Talk:European Council/Archive 1

Talk:European summit

 * Copied from: Talk:European summit (now redirect)

I think this eventual merge isn't a very good idea: Just look at the "official" European_Council. Often not the date is of interest, but the most important topic(s). Adding these to the table would make it very bulky. But adding such information into European summit (as done already) is easy and convenient. Additionally a very important summit will expand by some lines and therefore looks more important. --Geof 10:59, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * the article European Council is quite long and contains mainly the organization principals,
 * whereas European summit has/ should have rather practical aims.
 * Since the comments by Geof one year ago, absolutely nothing about the content of any summit has been added to this article and no-one else has supported a non-merge. Now another user has requested a merge.  I strongly support that merge.--Rye1967 12:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Confused how all these bodies fit together
I'm confused how the various bodies fit together. Can we have an article or at least a diagram that shows how the European Council, Council of the EU, European Parliament, European Commission etc all fit together, with parallels to other systems like the UK or US. Would be really useful for someone who is starting off clueless. Thanks. 86.150.4.92 (talk) 17:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * See Institutions of the European Union.- J.Logan`t : 20:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

List of presidents
This is the complete list of presidents of the european council taken from the official website http://ue.eu.int/en/presid.htm, I think it is too big to be included, maybe a link is enough.


 * First half-year 1958 BELGIUM Mr Larock
 * Second half-year 1958 GERMANY Mr Balke
 * First half-year 1959 FRANCE Mr Couve de Murville
 * Second half-year 1959 ITALY Mr Pella
 * First half-year 1960 LUXEMBOURG Mr Schaus
 * Second half-year 1960 NETHERLANDS Mr Luns
 * First half-year 1961 BELGIUM Mr Spaak
 * Second half-year 1961 GERMANY Mr Schroeder
 * First half-year 1962 FRANCE Mr Couve de Murville
 * Second half-year 1962 ITALY Mr Colombo
 * First half-year 1963 LUXEMBOURG Mr Schaus
 * Second half-year 1963 NETHERLANDS Mr Luns
 * First half-year 1964 BELGIUM Mr Fayat
 * Second half-year 1964 GERMANY Mr Schroeder
 * First half-year 1965 FRANCE Mr Couve de Murville
 * Second half-year 1965 ITALY Mr Fanfani
 * First half-year 1966 LUXEMBOURG Mr Werner
 * Second half-year 1966 NETHERLANDS Mr Biesheuvel
 * First half-year 1967 BELGIUM Mr Van Elslande
 * Second half-year 1967 GERMANY Mr Brandt
 * First half-year 1968 FRANCE Mr Couve de Murville
 * Second half-year 1968 ITALY Mr Medici
 * First half-year 1969 LUXEMBOURG Mr Gregoire
 * Second half-year 1969 NETHERLANDS Mr Luns
 * First half-year 1970 BELGIUM Mr Harmel
 * Second half-year 1970 GERMANY Mr Scheel
 * First half-year 1971 FRANCE Mr Schuman
 * Second half-year 1971 ITALY Mr Moro
 * First half-year 1972 LUXEMBOURG Mr Thorn
 * Second half-year 1972 NETHERLANDS Mr Schmelzer
 * First half-year 1973 BELGIUM Mr Harmel
 * Second half-year 1973 DENMARK Mr Nørgaard
 * First half-year 1974 GERMANY Mr Scheel
 * Second half-year 1974 FRANCE Mr Sauvagnargues
 * First half-year 1975 IRELAND Mr Fitzgerald
 * Second half-year 1975 ITALY Mr Rumor
 * First half-year 1976 LUXEMBOURG Mr Thorn
 * Second half-year 1976 NETHERLANDS Mr Van der Stoel
 * First half-year 1977 UNITED KINGDOM Mr Crosland, then Mr Owen
 * Second half-year 1977 BELGIUM Mr Simonet
 * First half-year 1978 DENMARK Mr Andersen
 * Second half-year 1978 GERMANY Mr Genscher
 * First half-year 1979 FRANCE Mr François-Poncet
 * Second half-year 1979 IRELAND Mr Lynch
 * First half-year 1980 ITALY Mr Ruffini
 * Second half-year 1980 LUXEMBOURG Ms Flesh
 * First half-year 1981 NETHERLANDS Mr Van der Klaauw
 * Second half-year 1981 UNITED KINGDOM Mr Carrington
 * First half-year 1982 BELGIUM Mr Tindemans
 * Second half-year 1982 DENMARK Mr Ellemann-Jensen
 * First half-year 1983 GERMANY Mr Genscher
 * Second half-year 1983 GREECE Mr Varfis
 * First half-year 1984 FRANCE Mr Dumas
 * Second half-year 1984 IRELAND Mr Barry
 * First half-year 1985 ITALY Mr Andreotti
 * Second half-year 1985 LUXEMBOURG Mr Poos
 * First half-year 1986 NETHERLANDS Mr Van den Broek
 * Second half-year 1986 UNITED KINGDOM Mr Howe
 * First half-year 1987 BELGIUM Mr Tindemans
 * Second half-year 1987 DENMARK Mr Ellemann-Jensen
 * First half-year 1988 GERMANY Mr Genscher
 * Second half-year 1988 GREECE Mr Pangalos
 * First half-year 1989 SPAIN Mr Fernández Ordóñez
 * Second half-year 1989 FRANCE Mr Dumas
 * First half-year 1990 IRELAND Mr Collins
 * Second half-year 1990 ITALY Mr de Michelis
 * First half-year 1991 LUXEMBOURG Mr Poos
 * Second half-year 1991 NETHERLANDS Mr Van den Broek
 * First half-year 1992 PORTUGAL Mr de Deus Pinheiro
 * Second half-year 1992 UNITED KINGDOM Mr Hurd
 * First half-year 1993 DENMARK Mr Rasmussen
 * Second half-year 1993 BELGIUM Mr Claes
 * First half-year 1994 GREECE Mr Papoulias
 * Second half-year 1994 GERMANY Mr Kinkel
 * First half-year 1995 FRANCE Mr Juppé
 * Second half-year 1995 SPAIN Mr Solana
 * First half-year 1996 ITALY Mr Dini
 * Second half-year 1996 IRELAND Mr Spring
 * First half-year 1997 NETHERLANDS Mr Van Mierlo
 * Second half-year 1997 LUXEMBOURG Mr Poos
 * First half-year 1998 UNITED KINGDOM Mr Cook
 * Second half-year 1998 AUSTRIA Mr Schüssel
 * First half-year 1999 GERMANY Mr Fischer
 * Second half-year 1999 FINLAND Ms Halonen
 * First half-year 2000 PORTUGAL Mr Gama
 * Second half-year 2000 FRANCE Mr Védrine
 * First half-year 2001 SWEDEN Ms Lindh
 * Second half-year 2001 BELGIUM Mr Michel
 * First half-year 2002 SPAIN Mr Piqué i Camps
 * Second half-year 2002 DENMARK Mr Møller
 * First half-year 2003 GREECE Mr Papandreou
 * Second half-year 2003 ITALY Mr Frattini


