Talk:Eternal Sun/Archive 1

DYK Suggestions
Did you know:


 * DYK that hall of fame horse Eternal Sun's owner purchased him with an IOU written on the corner torn from the page of the seller's sale magazine?

Okay, WAF, I'm glad you like this DYK too. The article wasn't brimming with hook ideas from my perspective. But this one seemed pretty good! I shall fill out the DYK. This will be my third one to date. Well, there maybe could have been one or two others. Thanks. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:34, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Structure
Since you have done bulls but not horses til now, here are some tips on the structure of the article, based on the horse GAs and FAs. They're typically in chronological order, so in this case we'll put his race career before his Texas breeding career, then the sale to the Howards and the rest of his life. This might be one long section, more likely two sections, or possibly three depending on how much content there is once the writing starts. The race section might be fairly long, because we may have to give a short explanation of the difference between QH sprint racing and the longer Thoroughbred races most people think of when they hear horse racing. His headstone should be in there too, and we can quote the inscription. Then probably do a section on his offspring and what they accomplished, and at some point list his awards including the HOF inclusion. I didn't write anything yet, I figured you would want to start it, and then I can jump in. White Arabian Filly Neigh 18:00, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I didn't see this until just now. I had too many windows open I think. Anyway, where did you see his headstone? I couldn't find his death date. I was trying to follow the horse articles listed in the American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame, there are several GA and FA articles in there. There is some variation on how they are done based on different factors but they are all AQUA horses so it helped some. The bulls I try to do chronologically for the most part, but I think you are right, there are some things in the bull articles are not always chronological. I am adding the Facebook link to the horse which I forgot originally. I know we don't use that for source. But it can help guide us to find sources to support what it in there. Many of the details in the story on the Facebook page are already supported by the AQUA article on the horse. I will go in now and try to do some more writing. I can always do the pedigree any time, it's just copying text. I know his daughter Eternal Linda is in the hall of fame with him too and was bred by Howard and died on the farm. Well, this helps guide me some more. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:15, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I made a couple of minor edits. Yeah, the biggest part is chronological but in some cases you can go out of order a little, like discussion of the major offspring typically goes after the death section. Pedigrees almost always go on the bottom because it's nice to know what the grandparents and great-grandparents were, but most people want to read the text first. I might do a couple more minor edits, but it looks good! White Arabian Filly  Neigh 20:36, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking it over and making some edits. Your encouragement in the beginning and today made all the difference. I doubt I would have felt I could take the article on if you had not encouraged me and offered to oversee in the first place. After looking over your edits, I noticed some mistakes I had made and fixed them, as well as a couple of improvements I could make to two citations. I just did what montanabw always tells me to do when writing an article, copy style and content from existing good and featured articles of the same type of content - so I kept the American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame article open in a tab and used it to go to different horse articles in there.


 * I seem to write the most earlier in the day and then get tired in the late afternoon and evening. It's more taxing on me to write this article than the bull articles because it's harder. I know the bull subjects much better. With the horse, I have to work harder. But it's a good exercise for me. I have more content to add tomorrow. My style is to write more than I need and then to make it more concise. I also usually do at least some rewriting usually. Just so you know that's how I work. Sometimes I also have to do some rewriting because I've paraphrased things too closely to the source. I think I've done that a bit here, so will look at that tomorrow. I also use the Earwig tool at the end to make sure I caught everything.


