Talk:Ethiopian Civil War/Archive 1

Dates chosen
Out of curiousity why were these particular dates chosen? Merhawie 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fall of Selassie to fall of WPE (basically Derg). Before 1974, there was not as much conflict, and most of it ended after the fall of Addis Abeba in 1991. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 03:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Page Purpose
Is there a purpose to this page? It seems to be a poor stub for the Eritrean War of Independence page...Seems to me they should be merged --Merhawie 22:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There were a number of participants in this war that had nothing to do with the Eritrean war (EPRP, MEISON, etc.). &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 23:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * None seem mentioned on the page, you might want to add to the page... --Merhawie 00:44, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there any particular criteria you are using? How does the ONLF, OLF and the ELF fit in?
 * The Red Terror combined with the Eritrean War of Independence, though I guess those three you mentioned should probably be included (though more minor, especially OLF, and later especially ELF). &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 01:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Should the EPLF and ELF be removed from this pages list of combatants as they never fought for political control of Ethiopia but rather independence of Eritrea? --Merhawie 23:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * They fought for political control, however, and were very important in the course of the civil war. The fact that they were fighting for the secession of Eritrea from Ethiopia doesn't mean that they weren't part of the civil war, though; the Tamil Tigers are a secessionist group in Sri Lanka, and it is their fight against the government that is termed the Sri Lankan civil war. Either way, why did you put a fact tag on the fact that Eritrea was an important center of resistance? It's pretty evident, I think, especially given that the EPLF succeeded. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 18:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I put the tag there because I am unsure about Tigray, but the military movement for Eritrean Independence began not in 1974 but 1961. Because of this fact, I am troubled by its title as a Civil War because if it was such the Eritrean portion of it cannot be labeled so because it started before Eritrea was annexed as a Province of Ethiopia. So, unless the dates are changed I dont think the Eritrean groups should be included. --Merhawie 18:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It was an important center of resistence during the civil war, though, which is what the sentence states. It doesn't say anything about when it became so or why. I think it's truthfulness is pretty evident so I am removing it; I am also adding Gonder, as this is where the Derg concentrated most of its Red Terror campaign against EPRP, and I think also EDU (not as sure about EDU). &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 04:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Combatants
How should it be set up to show the complexity of the war? It was all of these groups against the derg, but also EPRP vs. MEISON and MEISON & EPRP vs. the EDU, as well as the EPLF vs. ELF, etc. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 03:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggested sources

 * Paul B. Henze, Layers of Time, ch. 10: "The End of the Derg: The Victory of the Northern Guerrilla Movement"
 * Bahru Zewde, A History of Modern Ethiopia: 1855-1991 (second edition), ch. 6: "Revolution and its Sequel" (Note: this chapter was added to the new edition & does not appear in the first one). -- llywrch 05:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Eritrea
Again I must note, especially now as the causus belli has been given, that the Eritrean War of Independence cannot be labeled as part of the Ethiopian Civil War. Not only did it start before the ECW, but the causus belli took place almost a decade and a half later. It is misleading to add the Eritrean groups to it. --Merhawie 02:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please keep in mind that new comments go at the bottom of talkpages, not in the middle. Perspicacite 02:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * your thoughts are right but: see Second Sino-Japanese War. It began in 1937 but still it's regarded as part of WW2, no matter it went on after 1941 as a part. -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 15:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyway, this article needs more sources -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 15:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The Ethiopian civil conflicts were not in anyway related to the movement for Eritrean independence or vice-versa. Any alliances were for convenience's sake. The Eritrean conflict was a war against the injustices of the federation and then of its total dissolution. Further the Eritrean war of independence was not fought on an ethnic basis but a national one. --Merhawie 01:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I also heard the Tigrayans fought for independence also as did Ogadenians, and still their struggle is part of the civil war, I don't know what makes the Eritreans separated.. -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 20:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For one, note the causus belli. Secondly the tigrayans and ogadenis never enjoyed international recognition as an independent and autonomous state, while Eritrea did (Killion). Finally, some consider WW2 to have begun in 1935. --Merhawie 21:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