 * These are foreign ministers of the member states (I think; at least I recognize some of the names). According to the article, the president of the council is the head of government of a member state (like Berlusconi in second half 2003). Do you know who is right? I presume the website of the council is accurate, but I'm not sure. Eugene van der Pijll 19:51, 30 Dec 2003 (UTC)

You are right, those are the presidents of the Council of the European Union:

"The European Council brings together the Heads of State or Government of the fifteen Member States of the European Union and the President of the European Commission. It should not be confused with the Council of Europe (which is an international organisation) or with the Council of the European Union." http://ue.eu.int/en/info/main.htm

This is the function of the Council of the European Union: http://ue.eu.int/en/info/main1.htm

The proper place for this list is Presidency of the Council of the European Union. A version has been posted there. -- Mic 11:28, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

The Dutch link points to the »Raad van de Europese Unie« (Council of the European Union), while it should in fact point to (as yet non-existant) »Europese Raad«. --Peterlin 14:31, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't think that it is correct to list individuals as "President". It's a country which is in charge of the presidency, not a head of government, a head of state or a cabinet minister. Such and such within the presidency country may chair such and such meeting, but nobody among the country can bear the official title of "President of the Council of Ministers". The people listed in the article were the chair of the Council of Ministers - General Affairs. In addition, giving the title of President to someone does not take into account every member state's peculiarity. Even if it is true that Prime Minister Tony Blair was in charge during last presidency, why would he bear the title of President rather than Foreign Secretary Jack Straw or even the Queen, who is the head of state... Anthonyfrederic 15:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

If a body comprises heads of government, it surely cannot include foreign ministers. pauldanon 20061010

So what is the difference between this and the Council of ministers?
I see there are two articles, this one and one entitled Council of the European Union. This article claims the two organisations are distinct, yet does not explain the difference. On the face of it, they are not distinct. Both are meetings of representatives of EU member states to discuss policy. More, I was trying to figure out a sensible explanation of EU government and I randomly arrived at one or other article. This is a mess. Unless someone can better explain the difference, these two look like they should be combined. Sandpiper 10:44, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * This is now clarified in both articles. – Kaihsu 15:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * A merger between the two articles would be scandalously wrong! The European Council used to be an informal meeting aimed at giving an impulse to the European Communities. There is no vote among the European Council. Decisions are passed by consensus. The Council of the European Union, however, is the same as the Council of Ministers. Head of states and head of governments never take part to the Council of Ministers. Most the decisions are taken by consensus but, sometimes, often when qualified majority is involved, a vote happen. The Council of Ministers is formed by ministers among member states' governments. The highest formation of this institution is the Council of Ministers General Affairs, which is composed by Foreign Ministers. So, don't merge them, it's different! I confess that it is a bit confused in the EU and EC treaties. It should become clearer with the Constitution though! *Hopefully* Anthonyfrederic 15:01, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway, it's all in the relevant articles now, sorry for being boring! Anthonyfrederic 15:09, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Did the EU treaties establish the European Council? If you go to http://europa.eu/index_en.htm and select the institutions tab, the European Council isn't listed. The CEU webpaages include documents issued by the CEU which report on decisions by the European Council. Might the European Council be a meeting of heads of government held by the CEU rather than an institution of the EU? pauldanon


 * The European Council isn't an institution. I can tell there's a bit of confusion here and it is generally hard to get your head around for anyone who isn't closely involved with the process or has studied it so I'll do my best to explain it. There are three "councils" which are generally confused. These are -

The Council of Ministers/The Council of the European Union (both names are valid)

This is one of the key institutions of the European Union that is involved in the decision making process, it's a delegation of ministers from the member states of the European Union. The EU institutions are the Council of Ministers, the Commission, the European Parliament and the European Court of Justice (the judcial branch). The decision making process depends on the policy area but to give a simple example you would have a policy proposed by the Commission. You would then (this depends on the policy - they have different procedures of "co-decision" and others which have different privileges for each institution but in the context of this issue that doesn't matter) have a vote in the Council of Ministers and a vote in the European Parliament on whether to adopt the policy and if both agree then the policy is adopted. This is the basic decision making procedure in the European Union.

