Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2009/Archive 1

Scotland and UK
The UK and Scotland can not both enter, as Scotland is part of the UK. The UK would not be the UK without Scotland. I'd just be England Wales and Northern Ireland. Ijanderson977 (talk) 21:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The national broadcaster for the United Kingdom is the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC), which is covering England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Ever since the first running of the contest in 1956, the BBC has the exclusive first right to represent the United Kingdom at the Eurovision Song Contest. Whilst Scottish broadcasters are free to apply for EBU membership, Scotland would not be able to participate as seperate country under the current rules of the Eurovision Song Contest, as the UK is represented by the BBC... including Scotland. Jipi5474 (talk) 08:16, 25 May 2008 (GMT-5)


 * Scotland in the Eurovision Song Contest has been created and proposed for deletion, I have just endorsed the PROD. It is only based on a single source and is unlikely to happen under current rules unless Scotland becomes an independent country, which is not likely to happen any time soon. Camaron | Chris (talk) 13:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Moscow ?
Are you sure ? is it official, why not Saint Petersburg or Sochi, for instance. Hektor (talk) 22:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Who keeps deleting the Russia flag. All the other years have the flag of the host country, whats wrong with russia? Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not on the venue, but on the host broadcaster. --  [[ axg   ⁞⁞   talk   ]] 22:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Italy
Just wondering why Italy aren't taking part. What's the reason? There's no source for it at the moment. Jared Preston (talk) 22:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

as they have been out of the contest since 1997, it can be safely assumed they are not taking part in 2009, unless a source can be found otherwise. 149.79.35.227 (talk) 23:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Ireland
Why did you put Ireland in withdrawals?Its still to early to speculate,about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 22:27, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

THE UK
The UK whether it will participate will be revealed later in the year.It will more likely participate.We have only one source that they are afraid that they have to withdraw,but everything is based on speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Countries that won't take part
This list is getting silly. Before we know it, every non European country will be in the list as well as Italy, Luxembourg ect. Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I've removed it until some sources can be found.LHMike (talk) 23:05, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
Kosovo is not part of UN, so it cant be part of EBU,Chechnya, too. I think that countries like Zanzibar are not interested. BUT I AM SURE THAT THIS IS VANDALISAM, maybe this page should be locked!- Hello from Belgrade, did you liked ESC 08 ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhgvdbsg (talk • contribs) 10:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A country doesn't need to be a member state of the UN to be a member of EBU. Switzerland only joined the UN in 2002, but the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation was a founding member of EBU. Monaco joined the UN in 1993, but has been an EBU member since 1950. A  ecis Brievenbus 10:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Please also review WP:ATWV, good faith contributions do not equal vandalism. Camaron | Chris (talk) 13:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A country doesn't need to be a member state of the UN to be a member of EBU BUT it needs to be a state RECOGNISED by the UN (like Switzerland was before 2002). Kosovo is neither a UN member nor it's recognised by the organisation as an independent state, so it's ineligible to enter ITU and, subsequently, to enter EBU. If Kosovo is tipped as a possible contestant by the simple reason its broadcaster wants to enter EBU, Palestine would be listed here too because its broadcaster claimed something similar last year. The persistence of Kosovo as a possible contestant goes against the neutrality of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.163.44.213 (talk) 20:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Venues
If the contest ies held in Moscow,the following venues can be used.

So, three most possible arenas if contest is held in Moscow:


 * Khodynka Ice Palace (MegaSport Arena), built in 2006
 * Olimpiysky Arena, built in 1980
 * Four Seasons Hall, proposed to be built in 2009
 * Luzhniki Stadium, the venue in which the UEFA CUP final was held in Moscow.

