Talk:European Graduate School/Archive 2

Protected edit request on 16 December 2015
Hi,

I noticed this comment in the Talk section, "In reviewing the comments above, it appears that this is not the first time that information about the EGS's lack of U.S. accreditation has been stripped from this article." What is strange about this comment is that the EGS, as I understand it, has never had or claimed to have U.S. accreditation. The school is European. If the Wikipedia standard is that all non-U.S. schools have to be U.S. accredited there needs to be a wholesale update to every European school on the site stating that they do not have U.S. accreditation. That seems unproductive and rather inaccurate. It may be prudent to simply rename and reframe the "Accreditation in the United States" section of the EGS article to reflect what it actually is: an "Accreditation Controversy". In effect, what Quelfie writes on 8 September 2015 in the comments is really about restoring the claims and citations for one side of this controversy. That is all well and good, but to keep it framed as "Accreditation in the United States" seems illogical.

Please replace the current "Accreditation in the United States" section of this article with the changes below. I have retained all of Qualfie's concerns and citations. I have also added the citations to show that other U.S. states (NY, NJ, VA/DC) do not share the negative views of the states cited in the current article (TX, MI, ME). I also added a direct citation of the U.S Department of Education site that clearly states that EGS is an eligible international university for U.S. student aid. Each of these facts is well cited and relevant to the article. Thanks! InvariantMind (talk) 00:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Accreditation Controversy
The European Graduate School has been embroiled in an accreditation controversy in the U.S. for a number of years. For example, degrees from the EGS are not currently recognized by some U.S. state education authorities. The State of Texas currently includes the university on its published list of institutions that issue "fraudulent or substandard degrees" and notes that it is illegal to use an EGS degree to "obtain employment" within the state. The State of Maine includes the EGS on its list of "Non-Accredited Colleges and Degree Mills." The State of Michigan Civil Service Commission states that degrees from the EGS "will not be accepted...to satisfy educational requirements indicated on job specifications." In other U.S. states EGS graduates are being hired for U.S. faculty positions (for example, at Georgetown University, New York University, and Princeton University ).

The EGS is an EU institution of higher education. The U.S Department of Education’s Federal Student Aid program provides student loan facilities for American citizens wishing to attend the school. The U.S Federal Student Aid School OPE ID for EGS is 03518300. While the school has been accredited by the Swiss Canton of Valaise from its inception, the EGS received its European Union accreditation in 2015.

InvariantMind (talk) 00:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I'll need to see some discussion/consensus before making any changes to the article. Regards &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:27, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Now, the NCFHE has changed the website and we have the online link to the URL as Institute of Higher Education (Level 5-8), which is from BA to PhD:

European Graduate School is recently accredited: everyone can verify this information http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_hei.aspx. Therefore Change {X}The European Graduate School / EGS is a cross-disciplinary institution of higher education awarding Masters and Doctoral degrees within its two divisions: Arts, Health and Society (AHS), and Philosophy, Art and Critical Thought (PACT) in {Y} The European Graduate School / EGS is a cross-disciplinary institution of higher education awarding Masters and Doctoral degrees within its two divisions: Arts, Health and Society (AHS), and Philosophy, Art and Critical Thought (PACT). European Graduate School possesses a European Union Accreditation as an Higher Education Institute (OFFERING COURSES FROM MQF LEVEL 5 - MQF LEVEL 8)​Claudioalv (talk) 18:12, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

The information regarding the U.S. Accreditation are partially incorrect. In particular, the following information is incorrect and outdated: The State of Michigan Civil Service Commission states that degrees from the EGS "will not be accepted...to satisfy educational requirements indicated on job specifications". This statement is based on the external link http://www.abahe.co.uk/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf that does not have anything to do with the Michigan state. Indeed, the official Michigan state website is the following: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf. By clicking on that link, does not appear the EGS as a non-accredited school. Therefore, the current information contained on Wikipedia is inaccurate. Everyone should be able to verify it and correct it by removing the Michigan State info. thanksClaudioalv (talk) 18:18, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

EGS website and Conflict of Interest on Wikipedia
I'd like to draw attention to this claim that currently appears on the EGS website that is specifically about the accreditation issues as discussed on Wikipedia:

″Why does the English Wikipedia entry for The EGS indicate that the school is not accredited in some US states?

The entry on Wikipedia has been vandalized and is inaccurate. We are in formal communication with those responsible at Wikipedia and have asked them to lock the site until it is replaced with a correct page listing.″

This statement (1) falsely characterizes the contents of the Wikipedia page for EGS and (2) blatantly misrepresents the editing history of this article. The referenced accreditation issues in the US are all documented to Wikipedia standards using credible sources from state education agencies. The WP page, as best as I can tell, was also locked in response to vandalism of the article by several EGS-linked accounts that were repeatedly deleting documentation of its accreditation problems in the U.S. This lockdown was NOT requested by the EGS as they claim, but by User:Kizezs on October 30, 2015 after undoing yet another deletion by a likely EGS account. See. In light of this info showing concerted efforts by EGS to alter factual, sourced information on WP that they consider unfavorable I'd actually propose that persons who are affiliated with the EGS be restricted from further editing this article and strictly limited to conducting proposed edits through the requested edit function on the talk page in accordance with Conflict_of_interest. - Contextualist (talk) 01:06, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * They could nullify any such criticism by simply linking to the database showing their accreditation, but they choose instead to posture and assert "vandalism". I wonder why that might be? Guy (Help!) 12:15, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

[User Talk:JzG|Guy] to reply your post http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_hei.aspx. Now, I assume you are in bad faith because you have never given to me an explanation why you do not recognize the National Commission for Further and Higher Education in Malta. Instead of giving an explanation, you just thought the right thing to do was blocking me so I could not write anymore in this talk page. I hope other users and/or editors verify this information and the external link I provided so they can update the current article. thanksClaudioalv (talk) 18:56, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Some OR
This section:
 * EGS is accredited by the State and Canton du Valais (FR) / Kanton Wallis (DE), and in 2015 became an EU accredited Institution of Higher Education, accredited by the National Commission for Further and Higher Education, Malta.

This is based entirely on primary sources, and the relevance is questionable. The first link doesn't work, but a search of the canton's website finds it. Being "recognised" by a single Canton in Switzerland does not appear to equate to accreditation.

Worse, a spreadsheet listing one qualification as accepted in Malta is being used in apparent violation of WP:SYN as a source for the claim that it is an "EU accredited Institution of Higher Education" -- a status that actually does not exist as a thing, and if you Google that phrase, you find (guess what?) that the top hits for that phrase are all EGS. The text was clearly inserted into this article by EGS as promotion, and it should not be here.

So I propose that this paragraph be removed as misleading until we have more robust (i.e. independent) sources. Guy (Help!) 12:01, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * No objections so ✅ &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:36, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

GuyIs the following link http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_hei.aspx a robust (i.e. independent) source? Why you think the relevance is questionable? Is the Malta Accreditation body not recognized according to your opinion? Can you provide any explanation in order to support your statement? You do not recognize the Malta Licence number 2015-007, do you?Claudioalv (talk) 19:07, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * No, because it's a directory. You need to list the authorised bodies that have granted this school accreditation. And I think that by now, if these existed, we'd have heard, given the amount of effort that has gone into pretending that sources other than actual accrediting bodies, are accreditation. Especially since it's not a Maltese company. Guy (Help!) 19:55, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Isn't the NCFHE an authorized body? It seams that Maltese law grants it the authority to accredit higher education institutions.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  20:01, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * This school is headquartered in Switzerland. Here's the list of accredited Swiss institutions. We have been told that this is an "EU accredited Institution of Higher Education" (a style used only by this school) and for a source we are pointed at a directory from Malta, which is, to say the least, not one of the larger EU nations. And we have seen similar tactics for years with this school, and indeed with others (e.g. Bircham International University). Meanwhile we have excellent sources saying that there are significant problems with the place, but they want Wikipedia to provide better PR for them, hence the endless succession of WP:SPAs like Claudioalv. Meanwhile, back in the real world, what are the chances of a genuinely legitimate school not being accredited in its home country? Seriously? Guy (Help!) 22:49, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
 * So can we say so in the article? We can add a sentence saying that the school is accredited in Malta, but not in Switzerland. That would be in accordance with our reliable sources. Is there any reason not to add such a sentence? I don't want to remove the part about accreditation problems, just to add a sentence about Malta accreditation which seam properly sourced and notable information.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  00:05, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Your assumption of good faith does you credit, but unfortunately you have been played for a patsy. This is a Swiss institution. It lacks Swiss accreditation. It promotes itself in the US. It lacks US accreditation. A minor part of its activity is in Malta, where it appears on databases implying accreditation, but Malta has a population of under half a million- many towns are larger than that - and given the substantial geographical reach of this company, a listing in Malta asserted as accreditation globally, especially given the years=-long efforts of this school, identified as substandard by multiple reliable independent sources, amounts to WP:SYN. Which is entirely the aim of the WP:SPAs who promote this content and have done so for a very long time. They are engaged in PR, we are engaged in writing an encyclopaedia, not an advertisement. In general when the only people advocating for a sympathetic treatment of a subjec are WP:SPAs, we ignore them. We should do that here. Guy (Help!) 00:09, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Vanjagenieje for spending time reading my post and not be biased like "Guy"Jzg" who preferred block me rather than verify the information I provided. "we are pointed at a directory from Malta, which is, to say the least, not one of the larger EU nations. And we have seen similar tactics for years with this school, and indeed with others". Can you tell me why be accredited in Malta is different than be accredited in another EU country? Have you got any prejudice against Malta? "National Commission for Further and Higher Education is an Accredited Body according to Malta law to confer degrees. Is not a real word? In addition, I can see that the inaccurate information regarding US accreditation still appears on the Article. The current Michigan info is based on an outdated (2009) link of Arab British Accademy for Higher Education and does not come from Michigan Department of Education. In particular, by reading the EGS Wikipedia article: "The State of Michigan Civil Service Commission states that degrees from the EGS "will not be accepted...to satisfy educational requirements indicone ated on job specifications". This statement is based on the external link that does not have anything to do with the Michigan state. Indeed, the official updated (2016) Michigan state website is the following: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf . By clicking on that link, does not appear the EGS as a non-accredited school. "Guy": is this a real world?Claudioalv (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC) @Jzg Guy What is your reason for stating that Malta Accreditation Body is not recognized in Europe? I provide you the following link which support the fact the, not only in Europe, but in the United States the EGS is accredited. Indeed, the U.S. Council for Higher Education Accreditation http://www.cheainternational.org/intdb/display1.asp?ID=c95 recognizes the Maltese Accreditation Body (National Commission for Further and Higher Education). The Maltese Accreditation Institute provided Licence no. 2015-007 to European Graduate School on April 27, 2015. Lastly National Commission for Further and Higher Education updated their website confirming that EGS is an accredited school http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_hei.aspx. The License is valid from April 2015 to April 2020. Can an administrator update the EGS with these accurate informationClaudioalv (talk) 18:44, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


