Talk:Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan

Name
The article's name limits its scope to the Abdullah's physical arrival in Transjordan with some background before and after that. I would suggest either renaming it to something more about the nation's establishment or that it be merged with the Emirate of Transjordan article or the Abdullah I of Jordan article or both. I would be more inclined to the latter option especially as wiki guidelines require that standalone articles have in-depth sources that are dedicated to the topic. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:54, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * the scope of the article is intended to cover the period from his leaving Medina in October 1920 to his controlling the country by March 1921. It doesn’t fit in other articles as a core component – this was a military and political event. I would have called it an invasion, but scholars use more passive terms like “entry” because this was not a move of aggression.
 * As an aside, the term “dedicated to” in your last sentence is not correct; that is not a requirement.
 * Once fully developed, this article should provide an in-depth answer to what exactly Abdullah did to get himself into the position of being appointed Emir of Transjordan by the British. There is lots of scholarly focus on this, as the decisions he took over these months were crucial, and scholars love to debate whether this was all part of a tactical master plan by Abdullah vs whether he intended something else and got lucky. It needs a full article if we are to give it due coverage.
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 06:22, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Dates
The first sentence of the lead has 30 September 1920 until 2 March 1921, I think the first is some mistake? And the second is the arrival in Amman from Ma'an? The given reference has the arrival date at 11 November which I think is a mistake, it's the 21st, right? Selfstudier (talk) 11:48, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes 21 Nov was when he arrived in Ma'an, 2 March was his arrival in Amman, and 11 April was the proclamation. 30 September was when he left Mecca for Medina. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:19, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, I am not comfortable with this edit because it appears to make the core of the article just about his arrival at Ma'an. The article is intended to cover all of his actions from him deciding to go (30 Sept) to the country being under his control (end March). Perhaps the word "entry" is being stretched too far, so if you have any other ideas for the title that would be great. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:08, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Some options for "Abdullah's ??? Transjordan":
 * "...advance into..."
 * "...occupation of..."
 * "...coming to power in..."
 * "...takeover of..."
 * "...intervention into..."
 * Options discarded as not used by scholars and not representative of what happened include: invade, conquer, subdue, subjugate.
 * Also pinging for his views. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see what you mean. I can't figure out whether he "decided" to go or whether Hussein asked him to go (because someone had asked him). To me, the most interesting thing about this time period is what both of the brothers (and Hussein) were up to and why. I am still thinking of it as all being part of the "Sharifian solution" but let me have a think about the title anyway.Selfstudier (talk) 09:28, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't really think of a suitable title, tbh. However I do think that where you have two articles now, one running from July 1920 to this one, running from September(?), it probably should be just one. The division seems arbitrary and I think the events of the two periods are in any case, connected.Selfstudier (talk) 10:20, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I thought about that but it would mean merging a highly complex "historical time period" with the country's foundational "political action". The scope of the two articles is intended to be as follows:
 * Interregnum - describes the historical time period between the collapse of Faisal's Syria to the start of Abdullah's emirate, focusing on the various autonomous local governments that were set up, the Zionist attempts to have the area added to Palestine, and the development of British Sherifian policy for the region
 * Abdullah's entry - describes his building of his authority over the region, starting with his father's decision for him to drop his plans for Iraq and move to "reclaim" Faisal's territory of Syria, his political outreach to the Transjordan local leadership and the ultimate occupation of the whole country, putting him in a strong position at the Cairo Conference.
 * It's similar to the difference between the articles Mandate for Palestine and Mandatory Palestine. There was a time that those articles were combined into one, but now they have very different and very clear scopes.
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 10:32, 8 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm not really convinced, I tend to regard this whole period as being more about Iraq (Transjordan only existed as a vaguely defined region) and the British trying to make their minds up about what to do (and how to do it cheap given money problems back at home). What's not that clear to me is what the Hashemite plan was (or even if such a plan existed, maybe there were 3 individual plans).Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * While we are on the subject of dates, we can see what Faisal was up to in the same time period. I have him licking his wounds in Italy from around August and trying to get appointments in London (apparently at the behest of Hussein who seems to have decided to forgive him for the whole Syria thing). He finally gets to see King George in early December and then we have all the (in)famous FO meetings after that.Selfstudier (talk) 12:48, 8 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Had a quick look on the scholarship now, and none of them are using these terms. Most of the sources either use "entrance" or "arrival". But there are deeper problems rather than just the name; the problem of defining the scope. I am heavily inclined towards merging the interregnum and the arrival articles into something like the Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan where all of this can be put together along with Herbert's first (also known as Salt conference), second and whatever visits. What can also be discussed is the question of whether the Balfour declaration applied to the area or not; some background on the Ma'an Sanjak; tribal leaders in the area; and so on.. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:34, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That still requires two articles because the local governments during the Interregnum period do not fit cleanly into an article about "establishment". So to use my framework above, you would have:
 * Interregnum - describes the the various autonomous local governments that were set up during this time period
 * Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan - describes the Zionist attempts to have the area added to Palestine, the development of British Sherifian policy for the region, Abdullah's building of his authority over the region, starting with his father's decision for him to drop his plans for Iraq and move to "reclaim" Faisal's territory of Syria, his political outreach to the Transjordan local leadership and the ultimate occupation of the whole country, putting him in a strong position at the Cairo Conference.
 * Onceinawhile (talk) 10:56, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, these autonomous governments are relevant to the Emirate's establishment. It was their failure that led the local population to support a unified national government under Abdullah and that led the British to support Abdullah. Also for example, how the British discouraged local leaders of Transjordan from meeting Abdullah in Ma'an. The interregnum period is the background to the nation's establishment. The way I see it that the name of the article would be the Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan and the scope would be defined from the fall of the Hashemite Syrian Kingdom in mid 1920 (or perhaps earlier to the onset or end of the Arab Revolt) to Britain's formal recognition of Transjordan as a state in 1923 (or perhaps later till the first organic law of the country was ratified in 1928). Makeandtoss (talk) 11:26, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * In fact the local gov effort failed prior, Faisal had set up 8 units (liwa?), 3 of them being in Transjordan area, and they didn't work either.Selfstudier (talk) 11:39, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Not exactly local, more of decentralization. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:40, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