Some possible venues in Saint Petersburg:
 * Neva Arena
 * Peterburgsky Sports Complex —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Sochi:
 * Sliding Centre

This site however,states that Dima Bilans manager Yana,says that the contest will be held in Saint petersburg: http://www.newsmusic.ru/news_2_11080.htm

There is currently a citation to a Russian source - can anyone translate? Specifically, does it actually say that the 2009 contest will be in Moscow? AnthonyUK (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Using Google: "Keep whether the word - until the mystery, but that will be arranged Eurovision-2009 - no doubt. The following year, at a European song contest invites Moscow." --  [[ axg   ⁞⁞   talk   ]] 15:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Also another thing: Putin already said that would organize special committee to prepare for Eurovision —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 15:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Did not you forget the Gazprom Arena and the Ice Palace? - 80.223.97.11 (talk) 17:06, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Moscow 2
It is confirmed as a host city.So now the likely stadiums where the contest can be held are above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 03:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Austria and Italy
Someone added in Austria and Italy citing this source. I really don't think that it should be accepted as they say that "There are unconfirmed reports on the following story, which should be read in caution". It's not really correct and I think they should be deleted, for now. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 20:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Will should wait longer, until a proper and reliable source is found, it has only been 1 day since the final. It also says that Moscow will host it next year. --  [[ axg   ⁞⁞   talk   ]] 20:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've deleted that is the same speculation over and over again the EBU has been trying since the year 1998 to bring Italy back to the contest that's why I removed it, unless there's an announcement by the broadcaster (as it's the case for Kosovo and Slovakia) that participation is being discussed then you can put it here with a reliable source other than that it is going to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony0106 (talk • contribs)
 * There seem to be rumours and reports every year that Italy could return to the ESC, so unless anything substantial comes up, particularly from the broadcaster, I think Italy related content should stay out. A similar status can also now be given to Austria for this year. Also on the side note, thank you for stating your opinion Sims2aholic8 - I have noticed this is the first time you have posted suggestions on a talk page, and more discussion on the article is always a good thing. Camaron | Chris (talk) 17:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Semi Protecting this page?
I think this would be a good idea for the moment, as the full line up of countries participating is still unknown. There are alot of people adding in content without a source (most of that coming from people who aren't registered), so like the ESC 2008 page, this should be semi-protected. -Breadsticks.rock (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The protection methods used on articles are a last ditch attempt to stop a situation where people are rapidly changing the page with bad faith edits to a point where people trying to maintain order in the article can't keep up. The edits you speak of may be unsourced, but they weren't done in bad faith and they aren't been done frequently enough that we can't keep on top of it. A request for semi-protection therefore would be immediately rejected and rightly so. I think we'd all rather people, who are making good faith edits, learn from their mistakes rather than just being shut out of the article altogether. Peteb16 (talk) 09:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There has been quite a lot of inappropriate editing to the article - including one unregistered user adding a country then sourcing it with an irrelevant obscene website clearly to try and surprise those checking the source. However, unregistered users have in the past, and will probably in the future, make good faith and often constructive contributions to ESC articles - so my opinion is to avoid protection as much as possible. Things will calm down a bit as we drift further away from ESC 2008 anyway, and won't build-up again until we start approaching the 2009 contest. Camaron | Chris (talk) 17:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Big 4:Germany France Spain and the UK:

 * Germany indeed confirmed participation for Moscow:on this link: http://www.bild.de/BILD/entertainment/musik/2008/05/25/eurovision-contest/sind-wir-zu-bloed-zum-gewinnen.html
 * Spain confirms participation as 60% of the viewers watched the event,and 14th place for Rodolfo is giving hope to the Spaniards:Link: http://www.oikotimes.com/v2/index.php?file=articles&id=3489
 * The UK will not withdraw.Stop saying and writing that because it is not true.Terry Wogan just said the UK will have to do harder to win it.Anyway this is the link,which confirms that BBC wont pull out of competition: http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/a96738/bbc-defends-eurovision-funding.html
 * France:Still waiting confirmation.


 * Austria maybe will participate as they had great viewing rates this year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 12:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Got a soucre for Austria?