 * What are you doing? I left you a message here 5 days ago, and you did not even bother to answer, and then you just reverted my edit saying that "there is no consensus". I don't agree. We have a site-wide consensus to include verifiable relevant info in articles. Can you explain what exactly is a problem here?  Vanjagenije  (talk)  00:02, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I do not always see pings, sorry. The issue is that this is a questionable instituiotn demanding that we represent it as legitimate based on listing in a database on alta, population 400,000 (one twentieth of that of London, for example) as evidenc eof globally valid recognition. Why does this Swiss-registered instituion have on accreditation in Switzerland? Why are we told that US gradiates have been employed by various agencies, in lied of the only measure of validity inthe US, accreditation? Obviously I am old and cynical, but I have seen this many ties before from diploma mils. Guy (Help!) 00:13, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * But, I never said that it is an "evidence of globally valid recognition". I wrote that it is accredited in Malta, which seams to be true. We have some reliable sources to back that up. I still do not understand your logic. You think the info about the Malta accreditation should not be included because Malta is small country? So what? Or you think that it should not be included because someone might interpret that being accredited in Malta actually means being accredited globally? I think it is dangerous if we start removing info just because someone may misunderstand it. I am trying to be neutral here, because this article seams quite controversial. And, I think that for the sake of neutrality we should include all verifiable, relevant information about the topic. Now, this School is operating in Malta, and it is accredited by the state of Malta, we have reliable sources for that. Do you think that the information is not relevant or you think that it is not verifiable? Which of these is the problem? And, please, stop saying that it should be removed because Malta is smaller than London, or because the diploma mill wants us to include it. Those are not valid reasons.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  14:36, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * To be clear: I think you are assuming good faith and being decent and nice, and I am a cynical old bastard who has seen dozens of articles on diploma mills and other questionable schools go through exactly the same cycle. The issue is simple: this is not a proper, accredited institution of higher learning, as described in our article on educational accreditation. If you look for accreditation details of a genuine graduate school with international presence - Henley Business School, for example - you find within a couple of clicks that it has a Royal Charter allowing it to award degrees - it is unambiguously accredited and that is . Here, we are being asked to accept primary sources from one tiny island to offset some pretty damning listings. Why, after all these months of trying to change their article, have they not actually managed to provide a single unambiguous source that says they are accredited? As DGG notes, the lengths they have gone to here, with endless sock and meat puppets, offsite campaigns and so on, merely serves to underscore the fact that there is no good evidence that they are properly accredited. And guess what? While we have no sources stating the place is up to scratch, we very much do have sources saying it's not. In other words, this is a real-world problem the school has, and they are trying to use Wikipedia to change the real world, which is the wrong way round. It's not our problem to fix and we should not be unblocking the meatpuppets and encouraging them to continue their agitation, because then good-faith editors like you can be abused as part of their PR campaign. Which is a shame. Guy (Help!) 15:01, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Jzg/Guy It is my understanding that calling someone "patsy" and "questionable" without providing any source to your statement is defamation. You are totally in bad faith because you refuse to read my contribution and because you preferred to block me rather than giving an explanation. I respect users who have different opinion, but I am not use to call them "patsy" or to define diploma mills degree conferred according to a law different from your country. I do not know why you have prejudice against the school, but I do not care about it. What I am requesting is that other impartial and independent administrators check the contributions I provided. The reason why you are in bad faith are two: 1) you have never addressed the fact the the Michigan Education Authorithy is not listing the school as "not recognized". The external link you are still posting does not have anything to do with official Michigan Education Authorithy. In fact, the following link is http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf the only official website of the Michigan Education Authority and does not state that EGS is not accredited. The link you are keeping posting comes from the Arab British Academy for Higher Education http://www.abahe.co.uk/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf and is false (because is not official) and outdated (it dates back to 2009). 2) EGS is a Swiss school. It does not mean that Malta Accreditation is not valid as you have assumed. NCFHE is accredited by the Maltese law to confer degree and NCFHE is recognized by the U.S. Council for Higher Education Accreditation http://www.cheainternational.org/intdb/display1.asp?ID=c95 3) stating that "degrees from the EGS are not currently recognized by many state education authorities in the United States" is incorrect and false. In fact, only Maine and Texas appear to not recognize them, meanwhile no reference to the remaining 48 States is made. Hence, the adjective many is false because 48 states do not include EGS in the "non accredited list". 4)Jzg/Guy/Only should not be the final say to what happen in the article. That's the reason why I requested other administrator comment. 5)JzG/Guy/Only you described me as"endless succession of WP:SPAs like Claudioalv". I do know what do you mean as I registered two weeks ago in order to try to bring accurate and updated information to an inaccurate and outdated article. Rather than reading my post, you blocked me. I hope that Wikipedia community and other administrators can do something to avoid this outrageous behaviour in the near future. Blocking someone instead of reading his contribution is not a proper way to build an encyclopedia. I do not care if you do not want to edit the article because I was told that JzG/Only/Guy is not the final say. What I am looking for is the consensus from the editors so I hope other editors/administrators can check and verify what I posted. ThanksClaudioalv (talk) 07:54, 2 March 2016 (UTC) ( striking per this request by Claudioalv Jytdog (talk) 10:12, 8 April 2016 (UTC) )
 * Yes, you registered in order to "correct" the "inaccuracies" in the article, exactly the same as all the other single-purpose accounts down the years. You are only here to whitewash this article. We do not need that, thanks all the same. Guy (Help!) 15:01, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

European Graduate School is now accredited as a University in Malta. http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_universities.aspx. Because Malta is a sovereign republic and member of the European Union, the current accredition is a European Union Accreditation. In fact, the rules are the same in each of 28 countries in the E.U. the so called Bologna process being a process of homogenization of Higher Education in an European Quality framework. Therefore the School is accredited as a University since February 29, 2016 and as a Higher Education Institution since April 27, 2015. I hope someone [@Vanjagenije, -@Topperfalkon, @DGG, @Damotclese, @Contextualist,@Martin] will eventually edit the article Claudioalv (talk) 17:47, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Is the U.S. accreditation section accurate?
I am writing here since it is my understandig that the user "JzG, Guy" is the only administrator who is able to make decision. Even if there is another administrator with a different point of view [Vanjagenjie}, "JzG/Guy"makes the final decision whether or not edit the EGS article "JzG/Guy" does not like the Maltese accreditation, so it would be not possible to have the EGS article amendend. By doing so, "JzG/Only/Guy" editor has never explained the reason of denying our request. I am asking that other administrators can check what I am writing and I politely request an explanation. Therefore, below I am posting again the contributions with verifiable and external sources any administrator can check.

European Accreditation European Graduate School is a European School headquartered in Switzerland. European Graduate School received the E.U. Accreditation on April 27, 2015 through the Maltese Accreditaion Body "National Commission for Further and Higher Education". The Maltese Accreditation Office recently updated their website with a list of accredited school, and between these appears the European Graduate School http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_hei.aspx. Not stating anything about the E.U. Accreditation is misleading because Wikipedia readers think E.U. has no accreditation even if I provided sources of the Accrediation.

U.S. Accreditation Michigan State info: Why does Wikipedia EGS article host on a misleading external link which does not have anything to do with the Michigan Department of Education? The current information is based on a link of Arab British Accademy for Higher Education and does not come from Michigan Department of Education. In particular, by reading the EGS Wikipedia article: "The State of Michigan Civil Service Commission states that degrees from the EGS "will not be accepted...to satisfy educational requirements indicated on job specifications". This statement is based on the external link website that does not have anything to do with the Michigan state. Indeed, the official Michigan state website is the following: . By clicking on that link, does not appear the EGS as a non-accredited school. Therefore, I politely request to remove X (The State of Michigan Civil Service Commission states that degrees from the EGS "will not be accepted...to satisfy educational requirements indicated on job specifications").

Moreover, I request that the current "Accreditation in the United States" would be also removed for the following reasons. European Graduate School is a European University (and not a U.S. School). In other words, applicant students are aware they are applying to a European University, therefore is not correct that the majority of information contained on Wikipedia is based on a U.S. Accreditation. Lastly, I do not find correct the the article contain the following information: "degrees from the EGS are not currently recognized by many state education authorities in the United States". In fact, only two States appear to not recognize them, meanwhile no reference to the remaining 48 States is made. I assume that 48 States recognize EGS degrees so it is not correct that information. Therefore, please change X ["degrees from the EGS are not currently recognized by many state education authorities in the United States"] in Y [48 States recognize EGS degrees and two States (Texas and Maine) don't.] In addition, in other U.S. states EGS graduates are being hired for U.S. faculty positions (for example, at Georgetown University,[4] New York University,[5] and Princeton University[6][7]). Therefore, why Wikipedia article host only the negative statements and not the positive ones?

Lastly, I provided that the Maine and Texas information are outdated. In fact, the U.S. Council for Higher Education Accreditation  recognizes the Maltese Accreditation Body (National Commission for Further and Higher Education). The Maltese Accreditation Institute provided Licence no. 2015-007 to European Graduate School on April 27, 2015. As I wrote before, National Commission for Further and Higher Education updated their website confirming that EGS is an accredited school. The License is valid from April 2015 to April 2020.

Can a different administrator (from JzG/Only/Guy) update the EGS with these accurate information? Claudioalv (talk) 01:55, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Try searching for this institution here. I don't think you'll be able to find it. --Topperfalkon (talk) 17:04, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Not liking the policies does not give you the right to demand someone else to interpret them. You have no contributions here other than pimping this questionable school. Your assertions based on people having got jobs are naked WP:SYN. I suspect that you are here at the behest of the subject and are part of their long-standing campaign to whitewash this article and use Wikipedia for PR, Guy (Help!)


 * No one person controls a WP article, so I took a look, since I frequently edit this kind of article. When admins disagree over matters like this, they discuss it,and any good faith editor can comment also.


 * But I don't think I disagree with . I do disagree with . I think the article is basically accurate as it stands, but I'll look further at the wording to make sure we have it correct. I think it might use some added precision: we probably do have to add the Malta accreditation/licensing.   As for the  key   points at issue, 1/ since most US States do not formally accredit institutions that do not operate in their state, the 50-2=48 hypothesis is not correct. Most US states give a license to operate, which is just a business license, not accreditation. The same is true of many countries; some give both.  Trying to confuse the two is a common practice of unaccredited or borderline accredited institutions. Vanjagenije, please look at that point more carefully.  2/   I do not see that the CHEA  does more than to list the Malta agency in its directory. My reading of the CHEA site is that they list whatever national agencies they are. 3/ It might be correct to say it is accredited in Malta. The Malta spreadsheets say licensed, and also lists the " Master of Arts, Philosophy and Social Thought" as an accredited program.  The Malta spreadsheets do not seem to clearly distinguish between licensed and accredited. I do not see that even by their standards the doctoral program is licensed or accredited.    The Swiss listing are licenses. Many institutions of this sort establish themselves in Switzerland because some of the cantons will give such licenses. Personally, I regard it as a warning sign.  3/That people from there list themselves as being members of the faculty proves that they list themselves as members of the faculty. That some reputable scholars have so listed themselves is in the article, and relevant. But I need to check the list in detail to see which ones are on the faculty, and which ones have merely given a lecture; the two are quite different.


