Talk:Ethical movement



Move discussion

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

move. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 09:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Ethical Society → Ethical Culture – Article discusses the "Ethical Culture" movement more than it does an individual chapter of the movement, i.e., an "Ethical Society". Move is currently obstructed by a redirect page.


 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~ 


 * Support I requested the change. Rhwentworth 02:42, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Convert Ethical Culture into main article. Defrosted 08:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Split Needed
This entry seems to speak of a larger general Ethical movement whereas the American Ethical Union seems to be a more specific organization that is separate and distinct from the overall movement. There are many academics and philosophers who identify with the Ethical movement but not with the American Ethical Union. I say kill the redirect and create a separate article. If Sunday Assembly gets an entry, then why not AEU? See the American Ethical Union website Samatva (talk) 16:58, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Religion?
I don't see WHY this is a religion, as understanded by everyone. They call it "religion", but I think we should say "so-called religion", because they don't have gods (as theistics do) nor other metaphysical realm (as nontheistic religions do). They are just Ethical atheists... --Damifb 23:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe that something less POV than "so-called" could be used. Perhaps something like "self-identified" that indicates that they identify themselves as a religion, but that others do not feel they are. Such a statement would also require some sort of citation. "So-called" also makes one ask the question "so called by whom?" Ben Hocking (talk 01:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At least six different dictionaries I checked all have non-God definitions of "religion." Buddhists don't generally identify a "god" yet is in every aspect they have a religion. The "Ethical movement" might not quite qualify as a religion, but the American Ethical Union organization is definitely a religion. Samatva (talk) 15:12, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Rudolf Steiner's skepticism
In his autobiography Steiner presents his evaluation of the idea behind the establishment of this movement. Perhaps something of this merits mentioning in the present article. __meco —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meco (talk • contribs) 08:53, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Two remarks
heading added later by another user because the topic is different from the previous section

Two points: 1) Ethical Culture has been legally tested as a religion several times and has consistently been found to qualify. To wit it is classified as a religion by the IRS. 2) Please add an external link to the Philadelphia Chapter/Congregation  http://www.phillyethics.org/ Hpeerpa1 (talk) 01:34, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Moved from entry.
I'm moving the history section here for future use, as I'm trying to rewrite the entry based on reliable sources:

HIstory
The New York society adopted as the condition of membership a positive desire to uphold by example and precept the highest ideals of living and to aid the weaker to attain those ideals. The aims of the society were stated as follows:
 * "To teach the supremacy of the moral ends above all human ends and interests;
 * "To teach that the moral law has an immediate authority not contingent on the truth of religious beliefs or of philosophical theories;
 * "To advance the science and art of right living."

Members of the society were free to follow and profess whatever system of religion they choose, the society confining its attention to the moral problems of life. Adler did himself have an ethical philosophy that deeply influenced how this was approached. A central precept was "Always act so as to elicit the best in others, and thereby in yourself."

In adhering to its social and moral imperatives, the Society quickly initiated two major projects in 1877. First was the establishment of the District Nursing Service, a precursor of the Visiting Nurse Service, which is still active today.

The second project was the founding of a free kindergarten for the children of working people, the first free kindergarten in America. In 1880 the Workingman's School was chartered, a model institution for general and technical education in which the use of the kindergarten method in the higher branches of study was a distinctive feature. Each of its teachers was a specialist as well as an enthusiast in his subject; the Socratic method was followed. Pupils over seven were instructed in the use of tools. In 1895, the School was reorganized, becoming The Ethical Culture Schools. An upper school, The Fieldston School, was added in 1928.

What began as a free school for the benefit of the poor has become, according to a 2007 Forbes article, one of the most expensive and exclusive preschools in the United States, with tuition currently at $30,440 USD per year. Despite sharing a building on Central Park West in New York City, the school is no longer affiliated with the Ethical Culture Society.

Under Dr. Adler's direction, the Society worked to improve conditions in tenement houses, created the Mothers' Society to Study Child Nature (later the Child Study Association), and helped to found the Visiting and Teaching Guild for Crippled Children in 1889. The Society was also instrumental in the formation of the National Child Labor Committee and in calling for the formation of the NAACP. The Chicago Society organized The Bureau of Justice, the organization that preceded the Legal Aid Society.