Its not in the BBC's interests for the UK to pull out. It attracts good audiences. So the BBC are not do bothered if the UK doesn't win as it provides good entertainment. Therefore good for business and at the end of the day thats all it is ;) Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Both the Spanish and German source give no conformation of participating, they seem to suggest and imply the respective countries should participate, but that is not enough to verify confirmed participants. The one for the UK does not really either, but another source has been provided which does. Camaron | Chris (talk) 18:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

MAP
This reflects the article. Im adding it to the page. Please give your opinions and update it accordingly. Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Can someone find the HTML codes for yellow and pink please Ijanderson977 (talk) 18:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ Done My suggestion would be to move it to commons, so it can used in ESC 2009 articles of other language versions of Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects. A bot will likley start the process as happening for the maps in the ESC 2008 article. Camaron | Chris (talk) 19:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I don not have an account on commons. Would you do that for me please Ijanderson977 (talk) 19:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I will mark it as a candidate - my time is a little short at the moment so someone may beat me to it. I still recommend you do create an account on commons - its the same process as creating one on Wikipedia. Camaron | Chris (talk) 19:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

{{legend|#33FFFF|Confirmed participants}} {{legend|#FFFF66|Possible returns}} {{legend|#33FF33|Possible debuts}} {{legend|#FF00CC|Host}}


 * There is now a map on Commons ready for any work to be done on it. --  [[ axg   ⁞⁞   talk   ]] 20:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we should stick with the same colours from last years, the shades of green, those colours are too bright they don't look good also I don't think we should be marking the possible returns/debut but only the confirmed participants —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony0106 (talk • contribs)

Scotland
How can we confirm that the UK is entering and that it's possible Scotland will. Don't these facts cancel each other out? If Scotland went ahead with a separate entry that would mean Wales, Northern Ireland and England would have to do the same. If Scotland and the United Kingdom enter, wouldn't that mean Scotland effectively have two entries? :S Peteb16 (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The UK has confirmed for 2009, therefore Scotland can't compete unless the UK enters as England, Wales and N Ireland. Which it wont as it has confirmed that the UK will enter. Ijanderson977 (talk) 19:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Scotland in the Eurovision Song Contest is proposed for deletion. Ijanderson977 (talk) 19:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. In that case, Scotland's colour should be cyan and it should be removed from the possible debut's section. Peteb16 (talk) 19:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

✅ Done Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks again! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peteb16 (talk • contribs)