 * What we really need to find is some explicit discussion in reliable publications--we do not like to use use primary evidence because of the difficulty in interpreting it, DGG ( talk ) 06:39, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you please explain me that you "do not like to use primary evidence because of the difficulty in interpreting it"? National Commission for Further and Higher Education is granted its authority by the Maltese law (revised 2012 education act) and they state that the school is accredited. Why is not sufficient to say that the school is accredited in Malta? It is not clear to me, so if you can better give me an explanation about the Wiki policy would be helpful. Claudioalv (talk) 04:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)


 * User DGG thanks for giving an explanation. I do disagree with you because EGS is a European School. Is the Wikipedia standard that all non-U.S. schools have to be U.S. accredited? I do not find this standard with other different EU School. In other words, why the majority of the information relies on the Maine and Texas Education Authority websites? If EGS is a European School why do not mention an accreditation lawfully received by the Maltese School? IF CHEA list NCFHE as a national agency, why do not rely on it? Can you please verify the genuineness of Michigan reference? I have posted many times that the link is not official and it does not come from Michigan Education Authority.thanksClaudioalv (talk) 08:10, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The claim that EGS is somehow special because it's "European" and therefore implicitly exempt from the requirement to be accredited, is obviously specious. Every argument advanced in favour of asserting accreditation has required us to draw novel interpretations form primary sources. And as DGG notes, this is an absolutely standard technique used by questionable institutions. It's also worth noting that no properly accredited institution has ever had any difficulty demonstrating accreditation by reference to legitimate agencies - and this even applies to two-bit bible colleges in the US that teach creationism.
 * Your arguments are identical with those repeated at this page over a number of years, but never by any editor who came here for any purpose other than to try to whitewash this article. I can't trace any evidence that any of these editors have gone on to edit productively elsewhere, either. I think that by this time it is reasonable to block such users as the meatpuppets they so obviously are. It is a complete waste of the community's time and a naked exploitation of our assumption of good faith, as exemplified by your hoodwinking of Vanjagenije. Guy (Help!) 08:46, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: I strongly suggest this RfC and the one above be closed. The question is overly broad and leading, and the RfC categories this was listed in are irrelevant to the article. Moreover, you appear to be using this as an attempt to avoid requesting a protected edit. This goes to suggest that you'd rather try and wrangle community consensus by misinforming non-experts to push a point of view rather than doing the research required to find reliable sources (presuming they can be found) to demonstrate that this organisation is properly accredited, and that the information currently present in the article is incorrect. If you have the sources to demonstrate that it is indeed correctly accredited, then request a protected edit be made, rather than trying to railroad opinion through via an RfC --Topperfalkon (talk) 16:59, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Topperfalkon@:"Try searching for this institution here. I don't think you'll be able to find it". I said that CHEA recognized Maltese Institution "National Commission for Further and Higher Education". and Maltese Institution "National Commission for Further and Higher Education" granted licence number 2015-007 to European Graduate School on April 27,2015. Why everyone is refusing to write this contribution in the EGS article? Why no one is taking off European Graduate School "Notes 14" that is false because it is related to a not official Michigan Education website?Claudioalv (talk) 17:52, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with here. The RfC as it stood was not precise enough ("Is the U.S. accreditation section accurate?"). I think that we need precise, well reasoned proposal for a potential RfC. So, I closed the above RfC and started a new one below.  Vanjagenije   (talk)  19:13, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Guy@: You wrote to me:"You have no contributions here other than pimping this questionable school". I would clarify you that you have blocked me because according to your erroneous opinion I was a sockpuppetry. In Wikipedia language I understood that you have related me with other accounts. On the contrary, now you are saying that I have no contributions. I think that you should clarify your self and avoid personal attack. thanksClaudioalv (talk) 21:49, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * See WP:SOCK. We treat sockpuppets and meatpuppets equivalently. And note that Wikipedia is not the first place where lots of "brand new users" appear to defend EGS without ever actually providing credible evidence of accreditation to match its scope of operations. Guy (Help!) 00:45, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Guy@: to support your deceive argument you are referring to a conversation between students that dates back to June 2009. In the conversation I can read some comment like the following:"I am a PhD student at EGS, and I think it's been one of the best experiences of my life.". On the opposite, you still refusing to look at the 2015 Accreditation in Malta and you used this talk page and the EGS article to defame the School by abusing your power as an administrator (for example I was blocked without any reason and now I am thinking that other users that you call sockpuppetry had the same treatment). I am not surprising that three different administrators now suggest to include the Malta accreditation in the EGS article. What I am surprising is why Wikipedia policy allows administrator like you to make decisionClaudioalv (talk) 20:54, 3 March 2016 (UTC) ( striking per this request by Claudioalv Jytdog (talk) 10:13, 8 April 2016 (UTC) )

I read in this talk page that user @Guy consider that being accredited in Malta, where the population is 400,000 (one twentieth of that of London) is not the same to be accredited in another large EU country. This argument is based on @guy's ignorance. I want to clarify him and other users that Malta is a sovereign republic http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/member-countries/malta/index_en.htm. With reference to European accreditation, the rules are the same in each of the 28 countries in the European Union - the so called Bologna process being a process of homogenization of Higher Education in an European Quality framework. Further information regarding the Bologna process can be found here http://www.enic-naric.net/ http://www.enic-naric.net/higher-education-institution.aspx  http://www.enic-naric.net/malta.aspx   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claudioalv (talk • contribs) 17:20, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

CHEA only lists institutions accredited by US organisations - search for UK institutions and there are only three: London Metropolitan University, Open University and Richmond, The American International University in London. Accreditation by a CHEA recognised agency is a strong indication that degrees will be accepted, but lack of it, for a non-US institution, is less of an issue if it is accredited in its own country (and this seems to have accreditation, or be in the process of obtaining it, in one country in which it operates. Peter James (talk) 15:54, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Protection
does this still need full protection? If so, could you possibly set an expiry date? I don't like indefinite full protection if it can be avoided. Thanks &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:17, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it obviously still needs full protection.  DGG ( talk ) 06:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Could I set an expiry of a year from now then? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:12, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

@Martin, can you please join the discussion and verify the sources I provided? What are the WIkipedia benefits to host false external link as Notes and References n. 14? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claudioalv (talk • contribs) 04:05, 11 March 2016 (UTC) @DGG As you are an active arbitrator, are you able to verify my contribution? Can you edit the article if consensus has reached or only "Guy" can do it? How can consensus be reached if everyone is just blind to my contributions? It should not take longer to check that Notes and Reference 14 at the botton of the article does not reflect any Michigan official statement, so it is correct to state that it is a false and outdated external linkClaudioalv (talk) 20:35, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Is administrator "Guy/Only/Jzg" the final say what happen in the article?
This is case where only few administrator have an interest in an article, but with this request for comment process I hope to bring in outside people to review and make a decision. JzG behaviour is malicious because he has never explained why does not recognize Malta Accreditation. Being a smaller country than others is not a good reason. He already blocked me and now he is attempting to block me again so he can reach his goal. By reading on the EGS talk page two different administrator have written that "we probably do have to add the Malta accreditation/licensing"@DGG and "We have some reliable sources that say that this school is properly accredited in Malta by the National Commission for Further and Higher Education of Malta" @Vanjagenije. One administrator yesterday edited the article but JzG reverted that edit. I am asking: does JzG make the final decision? If yes, why? JzG's behaviour is also malicious because he tried to hide by changing name to the Michigan misleading link (see Notes and References n. 14 EGS article). It seems that it is a real link (a real world) but is not, because is an outdated pdf that does not have anything to do with the Michigan Education Board [is a pdf written by the Arab British Academy for Higher Education that definitely does not reflect the official Michigan statement]. In fact, the Michigan official website with reference to Non-accredited School is the following http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf and EGS is not in the list. This should be easy to verify. I posted this link 13 times and no one, so far, has given me an explanation why WIkipedia is hosting a false information [i.e.Michigan does not recognize EGS degree] based on an outdated link.Claudioalv (talk) 04:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I removed the RfC tag from the top of this section. The topic is already being discussed in the RfC above on this page. Please, stop creating new RfC requests, this is the third on this page in the ladt two days. Wait for one discussion to be over before starting new related discussion.  Vanjagenije   (talk)  18:31, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

@Vanjagenije thanks for reading my Rfc. I just want to draw your and other users/administrator attention on the false statement which JzG posted Claudioalv (talk) 18:58, 3 March 2016 (UTC)in the EGS Accreditation Section: "The State of Michigan Civil Service Commission states that degrees from the EGS "will not be accepted...to satisfy educational requirements indicated on job specifications."[14]". As I wrote this contribution does not reflect the official Michigan Education Board website info. Can you please bring this argument to the top RfC section too? thanksClaudioalv (talk) 18:58, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 3 March 2016
European Graduate School has been accredited as a University since February 29, 2016 and as a higher education institute since April 2015. The following website is the Official Malta National Commission for Further and Higher Education http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_universities.aspx. I hope Wikipedia administrators have the time to review this information and update the article with the recent accreditation, Also the accreditation section does host and outdated website external link that does not have anything to do with the Michigan Bord of Education. On the contrary the updated official Michigan website is the following: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf and does not include the EGS in any list of "no accredited school". I hope some administrators can find the time to read, review and take off the outdated statement.

Claudioalv (talk) 22:06, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
 * {{{not done}}. This ignores all the problems noted ab ove. All of them. And repeats, as fact, a claim that is contradicted by numerous sources. The sachool is questionable, its accreditation status obscure at best, and licensing of one or two courses by a country whos epopulation is smaller than most cities does not confer legitimacy at the globale level as you have been claiming from the outset. Guy (Help!) 09:32, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Guy: What are your benefits to have removed the official governmental EGS accredited Status? Why you refused to include the official governmental accreditation once an other had edited the article? Why the school is questionable and its accreditation status obscure at the best? Besides, according to your opinion, how many courses should be licenced before you would recognize it? Claudioalv (talk) 03:00, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Why is a one-month old account so interested in this topic? Wikipedia deals with reality. If the only country to mention this school is Malta (area 316 km2, population 450,000), the information is undue for inclusion as it would mislead readers. If a reliable source has information about the significance of the mention, please post links. For example, how does an organization gain accreditation in Malta? What fee is involved? What independent investigation occurs to ensure the accreditation has some meaning? Johnuniq (talk) 03:36, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
 * [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq] I am an user who joined Wikipedia community one month ago. I do not know any other accounts who previously wrote in the talk page and I do not like be defined as an account. I am person who voluntarily accepted the Wikimedia Foundation terms and to join the Wikipedia Community, I have filed 4 unblock request, 3 RFC, one mediation and one arbitration request. Few administrators have checked the info I provided (@soflavander, @DGG, @Vanjagenije, @Damotclese) and you are not in these "few". Please, before attacking me, verify the info I provided. To me the word reliable means official, so I have been posted official link and not false link like JzG did in the EGS article (e.g. Michigan state, he post a false link which does not have anything to do with Michigan Civil Service Commission, see my RFC below). I also have been called sockpoppetry, meatpoppetry, wikilawyering, clueless and sloppy. I do not care. I will post again the accurate and updated information till someone is going to verify it and write why agrees or disagrees. If Wikipedia community wants to ban me again, they are very welcome. I understand that this is an easy way to solve your problem and JzG problem for them. I am not confident about WIkipedia internal dispute resolution because so far they did not work. Lastly, Malta is a European and Sovereign country even if you do not like that. I do not understand what is your problem with Malta official accreditation. Have you got any evidence to doubt about National Commission for Further and Higher Education processes in Malta? If yes, can you cite it? If you write here your e-mail I would like to send the full accreditation certificate. thanks. Claudioalv (talk) 02:49, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