The Interregnum article is intended to serve an important purpose in the series of country-time-period articles across Wikipedia; in those articles, perhaps the most helpful navigation tool for the reader is the "preceded by" and "succeeded by" links in the infoboxes. I have just updated these infoboxes in Arab Kingdom of Syria and Emirate of Transjordan, so hopefully it should be clear what I mean.

Articles with titles "Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan" or "Abdullah's entry into Transjordan" are not country time period articles - they are about political actions. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:43, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I see. Then we are on the same page if you support the former naming of the second article. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:41, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks Makeandtoss. If agrees with the renaming proposal then I am happy to submit to the majority. In practice it would mean moving the sub-section “Interregnum_(Transjordan)” into this article. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:02, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I am happy to leave it to you to do as you think best, just because I am not convinced about something doesn't mean I am going to make an issue out of it. I'm not convinced about the value of infoboxes if it comes to that:)Selfstudier (talk) 21:20, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Herbert Samuel

 * Background on Herbert Samuel's visit in August 1920 is lacking. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:57, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That thesis from Rudd (Idk who he is but Teitelbaum seems to approve of him) has a lot of material about Samuel as well as the local tribes and their politics.Selfstudier (talk) 09:08, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Renaming and expanding
We are still on the same page about renaming this article into the "Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan" right?

I added quite valuable information about Al-Salt and Umm Qais meetings. What is the better course? Having three articles: Herbert Samuel's first visit to Transjordan (Al-Salt, August 1920), Umm Qais conference as referred to in Arab historiography (Umm Qais, September 1920) and Herbert Samuel's second visit to Transjordan (Amman, April 1921). Or do we just add these three to this article and its new name? Makeandtoss (talk) 16:03, 26 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Only just saw this comment now. I am certainly not wedded to the current title, but I do think the article should be about Abdullah's actions. When he made the journey originally it wasn't at all clear, even to him, that he was going to establish an Emirate of Transjordan. This was a political and military move, meant to assert himself in a period of flux. Similar to an event which would feature on List of invasions, but not technically an invasion given there was no established power in the area at the time. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:43, 23 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't have any particular idea about the title although "Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan" sounds to me more like the formal procedure than anything else, something less formal and using Abdullah's name seems better.Selfstudier (talk) 09:22, 24 July 2019 (UTC)


 * There were two conferences on the political status of Transjordan before Abdullah arrived and there was no mention of Abdullah other than the ambiguous demand to be ruled by an “Arab emir”. Putting Abdullah in the title makes no sense to me at all. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:28, 24 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Surely that is the whole point. There was no Transjordan then (other than as an ill defined region) and arguably would not have been without Abdullah having appeared on the scene, whatever his reasons were for doing so. It could just as well have ended up as part of Iraq.Selfstudier (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The British gave their consent to an independent Arab government in Transjordan in July 1920. Abdullah’s role came after that. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:49, 24 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The AKoS, which in theory if not in practice, had been ruling the area, ceased to do so after Maysalun. In any case Hussein had incorporated up to Ma'an in the Hejaz. This period is what Once is calling the Interregnum (Transjordan). There was no government and the British had only decided that nothing East of the Jordan would be in Palestine (ie subject to the Zionist provisions). Churchill and his "What is the Syria..." (which question he could easily have answered with an Ottoman map and the Sykes-Picot agreement).