If you want some completely incorrect, but nonetheless useful comparison you could think of it as having a role something like the U.S Senate in the decision making process in the U.S. It is in fact nothing like that and has numerous other responsibilities but I want to try and get the message across that this is one of the three key institutions in making decisions in the European Union (like the President, Senate and House of Representatives in the U.S).

The European Council

This is simply a summit where the heads of government of the European Union member states meet up to discuss various issues on the broad general goals of European integration and give guidance to the Council of Ministers on how they expect it to act. It meets four times a year and you can essentially conceive of it as something like the G8 summit for members of the European Union (again a completely incorrect comparison but hopefully that gives a better idea of what it actually is).

The Council of Europe

This has nothing to do with the European Union, it's a political organisation that existed before the European Union and its forerunners, it has 46 members (unlike the 25 - 27 come January - members of the European Union) and is along the lines of other political organisations such as the Non-Aligned Movement for instance which gathers together its various member states for a summit. It's essentially just an intergovernmental forum, treaties are proposed, members vote on them and then they're adopted. It doesn't involve any integration, it doesn't implement anything, it doesn't pass any legislation and it's just a forum for proposing treaties between governments.

Hopefully that goes some way to explaining this issue, obviously the European Council and the Council of the European Union (council of ministers) articles should not be merged as they are completely different things. The distinction between the two councils is very clear in the treaties and there is no actual muddling of the two in the European Union itself, the only problem which exists is for those who don't know how the European Union works and are suddenly confronted with two bodies that are both called Councils but which are in fact entirely different. I would perhaps advise that the introduction to the article which does now make the distinction between the three councils be altered slightly to make the distinction a little clearer or perhaps there could be a section of the article explaining the difference between the three councils as I attempted to do above because I think most people who had no prior exposure to the European Union and read that introduction would be left a little confused. blankfrackis 18:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Political leanings (parties)
Can we make a similar table for the leanings of the constituents of the current European Council as we do for each of the European Commissions? – Kaihsu 16:01, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I am going to try to do this at current composition of the European Council. – Kaihsu 23:00, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Merge
I believe this new article Current composition of the European Council should be merged here as a section. Joelito 23:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Merged. – Kaihsu 23:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Also is this list not found here already? So maybe just an interlink is needed. Joelito 00:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sigh. – Kaihsu 10:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Others?
This one for the European Union is done now:


 * Council: EPP 12, PES 8, ALDE 5, UEN 1
 * Commission: EPP 9, ALDE 8, PES 6, unknown 2
 * Parliament: EPP 264, PES 200, ALDE 90, Greens-EFA 42, GUE-NGL 41, IND/DEM 33, UEN 30, non-inscrits 32

I would like to do others such as the Organization of American States (which is recently turning red) and the African Union (with respect to their member states' heads of governments' political leanings). – Kaihsu 23:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Heads of states among the European Council
In the table listing the European Council's current composition, officials are listed as "Heads of Government". However, as President of the Republic, Jacques Chirac is France's head of state and not the head of government, a position held by the Prime minister. The list should therefore be named "Heads of state/government" Anthonyfrederic 15:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I just changed the column name to "Head of State and/or Government", the President of Cyprus being both head of state and government, according to that article. Anthonyfrederic 15:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Related European Think-Tanks
I’ve just read some of Filemon’s “contributions”: qualifies as an overtly rightwing Polish irredentist. Hence the distrust for perceived enemies of Greater Poland such as EU “bureaucrats” and Russian “Cossacks”... Frankly, I see no reason why we shouldn't mention this new European think-tank called T.E.C. which claims to be "independent and research-oriented", which removes all ambiguity and/or risk of it being confused with an official EU ministry or department. I think we should definitely keep this entry. DrVega2


 * Stop talking lies about my contributions
 * If you prove that The European Council (TEC) really exists, I'll bring this fragment back. In whole Web there is only one reference to this group – website that consists of one page. Existence of "TEC" is completely non-verifiable, there are no third-party sources that mention this organization. Nothing. Even if it isn't your hoax, it completely fails WP:ORG. --Filemon 23:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry Phil, I didn’t mean my comments to be an ad-hominem attack focusing on your character: I was just criticizing your umbrageous Polish nationalism and your tendency to overzealously purge new entries and/or legitimate amendments according to some rigorist “table of the WP law” you’ve invented inside your head!
 * Anyhow, I’ve reverted to the previous edition and added “recently founded” to better qualify the think-tank in question.
 * Hope the issue is settled for I don’t want to spend more time arguing with you. --DrVega2

You are still making personal attacks, there is still no source for this organization. Your entry is now commented out as per WP:V. I'm asking for the last time: are you able to provide any third-party source that confirm existence of this organization? --Filemon 11:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Armenia
Armenia is not listed in the European council in this wikipedia article although Armenia is a participant in the European council but no union.
 * Armenia is most certainly not a member of the European Council. You may, however, be thinking of the Council of Europe, which it is a member of. The Tom 00:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you sounds confusing though.