"RfC: Is the information based on Michigan Civil Service Commission [accreditation section] updated?"
This statement in the EGS article is not correct: "The State of Michigan Civil Service Commission states that degrees from the EGS "will not be accepted...to satisfy educational requirements indicated on job specifications". In fact, this information relies on a false (false because is not official) and outdated (it dates back to 2009) external link. In particular, the following and current link http://www.abahe.co.uk/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf comes from the Arab British Accademy for Higher Education and does not reflect the Michigan Civil Service Commission official statement. In other words, the current information is based on the external link that does not have anything to do with the Michigan State. On the contrary, the official and updated (2016) Michigan state website is the following: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf . By clicking on that link, does not appear the EGS as a non-accredited school. Moreover, I note that it sets forth: "Degrees issued by foreign colleges and universities may be accepted if an applicant or employee presents evidence to demonstrate that the degree represents education equivalent to similar studies at an accredited university". So, my question for this RfC is: Should we take off the information about the Michigan Civil Service Commission to the EGS article, Accreditation Section?. Claudioalv (talk) 03:30, 13 March 2016 (UTC) Claudioalv (talk) 03:22, 13 March 2016 (UTC).
 * No, instead we should topic ban obvious Single Purpose Accounts with obvious Conflicts of Interest who are also probably violating the Terms of Use by being paid editors without declaring themselves as such, and allow normal unconflicted editors to decide what goes in the article. Don't make the assumption that because we Assume Good Faith we're also idiots who can't see what's there to be seen. BMK (talk) 23:05, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * BMK: I am not suprising that you are threating to ban me. The editor you are supporting has already banned me, so go ahaed in order to achieve your goal.I am not paid by EGS for writing here and I was not paid for writing 4 unblock request, RfC, Mediation and Arbitration request. As I wrote previously, I am here because there are misleading info and I specified what are that info. You and other editors are just indifferent and refused to read my contributions or at least to verify the sources. Your post is a proof or that: In order to state that Michigan does not recognize EGS degrees (false information), should Wikipedia rely on a Arab British Accademy for Higher Education or should WIkipedia rely on the official Michigan Civil Service Commission? Can you answer this simple question? I do not make the Assumption that because you are in good faith you are also idiot. I doubt that the expert administrator you are supporting is in good faith and I guess that the majority of administrators/editors/accounts are indifferent to the fact that WIki hosts a misleading Article. Claudioalv (talk) 05:11, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Please re-set your reading comprehension level to "high", and you will see that I have not "threatened" to "ban" you, because I am not an admin and do not have the power to do that. I have, however, warned you, as a rank-and-file Wikipedia editor, that your behavior has the potential to subject to a topic ban  (which is not the same as a "ban" or a "block"), and have suggested as well that the evidence indicates to me, after almost 11 years of editing here, that you are not the wide-eyed innocent editor your describe yourself to be  Your response says nothing which changes my opinion - rather the opposite, actually.BMK (talk) 07:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * BMK:::: I am aware that an other administrator is trying to ban me and you are supporting his statement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents . You can warn me again, but I am not stopping to post accurate information in this talk page by respecting the Wikimedia Foundation Terms of Use I have signed. Indeed, pursuant these terms: "You are Free to Contribute To and Edit our various sites or Project". Now, Wikipedia is one of these projects and I find some information about the EGS article inaccurate, misleading and partially false. I have explained why and I provided Official sources, official because they are relating to an authority or public body and its duties, actions, and responsibilities, i.e. Michiagan Civil Service Commission. However, Wikipedia EGS article relies to an unofficial source (and outdated source), i.e. Arab British Academny of Higher Education (unofficial because it is a private body and does not have anything to do with Michigan). Again this is easy to verify, but your refusal shows you are indifferent to my contribution and you probably did not read it. I would like discuss about the merit of this RfC and not about your rank-and-file status or my current status of wide-eyed innocent editor. Help us to get a better Encyclopedia. thanks. Claudioalv (talk) 17:09, 17 March 2016 (UTC)


 * No, it's textbook WP:SYN. Guy (Help!) 23:43, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
 * GuyWP:SYN Seriously? Is a Synthesis of published material? I can read the following: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources?". Now, by referring to an official website link, i.e. Michigan Civil Service Commission, what conclusion am I trying to reach? Why it is so hard to verify that the Michigan does not publish any "Non Accredited School" list? Anyway I note that you are still acting as a judge here, even if a different administrator [] has written: "While I think it's commendable that JzG is looking over this article, I think his entire modus operandi is a little excessive and I think that the article and situation needs more eyes and more admin eyes, not a single-handed dictatorship." thanks 03:13, 25 March 2016 (UTC)Claudioalv (talk)
 * GuyWP:SYN This Rfc is about Michigan info. I do not imply any conclusion. I am just saying that the current Michigan info does not appear true, because the updated Michigan website does not publish any list of no accredited school. Am I wrong? I do not understand why you said that is a textbook WP:SYN. If you can further explain it would be helpful. thanks. Claudioalv (talk) 04:58, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 3 March 2016
Accreditation

The European Graduate School is accredited to offer MA and PhD degrees through the National Commission for Further and Higher Education (NCFHE) of the European nation of Malta.

http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_universities.aspx (Excel List Provided on Right Blue Box Link) http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/register.aspx

The National Commission for Further and Higher Education (NCFHE) adheres to the European Qualification Framework (EQF) allowing transportability of higher education degrees within Europe.

http://ec.europa.eu/ploteus/

The National Commission for Further and Higher Education (NCFHE) of Malta is also recognized as a Accrediting Organization/Quality Assurance Body by the Council of Higher Education Accreditation in the United States, which regulates the transportability of international higher education degrees to institutions of higher education in the United States.

http://www.cheainternational.org/intdb/display1.asp?ID=c95

152.10.155.177 (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2016 (UTC) Hello, I am not a Wikipedia editor, simply a user. I am suggesting edits for the accreditation section only. As perspective graduate student at the European Graduate School, I had been doing research on issues regarding its accreditation to make sure I had the correct information. Thus I found incorrect accreditation information on the the Wikipedia page. I just spoke with the staff at the Council of Higher Education Accreditation, which is how I found the correct information. Please see the suggested edit above. I included links for citations, but don't know how to insert those.
 * ❌. Discussed to death already. Guy (Help!) 23:42, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Guy As long as you are looking over this article, editing the article would not be likely. Nevertheless there are different opinions in the RfC section, [], [], there is only one judge/executioner who takes decisions. He firstly blocked me and then started a discussion in the Administrator's noticeboard to ban me (without being successful this time). Therefore, if you disagree with him, his modus operandi is kicking you out. thanks Claudioalv (talk) 03:28, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Guy You are being excessively annoying and starting to anger me, Claudioalv is absolutely correct -- and he/she looks to be as annoyed with your behavior as I am. You are wrong and you are engaged in an ideological edit war predicated upon some bias or bigotry. The facts of the issue are that the school is fully accredited by a legitimate listing entity. I think it's long since time we get you suspended since you're intransigent about the legitimate references and citations long-since provided which shows the editor's proposed update is fully accurate, encyclopedia, and correct. We editors are volunteers, we don't get paid to improve articles, we don't need you wasting our time on this any more. Damotclese (talk) 16:32, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Caudioalv is a WP:SPA who is here solely with the agenda of removing critical commentary about a school widely identified as questionable. The user keeps proposing the same edits time after time after time. This specific proposal requires us to engage in novel synthesis, directly replacing a relibale source with an inference based on the statement of the school, based in turn on the fact that a couple of course shave been accredited in a country whose population is smaller than many towns. Let's be clear here: the school claims EU-wide legitimacy based on this one accreditaiton, but there is no such concept - EU states are not required to recognise accreditation by other EU states, the "transportability" is a smokescreen, these degrees may or may not be accepted by other states and degrees awarded by the same school in other countries (i.e. most of the degrees it awards) are not covered by this accreditation. The school is headquartered in Switzerland, where it is not accredited. So: it is a complex matter and one in which the school has consistently been disingenuous; they have also send an endless succession of single-purpose accounts here to try to whitewash the article. As a result some of us who have long experience of the way quesitonable schools behave, are deeply cynical about these claims. And you should be as well. These degrees are, as far as the independent evidence goes, pretty much worthless, and the much-hyped all star staff are not the people who actually teach the courses, reports from people who have paid many thousands of dollars and Euros to atend these courses speak of the headline teachers giving one or two video seminars at best.
 * We can say that the school appears to eb accredited in Malta. That's fine. We absolutely must not engage in synthetic extension of that to state wider acceptance of the courses, because there are no reliable independent sources supporting such a claim and it's at odds with the fact that they are explicitly listed as substandard by at least one US state. Genuinely legitimate schools are not listed as unacceptable by state governments. It doesn't happen. Guy (Help!) 17:52, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Guy What we need to wait for say in the article that the school is accredited in Malta? The Rfc results is clear and your comment too. Claudioalv (talk) 04:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We need a proposed edit that does not violate WP:SYN by implying that the accreditation of some courses by Malta implies anything more than that those courses are accredited in Malta. Example: As of 2015, courses X, Y and Z are accredited in Malta. You will know the courses and the actual date, since you have contacts there, so you propose it. Guy (Help!) 13:42, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The edit I propose is: "European Graduate School is licensed as a University (Licence Number 2015-007) by the National Commission For Further and Higher Education. EGS is licensed to operate as a University at the following address: St James Cavalier Centre for Creativity, La Valletta. As a University EGS is licensed to deliver programmes classified up to Level 8 of the Malta Qualification Framework (MQF). The License for EGS to operate as a University is valid for five years (February 2016 - February 2021). The list of MQF Level 8 and Level 7 Qualifications conferred by EGS are the following: [A] Level 8 of the Malta Qualification Framework and of the European Qualifications for Framework for Lifelong Learning "1)Phd in Expressive art; 2) Phd in Philosophy, Art, and Social Thought; 3) Phd in Literary Musical, and Visual Thought. [B] Level 7 of the Malta Qualification Framework and of the European Qualifications for Framework for Lifelong Learning: 1) Master of arts in Philosophy, Art, and Social Thought; 2) Master of arts in Expressive Art, Therapy with a minor in psicology, 3) Master of Arts in Expressive Art Coaching and Consulting; 4) Master of Arts in Musical, Literary and Visual Thought; 5) Master of Arts in Expressive Arts Conflict Transformation and Peacebuilding. This reflects the current accreditation (or license)." It does not imply more that these specific courses are accredited in Malta. Let me know if it might work. thanks Claudioalv (talk) 04:57, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Recruiting
I've added a recruiting tag to this article based on this and this. Jytdog (talk) 21:43, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Trivial request
Shouldn't "privately funded" be "privately-funded"? BMK (talk) 22:59, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I would need a day studying MOS:HYPHEN to answer that. Johnuniq (talk) 23:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, you may be right, but my understanding (not of MOS, but what the rest of the English-speaking world says) is that the phrase "privately funded" is being used as an adjective in a list of adjectives (i.e. "privately funded international graduate school"), so therefore, as an adjective, should be hyphenated. The rule of thumb, as I've always understood it, is if you can list either part of the compound adjective separately and have it make sense, then there's no need for the hyphen, but "privately international graduate school" makes no sense and "funded international graduate school" makes sense, but does not convey the information that is intended.  So... whatever MOS might happen to say about it, "privately-funded international graduate school" is what we do in English to describe schools that take in graduate students from all over the world, and is not funded by public money.  At least, that's how I was taught. BMK (talk) 18:57, 31 March 2016 (UTC)


 * (Longterm professional editor speaking): No, and this is pretty basic: Any adverb ending in "ly" specifically does not take a hyphen when it precedes a verb + noun in an adjectival phrase, and adding a hyphen to such a construction is not only unnecessary, it is completely incorrect. The "-ly" creates the adjectival-phrase link; thus any further linking is redundant and incorrect. Softlavender (talk) 06:16, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * ah grammar. i love it. yes, hyphenating an adverb to the adjective it modifies is not necessary nor correct, but language is a living thing and one does find it. Jytdog (talk) 19:45, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I thank you both for the information. BMK (talk) 23:02, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Follett's Modern American Usage agrees with both of you, so I now have to adjust my thinking. (He does point out that adjectival phrases formed with "well" do take a hyphen.} Learn something new every day.  Thanks again. BMK (talk) 23:14, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Accreditation is hard
I've been looking for independent sourcing on accreditation generally to get context (for example, where do I find out where say Harvard is accredited? that one is not too hard :)  )  Turns out that getting accredited is hard and expensive, and controversial. See here and here for example.  It is also sometimes hard to find WP:INDY sources on accreditation.  Here is what I found:


 * This site seems pretty good. http://www.4icu.org/ covers the world.   Has a bunch of swiss universities here and some from malta.   EGS is not there.


 * http://www.eunicas.co.uk/ seems useful - has lots of EU universities. EGS is not there.

It is difficult to solve things when there is a lack of good sourcing. Have others found other sites they have checked? Jytdog (talk) 02:16, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * That has been a consistent problem with this article, and there is no doubt it is relevant to the school's repeated attempts to synthesise from directories. Guy (Help!) 10:15, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Connected contributor template in header
I had gone through the history and recorded the history of COI and WP:SPA editing to this article; each entry reflected a different contribution history showing the pressure that this article has been under throughout its existence. In this dif, User:Vanjagenije trimmed the IP editors, with an edit note: "Removing IPs. All those IPs were used for a short period of time, many years ago. They have been assigned to different people long ago. They are totally irrelevant for this page now." I don't agree with the rationale provided there at all, as the purpose of the tags is to show the specific history of this article. I of course will not edit war, and the dif provided shows what was there, so I won't contest this, other than simply noting it. Jytdog (talk) 00:17, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If somebody wants to know about the history of the article, they may look, well, into the history of the article.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  00:45, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Well yes but in a collaborative project we can help each other by recording that work. And again, this is the purpose of the template.  I don't understand what you think the purpose of the template is, but that is not a discussion for this Talk page. I will ask you at yours. Jytdog (talk) 01:03, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The instructions say it should be used "when dealing with an editor who has an actual conflict of interest", not to list every editor or IP address used here that could, possibly, have a conflict of interest, and clearly not IP addresses last used more than 12 years ago for edits that may have only been test edits and didn't add anything. Some of these may be the same editor, IP addresses will now be used by people without a conflict of interest, and people who had a conflict of interest 12 years ago may not have now. Peter James (talk) 21:01, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We need to improve the instructions there.  Peter, please note that the COI guideline distinguishes actual conflict of interest (which is something that we here in WP can only know if it is actually disclosed by the user) from WP:POTENTIALCOI and from WP:APPARENTCOI.  Per the actual wording of the template above "The following Wikipedia contributors may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of the article..." (emphasis added) it is clear that the template is intended to be used for WP:APPARENTCOI and can also be used with WP:ACTUALCOI.  Each of the entries above, is a SPA that came here to promote EGS - this is apparent from their edits.  Jytdog (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * So you accept that the template shouldn't be used in this way and suggest changing it so that it can be? And if an editor adds information to one article per day, and changes IP address every day, will each be identified on the talk page as having a conflict of interest? Peter James (talk) 22:52, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I don't accept that. I have removed it because the template itself makes no sense for other reasons, and I won't use it going forward. Jytdog (talk) 23:07, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I stuck the header in an archive section here so it can be referred to if needed later. Jytdog (talk) 10:44, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Edit request
The lead at present says: 'Funded in Switzerland, the School operates on two locations:' … … this may very well be a typo for 'Founded', if it is not a typo, a 'cit tag' or 'what tag' should be added as to clarify in what sense EGS receives Swiss funding.Pincrete (talk) 11:47, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
 * You are right, it's a spelling error. I fixed it.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  14:00, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Edit request
Requesting the following to be added below the references section in the article (with a header2 style) from an uninvolved admin. These articles serve to demonstrate notability for the topic and can be used to improve the article. North America1000 00:51, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Archiving?
You archived open RFC (it was still active at the time of your archiving). I don't thinks that is OK.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  18:08, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * whoops, sorry. that was a mess on several levels, and was on the edge of expiring.  Do you think it is actually close-able and we should pull it back out of the archive? Jytdog (talk) 18:11, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do think so. I asked a direct question and I expect a direct answer: whether or not we have a consensus to include certain material in the article.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  18:18, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * my apologies. I have restored it and !voted there. I  don't think closing that is going to move the article forward, but i am happy to comply with process.  my apologies again.  Jytdog (talk) 18:40, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * How long the Rfc should run? @Softlavander wrote above that it should run for 30 days and that period has already expired because you opened the Rfc on March 2. thanksClaudioalv (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It expired. Now we wait for an admin to close it.  Folks can continue !voting in it until it is closed. Jytdog (talk) 00:56, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I posted a WP:request for closure, and the discussion is open until someone uninvolved would close it. Sometimes, a month or more may pass before the closure, because of the backlog.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  07:47, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * (sorry for the ping, if you are watching this page) -- do you see what i mean in my !vote in the RfC and in the draft version above? I am trying to thread the needle here - to find consensus -   and comply as closely as possible with the relevant policies and guidelines, and it seems that the version i am proposing is something that both claudioalv and Guy (the two ends of the spectrum here pretty much) can both live with it, once we solve the Maine issue.... Jytdog (talk) 22:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * @Jytdog: thanks for looking over the article. I do agree with 95% of your above proposal content. It is reasonable and supported by sources (even if they are primary). ABout the Rfc other editors agreed to include the accreditation (or license, I do think that is appropriate to use the word license because on the contract they say licensed) and even Guy wrote "to be clear, I don't have an issue with us stating that some courses are accredited in Malta. That is supported by the source, albeit that it is primary". I have also written what are the course accredited (or licensed) in Malta. Claudioalv (talk) 22:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
 * we will see what the closer says but in my view they will probably find "no consensus" as opposed to "yes" or "no".  That is not uncommon in closes.  And it means that we have to start over.  This is why I created the section above. Jytdog (talk) 22:51, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Someone should list it at AN for Requested Closes, and specify that an uninvolved admin should close it. It should also be prominently noted that the accreditation and link that provided in the OP of the RfC changed during the course of the RfC -- the link is now a different one (altthough Vanjagenije never changed the OP) and the accreditation is now as a university. Softlavender (talk) 02:51, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * not really "accreditation". Please do see what DGG wrote here ... Jytdog (talk) 06:52, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see any point in re-arguing this case. DGG was probably not even looking at the appropriate link, because Vanjagenije never changed his OP even though I had requested him to do so when I saw the change. It's clear the official governmental body of Malta has accredited the EGS in the category "UNIV​ERSITIES (OFFERING​ CO​URSES FROM MQF LEVEL 5 - MQF LEVEL 8)" . ​Here are some additional relevant materials on that: . Moreover DGG was talking about the EU, which is not what the RfC is about. If someone wants to split various hairs, the burden of disproof is on them at this point. I have no interest in re-hashing any of this further or again, so please do not call me into this conversation further. Softlavender (talk) 07:28, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * ? Ack.  DGG was talking about how accreditation works.  It has to do with whether specific degree programs are recognized as valid.  Whole institutions are actually not accredited.  There is another matter of being licensed or registered as a "educational institution" at all.  What the very link you brought there shows (which is the same one I brought above), is that EGS is licensed as a university.  If you dig into Maltese law you can see that what it means to be licensed as a university in Malta, is that you can self-accredit degree programs.  That is a very different thing from saying that Malta accredited them.  I don't want to get into all that mess - I just want to report what that source says, which is that they are licensed as a university in Malta.  Do you see?  The word "accredited" is inflammatory here as well - Guy is dead opposed; DGG doesn't like it much either because of what i just said.    We can thread the needle here. Jytdog (talk) 08:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

RfC
We have some reliable sources that say that this school is properly accredited in Malta by the National Commission for Further and Higher Education of Malta (NCFHE). Here they are: Now, I tried to use those sources and add this information to the article (diff), but was reverted by another user (diff) under the pretext that Malta is small country and that being accredited in Malta does not mean that the institution is properly accredited. But, I never said that it is properly accredited or anything similar. I just added the info found in reliable sources.

So, my question for this RfC is: Should we add the information about the Malta accreditation to the article?  Vanjagenije  (talk)  19:13, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Vanjagenije@ thanks. It is nice that someone is reading my contribution. I have also the documents which show the National Commission for Further and Higher Education has issued a license on April 2015. I would like to send to you or to other administrators by e-mail if they want. Can you also verify the Note and Reference number 14 at the botton of EGS Article?The Michigan Education Board no longer publish a list of institutions that might be degree mills and the current pdf does not have anything to do with the Michigan Education Board. In fact, it is a link of Arab British Academy for Higher Education and not of Michigan State. The most recent Michigan State link is the following http://www.michigan.gov/documents/Non-accreditedSchools_78090_7.pdf and EGS does not appear in the list. Thanks for spending your time here.Claudioalv (talk) 20:25, 2 March 2016 (UTC) — Claudioalv (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Exclude as WP:SYN and an obvious attempt to assert accreditation based on no actual evidence that the majority of the school's courses and locations have any accreditation at all. Guy (Help!) 00:41, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Include the school  Evaluating the references offered ^ above ^ I find that the school is obviously legitimately accredited by a legitimate reference organization that performs accreditation listing. I was called in by the RFC bot, and looking at the behavior of one of the editors I will refrain from naming, I find his or her behavior unacceptable. I have not seen any valid reason for excluding the school, yet I find that the reasons and references offered for including the school are wholly appropriate. I see sock puppets are being claimed to be being used and other unprofessional behavior. I recommend re-adding the school and if it is once again reverted, banning the offending editor and implementing page protection.
 * By the way, I have extensive knowledge of school, university, and academy accreditation since I have done extensive work in this arena, starting in 1994 when evaluating "drug treatment" accreditation and school accreditation claims as they relate to bunko fraud in a law enforcement arena. What constitutes legitimacy of school accreditation is not what one of the warring editors apparently believes it to be. Accreditation constitutes more than just matching another entity's curriculum, practices, policies, and procedures; Accreditation also includes being listed by listing agencies which group like-related entities which meet the accreditation organization's requirements for listing. This is how the State of California, as an example, provides lists of accreditation agencies which themselves provide lists of accredited schools, alcohol treatment facilities, narcotics treatment facilities, domestic abuse counseling facilities, and many other such companies and organizations. I'm considered an expert on the subject to the point where I am at times a paid expert witness for criminal and civil court cases where questions about the legitimacy of such accreditation of organizations is part of the litigation. Thanks. Damotclese (talk) 17:13, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

European Graduate School is now accredited as a University in Malta. http://ncfhe.gov.mt/en/register/Pages/list_universities.aspx. Because Malta is a sovereign republic and member of the European Union, the current accredition is a European Union Accreditation. In fact, the rules are the same in each of 28 countries in the E.U. the so called Bologna process being a process of homogenization of Higher Education in an European Quality framework. Therefore the School is accredited as a University since February 29, 2016 and as a Higher Education Institution since April 27, 2015. I hope someone [@Vanjagenije, -@Topperfalkon, @DGG, @Damotclese, @Contextualist,@Martin] will eventually edit the article 17:47, 7 March 2016 (UTC)Claudioalv (talk)
 * There is, and I am surprised I have to repeat it, no such thing as European accreditation. A Google search for the term of art shows that it is used only by this one institution. Guy (Help!) 09:34, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