Surely if Kosovo is in the possible debut section then Scotland should be too? Neither are truly independent and in Scotland's case this may soon change (though there are varied opinions of course). I know that Wales too has showed interest in going it alone (being welsh) though I do understand that Welsh/Scottish participation, at least in 2009, is unlikely but NOT impossible. (sorry for causing more controversy!) Drigioni (talk) 21:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * But Kosovo has declared independence and is recognised by a number of nations, Scotland has not declared independence and is not recognised on its own, but as part of the UK. --  [[ axg   ⁞⁞   talk   ]] 21:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently the EBU have said that Scotland could participate independently - the problem is, no Scottish broadcaster has suggested that they actually want to. There are about a dozen countries in the EBU (Jordan and Egypt for example) that would also be eligible to compete, but also haven't declared any interest in doing so. That's why they (and Scotland) aren't listed.  Chwe ch  22:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Also the BBC has confirmed the UK will be entering in 2009. So if Scotland can not enter as Scottish people would have two people representing them. Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:00, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The main reason is that BBC has the rights of broadcasting ESC, in exclusive, in all the United Kingdom, so any Scottish broadcaster can't do it unless BBC sell them or withdraw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.163.44.213 (talk) 22:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * At the moment no scottish broadcaster has expressed interest in joining the contest, and if they ever did the BBC would have to wait until at least a welsh broadcaster like S4C wants to join alone. The chances of this happening are extremely low, and so it should be left out of the article for now. -Breadsticks.rock (talk) 09:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * S4C is already a member and is interested in participating in the JESC 2008. --  [[ axg   ⁞⁞   talk   ]] 09:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Is the BBC itself not allowed to submit separate entries on a regional level? Peteb16 (talk)
 * According to this source, yes ; the BBC could split their participation up into different regional levels, though they have not as far as I know expressed interest in doing so. That does not explain issues such as if all BBC entries would be qualified straight to the final based on financial contributions, or that they would lose this if their was a split. Camaron | Chris (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sweden and Finland
I think that Sweden can be added to the map of confirmed participants, since SVT have already sent out calls for next year's Melodifestivalen, as seen on their homepage: http://www.svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=79702&from=program_ao. It is most unlikely that a Melodifestivalen winner would not go on and represent Sweden in the ESC. The same goes for Finland. YLE states that ESC will be back next year and Finland is already looking for next year's entry: http://www.iltalehti.fi/euroviisut/200805267705501_ev.shtml --Aatox (talk) 09:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I added Finland. I did not add Sweden as im not too sure on the source. I can't see anything for 2009. Ijanderson977 (talk) 10:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I updated the map to include Finland. But it isn't showing the update on this page. Someone help please? Ijanderson977 (talk) 11:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Okey, thanks. The Swedish information is there on that page. It says "Nu kan du anmäla dig! Vill du vara med i Melodifestivalen 2009?", which translates "Now you may enter! Do you want to participate in Melodifestivalen 2009?". This is followed by links to the application form and the rules. --Aatox (talk) 19:15, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Nagorno-Kabarakh
Some (Armenian) anon keeps adding the secessionist entity of Nagorno-Kabarakh to the "possible debuts" section, without references. While one could argue Kosovo is also secessionist entity, Kosovo participation is an actual (and sourced) possibility. The two are not comparable.  Balkan Fever  12:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * agree Ijanderson977 (talk) 13:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Official membership criteria
Eligible participants include all Active Members of the European Broadcasting Union. Active Members are those whose states fall within the European Broadcasting Area, or otherwise those who are members of the Council of Europe. The European Broadcasting Area is defined by the International Telecommunication Union. -

And Kosovo has no current prospect of joining CoE (Scotland is member as part of the UK) or the UN body - ITU. So it's only their wish to join but they would first need to join the CoE or UN which I don't see happening for the 2009 Eurovision. So Kosovo is not eligible neither is Nagorno Karabakh.

Do you need a proof of the CoE criteria? Check the name under which Macedonia performs in Eurovision. It's the name under which it entered the CoE - FYR Macedonia. And if you are wondering about Israel or Morocco - they fit into the UN broadcasting area criteria.

--Avala (talk) 11:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that info earlier. Ill update the map. Ijanderson977 (talk) 11:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Then what do you suggest be done in the Kosovo in the Eurovision Song Contest article, consensus is currently forming to keep the page, and it is currently an orphan with one article (Music of Kosovo) linking to it. The content of the page also seems to be a little at odds with what is being said here. Camaron | Chris (talk) 11:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know exactly what "states fall within the European Broadcasting Area" means... but if I'm not wrong, Kosovo falls within the European Broadcasting Area unless Kosovo has moved outside of the region bounded on the west by the western boundary of Region 1, on the east by the meridian 40° East of Greenwich and on the south by the parallel 30° North... It doesn't say that it has to be recognized as a member of UN to fall within a geographic region. And, if EBU considers that Kosovo is really an state (41 countries does), I don't see why they can't take part of Eurovision... B1mbo (talk) 03:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The Future of Eurovision Song Contest
The future,which includes changes in the voting procedure and all those things will be discussed at a meeting of the European Broadcasting Union in Athens in two weeks' time. The source,exlusively for you: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/may/28/bbc.television?gusrc=rss&feed=media —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 13:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Big 4: May lose automatic place in Eurovision final
Published on ESCToday.com by Gavin Murray 2008.05.28 Source: MediaGuardian.co.uk The full publication can be viewed and verified in full, via this weblink http://www.esctoday.com/news/read/12025

The UK, France, Germany and Spain (also known as the 'Big 4' countries) could lose their guaranteed place in the Eurovision Song Contest final following criticism that the event is becoming increasingly biased against western European countries. Eurovision organisers have told MediaGuardian.co.uk that the issue of the Big 4's guaranteed place in the final will be one of a number to be discussed at a meeting of the European Broadcasting Union in Athens in two weeks' time.

