Talk:Esther Short Park

Stuff to Add 2007
Okay. This place is really beautiful and has many interesting features, including the playground, clock tower, bandstand, children's play fountain with columnar basalt and the neighboring outdoor farmers market. A lot of this stuff would be beautiful to photograph, so get on it, people! 8^) I personally believe the statue of the pioneer mother is the most emblematic, because it has been there the longest, but dang! Rorybowman 01:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Big error
The DYK on the Wikipedia front page appears to be wrong. The article claims that the park is the oldest urban public park west of the mississippi and gives this reference Link. This link says nothing about the park being the oldest west of the mississippi and a quick google search reveals at least one older park west of the mississippi in St. Louis here. If I'm reading this right it's a little disconcerting it made it through the nomination process. Grey Wanderer | Talk 17:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * St. Louis is on the river, and is not colloquially considered subject to being "west of the mississippi". In fact, the city is considered the last city before you qualify as being so, hence the nickname "Gateway to the West". I think the convention center link is not exactly a reliable source, as I'm sure they would be willing to bend the traditional conception of the phrase to promote their space, which after all, is the point of a promotional brochure such as the one you linked. None of the other sources I could find upon Googling it were reliable historical sources either. As for the ref, I may have used the wrong one, but I'm sure it must be in one of these history refs, as it's pretty much common knowledge. I have a good history of SW Washington text at home, so I'll add a ref from that shortly. VanTucky  (talk) 18:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

St. Louis, Missouri in which the park is located, is entirely west of the Mississippi River. Here is another source that is not the convention center link. I don't think the city website you provided is anymore independent than the convention center link that I provided. The DYK has been changed, by an admin, to simply read that the park was founded in the fifties. Thanks Grey Wanderer | Talk 18:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I just want to thank you for not giving me the time or courtesy to provide an alternate source like I just said I would. Really helpful. VanTucky  (talk) 18:49, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey calm down, I pointed out the error and it was fixed before I saw your comment. But please don't take offense because it was changed, it is important that the main page, as the face Wikipedia presents to the world is accurate. So without a source it really can't stay. I think you'll find other agree with me on the talk page. I also caution you that it is entirely possible that the text you have has an error. Grey Wanderer | Talk 19:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Another note, according to the City of Portland, Oregon, the first park in Portland was established in 1852; see this link: http://www.portlandonline.com/parks/index.cfm?c=39473&a=95955. Dglenn 19:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe VanTucky is looking for Mike Snyder's comment in the article's second reference, who said "the West" not "west of the Mississippi". Since the St. Louis date is earlier, it has a better chance of being the earliest unless it can be shown it wasn't really a park or something. Art LaPella 20:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Just an update: while the refs provided here are convincing, I find it odd that the St. Louis article or any of its descendants make mention of the park at all, and there is no article. Also, as to Portland issue, the ref says the land was aquired in 1852, which is different than the official establishment as a public park. VanTucky (talk) 16:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe the St. Louis article makes no mention of the park because it is relatively non-notable to St. Louisanians, other than it having some cool architecture. One has to consider that f things that are "first west of the mississippi" in St. Louis are so common its not really a criteria for notability. Yes the portland article does not say when the park was established we should probably figure that out. Also Esther Short Park was apparently not called a "park" until the early 1900s before then it was simply the town square. Which brings me to the question of how we are defining park? If a town square is a park then the issue is even more confusing because there are many towns in "the west" with town squares predating the founding of Esther Short Park or even Vancouver for that matter. Wiki says a park is "A park is a bounded area of land, usually in its natural or semi-natural (landscaped) state and set aside for some purpose, usually to do with recreation." so a town square probably qualifies as one. Also what is the definition of "the west." Missourians usually consider themselves Midwestern. Grey Wanderer | Talk 16:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Very Disappointing "Disambiguation"
I typed in "Esther Short" and I get her park instead. I go to the "Discussion" and find a pie-fight over how "first" it is.

http://www.co.clark.wa.us/aboutcc/proud_past/EstherShort.html

Almost nothing about a very fascinating woman in Western history. Doesn't even mention she was half Native American. (Algonquian.)

See "User Comment" by Terry Snyder at bottom here:

http://www.pps.org/great_public_spaces/one?public_place_id=639

Please be careful in your disambiguations. If I typed in Herbert Hoover I wouldn't likely be looking for Herbert Hoover Park.

It's not as if the information isn't available...

I suggest you all stop arguing over minutia and ask the Clark County, WA, Historical Society about the person behind the park. They even have a photo of her I believe.

And no, I won't write this one.

S.E. Hammond, Portland, OR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.241.183 (talk) 21:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)