@Guy I am also surprised that this talk page is between me and you, but you are able to take decision as you are an expert administrator. I have also open a RFC asking if you are the final say or the consensus is the final say. I found your argument [Malta is a small country to confer global accreditation] more frivolous than weak. It does not exist any global accreditation. The current European Accrediation is the so called Bologna process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process and the rules are the same for the 28 European Country, does not matter how many people live there. This is easy to verify and understand, but you are turning a deaf ear to that fact. The concept of "global accrediation" is also groundless because in EGS is a European School and their accreditation must be regulated by European Process called Bologna and not based on "google search" made at random. On the other side, U.S. process is governed by CHEA, but Wikipedia EGS article is hosting only US accreditation section as you are the only user to edit the article. In legalese I would call that bad faith and defamation [Wikipedia community knows about the EU EGS accreditation and refuse to update the EGS article]. If you want to say that in different and not legal words, you can say that Wikipedia friendly community is just blind and indifferent to EGS School Claudioalv (talk) 19:31, 9 March 2016 (UTC)( striking per this request by Claudioalv Jytdog (talk) 10:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC) )


 * The Bologna Process is not a system for accreditation or an equivalent of CHEA. Above you refer to enic-naric.net, and on http://www.enic-naric.net/bologna-process.aspx you can read: Although the Bologna Process and its structural reforms have greatly facilitated the recognition of qualifications within the EHEA, the Bologna Process still does not imply automatic recognition of qualifications between EHEA countries. (The EHEA is the European Higher Education Area, which is the geographical area within which students and academic staff should be allowed to move freely.) Another document is the UNESCO one at http://www.unesco.org/new/en/education/themes/strengthening-education-systems/higher-education/recognition/bologna-process/ : In essence, the Bologna Process facilitates the recognition of foreign academic degrees and qualifications.  So again, the Bologna Process is not an accreditation system, it is a process(!) designed to make mutual recognition of degrees easier within Europe (and outside it). --bonadea contributions talk 21:23, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks @bonadea for your clarification about Bologna. If Bologna is not an accreditation system, but a process designed to make mutual recognition of degrees easier within Europe [I agree with you], and if Malta is a sovereign country and it is part of Europe, I do not see any reason to exclude the Accreditation which was conferred upon Maltese law. I would like that you also write something about the accreditation problem I raised because the RFC is about "Guy" who does not recognize the EGS accreditation conferred pursuant Maltese law (Malta is part of E.U. and it is a sovereign country) and not about Bologna process. "Guy" or "JzG" is the only editor who is able to make decisions about the EGS article and he maliciously built an article in order to defame the EGS. Even if EGS is a European School, 30% of the Article is based on the U.S. Accreditation and the info regarding Michigan is false because does not have anything to do with the official Michigan Board of Education. "JzG" retrivied the pdf on February 18 and it falsely shows up a Michigan official link (if you open Notes and References 14 you will see that the pdf belongs to an Arab British Academy of Education - in fact the link is u.k. - and the Arab British Academy of Education does not reflect the official statement of Michigan Board of Education which does not include EGS in any "no accredited School" list. As you spent time to clarify that Bologna is a process and not an accreditation system [again I agree with you] I hope you will spend a couple of minutes to click on Notes and References 14 and check it what I have written is true or false. Thanks for participating in this discussionClaudioalv (talk) 04:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)( striking per this request by Claudioalv Jytdog (talk) 10:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC) )


 * Comment: Since there is a bit of reverting going on on this full-protected article, this RfC should run for the full 30 days and then be closed by an uninvolved admin. Softlavender (talk) 04:22, 12 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment 2:, the first citation you list no longer mentions the European Graduate School. However it is now listed as an accredited university in Malta on that same official governmental site (link provided above by another user): , so I presume it was upgraded. Softlavender (talk) 04:22, 12 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Include official governmental Maltese accreditation as a university per . I have no current opinion on the other kinds of accreditation or semi-accreditation being mentioned elsewhere in this RfC discussion, because it's a little too blurry right now, but the RfC itself is about Maltese governmental accreditation, which it clearly now meets as a university. Softlavender (talk) 04:27, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * @sofrlavander thanks for spending time reading my post. Now there are three different editors who agree to include the school as a University. How long time should I wait to have the article updated with that information? Why the final decision is "Guy"'s decision? Is a free Enciclopedia or is a "Guy"'s Enciclopledia. I really appreciate that you spent some time to write in this section. Other administrator have been totally indifferent to this Rfc. thanksClaudioalv (talk) 06:06, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Claudioalv: The RfC should run for 30 days (which is the norm for contentious RfCs), and then it should be closed by an uninvolved adminstrator who has not edited on this article or talk page. Then the result (or lack thereof) should be reflected in the article. By the way, some advice: Stop talking about JzG on this page; if you continue to do so you may possibly be blocked again, this time for a longer period. On this page discuss content, not editors. Also, learn some very basic format: Indent your posts properly with colons under the post you are responding to (I have done that for you above); use a period at the end of your posts before your signature; use a space before you type four tildes; spell things (and usernames) carefully and correctly. Right now your sloppy writing makes you seem careless, and when added to your poor or sloppy English adds to the difficulty people have in following what you say or in taking it seriously. Softlavender (talk) 06:52, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Softlavender: Thanks for your advise about basic format. Regarding he Article content, I found not acceptable that EGS should wait 30 days for the RfC. My contribution is clear, verifiable, supported by official link and three editors agreed to include the Malta accreditation in the article. EGS is school has been accredited as a University, so avoiding to cite the University status is making the article incomplete and it is jeopardizing the EGS reputation. If fact, if I were [and I am not] a prospective students I would think carefully if apply or not for a University [falsely] described as no accredited. I do have official documents which proof the University Accreditation and I have sent them to Wikimedia Foundation Legal Counsel and Wikipedia Information Team Volunteers. I have written so many times in the talk page to support the fact the school is accredited. I do not understand why an involved editor has the power to edit the article and build it with false information (Lacks of E.U. accreditation, false external link, see Notes and References no. 14). Nor I understand why Wikipedia administrators and editors who wrote in this talk page have not done anything yet [to correct the false statement]. Waiting 30 days is just postpone the issue that an editor is defaming EGS by keep posting false information. Lastly, sorry for my poor English, I am not a native English speaker, but I tried to do my best. In my opinion, the issue that people are not following what I say is that they do not care that an article is hosting false information. Claudioalv (talk) 01:39, 13 March 2016 (UTC)( striking per this request by Claudioalv Jytdog (talk) 10:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC) )


 * To be clear, I don't have an issue with us stating that some courses are accredited in Malta. That is supported by the source, albeit that it is primary. The problem is the assertion that this therefore implies that it is accredited throughout the EU (WP:SYN) and that this nullifies the statements from American sources listing its degrees as unacceptable (not only WP:SYN but also false). The core of the problem here is that this is not a Maltese university. It is headquartered in Switzerland (where it is not accredited) and claims to operate internationally. There's an interesting article here which discusses this problem. We have had the same issue for years with Bircham International University - they also badger any external source that notes their questionable status, and occasionally they will succeed in getting one taken down just to get them to shut up, at which point they come right back here demanding that the article be changed because the source has changed (this happened, for example, with Bear's Guide). Meanwhile, the academic standard doesn't change. And very occasionally (e.g. St Christopher Iba Mar Diop College of Medicine) the whole house of cards comes crashing down. St Chris no longer has a campus in the UK. I say campus, it was an industrial unit in Luton. Guy (Help!) 12:09, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The European Graduate School is accredited as a university in Malta, by the official governmental accrediting body. That's all this RfC is concerned with, and that is verified by . Softlavender (talk) 03:07, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

@Guy American sources are outdated and especially one (Michigan) is false and you have maliciously built the EGS article. In fact, by reading the article you were the able to edit, the Wikipedia reader will be aware that this school lacks of accreditation. And this is false and you well know the reasons. And if you do not have any issue with the course accredited in Malta, why you reverted the article when an other administrator updated the article on March 1 with Malta accreditation? You are here to defame the school and not to write a neutral Enciclopedia and because the Wikipedia weak policy you have been successful. About the other issues, they are not relevant and simply you are trying to avoid to say that EGS is accredited. Malta is a sovereign republic and part of the European Union and Bologna process applies to Malta. Maltese law conferred a formal University status to EGS and not recognizing Maltese law as you have done some far should not be acceptable. Lastly, the school has never claimed to be accredited globally [there is no formal global accreditation], but they claim that formal University status would be recognized and you have abused your power as an administrator to build a false and biased article on Wikipedia Claudioalv (talk) 14:28, 12 March 2016 (UTC)( striking per this request by Claudioalv Jytdog (talk) 10:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC) )


 * Are you copying and pasting this? You keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over again. I have read your argument. I am unpersuaded. You have a clear vested interest in this, which I do not, and continually hectoring people who fail to accept your self-serving interpretation of facts is simply not acceptable. Guy (Help!) 23:12, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Guy:I would like to cite this Albert Einstein quote "Insanity:doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". Once I have written that, an administrator accepted my forth unblock request. Therefore it did work! I want to persuade other editors who are not in bad faith that EGS European Accreditation is lawful according to Maltese law. Also Malta is a sovereign and part of EU country (so Bologna process shall apply). By refusing to recognize Maltese law is showing that your conduct is malicious, and your only purpose here is defaming EGS. Claudioalv (talk) 01:48, 13 March 2016 (UTC)( striking per this request by Claudioalv Jytdog (talk) 10:15, 8 April 2016 (UTC) )


 * Include official governmental Maltese accreditation as a university per . Claudioalv (talk) 04:23, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Should this RfC have run for 30 days? I was opened more than 30 days ago and the article does not reflect the RfC result. Thanks. Claudioalv (talk) 04:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * No, because it is not clear whether the accreditation is for particular courses or from the university--their documents are not consistent. I have no idea whatsoever whether all, or only some, of its courses have ever been recognized by the EU, or even if any individual has ever actually had any course there accepted by any other EU university.  I doubt whether  is truly clear on any of these questions, and whether he makes his conclusions because he knows of unambiguous published documentation to show it. Primary documents need to be interpreted by secondary sources unless they are clear on their face.  I note this is also true about accreditation by various US state and Swiss Cantons--the term is used by them in multiple meanings, and it takes research to determine this. We can only use either if it is first reported by an established writer on education, who can be presumed to have done his research. In the absence of such reliable secondary sources, we need to limit ourselves to what is unambiguous and well known, for example the US Regional accreditation boards. Frankly, including this fact would be like saying a lawyer is license to practice in one particular US state, but omitting to say that he has been disbarred elsewhere.  DGG ( talk ) 13:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * EGS is accredited (or licenced as you want) to deliver the following programmes: [A] Level 8 of the Malta Qualification Framework and of the European Qualifications for Framework for Lifelong Learning "1)Phd in expressive art; 2) Phd in Philosophy, Art, and Social Thought; 3) Phd in Literary Musical, and Visual Thought. [B] Level 7 of the Malta Qualification Framework and of the European Qualifications for Framework for Lifelong Learning: 1) Master of arts in Philosophy, Art, and Social Thought; 2) Master of arts in Expressive Art, Therapy with a minor in psicology, 3) Master of Arts in Expressive Art Coaching and Consulting; 4) Master of Arts in Musical, Literary and Visual Thought; 5) Master of Arts in Expressive Arts Conflict Trasnformation and Peacebuilding. You wrote: "Primary documents need to be interpreted by secondary sources unless they are clear on their face". I do think a primary source is clear in its face when it is official, i.e. it stems from an Insitute (NCFHE) which was granted its authority on the domestic law (in this case the 2012 revised Education Act) made by a Parliament democratically elected by its citizens (Maltese Parliament). Also Malta is a sovereign country member of the E.U. I do not understand why this source is not enough to say that the above course are accredited in Malta. Claudioalv (talk) 23:43, 7 April 2016 (UTC)