At the end of September 1920, Curzon instructed Vansittart to leave the eastern boundary of Palestine undefined, and to avoid “any definite connection” between Transjordan and Palestine, in order to leave the way open for an Arab government in Transjordan.

"His Majesty's Government are already treating 'Trans-Jordania' as separate from the Damascus State, while at the same time avoiding any definite connection between it and Palestine, thus leaving the way open for the establishment there, should it become advisable, of some form of independent Arab government, perhaps by arrangement with King Hussein or other Arab chiefs concerned."

Things were up in the air, Faisal was supposed to be installed at Damascus and Abdullah was (theoretically per Syrian Arab Congress) going to Iraq. Then suddenly Faisal was floating and the situation was that the Mandates were delayed but the French had got theirs, the Zionists theirs and the Arabs had got nothing, thus Cairo conference to sort out the mess (tangle).Selfstudier (talk) 09:40, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
 * However, nothing was mentioned about the Hashemites during Herbert’s first visit in 1920 where he stated that not only the area would be separate from that of Palestine but that also he supported the establishment of local governments there; another aspect that could be covered in a pan “Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan” article. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:54, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That is true but Samuel's primary interest was only in adding to the Zionist position in Palestine and Curzon took him to task for his intervention, spelling out that Britain (meaning Samuel as well) was to have a strictly limited role in the area.(Curzon wrote later in February 1921: "I am very concerned about Transjordania... Sir H.Samuel wants it as an annex of Palestine and an outlet for the Jews. Here I am against him.). The local governments, which never really went anywhere, in the end merely functioned as a stopgap measure. When Abdullah showed up, the local resistance pretty much folded and he was able to "conquer" the area without any fighting.

Having said all that, I don't object to a name change that doesn't include his name, I just don't like the formal title. I would prefer something that sounds less like paperwork and more of a process, "Creating Transjordan" or something like that (and I would still put Interregnum into it if it were down to me).Selfstudier (talk) 12:45, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Since the page Emirate of Transjordan already has a section Establishment of the Emirate, then one might as well merge this into it? Selfstudier (talk) 09:12, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Naturally yes. I was thinking of trying to expand this article as much as possible to see if it deserves a standalone article or not. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:41, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I copied the bibliography over in any case, since it is useful there.Selfstudier (talk) 12:07, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

More dates
The opening section mentions something occurring on the date "29 Feb 1921." Can't be. PurpleChez (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Good spot :) That's an error in the source (Vatikiotis), Rudd just has late February so I put that while we see if we can pin it down exactly.Selfstudier (talk) 16:57, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "leg": From Jordan:  From History of Jordan:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 20:52, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Herbert Samuel in Transjordan (moved from user talk)
Would you or know what happened during Herbert Samuel second visit (as described by the Library of Congress pictures) to Transjordan between 17 and 21 April 1921? says that its on 18 April 1921 with Samuel proclaiming Emir Abdullah as ruler of Transjordan. I tried googling to find any sources discussing the visit and the proclamation but to no avail. This source seems to quote the speech but it is inaccessible. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * An archival collection I have access to probably has Samuel's report. I'll look it up tomorrow. Zerotalk 13:45, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Wilson is normally quite precise around this time, but her work here dates that photo in May 1923. Which is definitely incorrect as the border of the photo states explicitly 18 April 1921. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:15, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The incident is also wrong. This picture is about the proclamation of Emir Abdullah as ruler of Transjordan in 1921, the Foreign Office assurance was a separate thing in 1923. And this begs the question, what happened on 11 April 1921 if it is designated as the establishment of the Emirate of Transjordan if Herbert's proclamation was a week later on 18 April 1921? Wilson's book could contain this information but most of it is inaccessible for me. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:46, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The 11 April date is the date the government was formed, see footnote d at: Emirate_of_Transjordan. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:56, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The Cabinet gave final approval (required by the agreement) to Churchill's scheme (and sanction for the initial subsidy) on 11 April Last part of thisSelfstudier (talk) 15:23, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting minutes of the British Cabinet on 11 April 1921 but it seems to be discussing British military presence which was from what I understood apparently downgraded from a couple of garrisons to a couple of airdromes that would be frequented by airplanes from Lydda. The footnote that Oncenawhile referred to explains that 11 April 1921 was the date of the establishment of the government by Emir Abdullah. I think details regarding 11-21 April 1921 would be of great importance to the Emirate of Transjordan's articles. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:55, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, I completely agree. The period is quite interesting, Samuel and co were, let's say, not really on board with what Churchill and co were trying to do and even perhaps disposed to try and sabotage things a little bit. I will look out what I can. You should remember that Abdullah was "on probation" at this time.Selfstudier (talk) 16:36, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "A six months trial that lasted a lifetime!"Makeandtoss (talk) 20:01, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't see anything in Timothy Paris's work either. Nor in Alon. They all jump over that moment as far as I can tell, which is strange as I had understood it to be the proclamation of the Emirate. Perhaps has seen something. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:20, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The closest I found in the Foreign Office archives is this telegram. Note the date and the location. Sir H. Samuel to Mr. Churchill. (Telegraphic.) P. Jerusalem, April 17, 1921. "YOUR telegram containing the decision of the Cabinet on the question of the Hedjaz subsidy reached me in Jerusalem but not in time to communicate with Feisal. When he mentioned need of 20,000l. a month I said that he was most favoured in knowing the real financial position in the Hedjaz. He then admitted that that figure was a guess, and he promised to send from Mecca an authentic budget for our guidance, and promised to urge his father to treat us in future with confidence. He is urging Abdullah to meet him on 20th April. If this meeting is arranged I will make endeavours to be present, since the three brothers might be brought to a definite issue about Transjordania. Abdullah can for the present keep external peace there; his rule, however, is more of a picnic than an administration, and can only be made scientific by an exceptional British adviser or, as was contemplated in our original scheme, by his resigning in favour of a Governor-General [sic], and I think the sooner the better. Abramson promises well. Proposition of my going to Jeddah, although fenced round, was avoided." From this seems likely that Samuel met Abdullah on April 20, but so far I didn't find a report on such a meeting. Zerotalk 06:29, 11 April 2020 (UTC)