Rated

 * I would have nominated for Good Article (WP:GAC) if sources weren't lacking. Good article. → James Kidd ( contr / talk / email ) 12:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

European Summit
Why is there a seprate page for European Summit? They are the same thing. -161.76.97.74 16:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. I strongly support the merge.  I didn't know the other page existed, and if I did, I would have merged it.  Nothing of value has been added to the other page in the past year.--Rye1967 12:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree that they should merge. They are the same thing after all! - see The Council of the European Union: Voice of the Member States on http://europa.eu/abc/panorama/howorganised/index_en.htm#council

Good article nomination
I thought the lead section was a particularly good summary, but some of the main text was difficult to follow. Two long and confusing paragraphs need to be re-written:


 * The European Council isn't an official institution and is ill-defined in the treaties with no official power. However it is considered to be the motor of European integration. It meets primarily to define direction and the policy agenda, formally it " shall provide the Union with the necessary impetus for its development".[1][4] However national leaders are still powerful positions within the Union, particularly in areas where supranational power is weak (e.g. foreign policy and police & justice). The European Council also has a close relationship with the Council of the European Union, with the former possibly being described as an unofficial configuration of it. Hence, while official the Council of the European Union appoints the President of the European Commission, in practice it is appointed by European Council. Hence, with the great deal of power the European Council holds, over intergovernmental areas and over the control of supranational areas (appointing the Commission President), the body has been described by some as the Union's "supreme political authority".[6][2][5]


 * The proposed Reform Treaty, the details of which were agreed in June 2007, largely retains the reforms outlined in the rejected Constitutional Treaty.[11] The European Council for the first time becomes an institution in its own right. It would become officially distinct from the Council of the European Union, now the Council of Ministers but most notably, there is a separation of Presidencies. Where as the Council of Ministers would remain on the rotating presidency system, the European Council would have a fixed, single, "President of the European Council" (The President of Europe, as some have described it) for two and a half years (elected by the Council itself through QMV). The President wouldn't gain any new powers, being primarily an administrative position in organising the councils work, chairing meetings and raising its profile (including working with the CFSP). Although the President may also call extraordinary meetings beyond the four that are now formally required to take place.[12]

I've decided to put this article on hold as the article is close to GA status, however the issues noted above must be dealt with before GA status can be awarded. I hope that this can be addressed within the seven days allowed by on hold, and wish you all the best with your editing... -- Johnfos 03:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've done a rewrite of those paragraphs, how does that look? Need more work or is it okay? - J Logan t: 07:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, the article now meets all of the GA criteria! Johnfos 08:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! - J Logan t: 08:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

PM or President
Members during German Presidency, people might have changed but this indicates if it is the President or PM attending.- J Logan t: 18:34, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the photos on this page http://www.eu2008.si/en/Media_Service/Photo_Archive/March/0313EC.html the Bulgarian, the Czech and the Polish prime minister did participate in the European Council on 13 March 2008. --Glentamara (talk) 21:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed. It's always the factual head of government, not simply the president. — Nightstallion 23:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is, AFAIK, that Council shall be constituted on different levels of government system (head of state-head of government-cabinet members), but generally speaking, when term European council is used, it means assembly of factual heads of government - regardless president or PM. In case of Czech republic, factual head of government is PM, not president.

Therefore pictorials may fool some Wikipedia contributors of less wit as JLogan is, but general rule is as above. BTW his reference has real no value, beacause it's quite clearly entitled "Meeting of heads of state and government" not Meeting of European council members. - --195.113.8.7 (talk) 10:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the Romanian government, not the President but the Prime Minister participated in the European Council.. According to the Lithuanian government, also the Lithuanian Prime Minister visited the European Council. So, I think the original table in this article was correct. --Glentamara (talk) 16:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Glentamara, MPs have the "political power" meanwhile President except for Presidential republics, has no real power, in the case of Lithuania, it is a Parliamentary republic, then the MP must be there, - and PES political party.