 * You mentioned something about a headstone? And, also I can't find the horse's year of death. Did you happen upon it? If not, I have searched and given up. Do you know somewhere we might locate it? Also, do you think any of the photos would be fair use for the article? Just thinking out loud about that, not in a rush. Ok, I think that's all I wanted mention for now. If I think of anything else, I can always come back later. Thanks again! I am really surprised I got a lot of the horsey facts right. Oh yeah, I just remembered, that Pedigree table does not play nice in Visual Editor. It keeps losing data. I finally had to work in the Source Editor. And that probably explains why I got some data messed up in it. So, yeah, there's that. Okay then. :) dawnleelynn (talk) 03:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The headstone thing was that in one of the AQHA articles, they said Howard buried Eternal Sun with a headstone that said something like, "Here lies the horse that changed my life". I can add that in as a quote; I think it's worth including.  White Arabian Filly  Neigh 21:18, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Oh that! Yes, I wish we could see it. I was thinking of one that would have dates on it, which it probably does only we can't see them. Was hoping for a death date. Yes, I was definitely thinking to include that quote, go for it. I haven't gotten around to editing in this article today, I'm not sure if I will. Maybe later this afternoon. Thanks! :) dawnleelynn (talk) 21:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Hi, no big rush. I made three sets of edits yesterday and one set today. I think it's getting pretty close to done. It's ready for you to look at it again. I rearranged the sections a bit. I think it's a bit clearer now. But let me know what you think. And maybe not sure about some of the wording in the intro section. It seems awkward to me. And I added his AQHA registration number like I saw done in another AQHA horse article. Thanks! dawnleelynn (talk) 18:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I think you could safely go live now. It looks really good. I made a couple of minor edits and added another link or two, but I think you have all the bases covered.  White Arabian Filly  Neigh 21:26, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Good pick up on the duplicate age and some nice wiklinks. Right, going live doesn't mean I can't continue to fix any issues. So, if you are sure, let's go for it. montanabw usually moves an article for me and then patrols it to be on the safe side. Or, I can move it at a time when I know you'll be around to patrol it. Let me know which works for you. It's no rush. Thanks again for the reviews; it really helped! :) dawnleelynn (talk) 21:50, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm about to log off, but probably will be on sometime tomorrow afternoon and can patrol it if you move it then. Or Montanabw may get to it first.  White Arabian Filly  Neigh 21:54, 15 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Tomorrow afternoon is fine, no rush like I said. Maybe I'll copy edit it some more. I haven't asked montanabw about this one. This has been totally our project. Just ping me, I'll be around all afternoon. Thanks. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:21, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

After we finished talking, I recalled that it was time for me to get ready to leave for an outing. So, it was better you couldn't do it then anyway... I lose track of time when I'm editing sometimes. So, anyway, just move & patrol whenever, you don't need me to do that. After that, we can both add whatever categories we can think of. I know there are some AQHA categories in the articles I've been looking at. And I'm sure you probably know of some I don't. There won't be any need to add to a disambiguation page. You might also know of any list articles, that kind of stuff. I'll look at my new article list as well-I found it helpful awhile ago to make up a list of things to do when I add a new article to mainspace. Ok, looking forward to this weekend myself. :) dawnleelynn (talk) 03:43, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, I am on right now if you are. Either you can move it and I can patrol, or I can move so it won't need to be patrolled. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 20:14, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hey! Watching golf playoff, just checked my email. Since you are here and I am around. I'll just move it and you can patrol it. Thanks. I made one suggestion for a DYK in a new section below, see what you think and please feel free to suggest any others. :) dawnleelynn (talk) 20:49, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see a patrol notice, did somebody else patrol it? If it wasn't patrolled I would be seeing the notice. I like the dyk hook. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 20:45, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * This happened before. No one has touched the article but us. For miniature bull riding, I asked you to review the article and approve it but said you couldn't see a patrol notice. But a few weeks later, someone reviewed it. I don't understand why this is happening. It has happened at least three times. You patrolled List of ProRodeo Hall of Fame inductees for me in Userspace. It didn't look like it needed patrolled once moved into mainspace. And yet a couple months later someone reviewed it and approved it. It has also happened with an article that montanabw approved. Weird. Isn't there a list of of new pages needed approved we can check? Thanks! dawnleelynn (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

I went to this page called "New Pages Feed": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:NewPagesFeed and selected "unreviewed pages" cause it was only showing "reviewed". Reviewed was only listing Wyoming Pioneer Association. Three pages showed up as unreviewed: Red Wolf (bull), Bones (bull) and Eternal Sun. You can go to this page and select a filter to see unreviewed pages by a certain username (me) and then review them from there, at least it appears that's what you can do. I can't review pages so I can't actually do that. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

montanabw I pinged you because we can't figure out why the article does not say it needs reviewed when WAF looks at it, yet it shows up in the NPP. No one touched Eternal Sun besides her and I. And she hasn't touched it since I moved it to mainspace so how could not need reviewed/patrolled? The NPP should be right but why isn't there someplace in the article (and the other two) that say whether they are reviewed. Those two older articles I could swear were patrolled. It's a little mystery. Thanks. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:48, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Picture suggestion
Do a web search for 'Eternal Sun and Owner Harold Howard postcard' and you will find what is probably a copyright-free image. US copyright law is such that if there was no copyright notice (which there isn't on the front or back of this), and it was published during certain times, and copyright was not claimed after the fact, it's passed into public domain. Public domain explains the dates and details. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:08, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks


 * Montanabw is looking at this picture currently-see link. It has a fair use policy published there with the picture. My thinking is that Wikipedia will not meet it though but she's better at this than I am. I have found your picture and bookmarked it because it may very well come in handy. This linked one is at least useful for External links if nothing else, where I have it now. There are very few pictures when I have searched before.  dawnleelynn (talk) 23:19, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Aha, well if you do upload the fair use image from UNT make sure to upload it to ENWP under WP:NFCC not Commons. What you usually get pushback on for the fair use stuff is "somebody, somewhere could find a PD image" even if you have done the legwork and say that it ain't so. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Good advice that I will keep in mind! :) dawnleelynn (talk) 23:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm also making some inquiries at Commons' village pump if the postcard is usable. An admin there already told me it looks OK to him. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:55, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Why, that's so nice of you! That would be so great if I could add a picture (or even two) to this article. I have really become quite fond of this horse. Not because I wrote it with WAF's help. I just like the horse, I did when I first encountered him and it's why I queried WAF if she thought I could write it, it wasn't too big of a subject, but still notable. Anyway, thanks so much, look forward to anything else you find out. :)) dawnleelynn (talk) 23:59, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The cutoff for publication without a copyright notice is 1977. Judging by the clothing on the handler, the typeface on the postcard and the buckstitched show halter, we probably have an image taken before then.  But, without proof it was published prior to 1977, the horse DID live until 1985.  I think I'll upload it as fair use, just to be safe. I like the other body image too, I'll mull this a bit and upload something.  Montanabw (talk) 18:52, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Hey, here's the link for the fair use policy on the UNT digital library site that hosts the picture of the horse:. Just putting it out there, just so you know about, I don't if it means we can't use it though. dawnleelynn (talk) 19:31, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Also check out the two pictures on and one on

Small clips from magazine
In working with one source, a book from Western Horseman, "Legends Volume 8: Outstanding Quarter Horse Stallions and Mares" by Frank Holmes, there is a snippet used from a magazine. The magazine is the American Quarter Horse Journal May 1972 issue. The article in it is the "The Success of Harold Howard."

According to copyright law, if the quote is properly cited and does not violate the Fair Use rules, I can quote it here. Just like the book quoted it in its content. I'd like White Arabian Filly, who is my co-author, to be able to see the content.

First clip:

"We drove into the Phillips'." he said. "and I remember thinking that was probably the most fabulous place I had ever seen. The sale had already started when we got there, and as we walked into the tent, it seemed like almost every horse was bringing several thousand dollars. But I bought the last horse of the day, a mare by the name of Sally Barjo."

"The next day, I bought a daughter of Dividend called She's My Girl,, and the next one I bought was Eternal Sun."

"When they brought him into the ring, I sat there and watched the price go up, and I told my friend who was with me, 'Well there he goes.' But I did bid, like I said I was going to, thinking this would be the last time, but things slowed down and I big again, and I owned the horse."

"I wanted a daughter of his to bring home before I did, and my wife I might add, thought I had lost my mind. But about a week later, things got pretty much under control."

End of first clip.

Second clip:

"On Eternal One, it seemed like she was born to be a winner," Howard commented. "We showed her briefly as a weanling, and she showed lots of promise."

"As a 2-year-old, she picked up her halter points readily, and we also started riding her at 2. Her riding ability was outstanding, and I think she picked up her necessary pleasure points before she turned 3."

"Mari Kay used her at the Congress that year for her youth horse, but we thought she needed some more extensive training to be an all-around horse for youth, so we let Bill Horn take from the Congress. He was supposed to get her ready to go to Florida as Mari Kay's youth horse for 1972."

"Well, Bill only had her a short time," Howard continued, "when he called and said that she had to be the horse to go ahead with at the reining horse for that coming fall's National Reining Horse [Association] Futurity. We reluctantly agreed with Bill, and he began her reining training."

"Her first out in the reining was a big show in New York, where she won second. She went from there to the Michigan State Fair, which she won, and from there to the Michigan Futurity, where she won the reining and the 3-year-old Western pleasure."

---break---

After winning a big reining futurity in Sedalia, Missouri, Eternal One and Bill Horn headed for the All American Quarter Horse Congress in Columbus, Ohio. There, Howard's Eternal Sun's daughter was entered in both the National Reining Horse Association Futurity and the Congress reining futurity.