This breaking news from ESCToday; shows evidence that France, Germany, Spain, and United Kingdom, are participating at Eurovision 2009, as stated by the head of EBU, Svante Stockselius. Therefore I feel that these 4 countries can be added as CONFIRMED PARTICIPANTS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BERGMAN79 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

One question:Who add Greece as possible participant?Cmon,they dont have a REASON, to withdraw,they had a godo place this year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 17:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Not only a good placing, but incredible ratings. At points in the show, it received 92% viewer ship.  There are already discussions on who to send next year going on at ERT. Greekboy (talk) 17:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes,thats right,thats why I took out the silly thing that Greece is only possible. I also added another section called The Format:We still have to mention something about that meeting in Greece which will take time soon. This is what I added:

how is the show biased towards western European countries. When was the last time a western European country did well. When was the last time a western european country was awarded 12 points. When was the last time a non-western european country voted purely on the song rather than politically/ voted for their neighbor. Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The Format
The Eurovision Song Contest 2008 had a lot of criticism,regarding how the Western European countries are treated in the competition.The format will be carefully reviewed.Whether there will still be a big 4,the existment of the bi4,as well as having a jury instead of the televoting system,a mixture of jury and televote,or a new televoting procedure,will be discussed in an EBU meeting in Athens in 2 weeks time.Svante Stockselius,the executive supervisor of the EBU,confirmed that there will be a lot of discussions for improvement of the contest,because many countries are not satisfied with their results in Eurovision in the recent years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 17:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Serbia will be in ESC 2009
Change the map because Serbia will be in ESC the next year. Here you can found the reference --83.54.222.118 (talk) 17:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Kosovo
I rly don't think that Kosovo should be listed as a possible contestant. I see no way that Russia will accept Kosovo as a contestant in Moscow. Apart from that, if that isn't a too strong argument, we should have in mind that one of the big four (Spain) does not recognize Kosovo... So I suggest we delete it as a possible debute... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.157.158.203 (talk) 01:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

But also the countries who oppose,besides Serbia, also are,Ukraine,Belarus,Armenia,Azerbaijan,Georgia,Spain as a big four,Romania, Greece and Slovakia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 06:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Regarding the first point, "Russia [not accepting] Kosovo as a contestant in Moscow": Russia doesn't really have a choice in this. If and when Kosovo are EBU members, they have a right to join the contest, and when they do so, Russia is obliged to allow them to participate. The host can not select the candidates. Whether Kosovo will join the EBU is another matter. But as 202.161.76.219 correctly says, the governments of quite a lot of EBU members have opposed Kosovo's declaration of independence. But all of this is speculation. What we know is that Kosovo has filed a request to join the EBU, with the aim of joining the Contest in 2009. This makes it a possible candidate. A  ecis Brievenbus 10:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello again, sry I forgot to sign my entry. I’m ‘83.157.158.203’


 * This is from the EBU site:


 * “Active membership of the EBU is open to broadcasting organizations or groups of such organizations from:


 * a member country of the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) situated in the European Broadcasting Area as defined by the Radio Regulations annexed to the International Telecommunication Convention, or a member country of the Council of Europe which is situated outside the European Broadcasting Area”


 * I checked, Kosovo is not a member of the ITU. It is however in the European broadcasting area which means that the only way for them to enter is to become a member of the ITU.
 * In order to enter into the ITU, a country must: “As part of the United Nations structure, a country can be a member, in which case it is referred to as a Member State” (wikipedia).