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Colours
In the Council members table is missing Legend of colours (blue - right, red - left, yellow, green ???) or what does it mean? Thank you --Misbeliever (talk) 00:45, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I see it ... :)--Misbeliever (talk) 00:55, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Updates post-Lisbon
While some cursory attempts have been added to account for the changes now under way, the overall structure of the article is now out of date, refering as it does to the Treaty of Lisbon as "proposed" and spending a good bit of space on now moot speculation as to the selection of the first President. Simply atcking on his name isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid. In short, the material that is now part of the separate section on Lisbon really needs to be integrated throughout the article to reflect the structure going foward. I'll gladly help, but, as an American, my knowledge is more limited and removed from day-to-day EU life. oknazevad (talk) 22:14, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The Treaty of Lisbon takes effect as of 1 December 2009. At this date many things have to be changed, and I am sure that many editors have it on their lists. At the moment, there is no need to rush. Of course, the speculations about the new posts are out of date and the designated persons can be introduced to the articles. This is currently under way. However, the sheer amount of articles related makes it time consuming. You are very welcome to help. Tomea s y T C 23:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Use national job titles - the UK convention is not supreme.
Some editors (notably User:JLogan) want to give the UK convention (Prime Minister] in place of some leader's job titles (though not all - Merkel stays as Chancellor?). This is not appropriate.  Wikipedia is a world wide resource and the conventions of one country (UK) are not recognised everywhere.  Indeed, the words have different meanings: the Prime Ministers of France and Russia [well apart from now when it is Putin] have significantly less power than in the UK.  We should use the titles (or a direct translation of the titles, since this is English Wikipedia) that the countries themselves use. Pending further discussion, I have reverted the article back to the status quo ante JLogan's changes. --Red King (talk) 12:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * And by the way, if Taoiseach is to be translated, the correct translation is "Leader" (of the Government), not prime-minister. --Red King (talk) 12:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * HEY! I was trying to keep the national conventions in! I just swapped them round because other people had a problem with them so I was trying to compromise. Look at my edits, I am putting that data in there!- J.Logan`t : 21:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * And I would like to reiterate that the Italian convention is President of the Council of Ministers, why am I reverted on that one again?- J.Logan`t : 21:55, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * No, UK convention is not supreme. However, by COMMONNAME, we should used the most frequently used name. As this is the English Wikipedia, the most common name for most of them is PM. Their official titles are mentioned on the pages themselves, I see no reason for them to appear here to force reference notes to explain what we mean. Bar Merkel and perhaps Cowen, they should be known by their title in English--Prime Minister. Therequiembellishere (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Why Cowen? The line we draw is very POV. Might as well use their real titles (UK media is not the sole world authority). I'd personally support having UK titles in italics underneath, but considering most are PM then the note at the top is sufficient.- J.Logan`t : 11:41, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Because I haven't actually checked to see is Cowen is broadly referred to as PM in English. I know UK media is not the sole world authority but the vast majority of English media refers to Fischer, Rasmussen, Berlusconi, Tusk, Fico, Pahor and Zapatero as Prime Minister of... I'm not saying use British media, I'm saying look at media in the English language as a whole. This is the English Wikipedia and the most common title used in English for these seven men is Prime Minister. Not Minister of State, President of the Council of Ministers or President of the Government. Therequiembellishere (talk) 18:55, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The website uses that as it is the dubbed term used in the media. I am sympathetic though just can we discuss on the talk page first before changing the article - just for consistency. I'm not saying that to block you though, lets just agree the ground rules.
 * Now, before it was relegated into notes, we had both the official translation and the dubbed term. How do you feel about having;
 * President of the Government
 * Prime Minister[1]
 * ?- J.Logan`t : 20:09, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * (But I haven't changed it on the article.)? I just don't see a point in using the official transliterated title at all when native English speakers will broadly recognise Prime Minister only. Why can't we just leave it as PM here and leave the technicalities to the respective articles? Therequiembellishere (talk) 20:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh that was an IP. Well, that message is for them then.
 * I don't think the correct title is a technicality. It is also demonstrates contrast between the offices, the diversity in the countries and their political histories.- J.Logan`t : 20:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't we use the same names that are used on the english official websites of the governments? Thats means prime minister should be used for all countries except Germany, Austria, Ireland, Italy and Spain.--Glentamara (talk) 21:01, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with The... that the common English name is the primal term to use. However, I think that it is both informative and good for the stability of the article if add a transliteration of the proper title. I would do this by means of a footnote. Italics should not be used for the common English name (i.e., we should not write Prime Minister). If you want to add information in italics, it could be the proper title in its original language. This could also be part of the footnote. Tomea s y T C 21:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer keeping it in italics as a table is good for comparing data, you can't compare it if it is in a footnote. Footnotes should be for one off data, clarifications or sources, not something on this scale. I also think that simply taking the websites is still a very arbitrary line, some use the media term and some contradict it; it would be peculiar to have Italy as President of the Government but not Portugal. So how is;
 * Prime Minister
 * President of the Government[1]
 * But for this I'd also think Irish is worth including; the media also dub that to PM quite a bit.- J.Logan`t : 09:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

← The Taoiseach is the "Prime Minister" and the Irish constitution expressly describes the Taoiseach as such. But I think the real question is why have this column at all? Whether it's giving us a person's official title or showing whether the country has a parliamentary or presidential type system, it's not altogether that useful. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 17:32, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Who is this Politician? She was in the recent Council meeting but she's not on the list in here.
http://i.imgur.com/kQzYx.png --79.130.1.132 (talk) 11:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It is the Lithuanian president. --Glentamara (talk) 11:36, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Traian Basescu as independant AND EPP member + same list of Council member on several wiki pages
We had a discussion on the article Parties in the European Council that led us to consider that, although Traian Basescu is officially independent at national level, he is indeed member of the EPP (member of the EPP congress).

Here is an extract of this discussion: "My position is that Romanian President Traian Basescu may not be, factually, a member of the PD-L, even though he has always been before his election and was supported by the PD-L during the presidential campaign. I think all media consider Traian Basescu as affiliated to the PD-L even though he doesnn't have the membership card, and wikipedia should describe both the political reality illustrated by the media and the constitutional fiction (http://ciprian-luca.ro/?p=126) Reliable sources describing Basescu as member of the PDL: http://www.international.gc.ca/world/embassies/factsheets/Romania-FS-fr.pdf

Anyways, Basescu is a member of the EPP: Sources: http://www.epp.eu/council.asp?z=5D5B ; http://www.32462857769.net/EPP/Comtool6.0/e-PressRelease/PDF/Marseille051211.pdf "EPP's EU heads of state and government Nicolas SARKOZY (France), ... Traian BASESCU (Romania)"' ; Search for other EPP press releases with Traian Basescu here http://www.epp.eu/press.asp ; Contact EPP staff for confirmation that Basescu is a member of the EPP congress http://www.epp.eu/contactus.asp. ''Ignis Fatuus doesn't have the right to say that European parties do not have individual members without checking. It's false in the case of the EPP.Julien-223 (talk) 11:12, 10 February 2012 (UTC)''"

I propose the same edits on this page.