--- end break ---

"Bill advised me to finish paying the mare up in one or the other," Howard said, "but not both, because he said that no horse could do well in both. But I suggested since we had been making payments in both, let's just finish paying her up in both."

"Then she won both of them. We received telegrams and letters of congratulation from all over."

End of clip.

dawnleelynn(talk) 18:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The best of the "two-way threats" in the 1970's crop
Eternal Pete - see article

Eternal Snow, 1970 dun mare out of Miss Snow Bar, Superior in Western pleasure and AQHA Champion

Eternal Palomar, 1973 red dun stallion out of Lass' Dena, AQHA Champion and Superior in steer roping

Eternal Sally Jo Barjo, AQHA Champion with a Superior in halter, a youth AQHA Champion with Superior in youth halter competition and youth AQHA Champion.

Eternal Clyde, Superior in Western pleasure and AQHA Champion in youth division

Eternal Cookie open AQHA Champion and AQHA Champion in youth division

Eternal Needmore, 1975 sorrel gelding out of Mamie Jean. AQHA Champion and Superior halter horse with 170 halter points to his credit.

Also qualifying as AQHA Champions were Ol' Sol, Eternal Dutch, Eternal Moonbeam, and Fiddle's Special.

Earning their Superior event awards were Sun Tab, Western pleasure; Pines Eternal Lady, Western pleasure; and Daffodil Lil, halter

(from pages 98 and 99)

From page 101 another horse with his picture in the book. Captioned: Sun Bars Sugar, a 1977 red dunn mare by Eternal Sun Bars and out of Paleface Sug Bars, was a two-time world champion halter mare and a world champion producer.

From page 103 there is a horse photo captioned, "Son of Sun, a 1972 dun stallion by Eternal Sun Bars and out of Miss Rudy Beaver, was the AQHA 1976 World Championship Aged Halter Stallion.

The end of the 1970's — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dawnleelynn (talk • contribs) 19:31, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Eight more horses born at Phillips Ranch
Born on Phillips Ranch from 1965 to 1967. Need to determine if they belong in article.

Devon 1965 sorrel stallion out of Rosamunda Leo AQHA champion superior in halter 132 pts

Eternal Charm 1965 bay mare out of Poco Sukey Superior in youth reining and Western horsemanship

Sheree Sun 1965 sorrel mare out of Time Echols AQHA champion

Sun Lustre 1965 bay mare out of Deanna Bar AQHA champion

Big Sun 1966 bay stallion out of Brian's Lass, won several titles and awards 1970 High-Point Working Cow Horse and Junior Working Cow Horse, 1973 High-Point Tie-Down Roping Stallion, AQHA Champion, and Superior in halter competiton (This guy is given a picture in the book so maybe worth mentioning).

Eternal Tom 1966 gray gelding out of Miss Kitty Grey AQHA Champion

Eternal Too 1966 sorrel stallion out of Debonaire AQHA 1969 High-Point Halter Stallion, as well as High-Point Junior High-Point Halter Horse, and AQHA Champion with a Superior in halter and total 205 halter points (Another one that has his own picture in the book.)

Eternal Baby 1967 sorrel mare out of Betty San, became 1972 High-Point Jumping Mare and AQHA Champion. Earned Superior in hunter-under-saddle competiton.

High Tiara, 1967 dun mare out of Tiara Bar, awarded a Superior in halter.

Also mentioned later on another page, page 100, is Eternal Sun Bars with his picture, captioned, "Eternal Sun Bars, a 1966 red dun stallion by Eternal Sun and out of Benetta Bar, was both a winning show horse and a top sire,"

Now, on page 101, there is a paragraph devoted to Eternal Sun Bars and his son, Sun Bars Sugar, the 1979 World Champion 2-Year-Old Mare, as well as 1980 World Champion 3-Year-Old mare. "Sugar," in turn produced Impressible Sun Bar, the 1984 World Champion Yearling Stallion. Likewise, Matt Sun sired Son of Sun, the 1976 World Champion Aged Stallion and High-Point Stallion. (Matt Sun is referred to elsewhere in this talk page.)

Also mentioned on page 94 is a horse on page 94 with a picture and caption "Matt Sun, a 1963 dun stallion by Eternal Sun and out of Sun Arrow, was his sire's first performer to earn both an AQHA Championship and a Superior award in halter competition.

dawnleelynn(talk) 20:23, 25 March 2018 (UTC)