 * I think that we can safely say, with absolute confidence that Kosovo will never be a member country of the UN. That being said, they can’t enter the ITU as a country, and consequently they can’t enter the EBU either which means that they can’t take part of the ESC.
 * I’m sry guys but I’m just trying to be logical.


 * There are a few more conditions for the EBU membership. I found this one interesting:


 * “b) they are under an obligation to, and actually do, provide varied and balanced programming for all sections of the population, including programmes catering for special/minority interests of various sections of the public, irrespective of the ratio of programme cost to audience”
 * The part that I found important is “provide varied and balanced programming for all sections of the population”. For the time being Kosovo broadcasters are not providing a balanced programming for ALL sections of the population.DedMed (talk) 12:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

We should take Kosovo out then.It wont take part in esc 2009 surely.They dont meet the requirements to participate in.Even if they decide to participate,Serbia will withdraw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 13:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's all speculation, 202.161.76.219. All we know is that Kosovo has filed a request to join the EBU, hoping to join the ESC in 2009. Why they might or might not actually take part is irrelevant, speculative and original research. A  ecis Brievenbus 13:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That might, as you already said be ‘all speculation’, but I don’t think that the official site of the EBU is to be taken lightly. I did some research and as you probably have already read, the collected facts give a very low chance for Kosvo to enter as a separate country.
 * Now, if you don’t suggest that the EBU or that the ITU wiki page are posting erroneous info, I suggest Kosovo be deleted immediately.
 * I haven’t seen you refuting what I wrote b4, but in case you do have another opinion, that can be proven I propose you write it —Preceding unsigned comment added by DedMed (talk • contribs) 13:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not for you or me to decide whether they stand a big chance or not. If Kosovo/RTK doesn't meet the regulations for EBU membership, EBU will decline their application. Time will tell. But at this moment, all we have is their membership application, and as long as that is running, Kosovo is a possible candidate. A  ecis Brievenbus 13:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Aecis, the core point here is that Wikipedia functions by verifibility not truth. The source is there which says Kosovo could debut, therefore it is appropriate to put into the article. Removing it based on likelihood and editors personal theries is against the spirit of Wikipedia policies, particularly WP:OR. Camaron | Chris (talk) 13:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think Kosovo definitely cant join the ESC because, even if RTK joins the EBU, it will only be as a TV station inside Serbia, because, even though many countries support it, Kosovo is not an officially independent country. For it to be, ALL of the UN nations must accept its independency. And in order to participate int Eurovision you MUST be an indepentant country. Need I remind you of speculations that Palestine(?) was suppose to enter ESC 2008? Same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marko garfield (talk • contribs) 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * You do not actually have to be an independent country to participate in the Eurovision Song Contest, though I am aware the issue is more complex for Kosovo. It has been found that Scotland could send its own entry under current rules regardless of whether it was independent from the United Kingdom or not. The main thing stopping this from happening is that the BBC holds the rights to submit an entry for the entire of the United Kingdom, including Scotland, and it is not at present got any plans to divide up the single UK entry into multiple ones for regions - though as I have said, that option is there. As for Palestine, well consensus can change, what was done then should not dictate what happens in similar cases now. Camaron | Chris (talk) 19:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Why is Kosovo on a map as a European state? It is not recognised by the UN therefore not recognised as an independent country. It is currently neither recognised by the EBY. If magically the region becomes recognised by EBU (very long shot) then the ma should include Kosovo as independent but not now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LukaP (talk • contribs)