Moreover, I think the list of European Council member (table) should be turned into a template that would be common for both pages.

I initiate this change, please don't hesitate to contribute.Julien-223 (talk) 09:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * From what I can gather Romania is a semi-presidential republic like France and elections to the presidency are run on party political lines with candidates running on party-tickets. However unlike the President of France, the President of France is meant to be independent and not a member of a political party. I don't think it's really tenable to list Presidents of Romania as independents (unless they actually are). I think the sensible thing to do is to list the president under the political party he or she ran under and add a footnote indicating that "whilst formally independent, Mr. X ran under a banner of Y party during the preceding election." — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 17:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Blue-Haired Lawyer: I agree with you, but many users are challenging this point of view (Basescu as PD-L member), and in fact, it is difficult to contradict them by referring to relevant sources showing Basescu as member of the PD-L after his election. Legally, factually, Basescu is not a PD-L member although he is from a political point of view. Therefore I would like to keep the current consensus: Basescu as independent and EPP member. I fear coming back to the question of his PD-L affiliation might reopen the whole debate, and as far as I'm concerned, I spent already enough time edit warring and requesting protection on that :)Julien-223 (talk) 08:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Merge with Parties in the European Council
I propose that Parties in the European Council be merged into European Council. With the exception of the lead all of the content of the former is now reproduced via templates in the latter. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 17:17, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you.Julien-223 (talk) 08:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Titles of the members of the European Council
The claim that "Prime Minister" is a term used for some members of the European Council only by English-speaking media is not correct. Many of the official titles for these members are actually "Prime Minister" in English and not the direct-translated versions like "Minister of State" as the Wikipedia article states now. "Prime Minister" is used in official documents like the Treaty of Accession of Croatia as well as documents like this. Wikipedia should not set any new standards. If no one oppose it, then I will change the article. --Glentamara (talk) 18:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the obvious thing to do is to remove the titles completely. I imagine the original idea was to show which countries followed the parliamentary system and which followed the semi-presidental system but at the moment it doesn't tell us anything particularly informative. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 21:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The titles that ought to be used in this article, from non-English speaking countries, are those used in the English versions of the EU treaties and/or officially sanctioned English language translations of the constitution, or other sufficiently official papers in English from the states concerned. RicJac (talk) 08:01, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Enrico Letta isn't exactly "independent"
Letta is a member of the PD, which (although it isn't a member of PES) does currently sit within the S&D group in the European Parliament. The PD has strong links with PES and is clearly a party of the centre-left. I think that this should be shown somehow in the members section and the section showing the political makeup of the European Council, not only to show that Letta is centre-left and currently linked to the S&D, but also to distinguish this situation from the truly independent members of the institution. I'm open to suggestions on how this should be done. 86.43.72.9 (talk) 04:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Replying to myself here, but just to clear it up; this is no longer an issue, as Partito Democratico has become a full member party of the Party of European Socialists.86.43.72.9 (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Alenka Bratusek
Alenka Bratusek participated in the pre-summit of ALDE this week. Maybe her "independent" party affiliation should be reconsidered? Soruce --Glentamara (talk) 21:20, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Titles
When did we become so excessively PC that it was decided to override WP:COMMONNAME and directly translate every title? Are we going to start doing this with locations next and call Germany "German Land" next? It's ridiculous and confusing; the direct translation belongs somewhere in the lede of the specific articles themselves as a piece of trivia and not the new Wiki-only norm for how these offices are referred to. It's clear the EU does not currently use such absurd titles nor did it before. As this issue has spread across in project onto other list pages devoted to cataloging world leaders (such as List of current heads of state and government and List of current state leaders by date of assumption of office), it would appear to me that an editor, or a group of editors, is behind this new change. This started some time ago but as it doesn't seem to be flaming out, I wondered if others had perspective on this. Therequiembellishere (talk) 15:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Europarties in European Council and EU Council
Take a look and maybe help: The dominant Europarty is the one holding the member state’s seat in the European Council.

Additional Europarties are the ones which also sit in (some configurations of) the Council of the European Union. – Kaihsu (talk) 18:59, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Romania
Is the representative of Romania in the European Council the President or the PM? If it's the PM, he's an independent. Salmunete (talk) 04:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's the president. --Glentamara (talk) 07:01, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
 * But the President Klaus Iohannis has also been an independent since 2014, and although he's shown as a member of the EPP in the EPP's website, he's shown there in the quality of member of the PNL, and he's no longer a member of that party. Salmunete (talk) 16:44, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * He's participating in the party meetings that EPP hold before the meetings of the European Council, so he is definitely an independent only on the paper. --Glentamara (talk) 17:09, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * In order to clarify the situation, are there other sources so some conclusion can be reached? Thanks for your attention! Salmunete (talk) 17:29, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * EPP lists him on their official website as one of their members of the European Council. That is enough. --Glentamara (talk) 17:49, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Right, if that's enough, then I'll make a small correction in the article that had been changed by myself under the presumption that Romania was represented by an independent. Salmunete (talk) 19:53, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Lots of confusion between Councils
The logo in the box at the upper right was that of the Council of the European Union. I removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:6A90:3000:BC2F:C827:A1DB:A519 (talk) 14:38, 25 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I believe the two have the same logo. See http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/

--Boson (talk) 00:08, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Powers of the European Council (recent edit)
"... which has no formal powers"?


