Talk:Eugene Falleni

Untitled
Have created this page in three stages and would appreciate any feedback as I am a very new editor. Tried to upload a photo jpeg but was unsuccessful. Is this not permitted until the page article has been reviewed? All help appreciated. Imago blue 05:24, 19 March 2010 (UTC) The production at the State University of New York is not the US Premiere. the production was also produced at the University of Wisconsin- Madison in 2001 and in San Francisco in 2002 at the Chameleon Theatre Company (Rhinoceros Theatre). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anita8119 (talk • contribs) 16:35, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Any sources for the remaining unsourced info?
I've sourced and expanded using the Australian Dictionary of Biography and online newspaper mentions. There are still many unsourced statements that need inline citations (as in page numbers from the book references given) if anyone has access to them. Also, keeping in mind Wikipedia's Neutral point of view policy WP:NPOV, some of the statements need direct sources to verify them or rewording to reflect what is verifiable. I've left them along with some statements that are arguably contradicting other sources (such as events leading to Falleni & Annie marrying) so there's some time for other editors to take a look at it. AnonNep (talk) 14:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Where is the evidence that Falleni was raped aboard ship? Why is she alluded to as he in conjunction with giving birth? VennerRoad (talk) 23:37, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The aboard ship section has been unsourced for a long while and could be removed. Someone identifying as a 'he' can give birth. The sourced gender-identifcation we have is (male) - 'Eugene Falleni' and 'Harry Crawford' - before and after. AnonNep (talk) 23:37, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Assigned Female
The use of this language is contentious. "assigned a gender" is social justice terminology that is neither subscribed to by qualified academics nor accepted in wider society. Vaginas and penises aren't doled out by the doctor, midwife, or sometimes parent delivering their child alone, but they are able to see what the child is based on these characteristics. It's highly disingenuous to modify a serious article in such a way with zeitgeist language. Twistedpiper (talk) 09:40, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm curious how you've determined which academics are "qualified" and what "wider society" consists of? The terminology of "assigned gender" began in academia (so it's common there), and has become much more widely used since then. As you say: it's become part of the zeitgeist, and if that isn't "wider society", what is? I'm sorry, but "I don't like it" isn't veto power. I didn't care for it at first, but I've gotten used to it, because I've seen how it solves problems about what we can confirm, and what we can't. Your joke about people handing out genitalia is cute, but that's actually part of the issue that this terminology addresses. We can't know what Falleni's genitalia looked like at birth, and sometimes it is unclear. What we do know is that the parents decided that the child would be given a girl's name, and raised as a girl... and that's what assigning a gender consists of. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:05, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I strongly support JasonAQuest's recent reverts. Their rationale above is entirely sensible. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:41, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * It appears that Twistedpiper only posted this as a manifesto, not for the sake of discussion. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:08, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * It makes a change from them cramming "indigenous British" into articles, a dog-whistle if I ever heard one. Pinkbeast (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, social justice is strong with Jason A. Quest and Pinkbeast, one presuming that humans are born bland and assigned genetic information by doctors in masks upon birth, and the other who thinks that being indigenous equates to some Nazi ideology of racial purity. I'd suspect both were born after 1990 and that neither has had an idea challenged in the real world. Ever.Twistedpiper (talk) 13:42, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And you would be profoundly mistaken about that as well. :) -Jason A. Quest (talk) 14:10, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * For both of us, leaving aside the straw man of "assigned genetic information by doctors in masks upon birth", which of course no-one has ever suggested is the case. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:06, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Guys, lets try to remain calm and civil. And also, this is what WP:MOS has to to say on pronouns.  Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification.'. So, the most recent gender that he/she(the subject of the artical)said they identified as, is what should be chosen. Lakeside Out!-LakesideMinersClick Here To Talk To Me! 13:59, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Excessive detail
The real problem with this article is that it's way too sensational, going into breathless detail, especially about the trial. While an article about a murder ought to explain the case, including the gist of the prosecution and defense arguments, it doesn't need to quote the newspapers and the trail transcript in such detail, especially not the exchanges about Felleni having a dildo (which was not involved in the murder). That's tabloid stuff. I've done some work on it, but it really needs a heavy edit to get it down to the encyclopedic facts. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 18:45, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Eugene?
Titling this article Eugene Falleni seems like the least good option and probably a violation of the article names policy. According to the article he used this name only for a brief period during his youth. Why not title it Eugenia Falleni, as per the titles used by the Australian Dictionary of Biography and the Falkiner biography? Or, if misgendering is considered to be an issue, why not use Harry Leo Crawford, a name that he actually used in public for many years. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:37, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The Australian DNB, interestingly, switches between "Eugenia Falleni" and "Harry Lee Crawford" depending on the stage of his life. I would support a move to Harry Lee Crawford, leaving behind a redirect and moving the one at Eugenia Falleni. However, it's a tricky one, since he can only have been known as Crawford for 22 years, spending the majority of his life as Eugenia Falleni (or some male name at sea which, as you point out, we have no cite for being "Eugene". Pinkbeast (talk) 07:31, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Articles from at least a couple contemporary newspapers refer to him as "Eugene Falleni", so that name ia at least adequately sourced. Whether it qualifies under WP:COMMONNAME seems doubtful, but I'm not sure what the correct answer is. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Referencing the NSW BDM records 1938 there are 2 entries for Falleni's death, one is 'Eugene Falleni' and the other is 'Jean Ford'. In New Zealand Falleni had 3 names, one from her marriage with an already married man 'Braseli Innocenti', as well as 'Lena Salette' and 'Pauline Home' after running away from home. As Wikipedia recommends official documents over tabloid press then the choice 'Eugene Falleni' may be the best choice. Leveni (talk) 02:30, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Gender
I have categorised Eugene as Category:19th-century Australian women and Category:20th-century Australian women. However, I'm not sure if I was right to do so now. Did they self-identify as female? - Chris.sherlock (talk) 21:31, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I read about 100 Newspaper articles from the time and only the following was ever mentioned about Falleni's sex.