What about the Ethiopian Revolution?
From the authorities I've read (Bahru Zewde, the Ottaways, & even the comparatively conservative ex-diplomat Paul Henze), there was a period of revolution, starting in 1974 with a series of civilian strikes and military mutinies, which slowly led into the repressive rule of Mengistu, then not much later the organized resistence to him from the EDU & EPRP, as well as the TLPF. I don't know if there are any clear dates or events that can distinguish between the two periods: the first armed revolts against the new regime was in early September 1974 (maybe even before 12 Sept. when Haile Selassie was deposed) when Dejazmach Tsehayu Enqu-Selassie fought a pitched battle with security forces sent to arrest him. At the other end, I don't know if the Red Terror (& the White Terror) clearly marks the end of the revolutionary period or it should come with Mengistu's control of the Derg -- or with victory in Ogaden; one could make an argument for any of those. The internal factional violence certainly was underway by that time. At the same time, several Ethiopian intellectuals have compared the process of their national revolution into a repressive dictatorship to the French and Russian Revolutions, so perhaps examination of those two events might shed some light on the matter. -- llywrch 19:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The way I think of it, the revolution is the actual usurpation of power from Haile Selassie by the Derg (originally just the military I guess) during 1974 until Haile Selassie was deposed, while the Civil War includes the whole period from the revolution until 1991, including late 1974 and all events immediately after September 12th. I'm not familiar with Dejazmach Tsehayu Enqu-Selassie, but I'm not sure if we can consider his resistance as part of the civil war given that it was an isolated incident. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 00:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm interpreting "Civil War" literally: armed groups of people fighting each other. The first such instance was when the security forces attempted to arrest the Dejazmach -- oddly enough, almost all of the other nobles & aristocrats quite meekely & obediently surrendered to the junta when their arrest was announced. (According to the Ottaways, the only other exception they mention was Dejazmach Mengesha Seyoum -- who I believe was the decendent of the Emperor Yohannes IV -- who instead of surrendering himself fled into the hills of Tigray & set in motion the movement that became, in part, the Ethiopian Democratic Union.
 * As for "revolution", I'm interpreting that as the actions which changed Ethiopian society. The end of Emperor Haile Selassie's reign was one; the drastic land reform was another. Both of these occured in 1974. However, there appears to be a period between the last of these revolutionary acts & the growing resistence of the EDU, EPRP, & TPLF that eventually led to conflict between them (1976-1978) & the central government.
 * The model of the French Revolution -- which included a number of years of violent internal & external wars -- would suggest that the Ethiopian Revolution should be considered to run 1974-1991, with the Civil War as a sub-period. The model of the Russian Revolution -- which had a succession of several short revolutions, followed by several years of civil war -- would suggest that the Ethiopian Revolution occured in 1974, & was followed by a period of civil war that started at some point after the Revolution, & ended in 1991.
 * I'm just thinking out loud here, trying to figure out if I'm not understanding this period of recent history, or if these two periods did overlap. It doesn't help matters that the post-1991 period has not settled into a new equilibrium, similar to the 1950s or 1960s. -- llywrch 06:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I am enthusiastically in favour doing this the model of the French Revolution or the Mexican Revolution (as a series of conflicts and upheavals with a common arc). Such an article should be really in depth and include information all the rebellions and sub-conflicts (such as the Eritrean War of Independence, the Eritrean Civil Wars, the Ethio-Somali War, the 1982 Ethiopian–Somali Border War, the Red Terror, and of course, the Ethiopian Civil War), the role of the superpowers and other nations, the changes to Ethiopian society and politics, the backround and events leading up to the revolution, and the lasting impact on Ethiopia and Eritrea. Charles Essie (talk) 20:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

1987-1990?
Cuba was involved long before then, as early as the mid-1970s, when they helped defeat the Somalis during the Ogaden War. Josh (talk) 08:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

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Weapons
Where did the rebels get their weapons from because they could not have defeated the regime with out an external source of weapons?--J intela (talk) 16:48, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * They bought them on the black market, some were given weapons by the Eritrean People's Liberation Front, & towards the end they captured them from the Ethiopian government. -- llywrch (talk) 05:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Split tag
The split tag was placed by Janweh64. Since then it has had no attention. If the intention was that someone else comes along and creates an articl out of this mess then I don't think that is fair and is unlikely to happen. Instead the section will have to be improved first. If it was a way of asking permission to create a new article using this material then per WP:BOLD you are quite within your rights to do so. Either way, I think the tag should be removed since it is not really appropriate to this situation. Op47 (talk) 13:37, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Same tag appeared in Jan 2015; again split in 12 months so tag removed. There is also a broad concept article proposal at Ethiopian Revolution. Klbrain (talk) 10:00, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Cuban involvement
Cuba's involvement in the war from 1987 to 1991 is not sourced. I have read a lot about Cuban foreign operations, but never read anywhere about any involvement in this war. I also find the period rreally weird, as this was at a point when the Mengistu regime had started to distance itself from the USSR and instead, developed close ties with Israel, a country that is not exactly a friend of Cuba. This need to be sourced, and the article must give some information about what this alleged Cuban participation in the war included. Te og kaker (talk) 07:08, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm also reacting on the troop numbers section. These 17 000 troops participated in the Ogaden War against Somalia - NOT in the Ethiopian Civil War. --Te og kaker (talk) 07:10, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I have made some research into this question. The only source for this seems to be a NYT article from the 1970s which claim Cubans had 10 000 troops, helping the Ethiopians in Eritrea, but it provides no evidence and that claim is contradicted by most of what has been written about the war. The Fauriel/Loser book is also used as a source for Cuban troop numbers in the war, but the book doesn't say that they actually fought in the war - just that they were present. It says that Cuba still has some 5,000 troops in Ethiopia, but the perception remains that Cuban troops are needed to deter against a possible attack from Somalia, rather than the fact that Cuban forces are there to serve Soviets interests in the Horn (which is not the same as participating in the war - it cites speculations that Cuba helped suppress a rebellion in South Yemen as an example of what this might mean in practice). It says that Mengistu's regime is dependent on the presence of Cuban forces in Ethiopia, particularly because his war against rebels in the Tigray and Eritrea provinces shows no signs of ending. Yet, the book also said that Cuba refused to participate in the Eritrean War - Although Cuba could refuse to become in a large-scale military operation with the U.S.S.R. (as in Eritrea in 1978), it could not initiate a substantial military operation (as in Angola and Ethiopia) without Soviet approval. So this dependence on Cuban troops obviously did not mean that they participated militarily. As the Cubans did train Ethiopian troops in this period, adding Cuba in the "supported by" section might be acceptable (because the Cubans where indirectly supporting the Ethiopian war effort by training their troops), but I would like a discussion about this first. Cuba clearly did not send their troops to fight Mengistu's war directly. --Te og kaker (talk) 18:08, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Cuba was involved in counter-insurgency operations in the Ogaden for at least two years after the end of the Ogaden War, which is enough to make them an active combatant in this war, but I don't know troop numbers or anything about Cuban involement from 1987-91. Leviavery (talk) 18:12, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

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