoisie once and for all and establish a truly communist society (instead of simply shuffling some of the proletariat into a neo-bourgeoisie), which is neither religious nor scientific... There's also the Technological Singularity, which cannot be scientifically proven (and so is conjecture), but is definitely concerned with science.  They are concerned with the end of the world, the only difference is that they are not religious.  Ian.thomson (talk) 03:24, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Marx's belief is doctrinal, but not explicitly theological. But looking on Google Scholar for "eschatology marx", confirms my suspicion that the articles that use 'eschatology' to refer to Marxism are arguing that Marxism is *implicitly* theological, by comparing it with Christian eschatology. When people say "Marxism is eschatology" they're saying that Marxism is quasi-religious. If there's no special word in the English language that includes secular beliefs about the "end of the world", then we should accept that we can't change the English language on our own. If you think we should have an article on everyone's beliefs about the end of the world, secular and theological, then such an article should just be titled "Beliefs about the End of the World". Rolf H Nelson (talk) 04:24, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Is eschatology part of philosophy? By default we must assume that eschatology isn't part of a field until documented evidence is found to the contrary. What evidence is there to justify this article's claim that eschatology is part of philosophy? That someone who Wikipedia classes as a philosopher once talked about eschatology (e.g. Saint Augustine) does not imply that eschatology is part of philosophy, any more than the fact that someone who Wikipedia classes as a physicist once talked about alchemy (e.g. Isaac Newton) implies that alchemy is part of physics. On the contrary, there is ample evidence that eschatology is not part of philosophy. For example, Wikipedia's own article on philosophy contains no mention of eschatology or cognates. More tellingly, the "most comprehensive bibliography of philosophy" (http://philpapers.org/browse/all), which is edited by hundreds of professional philosophers, contains no mention of eschatology or cognates. Hence, pending documented evidence that eschatology is part of philosophy, I have removed the section on eschatology in philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.225.212.62 (talk) 07:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that eschatology is more a part of theology than it is a part of philosophy, but both items of evidence you give seem invalid. First, while eschatology doesn't appear in the philosophy article, neither does it appear in the theology article. Second, (http://philpapers.org/s/eschatology) gives ~200 matches, maybe there was a typo in your search? Rolf H Nelson (talk) 00:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I misunderstood your point, you were talking about the fact that eschatology isn't one of the 4638 categories listed on (philpapers.org/browse/all), you weren't talking about their search engine. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 00:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Rolf. This is 68.225.212.62 on a different IP address.  You are correct that my point was that the 4638 categories of philosophical inquiry at PhilPapers does not include eschatology or cognates.  (Of course a comprehensive collection of articles within just about any field will contain a few articles with the word 'eschatology' in the title.) With respect to your first point, I would point out that, while Wikipedia's theology article proper does not reference eschatology or cognates, many of theology's 'sub-articles', such as the article 'outline of theology' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_theology) prominently reference eschatology.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.135.115.36 (talk) 02:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

As a Christian pastor of over 30 years, I am all too familiar with the term "end times". Perhaps it can be merged or subordinated under the topic of eschatology, if such were called "Christian Eschatology". I cannot speak for any group of people, but many of those looking to wikipedia on these subjects are more likely than not seeking something to their specific faith or discipline. Perhaps a general eschatology page explaining the general idea with an expanding list of links to more exact streams of thought on the subject would practically speaking work better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gratefulmealways (talk • contribs) 13:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Commenting here as it's related to the above: when seeing secular I noticed it was unusual in the description of a theological concept, then noticed it was sourced to a suboptimal Lulu-published (self-published source). Looking at the source, I found that the text was also a copyright violation directly copied from there, so have removed that material from the lead for now.  — Paleo  Neonate  – 02:59, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Secular forms of eschatology
How about a separate section on modern, secular forms of eschatology? The article mentions Marxism as one form of this, but elements of eschatology could probably also be found in certain forms of radical anarcho-liberalism. To me, there also seems to be evidence that the ecological movement uses elements of eschatology, most obviouslsy in the debate on global warming, for example. --Thewolf37 (talk) 21:29, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Without sources it's OR. Joja  lozzo  22:36, 27 October 2012 (UTC)