Talk:European winter storms of 2009–2010/Archive 1

Deletion
90% of this article is ONLY about the UK, NOT Europe!

--- see also 'UK section' below ---

Germany (my residence, if i may also add) was only metioned a few times, probably due to the fact that the weather in Germany is NOT so uncommon at the time!

France was mentioned just twice & Holland only once!

.... Peace!

I think this article should be either deleted or at least re-titled to "UK winter storms of 2009-10"... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.100.170.83 (talk) 15:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it should be deleted, althogh it does need expansion :-)--Jordan353 (talk) 19:19, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It should be covered in the article Winter storms of 2009–10, where there is already a section for it. AnemoneProjectors (talk) 20:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * This article is totally out of control. It's so big it needs an entire Internet all to itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.23.12.220 (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Heavy snow events in London are rare. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bgtgwazi (talk • contribs) 20:52, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * If you disagree with the deletion, all you have to do is remove the proposed deletion warning. It'll probably go to AFD after that though. But it will definitely be deleted if the template that's there now is left there. AnemoneProjectors (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * ok, I expanded it with some stuff I added to Winter storms of 2009-10 yesterday. Heavy snowfall in London is unusual, but if this article is to be kept it would need to be expanded. there was further snow overnight on Friday 18 and Saturday 19 December, and more is expected over the weekend. Also, several Channel tunnel trains have broken down as a result of the extremely cold weather, and I've just heard on BBC News that it could get as low as -20 in places overnight tonight. This is something that could definitely be notable, but as I said before, it would need to be expanded. Incidentally I did think of creating this yesterday, but wasn't sure it was notable at that stage. Any thoughts TheRetroGuy (talk) 22:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Have now expanded this a bit and it's a lot more informative than it was. Could do with more work though. TheRetroGuy (talk) 23:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Since being expanded I quite like it! Oh and it's snowing right now outside my window! AnemoneProjectors (talk) 23:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'll keep an eye on this for a few days and see how it develops. Have to say where I live has been lucky so far. Just a bit of snow Thursday, although it's quite icy. TheRetroGuy (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

foul language
There is foul language on the right side of the page near the word lowest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Machn (talk • contribs) 18:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal
If this doesn't become notable enough, but the article is expanded, then one solution could be to merge it with Winter storms of 2009-10. TheRetroGuy (talk) 22:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * At the moment, I think it would be better to merge it. Newly created stubs can usually be shorterned down once you take the long-winded newsy language out. If there are more notable events, then perhaps it should be split from the main winter storm 09/10 article. I'd leave it as it is for a week or so before merging.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  00:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * On another note, if the article were to include the similar problems that are occuring across western Europe this past week then I think it would have a large-enough coverage to be a stand-alone article.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  00:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, if anyone else wants to get started on this I've found a few useful articles that talk about conditions in Western Europe. Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 01:05, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think there's just enough information now for it to be split from the list article.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  16:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Snow in Western Europe
A few useful references for the events in Western Europe


 * Snowy Europe cold snap brings transport chaos AFP, 18 December 2009


 * Snow causes problems in Europe, Radio Netherlands, 18 December 2009


 * Serie A: All Italian matches hit by bad weather, ESPN, 19 December 2009


 * Europe in a wintry mess, Edmonton Sun, 19 December 2009


 * Ho ho, or oh no? From England to Poland, Europe gets gift of snow on Friday before Christmas, Canadian Press, 19 December 2009


 * I agree this article should be renamed and expanded into "December 2009 European snowfall" IJA (talk) 14:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Have now expanded article content and moved to December 2009 European snowfall. TheRetroGuy (talk) 15:48, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Cheers because the snowfall has affected big parts of Europe not just the UK. I suggest a part in the article about the Eurostar trains and the problems with them being stuck in the tunnels and consequently cancellation of the service IJA (talk) 16:21, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree a section on the Eurostar is a good idea. There's likely to be more news on this in the coming days, and there were a lot of complaints from people stuck in the tunnel about the length they were there and the quality of help they received. TheRetroGuy (talk) 16:40, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added news for 4 more European countries, Austria, Kosovo, Montenegro and Serbia. How many sources have you got on Eurostar? BBC has a lot on it IJA (talk) 17:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks good. The main references I used for the Eurostar paragraph were;



But I notice there's now a couple of others that look like they could be quite useful.

Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 17:48, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thousands stranded by Eurostar as chief executive 'cannot guarantee' when service will resume, Daily Telegraph, 20 December 2009
 * Eurostar suspends services, probes 6 train failures, Reuters, 20 December 2009

Indeed UK got rare deep snow (5-20 cm), causing trouble in traffic etc.; but on the other hand, what this week happened in northern Italy, northern Spain, south France and the Balkans can only be called snow-chaos. Maybe this page should be expanded a bit about those places, too. Online snow depth map might provide some help. - oh the link isn't direct, in schneehöhen click 'europa' 77.38.44.85 (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll try and make a replica of that map with public doman sources if I can find the time. I probably won't do it down to that level of detail i.e. snow depth. More likely it'll just be places that had snow and places that didn't. Would be rather useful to show the extend of the snowfall.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  22:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Front page
The front page says "A heavy snow"... "Snow" is uncountable, and shouldn't have the word "a" attached to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.30.129 (talk) 20:13, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You might want to mention this at Wikipedia talk:In the news and someone can review the sentence. Thanks TheRetroGuy (talk) 20:33, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  19:51, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Title
Wouldn't it be better to have "winter storm" instead of "snowfall" in the title? The unusually low temperatures are at least as important in the disruption as the actual snow. Physchim62 (talk) 21:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Low temperatures don't really spring to mind in terms of storms. I often consider storms as being cyclonic with high winds and just a couple of weather fronts happening over the course of 1-2 days.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  22:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Only just discovered this article. I agree with you. I don't like "storms" in the title, which suggests to me that damaging winds are the most notable feature of the winter. It's cold and snow that are making this winter unusual, not wind. By analogy with the articles on the 1962-3 and 1946-7 British winters, I would prefer "European winter of 2009–10". JH (talk page) 21:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I would agree that storm suggests strong wind is a main factor in the weather, and that hasn't been the case here. But looking at other articles such as Winter storm or Severe weather terminology (United States) suggests a winter storm is a precipitation event that may or may not include strong winds.


 * However what has taken place in Europe is an ongoing cold period, as well as a series of "winter storms".--82.69.17.150 (talk) 17:08, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Abandoned wikinews items...
There at least 2 abandoned Wikinews items concerning the UK impact, some of that information should probably be carefully merged into this article. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:51, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree this would be useful. Do you have a link to these articles? TheRetroGuy (talk) 14:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries, found them via the Current Events portal. Could be worth linking to them from this article, although one article describes Monday as being the second day of heavy snow which is slightly inaccurate since it all started last week. It's the second working day to suffer disruption though so I guess it's right in that sense. TheRetroGuy (talk) 16:41, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Snowfalls_cause_disruption_in_UK was the one I was thinking off, although it's largely drawn from BBC reporting. It's tagged as abandoned, So you need to extract anything useful like the sources list ASAP. :( Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

ok got them. Thanks TheRetroGuy (talk) 18:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Deaths need to be updated
The infobox now says 23 dead but 29 have frozen to death in Poland alone. -- can  dle &bull; wicke  18:53, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I changed it to at least 23 as they're the ones referenced. There are probably many others. TheRetroGuy (talk) 19:04, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 29 in Poland, 3 in Bosnia, 2 in Austria and 1 in Kosovo = 35 so we should say at least 35 IJA (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 1 in Germany and 1 in France (a Polish man died in France, so don't get that confused with Poland), therefore at least 37.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  21:52, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm gonna go with the BBC's "More than 80 dead" estimate to make it easier to put a tag on the number of deaths. It's easier than tracking several references and incidences and totalling it ourselves.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  21:59, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Now updated to 122. Totnesmartin (talk) 20:03, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Northern Europe
FYI we had it in Sweden too, but it is just like "winter coming" here: a little extra, one week early, and a little colder than usual. ... said: Rursus ( m bork³ ) 20:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * For the central-to-northern UK it's also only unusual in its timing, and in the fact that it was powdery snow (well, it was here) rather than the more normal wet stuff. But no particularly significant disruption; streets are passable with care. There seems to be a fair bit of economic impact though; with people already not particularly inclined to go shopping anyway, the snow's been enough to really encourage them to stay home. Not good for retailers! It would be nice if there was some mention of things like that (assuming that there's a citation available for it, of course). –Donal Fellows (talk) 16:47, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