 * I do NOT CARE how many times the source for Kosovo is deleted, I'll continue adding it every day and every minute that I can. Whether you consider them independent or not, their broadcaster have confirmed interest in taking part. On the other hand, Russia has no word with who can or can not participate in the contest. May I remind you that Turkey does NOT recognize Cyprus and yet the Cypriots sang on the 2004 final held in Istanbul? The only thing Russia, Serbia or Spain is boycotting the contest if they don't want to see a Kosovan participant. Furthermore, the only thing Russia can do to prevent Kosovo's participation is not letting Kosovan citizens to enter Russia but that is not a big move since they can always send a a foreign/dual citizenship crew to represent them, as is going to happen in the Beijing olympics. Kosovo IS an independent country for over other 40 nations. The issue of Kosovo is a bit similar to Israel since there are over 100 countries that don't recognize the State of Israel and yet they are members of the UN, EBU, UEFA, etc. Tony0106 (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The main difference between Kosovo and the others you have mentioned is that Kosovo is not a member of the UN, EBU, UEFA, Council of Europe and so on. Palestine also said they were interested in entering last year. You should then add them to the map as well since some countries recognise Palestine’s independence from Israel. Since you only added Kosovo because they expressed interest you should also add other unrecognised breakaway territories which have also done the same.

I suggest we move it under ' countries & territories that have expressed interest in joining' “‘ DedMed (talk) 15:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why are we still keeping Kosovo as a 'possible debuts'. CLEARLY the majority of us concur that Kosovo can't be a member of the UN, thus can't be a member of EBU. It's not because the expressed interest that they can possibly participate nxt year. If some1 doesn't give a backed up contra-argument I suggest we delete this IMMEDIATELY! DedMed (talk) 19:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Lebanon
The source stating a possible comeback from Lebanon is not reliable since it was just a singer saying he wants to be in Eurovision and there were no words of the Lebanese broadcaster on that issue put Lebanon when you find a source in which the broadcaster/s discuss a possible debut from them Tony0106 (talk) 20:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, you're right. The source was published in May 2007, and doesn't specifically make any mention of 2009 (it's actually about 2008!).  Chwe ch  20:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeh we should not add it to the page unless there is confirmation for 2009 Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * In theory Lebanon can enter in 2009 as TLB will have finished serving their 3 year ban imposed on them in 2005. Whether or not they choose to enter again will depend on the political situation in the country and whether or not they agree to recognise the state of Israel. If TLB are free from government restriction about not mentioning Israel then I guess Lebanon may enter in 2009. Still, it's all speculation at the minute. (CKnight16 (talk) 12:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC))

Kazakhstan
I recall some talk of Kazakhstan wanting to take part in 2008. Is there any indication that they might want to take part next year? A ecis Brievenbus 10:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes its true. Kazakhstan 2009 Ijanderson977 (talk) 09:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * They are not even in the EBU zone so how can they be eligible to even enter the EBU??? That source is not reliable because it just an opnion article. It says ``2009's result could be even more skewed if rumoured new entrants such as Kazakhstan and Kosovo take part´´ is that confirming a possible participation for Kazakhstan??? I'm afraid not when the Kazakh broadcaster expresses its interested in taking part then you can put them here.Tony0106 (talk) 07:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I got to disagree with you there. They are expected to become a full EBU member sometime this year, therefore will be eligible for eurovison 2009. Also the heading which Kazakhstan was in, was called Possible debuts. It was well sourced too. Ijanderson977 (talk) 09:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

An informed response from the head of ESC Kazakhstan, who lives in Almaty, Kazakhstan:

