Talk:Ethnic cleansing

Lead
Hi there regarding the recent edits, I would like to know why it is still taken out, because the revert note wasnt very enlightening.

Text in question: "It can include extermination, genocide, deportation, population transfer and internment, but also indirect methods aimed at forced migration [...]" Nsae Comp (talk) 15:56, 16 January 2024 (UTC)


 * As I said in my edit summary wp:lede should be a summary of the article content. As it stands the discussion in the article about genocide and ethnic cleansing is lacking substance. The article current calls ethnic cleansing a category, then calls that category a continuum or sprectrum, and then adds one of the most worthless quotes on the encyclopedia to support it, which could be edited down to reveal its true lack of substance: "At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration...while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide."
 * Yes, deportation and genocide, so we are crystal clear it is not the extermination and genocide your edit changed it to. Even if you add sources to the lede, the article needs to be improved before such a dramatic change can be made to the lede. Ben Azura (talk) 17:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I am sorry but that only explains the problem with how the body (does not) work with the leas, but still doesnt explain what the "dramatic change" is.
 * BUT reading the lead and body again I think you mean to say that genocide is a legal term and that it is not clear if ethnic cleansing falls under the convention. If this is the argument, then I am fine with leaving it be, because in that case genocide is accordingly covered in the last sentence of the lead. Nsae Comp (talk) 03:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think this is correct. Ben Azura (talk) 04:03, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks taking out extermination here is the necessary step to make this clearer and leave its inclusion to the mention of genocide. Nsae Comp (talk) 04:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In terms of the lead order, I think the causes should be placed earlier on and the legal classification at the end of the lead. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  04:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * In defense of my reorder: I have moved the legal issue up because it is quite crucial for the description/definition,as above discussion would suggest. Therefore I tried to integrate it in my last edits into the first para.
 * If the reasons or the history should follow in which order I see both ways equal. Nsae Comp (talk) 05:08, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The legal classification has nothing to do with the description of ethnic cleansing. Genocide is a legal classification and it encompasses multiple lines of attack against an ethnic group. We should be specific about which of these can also be a tactic of ethnic cleansing. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  05:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I am all for nuancing
 * /clarification. The int. law aspect as integrated now in the first para is about clarifying that there is disagreement and not clear def of the term, other than forced deportation. Nsae Comp (talk) 06:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * what do you think about my latest edit (see also the talk section below) (t &#183; c)  buidhe  06:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * History for me just comes always first as in often the articles are structured like that. Nsae Comp (talk) 05:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing and extermination
I think that removing it here is unwarranted; many sources include it as a way that ethnic cleansing is carried out, while others definitionally exclude it. Per NPOV both definitions must be mentioned. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  05:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * "ethnic cleansing comprises not only ethnic expulsions and extermination during war"
 * "The term “ethnic cleansing” refers to deportations or killings conducted by a state, or a non-state actor that controls territory, that victimize a substantial segment of an ethnic group on the state’s or non-state actor’s territory (for more detail on this definition, see Bulutgil 2016). According to this definition, “genocide” is a subcategory of ethnic cleansing in which the victimization primarily takes the form of killings rather than deportations."
 * "On the one hand, ethnic cleansing is defined as the "system- atic and violent removal of undesired ethnic groups from a given territory."31 This definition is used to distinguish ethnic cleansing-as a form of violence-from gen- ocide by its intent to merely remove a group from an area rather than to exterminate the group altogether.32 On the other hand, there is the definition of ethnic cleansing that incorporates the possibility of group extermination-that is, the systematic forced removal, by any means necessary including extermination, of ethnic, racial, and/or religious groups from a given area.33 This second definition, which is widely accepted in the general public sphere,34 leads people to assume the term is inter- changeable with the term genocide."


 * Well I agree completely, and that was also why the above previous issue was raised. But I agreed on taking it out because it is better dealt by the statement about the genocide convention. Moving up the genocide convention was then to facilitate a more nuanced and complete perspective on what and especially how extermination and genocide are considered as related to ethnic cleansing. So yes I am all for expanding on that and there (where ever it ends up in the lead, though further up would have helped this issue, but ok so be it)! So expand on it at the convention para. Nsae Comp (talk) 06:37, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Chill: sorry for my last edit I seem to have not seen the insertion of mass killing. Thanks! For me that seems sufficient. Nsae Comp (talk) 07:05, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the current version with Buidhe's changes including mass killing in the lede doesnt present major NPOV concerns. The term "extermination" is non-controversial genocide under the Genocide Convention and the euphemistic use of "ethnic cleansing" has fallen out of favor. I dont think we do NPOV any justice by presenting it uncritically as a synonym for genocide. Maybe we can expand on the article content for this about which  has already made some helpful edits. Ben Azura (talk) 07:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Can we add this image?




The description of the violent expulsion of Palestinians to make way for the new state of Israel in 1948 (the Nakba) as ethnic cleansing is widely accepted by most historians. May we please add one of these images to this article? It would serve a purpose not only in demonstrating ethnic cleansing, but also in describing the historiography, why it can be disputed by some historians outside the fringe, etc. 222.152.25.14 (talk) 21:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The Alhambra Decree was "an early example of ethnic cleansing"
The article says that the The Alhambra Decree was "an early example of ethnic cleansing."

While I personally believe it was ethnic cleansing, do we have reputable sources that state this? The fact that Jews were allowed to convert and stay also challenges traditional notions of "ethnic" cleansing, and suggests that religion was the core focal point.

To be clear, I am not defending what the Spanish did (it was despicable obviously), but it seems like this characterization might be original synthesis.

The following articles on the expulsion and pogroms of Jews from Spain do not even have the phrase "ethnic cleansing" even once:


 * Expulsion of Jews from Spain
 * Alhambra Decree
 * Massacre of 1391

Phantomette (chat) 19:51, 27 February 2024 (UTC)


 * (t &#183; c)  buidhe  20:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)