White Christmas in the UK
Can someone explain why this is relevant to an article about extreme weather across the whole of Europe? The UK has already been mentioned in the article, so why does it matter? Even if it did snow on christmas day, this would surely be barely newsworthy, and almost certainly not notable enough for anything more than a couple of sentences in an article here, if that. On top of this, at the moment this section is little more than speculation or a weather forecast, and could be deleted per WP:Crystal. Jhbuk (talk) 18:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see much point in the section for an encyclopedia. Remove it all.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  18:36, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I wrote this section, but would have no objection to it being deleted if that's the consensus. I'd say leave it for a few days though. If the UK does get snow on Christmas Day then some of the information can be incorporated into the timeline. And a white Christmas in the UK is quite a rare event. TheRetroGuy (talk) 19:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * White Christmasses in the UK are quite a big deal, but I don't know about other countries. It seemed ok when this was just about the snow in the UK but now it's about Europe, maybe not. Snow on Christmas Day might be rare, but the snow doesn't know what day it is so really it doesn't matter that much that snow might fall on a specific day of the year. Surely it's no more rare than snow falling on the 24th or 26th. AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * If there is a white Christmas then it might do with a mention. Looks unlikely to happen anyway, so might as well remove it.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  22:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep It will be notable because it is a rare thing in Britain and Ireland. Also it is seen as a big cultural thing and if it does happen it will be the first time in 10 years. IJA (talk) 14:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The last white Christmas was in 2004. They are more common than you think.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  15:45, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I just think it is disproportionate to have a whole section on the possibility of there being a slight sprinkling of snow in one particular country, in an article about an event which has affected the whole of Europe and killed "at least 90 people". And, as I said, if it does happen, it shouldn't be in there until December 25th, as it is currently little more than speculation.  I live in the UK, and I know people make a big deal about it, but if it does happen, it will be forgotten about in a fortnight and is really not that significant. Jhbuk (talk) 16:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said before: if there is a white Christmas then we should mention (not a whole section though) as pressumably there will be a sub-section called "25 December" anyay. It's unlikely to happen anyway, so I'd go ahead and remove the entire section right now. If it turns out to be a bad day for the bookies then write it down, but don't speculate prior to the event.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  17:48, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It depends how "White Christmas" is defined - some official definitions are for snow to fall on the Met Office roof on Christmas Day. However, seeing as there is often snow right through the winter on many mountains in the north of the country, it doesn't seem surprising that it snows somewhere in the UK on Christmas Day a lot more often. It doesn't seem very notable to me. Halsteadk (talk) 18:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

As the section has now been deleted, I'm just keeping a copy of this for future reference. TheRetroGuy (talk) 18:24, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

White Christmas in Ireland & the UK
When Met Éireann the Met Office in Ireland and the United Kingdom warned of heavy snow on 15 December, bookmakers Ladbrokes and William Hill both shortened their odds that snow would fall on Christmas Day, after the biggest surge of bets on a White Christmas for ten years. However, forecasters predicted that although snowfall at Christmas was possible, it was unlikely. Paul Knightley, a forecaster for MeteoGroup UK, said the chances of snow were "probably less likely than likely", while Simon Keeling of Weather Online said "... as we head towards mid week, and Christmas, it does look as though mild air will have several attempts at breaking through the country. My feeling right now is that the mild air will not make much progress northwards Christmas Eve and Christmas Day which may bring sleet and snow for many, especially in the south." As of 22 December, Met Éireann and the Met Office forecast sleet for some parts of the British Isles on the night of Christmas Day. Some parts of Ireland may experience snow or sleet during Christmas Day. Snow is forecast for western Scotland and parts of Ireland on Christmas Eve with eastern Scotland and northern England forecast sleet.

Snow on 21st December
Reading the article I can't help feeling that the disruption due to the snow that fell late afternoon on the 21st in south-east England has been rather underplayed, as if it was merely Basingstoke and High Wycombe that were affected. This was also snow that fell at 3.30/4.00ish, not in the "evening". In reality, the M25 and large parts of the M3, M4, M40, M1 and M11 were brought to a standstill until late into the night, and many towns were completely gridlocked. It took me 2.5hrs to drive 1 mile in Croydon! Are there any better reports out there that could be referenced? I realise the article can only reference what is published but I was conscious at the time that the BBC etc didn't really fully report it. Halsteadk (talk) 18:11, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree here in West Yorkshire it was covered. It was snowing for ages on and off and it was around 10 centimetres deep. IJA (talk) 19:03, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've now added this information to the text. Hopefully some refs will become available. TheRetroGuy (talk) 20:30, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I sorry but I don't have a reference for this IJA (talk) 20:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Met office forecast
Found an interesting article, some of which I might try to work into the text of this. Apparently the Met Office had forecast a fairly mild winter, but like their now infamous prediction of a barbecue summer it doesn't seem to be happening. TheRetroGuy (talk) 14:08, 30 December 2009 (UTC)




 * It's very early days to be drawing any conclusions - winter has at least another 2 months to run. We need to wait until stats are compiled to show whether it did contradict the forecast. There is an awful lot in the above link that the Telegraph's attention seeking headline doesn't reveal. I think it would be more relevant to focus on how well (or how badly) the Met Office predicted the most disruptive snow events. Halsteadk (talk) 15:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * What may now be significant is that the Met Office has now revised its forecast saying that the rest of the winter is more likely to be colder than average. Halsteadk (talk) 15:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Winter storms of the world
Maybe this isn't notable but the same types of storms seem to be occurring across the world, not just Europe e.g. Beijing and North America. Coincidence? Simply south (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Could be worth mentioning somewhere in the article I think. According to an article from today's Times, it is being caused by a dramatic shift in the weather pattern that has occurred this winter. TheRetroGuy (talk) 23:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There does seem to be a lot of information about the affects of the event, so I would agree that some information on how it occurred would be usefull - prehaps with some Metrological detail would make the artical more compleate and Increase notability. --Wintonian (talk) 00:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Poss BBC source here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/richardblack/2010/01/arctic_conditions_arctic_cause.html . --Wintonian (talk) 00:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * If youe looking for Meterological Details (ie what happened to cause the snow) then i would look around the Met Offices and BBC weather's websites. For example the met office have done a review of the Widespread heavy snow and icy conditions, during December 17-23 2009 which contains some details which could be used. Also looking in the press release archive theres several news releases in there that could be used. Also im not sure if we are allowed to cite TV programes but instead of the football theres a BBC News special this evening talking about the snow. Jason Rees (talk) 01:03, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Simply south, I don't think this is a coincidence. There appears to be a reversal in prevailing winds. The Gulf Stream is further south (over the Med) causing high pressure north of it over the rest of Europe. This high pressure typically has easterly winds from colder areas such as Russia. If there is any flooding in the Med, then that would definitely be linked and can be traced quite locally. The wide implication for North America and China is more complicated for me at the moment, although I would love to do some research into it. El Nino (the reversal in Pacific air and ocean currents) might be one possible cause.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  02:30, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * CBC Newsworld said that it was caused by the North Atlantic Oscillation in conjunction with Winter. So an article on the 2009-2010 end-of-year/new-year season major storms would be in order. It said that there were rainstorms in the Southern Hemisphere and winter storms in the Northern Hemisphere, what with running trains in the middle of tracks being buried by snow in Mongolia, etc. 76.66.197.17 (talk) 11:55, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually I've found the article Winter storms of 2009–10. I think the causes could e improved though. Simply south (talk) 15:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Criticism of the Heart Network
Apparently if this is to be believed the Heart Network of semi-local radio stations has faced criticism for the poor amount of local information about the weather. There doesn't presently appear to be any information about this, but if true it could be worth adding. Does anyone have a reference? TheRetroGuy (talk) 16:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't bother about it. Thinking in the long-term development of the article, this sort of information will only get removed as not being of much importance.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  02:38, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree. The 4th - 6th January contain incredibly detailed minutiae which must be condensed into something more reasonable. There are policy content & guideline breaches relating to wp:notability, wp:not and wp:recentism to name just 3, but chiefly notability. Leaky  Caldron  09:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually I still haven't found anything about this and I'm starting to believe (as it was added anonymously) that it was someone's personal opinion of the network. I added a fact template to it, but I think I'm going to remove it altogether. TheRetroGuy (talk) 00:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Lose it - this is about a continent-wide weather event, someone's opinion of local radio journalism isn't really relevant. Totnesmartin (talk) 15:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Airport closures
"*London Gatwick Airport, London Heathrow Airport, Birmingham Airport, London Luton Airport, Southampton Airport, Blackpool International Airport, Exeter International Airport, Plymouth City Airport and London Stansted Airport were closed or are closed."

