Talk:Eston Kohver

"The protocol confirmed that the border was crossed from Russia to Estonia, and then back to Russia." Actually, the Russian version and Estonian version of the protocol are different. Only the Estonian version confirmes that the border was crossed from Russia to Estonia, and then back to Russia. --84.50.182.154 (talk) 20:40, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


 * How do you know? Do you understand those languages? I did read from the news, that both, Russian and Estonian guards confirmed that some people came from Russia to Estonia and then back to Russia. --Stryn (talk) 18:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I can read russian - there is nothing about crossing border in any direction. Russian text is saying: "There was a border breach". Funny, that in both versions grenade holes are on russian side. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.55.20.149 (talk) 10:35, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Also found an article about a FSB press conference in 2011. Mr. Kohver was named as curator of Pskov spies http://pln-pskov.ru/society/88983.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.187.39.26 (talk) 11:11, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Hardly surprising if the Russian and Estonian versions differ. Both deserve to be on this article, especially since the differing narratives probably explain Russian motives. 69.165.169.126 (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I've added an image of the Russian protocol, it clearly shows with an arrow where the border was crossed from the Russian side and back. --Nug (talk) 14:02, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Could you please explain how this arrow proofs direction of breach? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.187.39.26 (talk) 14:28, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * My Russian is not that good and the handwriting is very hard to read from that image, but I do not think that the Russian document says anything about footprints or even mentions the direction of the traffic. I agree with the previous writer, that you should elaborate where did you get the information for the caption?Susurri (talk) 18:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That looks like a double-ended arrow. It doesn't say anything about the direction of the border breach. 212.35.171.41 (talk) 19:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Translation of russian protocol: 30 meters near a border sign the breach of (illegible) border between Russia and Estonia occurred. In course of bilateral inspection, the estonian side notified (the russian side from context) about missing citizen of estonia republic. The breach of border fact are acknowledged by russian and estonian side. In course of the inspection video recording equipment was used: video camera Sony Handycam HDR-CX 730. Could you please translate estonian version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.187.39.26 (talk) 14:45, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Translation of the Estonian protocol: During the bilateral investigation it was established that a border breach occurred at the location of VPT 121 - 30 m (30 meters from the border post 121?) from the direction of the Russian Federation to the Estonia Republic and back to the Russian Federation. The Estonian side reports that during the course of this breach an Estonian citizen went missing. Both sides acknowledge the breach. A technical instrument was used during the inspection: a video camera Sony Handycam CX 730.Susurri (talk) 17:51, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The text of the russian version of the protocol:

АКТ

совместного осмотра района (места) пограничного инцидента

14.40 мск 05.09.2014 г.

п/з 121

С российской Стороны, помощник Пограничного Представителя РФ подполковник Зуев А.В., майор Тетерин О.В., эксперт капитан Лавров Н.М.

С эстонской стороны, помощник Пограничного Представителя ЭР pv-mjk Andres Kongo, pv-kol-ltn Tamar Tamm

По инициативе эстонской стороны провели совместный осмотр района (места) пограничного инцидента и составили схему:

(Scheme,

signature in the scheme: п/з 121

signature in the scheme: воронка диаметром 50 см

)

По результатам осмотра сделали вывод (позиция Сторон):

В районе пограничного знака левее 30 метров произошло нарушение режима границы с российской и эстонской Стороны. В ходе совместного осмотра поступило заявление эстонской Стороны о пропаже гражданина Эстонской Республики.

Факт нарушения Государственной границы признан российской и эстонской стороной.

В ходе осмотра инцидента было использовано средство видеофиксации: видеокамера SONY HANDYCAM HDR-CX 730

Акт составлен в 2х экземплярах, каждый на русском и эстонском языках. Оба текста идентичны и имеют одинаковую силу.

Signatures:

Зуев А.В.

A Kongo

212.35.171.41 (talk) 19:29, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Update. pv-kol-ltn (the rank of Tamar Tamm). Probably there is a typo in the protocol. The rank of Andres Kongo is pv-mjr (not pv-mjk).