Yes, we had first official broadcast of the contest this year on a secondary channel. Yes, both our main TV networks expressed interest to join the contest. There is no problem with EBU guidance (all CIS countries are considered as special group and all are allowed to join basicly), but I doubt membership will be reached within a year. Contest begins at 1.00 am here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 16:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Possible debutants/returnees
Each year there are weak rumors that Italy will return. I believe the EBU wants Italy back but that RAI is uninterested. Austria's return is more possible as ORF did broadcast the finals -- did Monaco broadcast the final this year? I would argue we should put in some mention of their status, i.e. something like 'there are no indications Italy will return' to prevent the constant edit wars over Italy's (and other nations') possible returning status -- or create a category of 'Unlikely returnees' with Morocco, Italy, etc. 98.169.72.201 (talk) 02:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * well what we need is sources before any info can be added. Please provide us with sources ;) Ijanderson977 (talk) 23:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * In fairness, up until a couple of hours ago the note in the "possible returns" section said that countries should be added to the list if they meet the criteria to compete, so in that sense people could have been forgiven for thinking Italy/Austria should be listed and adding them accordingly. I don't see the point of listing each country and its status: if there's no interest, it won't be listed, if there is, it will be added; adding a load of countries with "XYZ have no interest in competing" seems a bit redundant.  Chwe ch  23:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I see the logic, but just think a list of 'unlikely returnees' would prevent the edit wars we've been seeing -- or does it get better as time goes on? 98.169.72.201 (talk) 01:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeh but all edits should be backed with references. Ijanderson977 (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Israel Suspended?
I'm confused with the suspension of Israel? There is no reliable source backing up this. I feel that unless a reliable source is attached to the subject; then it should be removed. --BERGMAN79 (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We can not add anything until we have reliable sources. I don't know why the EBU would want to suspend Israel. Out of interest, where did you here this rumor? Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I only mentioned this; as someone added an article on Wikipedia (Eurovision Song Contest 2009) about Israel being suspended - and as there is no solid evidence to back this up; I was purely pointing out the fact that the article concerning Israel's suspension should be removed. However, it now looks as though that article has been removed from Wikipedia. Sorry for any confusion there. --BERGMAN79 (talk) 02:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Austria (again)
I'm not sure about whether Austria should be added or not. The source only says ORF will decide in Autumn, and that's a long way away. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I would say if Poland can be listed under a possible withdrawal for pretty much the same reason, Austria would be ok. I suppose it is a statement of interest from ORF. I've removed Monaco, Morocco, Italy and Luxembourg, however; the source says it "seems very unlikely" that they will participate - I can't see how that would merit adding them to the list.  Chwe ch  16:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I dont think Austria should be listed because they say participation is ``unlikely´´ while Poland says they will decide if they are going to participate or withdraw. It´s different. This is Tony0106, btw. 190.37.111.46 (talk) 20:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Isn't it possible that any country from last year could be back for 2009? I don't think that that section's inclusion is neccessary. Grk1011 (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Kazakhstan again
Will possibly debut.This is a trancript of an interview.An informed response from the head of ESC Kazakhstan, who lives in Almaty, Kazakhstan:

Yes, we had first official broadcast of the contest this year on a secondary channel. Yes, both our main TV networks expressed interest to join the contest. There is no problem with EBU guidance (all CIS countries are considered as special group and all are allowed to join basicly), but I doubt membership will be reached within a year. Contest begins at 1.00 am here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 16:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Where is the source to confirm the interest of the Kazakh broadcaster??? and where is the source that says that all CIS are in a special group thus allowing entrance at ESC???. I really doubt that, just imagine Kyrgyzstan participating, very far away from Europe, far away from the Middle East. At least Kazakhstan has about 3% of its territory in the European Broadcasting Area however I don´t think they should be allowed to partiipate. Imagine an ESC in Almaty way far east from the borders of Europe. This is Tony0106. 190.37.111.46 (talk) 21:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Kazakhstan is classed as Europe as about a quarter of its territory lays west of the Ural Mountains making it European. For those not familiar, the Ural mountains is a common divide between Europe and Asia, along with the Caspian Sea. Ijanderson977 (talk) 23:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Andorra
I was chatting to Creu Rosell (HoD Andorra) in Belgrade and she told me that Andorra will continue to enter ESC and will try again in 2009. I have an email from her confirming this, but I guess it's not a proper notable source. In her words "The most important thing for us is to be here. Our goal is simply to qualify for the final." Amongst other things we discussed why Andorra can't seem to escape the semis. I told her it's mostly on the presentation of the songs! (CKnight16 (talk) 12:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC))