Talk:European mouflon

Merger proposal
The Italian wikipedia page Ovis musimon is about the same topic but it is categorized as a different one. This prevents me to add a link from this article to the Italian article (and to any other language's article that is linked to the Italian article). I am not sure how to fix this. 37.109.33.109 (talk) 08:51, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Conservation status
Should I classify the European mouflon as a domestic animal or a wild animal? (talk) 19:43, 20 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure they're wild. Bermicourt (talk) 21:14, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Well it seems to me that the European mouflon is a feral descendant of ancient domestic sheep, however I noticed its scientific name has changed to Ovis aries musimon. Dennis the mennis (talk) 08:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

The reason why the European mouflon is a descendant of domestic sheep is because its ancestors were brought to Corsica and Sardinia by the Neolithic people therefore it should be classified as a feral sheep. Dennis the mennis (talk) 08:15, 30 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I think what would help is a sentence or two describing its ancestry and origins as understood by authoritative sources as well as a description of its distribution today. AFAICS it is mainly wild and lives 'free' except where it is kept on game reserves for hunting purposes. I'm not aware of it being kept commercially i.e. for meat, wool or milk, but if it is then that should be mentioned too. In other words, what would be good is a 'thick description'. I'd offer to help, but I'm rather tied up in university studies right now. Bermicourt (talk) 13:35, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

I haven't found any kind of source that refers to European mouflons as feral descendants of domestic sheep yet. Dennis the mennis (talk) 16:40, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Relationship to domestic sheep
The article on domestic sheep says they are thought to be descended from mouflon. The article on mouflon says tthey are thought to be descended from domestic sheep. They can't both be right. If there is genuine uncertainty this should be reflected in both articles. Stub Mandrel (talk) 07:10, 18 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The article on domestic sheep actually says "most likely descended from the wild mouflon"; the article on mouflon states that "it is thought to be the ancestor of all modern domestic sheep breeds"; they are saying the same thing. The phrase "thought to be" indicates there is a degree of uncertainty and the article on domestic sheep makes plain that the mouflon-sheep relationship is "unclear" and so the line of descent is a "hypothesis". So I'm not sure what the issue is. Bermicourt (talk) 07:26, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Subspecies
Clearly it is a subspecies of domestic sheep (O. aries), as I have already provided a citation from the American Society of Mammalolgists for this information. I don't know why it keeps being reverted. 152.0.253.67 (talk) 21:34, 7 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Your source doesn't make that clear. However, the following sources suggest otherwise:
 * "The Mouflon is a small wild sheep ... closely related to the Asiatic Mouflon which is the progenitor of all domesticated sheep. This species has been introduced as a wild animal in many European countries." Santiago-Moreno et al. (2000). p. 423. here.
 * "During introductions of mouflon to continental Europe from native Corsican and Sardinian populations (Bon, Cugnasse et al., 1991), some crossing occurred with domestic and wild sheep" (Turcke & Schmincke, 1965; Uloth, 1972; Cugnasse, 1994). here. Bermicourt (talk) 07:19, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Both the sources you linked are older than the one linked above. The IUCN assessment of the mouflon notably did not include the European mouflon, as it considers it a ...(domestic) sheep haplogroup..., but considers the mouflons on Cyprus to be truly wild, and not feral O. aries. I say revert it to a subspecies of O. aries.74.68.117.176 (talk) 21:38, 24 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't have an issue with your sources, but the point is that the sources don't agree and more recent ones are not necessarily more decisive than older (but not very much older) ones. Bermicourt (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As a general rule, the more recent a source is, the better, since it usually builds off of previous sources. J0ngM0ng (talk) 18:04, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It is quite dangerous to assume that newness has anything to do with accuracy or authenticity; that is part of the myth of progress. No, any new source must stand on its own merits and, if it brings a new line of argument, it must bring convincing evidence. Bermicourt (talk) 14:19, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Issue resolution
I've posted a 'dispute' tag because the issue of the relationship between the European mouflon and the domestic sheep. Editors unfamiliar with such tags may wish to read guidance about removing maintenance templates, but essentially the tag should only be removed once consensus is achieved. My sense is that this should be achievable with wider input from those familiar with the subject, so I will flag this up at WikiProject Mammals. Bermicourt (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Looking forward to ending this. J0ngM0ng (talk) 18:04, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You've just removed the tag without a consensus being achieved. Please replace it. Bermicourt (talk) 17:00, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I've done it myself. Now let's work on resolving this. Bermicourt (talk) 14:02, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