As well as these, I believe many more were, infact you can include Leeds Bradford Airport, Manchester Airport, Liverpool Airport and Robin Hood Doncaster Sheffield Airport to my knowledge alone. An incomplete list is misleading and a complete list of what would have to be every airport in the Europe closed because of snow would be overly lengthy and pretty worthless. Does anyone agree that any notable closures (most in the UK to my knowledge have lasted only a couple of hours anyway) should be worked into the main body of the text. Further more, is the closure of Exeter Airport as notable as the closure of Heathrow? Mtaylor848 (talk) 17:58, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Anything happening outside of London isn't notable.  Lugnuts  (talk) 18:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Stansted ,Luton and Gatwick are outside London and i would say Birmingham is a notable Airport as well. Simply south (talk) 18:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In the long-run we just need to say that there were airport closures across the United Kingdom. We don't need to list them all anyway, although Gatwick's the most notable. It was the main one that BBC News were mentioning.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  22:18, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Listing them all is not necessary. Gatwick possibly, because of duration and impact, with the rest included in a general comment. Leaky  Caldron  22:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Terminology
The Canadian terminology may be of use. The exact criteria vary across the different regions of the country, but in general the broad European weather equivalent would merit a heavy snowfall warning. It *might* also merit a windchill or arctic outflow warning (most of Europe has not been cold enough to merit a Canadian-style warning, with the exception of Scotland and some mountainous regions), but it is more likely that a special weather statement would be issued instead. Cold wave warnings and flash freeze warnings are restricted to sudden precipitous drops in temperature, ie. 20+ degree drop within 24 hours.

Combined with strong winds, the heavy snowfall warning would become a winter storm warning, or a blizzard warning when also combined with low temperatures and low visibility. Snow squall warnings are limited to off-lake snow and are never widespread (think 2-3 counties), although they can dump a metre of snow in those areas in a couple of days. (I just finished shovelling out from under one - they measured the total snowfall at over a metre - and more snow due tomorrow.)

Overview: http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/cd/brochures/warning_e.cfm#snowfall Atlantic region specifics (most similar to north-mid UK/European climates, loosely): http://www.atl.ec.gc.ca/weather/terminology.html Ontario region warnings table (scroll down) http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/severe-weather/winterwx_factsheet_e.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.29.124 (talk) 23:29, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Can it be abnormally cold at all longitudes?
To me it seems strange that it can be abnormally cold in London, Beijing, and Florida all at the same time. It makes me wonder, where does all this "extra cold" come from? Wnt (talk) 22:39, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not abnormally cold in many more northern countries. It is simply that the cold arctic air has dipped further south than usual, which is a jet stream + mountains effect. You mention Florida, but on the other coast at the same latitude, California is perfectly warm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.29.124 (talk) 22:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There would be less abnormailty on an island in the middle of an ocean. The British Isles are very close to Scandanavia and Russia, so we can get cold... if we have winds coming from the direction.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  23:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Equatorial regions don't become abnormally cold (or hot), as there are no winds.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  23:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

During the event icelandic low hasnt properly formed, aleutian low has been strong, weakening (and almost stopping) the Gulf stream has happened and the Ferrel cell normal westerly circulation greatly weakened and pushed south, polar vortex atypical, and what else (whole comment imho), third lowest NAO index recorded.84.231.19.39 (talk) 07:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)