 * According to The Daily Telegraph, 8 Jul 1920, Falleni's daughter always referred to her as "mother" even when she[Falleni] was dressed in male attire, but the daughter always sort to protect her mothers female identity, she knew that everybody else thought her mother was male. During the pre-trial, Falleni's lawyer referred to Falleni as "he," as did all the witnesses. The Daily Telegraph, 20 Aug 1920, Fallini's daughter stated that her mother had always dressed as a man for as long as she could remember. Falleni stated to the police (before the trial) that up until 1919 she was a "single man" (This had to do more with the fact that she had lied, because she had in fact already been married once before. Both times to women) but when the subject of prison came up, she asked if she could go to the women's prison, when told she couldn't, she then told the police "I'm a woman" and asked that her then wife not be told that she was a woman.


 * And that's it, all the newspaper's repeat the above. And all the books written on the subject of Falleni's sex, could have only ever relied on the above. Personally, I speculate between Falleni being a lesbian who only wanted to live with and marry women and realised she had to pretend to be a man in order to do so, and if she really thought herself male. Leveni (talk) 17:43, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Deletion of sourced material
User:Imago blue has been removing material from the article with edit summaries that make various assertions about what really happened or didn't. However, this material is cited from sources including: a book published by Simon & Schuster, The Guardian, New York Daily News, and The Daily Telegraph (Sydney), which are generally regarded as reliable sources. Now, if these sources are incorrect, we should do something about that, such as including information from sources that explain how and why. But taking material out just because you claim to know better... isn't how Wikipedia works. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 02:28, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 14 June 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 14:45, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Eugene Falleni → Jean Ford – MOS:GENDERID calls for using the subject's latest preferred name, rather than the name most common in the sources. gnu 57 13:45, 14 June 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose. If I understand correctly, according to the article, "Mrs. Jean Ford" was an alias assumed while trying to escape detection from the police, not necessarily a preferred name as a self-identity and also not the name best known to the public. That name is only mentioned once in the article. MOS:GENDERID is especially targeted for living people. For historical people it can be more difficult to assess the situation. The article says they were a trans man, whereas "Mrs. Jean Ford" was a female identity, which seems to make it especially questionable. The biography of this person seems a bit complicated, and their preferred identity may be unclear. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose, but also oppose the current page title which is a form that is seldomly used. The subject in question uses the COMMONNAME of Harry Leo Crawford or Eugenia Falleni, and identified as both male and female at various stages of their life.--Ortizesp (talk) 06:39, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Transgender man
What evidence is there that this person saw themselves as a man? Some women acted in the male role to ease a life, or to enter streams of careers unavailable to them as women BUT were still women

Acting as a man doesn't mean she saw herself AS a man. That's pure speculation.

Montalban (talk) 12:58, 7 August 2023 (UTC)