I've rechecked the sources we've both quoted and they seem to be in agreement. According to the IUCN website, Ovis aries is the domestic sheep and Ovies gmelini is the Mouflon. The most complete and up-to-date description appear to be the Taxonomic Notes on the Ovies gmelini page which inter alia make the following points: So where does that leave us? Noting that there are differing views among modern sources and ambiguities even in the IUCN online data, I'd suggest the following key points.
 * that there are 3-5 wild subspecies of Mouflon, the IUCN recognising only three: the Armenian Mouflon (O. g. gmelini), the Esfahan Mouflon (O. g. isphahanica) and the Laristan Mouflon (O. g. laristanica). Comment: for brevity I'll call this group the Oriental Mouflon although it's not a term used by the IUCN.
 * that according to Gentry et al. (1996 and 2004) and Gippoliti and Amori (2004), the Cyprus Mouflon should be seen as a subspecies of domestic sheep (O. aries) and "not as a subspecies of the wild taxon O. gmelini" [i.e. Oriental Mouflon]. This tallies with your link to Gentry et al. (2004) which says that O. aries is the "domestic form of O. gmelini introduced throughout Europe and the Mediterranean known as Mouflon or European Mouflon".
 * however more recent findings show that the Cyprus Mouflon (O. g. ophion) has a "high genetic distance" from domestic sheep "including European, Corsican and Sardinian mouflons..."
 * that Hiendleder et al. (2002) suggest "that likely candidates for truly wild ancestors of domestic sheep are mouflon populations found in Turkey and W Iran..." [i.e. Oriental Mouflon]
 * that the Corsican, Sardinian and Cyprus mouflon [i.e. European Mouflon] are feral descendants of primitive domestic stock and are "clearly distinct from modern domestic and feral sheep."
 * Firstly, the sister article on the Mouflon appears to line up with the IUCN taxonomy on the mouflon as found in Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. [i.e. the Oriental Mouflon].
 * Secondly, this article aligns more with the IUCN page entitled "Domestic Sheep", but which actually only refers to the small, isolated wild populations of O. aries on Corsica and Sardinia . It would seem to be these mouflon that have been introduced into much of Europe since the 18th century. [i.e. European Mouflon].
 * Thirdly, the Cyprus Mouflon is closer to the Oriental Mouflon than the European Mouflon but has its own taxon anyway.

Bearing all that in mind, it is unsurprising that there is confusion because there are two groups of mouflon: the Oriental Mouflon O. gmelini with 3-5 subspecies, which is the ancestor of the domestic sheep and found in eastern Europe and the Middle East; and the European Mouflon, a subspecies of O. aries (presumably O. a. musimon as per German Wiki) which is a feral descendant of the primitive [not modern] domestic sheep and includes the Corsican and Sardinian flocks that appear to have been its origins. My sense is that if the lede were to explain that the European Mouflon is a feral subspecies of the primitive domestic sheep and some text were added to clarify the difference between this and the Oriental Mouflon, both here and at that page, that would largely clear up the issue. Obviously I won't use the term Oriental Mouflon in the articles as that's my shorthand.

If others agree, I'm happy to make the initial changes and remove the 'disputed' tag. Bermicourt (talk) 15:26, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Apologies, I have just seen this since the article isn't on my watchlist. But yeah, brilliant analysis. Apologies for being disruptive, I thought you would get the point sooner about this taxonomic issue. I'd say it's resolved. Some clarification is needed on the lede. J0ngM0ng (talk) 13:03, 15 September 2021 (UTC)