 * no, in response to the precise question asked in the RfC question.   The RfC question, the existing content, and Claudioalv's overwhelming flood of comments on this page have been directed to the notion of "accreditation" which is a complex thing per DGG's comments here and especially here and my own remarks here.  In the version away below I have just steered around this notion as much as possible as we have no high-quality, independent sources discussing it, and just reported what primary sources actually say. With respect to the heart of the question, my answer is "yes"  - I bring in the swiss and malta governmental authorizations, as it were. Jytdog (talk) 18:37, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Moving to archive; no consensus. With Vanjagenije's  consent per this. Jytdog (talk) 15:06, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 3 May 2016
I very strongly suggest that the Accreditation section be removed. Because: It ignores that the European Graduate School is accredited by the Maltese Government (an EU government) and the Swiss canton of Valaise. It talks only about the USA, even though the school has nothing to do with the USA. The information "The EGS lacks academic accreditation from an accrediting agency that is recognized by the U.S. Council for Higher Education Accreditation." is completely incorrect. The CHEA recognizes the Maltese National Commission for Further and Higher Education (NCFHE) It refers to lists by US states that are either defunct or, as in the case of Texas, confused (the Texas list makes no reference to Maltese accreditation). In its current form this section is offensive to graduates of the European Graduate School as it suggests that their degrees are less that legitimate. Murtagh1585 (talk) 14:29, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Murtagh1585 (talk) 14:29, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Unlikely to happen without having obtained consensus first. Jytdog (talk) 15:08, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * . Needs consensus first. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 18:08, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 5 May 2016
For external links, the videos of European Graduate School seminars and lectures should be added. These demonstrate explicitly, for good or for bad, what happens at EGS. They are also a hugely valuable source of contemporary continental philosophy material in their own right. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/user/egsvideo -- Murtagh1585 (talk) 02:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:01, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Faculty
This list is very problematic and the references seem to consist of casual mentions that don't prove that professor X or Y actually was a member of the faculty. For instance, Philippe Beck seems to have given a lecture there--but that website (NOT reliable printed source discussing the subject in any depth) does not say he was a faculty member. Drmies (talk) 01:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * He is on the schools faculty listing though, but I'm not sure that's a reliable source in this case. Also, Carl Mitcham is listed, with the school as source, but that link is gone. And Jean Baudrillard is dead, since 2007. --OpenFuture (talk) 06:12, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * It certainly is not: their definition of "faculty" as far as I can tell includes people who give very occasional guest lectures (this based on following through some of the earlier links and discussions here). I don't think we should take the school's word at face value for anything. Guy (Help!) 13:28, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * If this was unprotected, it could, I think, be gutted to just a couple of sentences. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi  13:37, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you mean the whole article could be "gutted", or just the faculty section? DrChrissy (talk) 13:46, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Well; if not 'gutted' as such, if the self-reliant sourcing (e.g.), promo-sourcing (e.g.), non-existant-sourcing (e.g.) and misleading sources (e.g.) were removed, it would be far slender than in it's present condition. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi  14:19, 26 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I think we could easily form a consensus to remove those identified by Fortuna above, since this is a bog standard sourcing issue. Guy (Help!) 04:29, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Is it worth sticking an request up? (Re. my suggestion above) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi (talk • contribs) 16:11, 28 March 2016
 * Yes, the only question is whether to remove all and then request re-insertion by consensus on an individual basis, or whether to remove a list agreed here. Guy (Help!) 10:16, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request
Per discussion above: Remove the section titled Faculty pending individual review of entries and sourcing, due to serious verifiability issues as noted. Guy (Help!) 10:01, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:54, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Edit request
Please replace the current "accreditation" section with the following:


 * Licenses and recognition

EGS is licensed as a university in Malta and is recognized in the Swiss canton where it operates, but is not recognized by the Swiss University Conference, the main regulatory body for universities in Switzerland. In the US, the State of Texas includes the European Graduate School on its published list of institutions that issue "fraudulent or substandard degrees" and notes that it is illegal to use an EGS degree to obtain employment within the state.

Support comes from DGG here who said "exactly right". JzG/Guy was OK with this except that he wanted to include Maine per this. A few single purpose accounts advocating for EGS have commented (for example Claudioav here said they are 95% OK but wants this to explicitly say "accredited") and others of them want a lot more detail.

I think the community is pretty sick of this, and this a good faith effort to thread the needle here.

Please implement. Jytdog (talk) 14:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I am fine with the word "license" for Malta. Thanks for your effort. Claudioalv (talk) 16:06, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I support this. SJK (talk) 09:01, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello - Before implementing the text above, there are two issues that should still be resolved:

1. The language should reflect that the EGS is still present on Maine's published list of degree mills as well. The case presented above that the Maine list is no longer valid is less than airtight. The list clearly remains on a publicly available government website, and there is no text on that site saying that the list is no longer valid. I'd propose adding "The State of Maine includes the EGS on a "List of Non-Accredited Post-Secondary Schools" that is available on the website of the state Department of Education"

2. The Swiss Canton of Valais website warrants a closer look. The claimed level of accreditation does not actually seem to be supported by its text. See. The language on this site indicates that the EGS is one of "three recognized by the Canton of Valais international private schools at tertiary level offer in the hotel industry, Media and Communication Sciences and Arts, Health and Society, Bachelor and Master courses." This is significant because it suggests the EGS' Canton level accreditation is specific to only a certain program (Media and Communication) and only at the Bachelor and Masters level. The EGS purports to issue PhDs in Philosophy though - a subject and a degree level that it does not appear to be approved for on the Canton's website. Perhaps instead it should read:

"The EGS is recognized to offer Bachelor's and Master's level instruction in Media and Communication Sciences and Arts, Health and Society by the Swiss Canton of Valais" Kizezs (talk) 16:25, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * You are discussing things here in an incredibly sloppy way. The proposed content does not mention accreditation.  And for the fourth time I point you to the discussion above.  I will just restate it here. The current Maine page is here: http://www.maine.gov/doe/highered/nonaccredited/index.html and it says


 * "A link to view a list of post-secondary schools that are not accredited may be found below."
 * "By its very nature this list will never be complete or all-encompassing since existing non-accredited colleges and degree mills disappear, and new ones are created, at a rapid rate--especially on the Internet. Please investigate all possible resources when choosing a school and report any perceived inaccuracies to Higher Education Maine Department of Education by phone 207-624-6607 or email Laurie Halligan at laurie.halligan@maine.gov."


 * "List of Non-Accredited Post-Secondary Schools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-accredited_universities."
 * "To learn more about U.S. schools that are accredited, visit our National & Regional Accreditors page, http://www.maine.gov/doe/highered/resources/accreditors.html."


 * The old Maine page is here: https://web.archive.org/web/20131003165135/http://www.maine.gov/doe/highered/nonaccredited/index.html and used to say:
 * "The Maine Department of Education has compiled a list of post-secondary schools that are not accredited. The Department updates this list regularly, but by its very nature the list will never be complete or all-encompassing. Existing non-accredited colleges and degree mills disappear, and new ones are created, at a rapid rate--especially on the Internet. Please investigate all possible resources when choosing a school. You will find many links to helpful resources within the pages of this website."


 * They no longer maintain their list This is as obvious as the day is long. I am not going to respond to you further, as per your contribs your account is a WP:SPA and all you are doing is making bad arguments against EGS; you are as disruptive as the SPA accounts here advocating for EGS, and your arguments are as illegitimate as theirs as they are just as not-based-on-policies-and-guidelines as theirs. Jytdog (talk) 20:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Except it ISN'T as obvious as the day is long. YOU are making that assertion by your own inference - an inference that you cannot link to any specific source. I don't really care if you respond to me or not btw. I'm simply pointing out for the record that you're own proposed resolution is deeply faulty per Wikipedia's own sourcing standards, and that it supplants specific and credible sourced information with (1) your own unsourced inferences about the Maine website and (2) a number of ambiguous weasel words about the exact nature of its Canton-level accreditation. Here is what the live Maine website currently says on its header: "List of Non-Accredited Post-Secondary Schools - The Maine Department of Education has compiled the following list of post-secondary schools that are not accredited. The Department updates this list regularly, but non-accredited schools change frequently. Please conduct individual research before choosing a post-secondary institution." Do with that information what you will. Kizezs (talk) 20:28, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Alternative

I'd like to propose the alternative below, which more accurately reflects what the source links say and which includes a neutral representation of the still-active Maine website.


 * Accreditation and Licensing

The European Graduate School possesses a 5 year license to operate as a university in Malta, expiring in 2021. It is recognized as an "accredited school at the tertiary level" by the Swiss canton of Valais, which authorizes it to provide classes in "Media and Communication Sciences and Arts, Health and Society" at the Bachelor's and Master's level. The EGS is not recognized by the Swiss University Conference, the main regulatory body for universities in Switzerland. In the United States, the State of Texas includes the European Graduate School on its published list of institutions that issue "fraudulent or substandard degrees" and notes that it is illegal to use an EGS degree to obtain employment within the state. The EGS appears on a "List of Non-Accredited Post-Secondary Schools" published by the Maine state Department of Education.

