Talk:Europa (wargame)

Untitled
I created this article with content taken from Drang nach Osten, because I think the explanation of the political/historical concept and the description of this game should be kept separate. Whether or not this game is significant enough to have its own article is another question that I do not want to decide. I have never heard of this game nor of its authors, but others may have a different opinion, of course. --Thorsten1 11:52, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As to the question of "whether or not this game is significant enough to have its own article", Drang Nach Osten is significant for being the very first published "monster" war game, being published in September, 1973, a full six months before its more well-known competitor, SPI's War in the East. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.184.114 (talk) 06:22, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Total War
Does Total War count as a 3rd edition? It seems to use the same rules, only the OOB and map and counters change, reflecting recently released KGB files. Normally when speaking about Europa and "Total War", one thinks of the fabled rules set to cover the entire WWII scenario that combines all the modules into a single game played from 39-45, with rules for politics, economics, etc.. Total War just seems to be an update to an existing game series. Stbalbach 03:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Total War does indeed appear in Europa publications as the name of the next incarnation of Europa I, e.g. on page one of the "Scenario Rules" packet for Storm Over Scandinavia published in 1998, and it is also currently listed by that name at the HMS website. And since it is described there as having new maps and updated rules in addition to the updated order of battle, it sounds like it will qualify as a new edition, though we won't know for sure until when/if it actually comes out of the printing press.
 * As for other meanings of the name Total War, there have just been too many "official proposed projects" floating around for the past 20 years under continually changing names, and it may be that the same title was at some point attached to a different project. For example, IIRC "Clash of the Titans" was originally a fan's east-front scenario published in a magazine, but now appears to be on the roster as an "official proposed game" sandwiched between Total Victory and Total War. Also, "grand Europa" was originally slang for what we would play when everthing was finally published, but under GRD it became the "official proposed title" for a module that would provide the final integration. But from the HMS website and Europa magazine it looks like Total War, as the latest incarnation of Europa I, is real enough to be undergoing playtesting and be on offer for pre-orders. &mdash; B.Bryant 02:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks it's more clear now, nice work on the re-write; this is a confusing series background and the history is very helpful. Should we mention the hex scale also along with unit size and time? Stbalbach 03:42, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we should add that and maybe a few other things, though I'm not sure how much is appropriate for an encyclopedia article. &mdash; B.Bryant 03:50, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

DNO-specific stuff deleted from the article
This article had its origins when material about DNO was removed from the article about the historical Drang nach Osten, so the article contained some very specific material about DNO that IMO is not appropriate to the article that now covers the whole Europa series (e.g., number of counters). Also, I don't think all the facts are correct; someone seems to be confusing the "16 km" with the 16 miles actually used by the system. However, I'm preserving it here in case someone doesn't want to discard it and doesn't want to have to dig through the article history to find it. Some of this is still covered by the article; I just didn't want to cite incomplete sentences here. &mdash; B.Bryant 20:41, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

DNO consisted of a rulebook, five maps, a set of charts and between 1680 and 1792 counters (accounts vary) in five sheets. Due to printing problems sheet five was only included in the first 100 games; others had to wait for the last to be sent later along with errata. The game covered the period June 1941 to March 1942 in 19 half-monthly turns, at a scale of 16 km per hex. In September 1973, GDW released Unentschieden (german for Stalemate). The expansion, with 2182 counters and four more maps, covered the period April 1942 to February 1945, expanding the game to 52 half-monthly turns. In 1984, GDW released Fire in the East (FITE), a completely revised version of DNO designed by Paul R. Banner, Frank Chadwick, John Astell and Marc W. Miller. The game covers the same conflict during the same period as the first game, but introduced a new scale (25 km per hex). FITE included six maps and 2500 counters.

A definitive statement of the contents of the Europa Series (as from GDW) is available for reference here. http://www.wargameacademy.org/EEF/europaInfo.html

The original DNO had 1680 die cut counters (= seven 240-counter sheets). The half counter sheet was either 112 or 128 counters (it was a full sheet cut in half vertically; some people received 112 counters; others received 128). AmasaJoslin (talk) 02:41, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Some of the information above is incorrect:

DNO covers from the Second half of June 1941 through the First half of March, 1942 - 18 turns, not 19. The scale (the size of the hexes) on the map is 16 miles, not kilometers.

DNO was released in September, 1973, not UNT. UNT was released in 1975. Originally, UNT was only to expand the Great Patriotic War to the end of 1944, with the unpublished third module, Na Zapad (To the West) to cover 1945. The statement that UNT covers to February, 1945 may be inaccurate. Also, if UNT expands DNO to the period of the second half of June 1941 through the second half of December, 1944, that would be 85 total turns, not 52.

Fire in the East most definitely did NOT change the scale of DNO, it stayed at 16 miles per hex. FitE DID revamp the fairly terrain-free maps of DNO, and rework the counterset to reflect the latest (at the time) research.

Finally, Scorched Earth is the replacement for UNT, covering the same period, at the same scale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.184.114 (talk) 06:18, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Trademark
Onership of the trademark, if any, is disputed.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:52, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

How so? AmasaJoslin (talk) 02:36, 6 March 2010 (UTC)


 * One of the (multiple) problems is that trademarks can only be maintained through use of the trademark. If you cease to produce products (games, magazines), the trademark ceases to be valid. Updating a website every few years is not the same as being in business. The comment in 2009 may also have been a reference to the Cory Manka lawsuit against HMS which was since settled. Its unfortunate that the article doesn't mention any of the non-HMS-associated "after Europa" projects and efforts. 198.45.174.250 (talk) 17:07, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

original research?
Anyone care to explain what in the article is original research. I didn't see any. 12.12.144.130 (talk) 22:18, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

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