According to Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, the pro bono tradition among lawyers started with a speech by Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis at an Ethical Society in 1905.

According to a 1906 encyclopedia article, while originally agnostic in feeling, the Society gradually developed into a simple, human brotherhood, united by ethical purpose and a humanistic outlook, and to some degree acquired an influence in distinctively Christian circles in some parts of Europe. The only approach to a religious service was a Sunday address on topics of the day, preceded and followed by music. Its chief supporters in New York and Philadelphia were Jews, as was its founder and leader, though the society did not in any degree bear the stamp of Judaism.

A similar movement was started in Berlin. Today a society exists at Frankfurt am Main. Societies were established in Cambridge and London, United Kingdom but the only remaining society in that country is the South Place Ethical Society, based at Conway Hall, London.

Potential sources
Not to pre-judge the decision by the AfD closer, but it seems pretty likely that the current AfD will be keep, we probably need to find more sources for this article.

I've done a basic search of academic sources and there's plenty of places to source the article. Some of these are already mentioned in the refs or further reading section. But here is a listing of what I've been able to find. I may try and get in contact with the librarian of the South Place Ethical Society library to see if we can get more sources. In addition to finding sources to back up assertions in Ethical Culture movement, it might be an idea to find sources for other Ethical Culture and early humanist/freethought groups, basically the stuff in What Links Here, and people like Moncure D. Conway.

Anyway, here are the sources I've found on JSTOR and a few other places. Feel free to intersperse indented comments...


 * Felix Adler, "The Relation of Ethical Culture to Religion and Philosophy" in International Journal of Ethics, 1894. On JSTOR.
 * Possibly useful primary source.
 * Samuel Frederick Bacon, An Evaluation of the Philosophy and Pedagogy of Ethical Culture, Ph.D dissertation from 1933, Catholic University of America.
 * There's a review of it on JSTOR in The Journal of Philosophy (see ). The review is delightfully bitchy about it. Could be used as a secondary source to provide an example of criticism of Ethical Culture from a religious perspective.
 * This is also available from the BL (shelfmark: 8413.c.3.)
 * Friess, Horace L., Felix Adler and Ethical Culture, Memories and Studies, edited by Fannia Weingartner. New York: Columbia Univeristy Press, 1981.
 * Review on JSTOR.
 * Ethical Culture society newsletters available from the British Library (see WP:GLAM/BL):
 * Dublin Ethical Society, Ethical Echo vol 1 no. 2-4, 7-9; vol. 2 no 3, 7, 8 - Sept-Nov 1892; Feb-April, Oct 1983; Feb, March 1894. (BL shelfmark: Ac.9233.dv.)
 * Ethical Forum, American Ethical Union, no. 7. (BL shelfmark: P.523/64.)
 * New York Soc. for Ethical Culture, Ethical Pamphlets, no 3-6 [1904] (BL shelfmark: 8406.f.60.)
 * Other miscellany from the BL:
 * Stanton Coit, Ethical Culture as a Religion for the People. Two discourses, etc. (BL shelfmarks 4109.f.44.(21.), 4109.f.44.(22.))
 * This is a talk given at the South Place Religious Society which became the South Place Ethical Society.
 * Samuel Burns Weston - Ethical Culture... Four lectures, etc. (BL shelfmark: 8407.df.30.(2.)
 * A 70 page book published in 1885. Could be good primary/secondary source material for the history of ethical culture.
 * William Mackintire Salter - The Basis of the Ethical Movement. Opening lecture before the Society for Ethical Culture of Chicago, etc. (BL shelfmark: 8404.e.41.)
 * Benny Kraut, From reform Judaism to ethical culture: the religious evolution of Felix Adler [1979] ISBN 0878204040
 * BL shelfmarks: 5914.623500 v 5 DSC, X.520/24977
 * Horace James Bridges: Jew-baiting, an old evil newly camoflaged. (BL shelfmark: YA.1987.a.7161)
 * Not directly relevant to the article, but was "published by request of the Brooklyn Society for Ethical Culture". Presumably the author had some relationship with the society.
 * Paul Carus: The ethical problem: three lectures delivered at the invitation of the Board of Trustees before the Society for Ethical Culture of Chicago in June 1890. (BL shelfmark: YA.1993.a.7746)
 * Again, not directly relevant for the historical basis of E.C. but may be able to be used as a source for bits of the article.
 * West London Ethical Society - list of lectures from 1894 (BL shelfmarks: 1888.c.13(31), 1888.c.13(30))
 * Not directly relevant to the article, but probably short enough to easily push to Wikisource.
 * Henry Snell, The spiritual reconstruction of England (BL shelfmark: YD.2010.a.1028)
 * lecture given at NY ethical culture society. Doesn't look directly relevant, but at 16 pages, may be good for Wikisource.