- Kizezs (talk) 20:46, 1 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Admins please note that Kizezs is a SPA account and is disrupting an edit request I have been carefully building consensus around for over a month now. Instead of working for consensus they are just advocating a one-sided view that is never going to get consensus here. This is not what we do here. Jytdog (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Admins please note that I've tried multiple times above to engage User:Jytdog charitably, including pointing his attention to relevant sources that address the accreditation issues with this institution. Instead of discussing them constructively, he has responded almost uniformly by engaging in an increasingly tendentious form of wiki-lawyering and an outright dismissive approach to anything that differs with his personal opinion. This includes a very strained reading of what constitutes a valid source, including the outright dismissal of a live and active government accrediting website because of the way he draws an unstated inference from a link on a different page of that website. You may find in the comments above that he has also taken a similar approach when engaging pro-EGS editors in this same discussion, even though they are advocating a directly opposite position than my own. At minimum, he seems to be in breach of the spirit of Assume_good_faith + WP:BITE, and a number of his dismissive comments above show the characteristics of attempting to exert WP:OWN over not simply this article but even the course of the discussion that is taking place on the talk page. I offered the proposed text above as a good-faith attempt that satisfies WP's sourcing policies with reputable and accurately reflected citations. Instead of responding to that proposal or addressing my rationale for their inclusion, he has instead opted to attack me personally on account of my own admittedly limited stake as an active editor on WP. While I do not expect to ever convince a bad-faith editor, as Jytdog seems to be, I would only urge you to investigate those citations on your own by following the relevant links and you will see that they are accurately presented from reputable sources and in a neutral point of view. Kizezs (talk) 21:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't want to get into any dispute about how individuals (whether yourself or Jytdog or others) are behaving, so I'll just limit my comments to why I don't think citing the Maine page is appropriate. The Texas and Maine lists are very different. The Texas list is authorised under Texas law, it has legal consequences in Texas, and there is a Texas government agency (the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board) with the legal duty to review it at regular intervals and ensure that entities which should not be listed there are removed. By contrast, the Maine list has – as far as I can tell – no legal status, it is not specifically established under the law of Maine, it has no legal consequences, and the Maine Department of Education has no official process to keep it up to date. The fact that they have removed direct access to it from the navigation structure of their website is a sign they are no longer maintaining it (Jytdog's arguments are correct here). Given it obviously predates the granting of a Malta university license to EGS, and it doesn't appear that the Maine DOE has any future plans to update it, I think it is unfair to EGS to cite it. Now, the Texas list has a body with a duty to keep it up to date, and I think what the "status under review" part likely means is that EGS is arguing that the listing should be removed or qualified given their Maltese license, and the THECB is currently deciding whether to accept or reject EGS' argument. As a general rule, I don't think US state departments of education are a reliable source for the accreditation of non-US educational institutions, so as a general rule I'm opposed to citing either the Maine or Texas sources; however, the fact that the Texas list is legally binding under Texas state law convinces me that the Texas list is an exception to that general rule, whereas we can't say the same for the Maine list. SJK (talk) 09:46, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you SJK. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on a few things. 1. Why should Malta's license be given precedence over Maine for a school that is located in Switzerland? Wouldn't the same line of reasoning apply there - as a general rule should we be using non-Swiss accreditation to assess a Swiss institution simply because it claims to have it from some other country? 2. What does the Malta license actually cover? This is unclear from the sources provided but it looks like it is a temporary 5 year license of the type that would be granted to offer a single "study abroad" class - not a permanent accreditation of the whole school. 3. What do you make of the Swiss canton's website stating something very different than what the EGS claims? The Canton website (linked above) says they are granted permission to issue degrees in Media & Communication studies up to the Master's level, but not the PhD in Philosophy that they actually grant. Kizezs (talk) 12:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Why should Malta's license be given precedence over Maine for a school that is located in Switzerland? – Both Texas and Malta have engaged in legal acts. Malta has issued EGS as license which is an official act under Maltese law (see Malta Education Act section 65(c)). Texas has listed EGS on a list which is established under Texas law (Texas Educational Code, Chapter 61, Section 61.302). As far as I am aware, the Maine list has no legal force, unlike Malta and Texas. Furthermore, the Maltese license explicitly refers to an EGS address in Malta (Fort St Elmo, Valletta) – by choosing to maintain a physical presence in Malta, EGS has voluntarily submitted to the sovereignity of Malta and Maltese law – it is one thing to regulate an institution which chooses to operate on one's territory, another to claim to regulate an institution which has no facilities on one's sovereign territory and whose facilities are located on another continent – I'm not aware of any EGS office in Maine or Texas. If you are aware of any provision under Maine law which gives their list legal authority (in the sense in which the Malta and Texas lists do), please let us know.
 * as a general rule should we be using non-Swiss accreditation to assess a Swiss institution simply because it claims to have it from some other country? – well, it's clear that at least part of EGS doesn't just claim to have a Maltese university license, it really does have one. Also, I understand EGS actually has a physical presence in Malta (I don't know the details of that presence, such as whether it is permanent or only for a few weeks a year, whether they own or lease real estate, whether they have staff stationed there permanently or not) – but it's clear they have some degree of physical presence there, whatever its exact details. As an institution licensed under Maltese law and with some physical presence in Malta, EGS is no longer a purely Swiss institution, but it is now partially a Maltese one.
 * What does the Malta license actually cover? This is unclear from the sources provided... Its exact scope isn't clear from the evidence available to us, but if we don't know its exact scope we don't need to discuss what the exact scope is. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, and when there are issues unaddressed by reliable sources, we simply have to leave them open and unanswered, rather than speculating on them. The link is sufficient to justify the text "EGS is licensed as a university in Malta". Your speculations on exactly what that may or may not mean are interesting, but we can't discuss them unless and until a reliable source discusses them. We can draw reasonably obvious and straightforward conclusions from reliable sources on our own steam (i.e. the products of basic reading comprehension); but any sort of deeper exegesis of what they really mean or what they are really saying (when that isn't immediately obvious) is a form of original research in the absence of a reliable source doing that exegesis for us.
 * What do you make of the Swiss canton's website stating something very different than what the EGS claims? – all Jytdog's proposed text says is that EGS is "recognized in the Swiss canton where it operates", and that text is an obvious interpretation of the Canton of Valais' website. We don't need to determine what the exact parameters of that recognition is – all we need to do is note it exists. If there are apparent contradictions between what EGS' website claims and what the Canton of Valais says, it's not Wikipedia's role to analyse them – that would be an impermissible synthesis of sources. If you can find a reliable source which discusses this apparent contradiction, then it can be mentioned in the article; until then, no. You are suggesting, based on your reading of the Canton's website in conjunction with EGS' website, that they are acting outside of the scope of the Canton's recognition of them. You might be right, you might be wrong, I don't think we have enough information to answer that question either way – and unless and until a reliable source answers that question, it's not Wikipedia's job to do so.
 * I think Jytdog's text is better because it quickly summarises the chief points which each source gives, and the reader who wants to investigate more can read those sources; I don't think the additional detail which your version has gives any value over Jytdog's. SJK (talk) 14:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I think Jytdog's text is better because it quickly summarises the chief points which each source gives, and the reader who wants to investigate more can read those sources; I don't think the additional detail which your version has gives any value over Jytdog's. SJK (talk) 14:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

- This section of Maine's statutes gives them the legal authority to publish such their list and in fact requires them to do so:

''10804. Consumer protection The department shall provide, via publicly accessible sites on the Internet, information to protect students, businesses and others from persons, institutions or entities that issue, manufacture or use false academic degrees. This information must include the names of known state, national and international diploma mills, degree mills, accreditation mills and substandard schools or institutions of higher education.''

Kizezs (talk) 15:40, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

I also located additional information about their legal status in Malta. The Maltese approval did NOT contain approval to issue degrees. Rather it is a 5 year license to offer 8 specific graduate courses in Malta. Their description, operational dates, and expiration dates are all listed at this link and their policy of accrediting specific courses from foreign universities is explained in detail here. This is more than sufficient information from a reliable source to warrant specific information clarifying its Maltese accreditation status beyond what Jytdog's proposed edit contains. Kizezs (talk) 16:09, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I do agree with SJK. THECB is currently deciding whether to accept or reject EGS' argument (the main reason was that the Maltese license/accreditation was not on their record). About Maine, Angel Martinez Loredo, State of Maine Department of Education Higher Education Specialist, replied the office I am working with that "The Maine Department of Education does not mantain the list of unaccredited postsecondary institutions. That list belongs to and mantain by Wikipedia. We only link to it." In fact, before that official reply, I was looking at the current Maine list, but after that I just google it and it does appear the following http://www.maine.gov/doe/highered/ which does reflect their official statement. Therefore, Jytdos is correct about Maine. I do disagree with him about Texas not because I am contesting what THECB says, but because EGS is a school located in Switzerland and in Malta, so applicants go to study in Europe and it is reasonable to say that they will not look for a job in Texas or in the U.S. based on their EGS degrees. I graduated at University of Pisa and I do not find any argument based on that University accreditation in the U.S.. This a University in Italy (like EGS is a University in Malta) and students like me were aware that their degrees were italian degrees and not U.S. (or Texas) degrees, so they were good to find a job in Italy (and not in the U.S.). Moreover, finding a job in the U.S. by possessing a E.U. degree is quite unlikely. For example, every European professional who joins the U.S. has to apply before for a University in the U.S. (it means that their european degrees are not enough to work) or has to have worked some years in his/her home country or has to work in a international organization with connections in the U.S. to have a temporary Visa. Claudioalv (talk) 16:20, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

However, I am fine with Jztdog proposal. When we hear back from Texas I am updating it here. Claudioalv (talk) 16:28, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Claudioalv - Maine is required to maintain and publish a list of known unaccredited institutions on its website by statute. You may view that statute here. Self-reported and unverifiable email correspondence with an administrator does not qualify as a Reliable Source. Your reported conversation also appears to refer to their link to the Wikipedia list, not the separate list that they maintain on their own website. If using an EGS degree to get a U.S. job is so unlikely, then why such hostility to noting the sourced fact that it is illegal to use an EGS degree in several states? Maine also has a similar statute to Texas that makes doing so illegal and the definitions of that statute govern the aforementioned list. Kizezs (talk) 16:33, 2 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The fact that Maine is required to mantain and publish a list does not mean they do publish and mantain a list. If they did it so, the current website does show up any list is published and they refer to Wikipedia about such list. There is no hostility, I have just suggested that the article should reflect the sources. I do think that an article about a school located in Europe should not built around what Texas says, but it is my personal opinion and of course I do accept different opinions. However it seems to me you are too much expert here to be a SPA who has never edited any article. How do you know about this topic? have you got any connection with user"Guy"? Should you have to disclose something?Claudioalv (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Proposed Version 3
I rewrote a proposed revision to reflect (1) a more specific description of the Swiss canton accreditation quoting directly from their website, (2) a more accurate description of the Maltese course-level accreditation, sourced to the government of Malta's published list specifying what this entails, and (3) the Maine list, updated with a reference to its establishment by statute and the legal status of institutions so designated. This version reflects greater precision on its Swiss and Maltese accreditations and licenses actually say, sourced to the most reliable information we have on the subject. It also satisfies the objection above about whether Maine's list has legal status similar to Texas (it does per the cited statutes).


 * Accreditation and Licensing

The European Graduate School is recognized as an "accredited school at the tertiary level" by the Swiss canton of Valais. The EGS is not recognized by the Swiss University Conference, the main regulatory body for universities in Switzerland. In 2015 the EGS obtained a five-year license to offer eight Master's and PhD level classes in Malta, subject to consideration for renewal in 2021 by the National Commission for Further and Higher Education. In the United States, the State of Texas includes the European Graduate School on its published list of institutions that issue "fraudulent or substandard degrees" and notes that it is illegal to use an EGS degree to obtain employment within the state. Maine similarly includes the EGS on a statutory "List of Non-Accredited Post-Secondary Schools," making it illegal to use an EGS degree to obtain employment in the state.

-- 98.169.33.195 (talk) 18:42, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Selling EU accreditation for ‘colleges’ that can’t get it elsewhere
"...lowering accreditation standards and allowing all kinds of odd commercial colleges which can’t get accreditation anywhere else in the European Union to come to Malta and get accreditation here, which they can then use as a selling-point." Is this the name of the game? Theroadislong (talk) 21:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * before making this baseless assumptions, you should provide them by sources. Moreover EGS has the status of University and not college.Claudioalv (talk) 23:00, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * They were talking about the last paragraph of that source, claudioalv. I have seen that too; it is a blog so not high quality and I wouldn't bring it or use it. Jytdog (talk) 23:07, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I have seen that, I do agree with you that a blog can not be a rialiable source. I do think that EGS does not merit a status of a school which confers diploma mill, just because Texas says that or sells degrees. EGS was implicated in very notable projects, also mentioned on Wiki, like Occupy Wall Street. In fact, Occupy Wall Street was one of the projects started by EGS students during the course of their study https://medium.com/the-workshop/the-school-for-social-hackers-b3797caf3a7b#.yrymb2mxd . Also a recent and notable EGS student was Pablo Iglesias, leader of Podemos                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podemos_(Spanish_political_party) who has been at the forefront of the anti-austerity movement in Spain and across Europe. These are just two examples which should be enough to say that this is serious school, a school that based on its location (Malta) should not be discriminated. Of course this my opinion and everyone is welcome to say his/her opinion, but it is unfair to cite a couple of line in a unknown blog to assume that the school does sell degree. This is not the real world.  Claudioalv (talk) 23:18, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I thought it was from the Times Of Malta. Theroadislong (talk) 07:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)