 * The powers of the European Council are defined in Article 15 TEU, Article 26 (1) TEU, Article 49 TEU, Article 50 TEU, mainly: defining the general political directions and priorities of the European union.

--Boson (talk) 00:08, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's an important point. Is there a way to help the introduction clearly distinguish this (rather nebulous) power from the more substantive power of the Council of the EU? As it stands, casual readers are easily confused. (As a suggestion, I've inserted "charged with defining the EU's overall political direction and priorities", which is the language used here: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/ )31.114.109.52 (talk) 09:18, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that's sufficient for the introduction. The less nebulous powers and functions are described in the appropriate section. --Boson (talk) 10:47, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The European Council has formal powers (such as appointing the Commission after they have been elected by the European Parliament as well as appointing the members of the ECB excutive board), but no legislative powers. --Glentamara (talk) 14:11, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

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France
Since Macron and his party are now part of ALDE (now called Renew Europe), shouldn't France be coloured in yellow instead of independent on the map, and be counted to the liberal members? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C6:370F:3823:B49D:54CE:81A:EAC8 (talk) 22:09, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


 * No, because Macron and his party are not part of ALDE. ALDE is still a European political party, which is separate from Renew Europe as a European Parliamentary group. It's like how the Greens/European Free Alliance group in the Parliament has parties belonging to the European Greens and the European Free Alliance, both separate parties, in it. Renew Europe only exists within the EP as a parliamentary group, therefore Macron and his party are not members of ALDE. That can be seen here. Mustwinfull (talk) 20:00, 18 July 2019 (UTC)


 * What about those strip pattern maps or whatever they should be called, so the France would be colored in grey as officially independent BUT ALSO in gold as signal that Macron is always voting with liberals? If someone knows how to do it. Situation of Macron is obviously different from those of other independent members of the EUCO.Sredina (talk) 10:41, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Table
The old table gave a much better overview of the members of the European Council. The current one is less readable and contains too much graphics to be Wikipedia. I would suggest that we are going back to the old sortable Wikipedia table. --Glentamara (talk) 15:57, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Macron's affiliation
Macron should stay 'Grey' as the explanation for being part of ALDE Party is wrong: "Macron also attended Renew Europe's Pre-Summit in October 2019". Renew Europe's Pre-Summit gathered politicians from 2 European Political parties: ALDE party and EDP. molui (talk) 15:51, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Matovic's affiliation
Is Matovic independent or does he count as EPP because OL'aNO is EPP? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grizzliesrule888 (talk • contribs) 16:33, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * OL'aNO is not EPP according to the website of EPP. Their MEPs sit in the EPP group though, but that's something else. --Glentamara (talk) 16:34, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I would do the same as for Macron, half independent and half EPP. I have it prepared to change it. Sredina (talk) 16:43, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Macron does not belong to ALDE. I think we should be very formal with the party affiliations. If a person/party is not officially affiliated, we should not write that they are affiliated. There is a tendency here to over-affiliate people which I find very worrying from an encyclopedic perspective since it is not based on fact. --Glentamara (talk) 17:06, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Members: map caption
The caption on this map has made-up three-letter codes for some the member states. They need to be changed to use ISO 3166-1 alpha-3. --Red King (talk) 16:12, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Macron's & Matovic's affiliation
Glentamara is right. Macron does not belong to ALDE. Besides, the explanation given on the page for a potential affiliation is wrong as Renew group at the European Parliament is composed by 2 European political parties and 2 national electoral coalition/alliance. So how can someone just pick 1 European political party and not the other one?

EP groups and EU political parties are 2 different organisations. molui (talk) 15:02, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * molui no need to explain to me what a political party and a parliamentary group is. Macron is still primarly considered as an independent politician, in the tables he is counted primarly as an independent (as an ALDE member he is only counted in parentheses, which is also clearly marked and explained). But it is clear to all, and especially to those who regularly follow the work of the European Council that Macron favors a liberal group of members of the EUCO, that is, ALDE members, and not PES/S&D, EPP or ECR. It says nowhere that Macron or his party are ALDE members. It's actually not much different with Iohannis (ROM), he is offically independent, he is not member of any party, but is considered as member of EPP (yes I know it says so on their website, but he is still not member of either any national party or EPP). So it is accurate to affiliate Macron with ALDE (or change in general ALDE to Renew Europe -RE) in the same way as it is to affiliate Iohannis to EPP. And in my opninon it should be done the same with Matović (EPP).Sredina (talk) 15:21, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Please provide a reliable source stating that Macron is affiliated with ALDE. Until then your claims are irrelevant. The difference to Klaus is, exactly as you mention, that he is actually listed as an EPP head of state on the official website of EPP. So yes, Klaus is officially affiliated with EPP, while Macron is not affiliated with ALDE. --Glentamara (talk) 16:15, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

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Using EP groupings for the European Council?
Currently, this page uses a mix of European political parties (e.g. PES) and European Parliamentary groups (Renew Europe) to describe and 'factually' document political allegiances in the European Council.

Does it make sense to use EP groupings (Renew Europe) which only formally exist in the EP to group leaders of the European Council together? It feels like a way to associate Macron with the liberals even if he and En Marche are formally independent and not associated with ALDE. I don't really see using EP groupings, only existing in the EP, as making much sense.