Just for my own reference, the following citations/further reading listings in the article are also available from the BL:
 * Ericson, The Humanist Way, ISBN 0804421765, BL shelfmark: 88/18244 DSC
 * Radest, Toward common ground, BL shelfmark: AL69/5200 DSC, X.529/13762.

Some of the smaller works (lectures, leaflets etc.) could potentially be hosted on Wikisource.

I've got access to the British Library, and I travel to London frequently enough that if it might be useful, I can help retrieve stuff from the BL. WP:GLAM/BL is also going on and I can help find others to do research in the BL or in the SPES library. I'm not sure what the SPES library view will be on making copies for Wikisource.

In terms of photography of Ethical Culture related stuff, I've put some photos up on Commons, see commons:Category:Conway Hall. Next time I go to an event at Conway Hall, I can take photos inside. (I could swing in there tomorrow or next Sunday before the London Wikipedians meetup.) —Tom Morris (talk) 23:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Great stuff. The primary sources (those published by the ethical societies or authored by people like Adler, Coit, Salter, etc.) will be informative to anyone who reads them but should not be used to source the entry directly.  We'll have to use the secondary and tertiary sources for that.  BTW, a good deal of these turn of the century primary sources are available for free on Google books if anyone is interested.  Here is a list of sources I plan to get from my library tomorrow or the day after (you'll notice a few of the ones listed above):
 * From Reform Judaism to ethical culture : the religious evolution of Felix Adler by Benny Kraut
 * Felix Adler and ethical culture : memories and studies by Horace L. Friess
 * Toward Common Ground: The Story Of The Ethical Societies In The United States by Radest, Howard B
 * There are a couple of other books by Radest on the history of Humanism that I will look into as well.Griswaldo (talk) 00:40, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Misstatement of Kantianism
I take serious issue with this statement in the article:

"He was especially drawn to the Kantian ideas that one could not prove the existence or non-existence of deities or immortality and that morality could be established independently of theology."

Kant held that while the existence of God (not 'deities') and the reality of human immortality were not demonstrable by speculative reason, they were absolutely necessary postulates of practical reason. That is, Kant believed that one must posit the existence of God and human immortality in order to have a workable ethics. Maybe this is how Adler read Kant; I also don't know too much about academic Neo-Kantianism as was then dominant. But it is still, I think, rather inaccurate to present the independence of morality from theology as a generically 'Kantian' idea.CharlesMartel (talk) 19:53, 10 July 2013 (UTC)CharlesMartel

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Europe
The lead says "The Ethical movement is an outgrowth of secular moral traditions in the 19th century, principally in Europe and the United States." Although this sentence is only about the roots of the movement, when first reading I got the impression that the movement is or has been active in both areas, but only a location in Great Britain are mentioned, not in other parts of Europe. The old History section, above on this talk page, mentions also a group in Frankfurt. The recent, somehow related Sunday Assemblies seem to have had meetings in other European cities (Dublin, Amsterdam, Hamburg) and other continents. It would be nice if the article would elaborate a bit more about the 'ethical movement' in general, outside the AEU, since the latter has its own article. Bever (talk) 18:43, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Practical Aspect
When my soon-to-be wife and I needed to get married in a hurry in New York, prior to a contractual reason to get over to London due to an engagement there, it seemed that the Ethical Culture rules did not require 6 months' notice of intent to marry, unlike other (formal) church rules. It was thanks to this church for enabling. JohnClarknew (talk) 03:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)