 * http://www.telstudies.org/writings/letters/1921/210412_family.shtml Suggests there was a meeting, it seems perfectly possible, despite the pretty pix, that the whole thing was mostly for show, a bit of theatre.Selfstudier (talk) 10:49, 11 April 2020 (UTC)


 * p.40 et seq (and in general) of Guckian thesis is what you want I think, do you remember it? https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/3278/british%20relations%20phd.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y Selfstudier (talk) 12:46, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Interesting read, thanks. Every footnote in that section leads to CO 733/2. Shame it doesn’t mention anything about what they were reading in the ceremony. Onceinawhile (talk) 12:59, 11 April 2020 (UTC)


 * SOrry, I gave the wrong page number, should be 32 et seq, bits of the 18 April speech are at page 35.Selfstudier (talk) 13:22, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Alas the archival collection I can access does not include any of CO 733. Zerotalk 14:40, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Brief mention here. Zerotalk 14:54, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Excellent find! And this quote also:
 * "Prince Abdullah returned back to Amman after the conference on 30 March, 1921 to start from the 1st day of April establishing the central administration, asking Mr. Rasheed Tlee'a to form the first government which was formed on 11 April 1921 (Note 11) and few days after forming the government and according to the agreement between the prince and Herbert Samuel who visit Amman on 17 April 1921, for participating in establishing the new administration and the announcement of appointing Julius Abramson as a first representative to him in Amman (Note 12) This representative who was the First British Official will supervise the Transjordan affairs was called the British resident (Note 13)."


 * So Samuel's visit did not exactly proclaim Abdullah as ruler of Transjordan. He Marka where the Emir was based to inaugurate the aerodromes and he made a speech to a crowd stating Britain's policies. An Arabic source names Lord Edward Henry/Hay, Wind Ham Deeds, Lawrence and seven British advisors accompanied him. The advisors were appointed to help in governance. Gertrude Bell was also apparently present. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:40, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * what is the source for the above quote? It seems to nail down this question very well. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:54, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Google the quote and you will find it under the name of "The British Resident in Transjordan and the Financial Administration in the Emirate Transjordan 1921-1928", I can't link it since it's an automatic pdf download.. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:57, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Found it, it seems from the footnotes that he used this book. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes I checked the book nothing significant, it says the same thing in the paragraph. I wonder how we can access CO 733/2. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:02, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Does Mahafzah source his description to CO 733/2 as well? Onceinawhile (talk) 22:01, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * He uses a primary source from someone named "Zarkali", his book is titled "Two years in Amman 1921-1923". I will try to find an online version. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:12, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Khayr al-Din al-Zirikli . Onceinawhile (talk) 23:06, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Also inaccessible. I can look it up in a nearby library but unfortunately it would probably take months before it opens. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

For the record, Samuel's report on this trip to Amman is at CO 733/2/31 but the NA are not even providing quotes at the moment. Zerotalk 02:06, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * A article on those meetings would be very interesting. According to this writeup, other attendees included Sultan bin Zayed bin Khalifa Al Nahyan of Abu Dhabi and Shakir ibn Zaid of Taif. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:49, 15 April 2020 (UTC)