If this is done, why are we not using other distinctions or other informal coalitons like the V4 to group these leaders instead? Can someone point out to me the justification for using EP groupings in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mustwinfull (talk • contribs) 19:56, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

This was done because pre-summits meetings before EUCO are no longer hosted by ALDE but by the Renew Europe. Also Macron is affiliated with Renew Europe and not with Alde, and just saying that he is independent is more misleading than saying he is a member of the Renew Europe coalition. Sredina (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Lithuanian head of government not mentioned
The Lithuanian president is the head of state, not the head of government. It should be the Prime Minister who is mentioned, currently it is the President. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.167.228.170 (talk) 21:33, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Lithuanian President is attending EUCO meetings, not the Prime Minister. Lithuania has a semi-presidential system and clearly President is the one that has competences to internationally represent Lithuania, since it has always been so.Sredina (talk) 08:08, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

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Voting Rules in the Council
Surprised that there is nothing really on decision making procedure... For example, as seen from other sites, qualified majority etc voting may be same as with Council of Ministers (Council of the European Union), but should surely be stated as being such, or otherwise, here? (Yes, even if consensus in "conclusions" is the usual way!)

Oddly, at time of writing before letting them know about it, the EU's own Consilium site does not inform on this either (only does so for the Council of Ministers). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:B340:80:2713:DDAC:1587:48D1:BC10 (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

European party affiliation of members of the Council
Hi all,

Currently, the "members" section provides pictures of all members of the European Council with information, including their national party and European Parliament political group affiliations. These are useful and needed information. However, it does not include the European party affiliation, which is relevant in its own right, especially since European parties are getting are increasingly big role in coordinating positions on the European Council (see research by the European Parliament Research Service ). I would therefore like to add this information in the table but, before I do so, wanted to get some feedback from the community.

Thanks! Julius Schwarz (talk) 06:56, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, there is a tendency here on Wikipedia to use the political groups of the European Parliament instead of European political parties for labelling members of the European Council and the European Commission. This despite the fact that the political groups formally speaking only exist within the organization of the European Parliament. --Nablicus (talk) 07:10, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi @Nablicus, you are right and I do think this is unfortunate, given the extra-parliamentary role of parties and intra-parliamentary role of poitical groups. But, admittedly, it is not just on Wikipedia -- as most media do the same -- and, since parliamentary groups currently have more visibility than European parties, there is value in displaying the political group affiliation of national leaders. This being said, I don't think it's either/or, and I think European party affiliation can be added alongside the information already present. Would you support that? Julius Schwarz (talk) 07:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I totally support that. --Nablicus (talk) 07:37, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I hope we can gather more supportive feedback. The same reasoning would actually apply to the college of commissioners, as you point out. Julius Schwarz (talk) 07:39, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Positions in the European Council are actually more often coordinated among members of the same political group than the same European party. That’s partly because almost all members that belong to the same group also belong to the same party. Every member of S&D, for example, also belongs to PES. The only exceptions are Macron and Golob, whose parties belong to Renew, but not ALDE. And since Renew was formed in 2019, it has progressively taken over ALDE’s role in the European Council. As we discussed here, liberal leaders usually meet as Renew before Council summits, not as ALDE. It’s been years since members from ALDE last met before a summit without Macron.
 * So no, the role of political groups isn’t intra-parliamentary, and no, it’s not unfortunate that we use them to label members of the European Council. We do that because that’s how they organize themselves. That’s why we have an official EU source labelling them like that as well. I’m not saying European parties are irrelevant, but as far as discussions in the Council are concerned, they are not really important either.
 * So I think writing below every member in the table things like (EPP – EPP – PO) or (Renew – Una. – RE), would only bloat the table and confuse readers for no reason. I also think the chart breaking down the number of members by European party isn’t really necessary, but I’m not as opposed to it either. Brainiac242 (talk) 00:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not a very strong argument, though. Basically, it's pretty only Renew that switched to having meetings led by the political group instead of the European party and, indeed, the drive behind this is Macron's party not joining ALDE. But for the EPP and PES, even if the members are the same, the gatherings are still led by the European parties. And that goes not just for the European Council, but also for gathering of Ministers. The groups do remain, by and large, intra-parliamentary and Renew is more the exception than the rule. And the reason there is an official EU source for the list of EUCO members by political group and not by European party is simply that the APPF does not have that in its mandate and only publishes the strict minimum that its mandate requires -- it is not some kind of acknowledgement by the administrative services of the European Parliament that the political group have an overriding role in EUCO proceedings.
 * As for the table, it is admittedly a full table, but I really do not see how adding three letters in one line would automatically make it bloated and bring confusion. That's of course a personal opinion, but this hardly changes anything to the table itself. Julius Schwarz (talk) 06:30, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Formally speaking, the groups are, by construction, entities within the parliament. They have MEPs as members, not political parties. The criteria for creating (and dissolving) a group are laid down by the rules of procedure of the European Parliament, see, e.g., Rule 33 of the rules of procedure. A member of the European Council or the European Commission can never become a member of a political group of the European Parliament, only MEPs can. It's pretty clear. Then of course, indeed, there are (informal) meetings between members of the European Council in configurations that reflect the political groups. But that does NOT mean that the members of the European Council themselves belong to political groups of the European Parliament. --Nablicus (talk) 06:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)