212.35.171.41 (talk) 22:20, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Both the Russian and Estonian versions include a diagram of the double ended arrow showing the border incursion 30 metres from the border post into Estonian territory and back. The Russian version also approved the Estonian version is an authentic representation of their joint conclusions as identically valid: "Акт составлен в 2х экземплярах, каждый на русском и эстонском языках. Оба текста идентичны и имеют одинаковую силу." "Act drawn up in 2 copies, each in Russian and Estonian languages. Both texts are identical and equally authentic." --Nug (talk) 20:42, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Border guard officers are not linguists. If text is different it automatically makes both version null and void. Btw. http://oblsud.psk.sudrf.ru/modules.php?name=press_dep&op=1&did=219 according to the sentence, he was charged for illegally crossing border 5 times. 22 march, 3 may, 19 june, 26 july, 5 september 2014 year)
 * 19 августа 2015 года судебная коллегия по уголовным делам Псковского областного суда огласила вводную и резолютивную часть обвинительного приговора в отношении Кохвера Эстона, которым он осужден за совершение преступлений, предусмотренных ст. 276 УК РФ, ч. 1 ст. 226.1 УК РФ, ч. 1 ст. 222 УК РФ, ч. 1 ст. 322 УК РФ,  ч. 1 ст. 322 УК РФ,  ч. 1 ст. 322 УК РФ,  ч. 1 ст. 322 УК РФ, ч. 1 ст. 322 УК РФ к 15 годам лишения свободы в исправительной колонии строгого режима и штрафу в размере 100 000 рублей.
 * Эстон Кохвер признан виновным в совершении шпионажа, контрабанды огнестрельного оружия и боеприпасов, незаконном ношении огнестрельного оружия и боеприпасов, а также в совершении пяти преступлений по незаконному пересечению Государственной границы Российской Федерации (22 марта, 3 мая, 19 июня, 26 июля и 5 сентября 2014 года).
 * This is an agreement about border representatives and composition such documents like our protocol http://www.rosgranitsa.ru/ru/node/3208 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.55.25.119 (talk) 08:10, 21 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Border guard officers may not be linguists, but you not a lawyer and your claim "If text is different it automatically makes both version null and void" has no basis. Both versions have identical diagrams indicating the border crossing 30 metres from the border post, both refer to the use of a SONY HANDYCAM to fix the location and the Russian version certifies the authenticity of the Estonian version. It is irrelevant that the sentence claims the border was crossed five time, the trial was held in secret and Kohver was denied competent legal counsel. --Nug (talk) 08:45, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant to what? It's not a court, it's wikipedia article. It's a fact that he was charged for 5 times border crossing. Did he really make it? I don't know. I just see that this article was very one-side and factless, now it's more balanced. Kohver wasn't denied, he refused to use Estonia employed lawyers, most probably under pressure. Appointed counsel with check for 130 euro for this case maybe lied, saying that Estonia provided no documents to defend Kohver. Courts about espionage are mostly work behind closed doors. They are about national security after all. Yeah, it significantly restricts ability to defend in case of fabricated accusations, but it's the very common practise in any country. May be there are some exceptions, if you provide them, i will be very grateful, as I just like history of international relationships. Again for me it's typical spy case, not fabricated Savchenko-like case, but it's just my opinion, i'm not pushing it to the article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.55.25.119 (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

There is a version of the Russian protocol with a better resolution. Please replace it.

212.35.171.41 (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

The Russian and Estonian versions of the protocol aren't identical! PDF if the Estonian version is located here.

212.35.171.41 (talk) 22:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

http://rus.delfi.lv/news/daily/abroad/estoniya-obnarodovala-protokol-osmotra-mesta-pohischeniya-kohvera-video.d?id=44955846 Ok, finally found video.

The same video with estonian subtitles: http://tv.delfi.ee/eesti/vois-olla-siin-vois-olla-teisel-pool-vaata-kuidas-eesti-ja-vene-piirivalvurid-uurivad-eston-kohveri-roovimise-paika?id=69724775

212.35.171.41 (talk) 13:07, 21 August 2015 (UTC)