Talk:Eva Perón/Archive 1

Mention of her cancer
The mention of her hysterectomy comes out of nowhere, and it says "the cancer" had spread... I feel that we need more background before this statement.

Changing her age
I hope others will keep an eye on her age. Someone keeps changing it in the Buenos Aires section. Someone just inserted that she went to Buenos Aires at age 9. She went at 15, of course. Andrew Parodi 07:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course.Foolscape 21:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Nazi support
Evita was not invovled in helping Nazis escape justice. Juan Peron did that. Evita herself was not involved. And she was not a supporter of Mussolini or Hitler. Here is an article you should read, by an Argentine scholar who actually knows Argentine history:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1997/int/970120/cinema.the_woman.html 172.193.196.25 22:25, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

She was a complete fraud, she supported a pro-Hitler dictator, see http://www.enrager.net/history/articles/1919-eva-evita-peron/


 * The article you cite is inaccurate. This is not a defense of Peron, but merely of historical truth. Juan Peron never expressed any admiration for Hitler, and Peronist Argentina bore no real resemblance to Nazi Germany. (It was the military dictatorships, supported by US forces, that deposed Peron and went on to kill tens of thousands that bore a closer resemblance to Nazi Germany.) In fact, Lawrence Levine, presumably a Jewish man, wrote in his book "Inside Argentina from Peron to Menem" that Juan Peron found German society too rigid, and that one of his most important allies in organizing the industrial sector was Jose Ber Gelbard, Jewish immigrant from Poland; Peron sought out the Jewish community for participation in his government, and I've read some Jewish books that said there was less anti-semitism in Peronist Argentina than in 1940s/50s New York. Accusations of Nazi sympathizing are simply easy blanket indictments that anti-Peronists use in order to discredit him. Again, it's not that I'm interested in defending Peron (I am neither Peronist nor Argentine), but that I am interested in historical truth. And, by the way, the article you link to says, "It was Eva who had shown remarkable resolve when Peron was wavering and preparing to go into exile. It was she who was a chief architect in mobilising the masses in a populist show of support for Peron." I just edited the Wikipedia article to mention that this is a myth. Serious historians know that Evita had nothing to do with the rally that freed Peron from prison in 1945. -- Andrew Parodi 14:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Gerbald [sic] should be spelled Gelbard Jclerman 05:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 11:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I am very dissapointed that nothing is mentioned here about her involvement with helping nazis escape justice. (Anon)

I've indicated that she was nicknamed 'Evita', the artical jumped between calling her 'Eva' and 'Evita', without indicating this. I'm not sure if I've worded this in the best way, perhaps someone who knows how she got the nick, could put this in the artical? CS Miller 17:42, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * In Spanish, Evita is the standard nickname for Eva. Ejrrjs 02:14, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

At age 14, she lost her virginity to tango singer José Armani.
Could you please provide a reference to this (strong) claim? Thanks in advance, Ejrrjs 21:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Who cares when she lost her virginity? On the broad timeline of her life I don't see how that is much of an issue. -- Andrew Parodi 14:52, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Well actually i do u ditz! Kiss_Ma 14:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Then I have an article you should start: Evita Peron's Virginity and When it Was Lost. -- Andrew Parodi 23:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * My, my, I didn't know "editors" lowered themselves to such childish talk and behavior Mr. Parodi. Foolscape 17:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * NOTE: Personal attack by Foolscape against me. This is not allowed on Wikipedia. Andrew Parodi 10:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Eva Peron was known for her perceived-promiscuous nature...At 15, she left home with a married man, so I think there is some relevances...Maybe put it in less severe wording. Michael 22:54, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Allegedly left home with a married man. That's still being debated. And I don't see how the loss of her verginity is linked to anything important in her life or the history of Argentina, so I don't see why it should be included. 207.200.116.200 15:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Piras-peron
WHO ARE JUAN PERON? THE CASE "GIOVANNI PIRAS - JUAN PERON" (the truth on the origins of Juan Domingo Peron) ¿DONDE NACIÓ PERÓN? a sardinian enigma in the history of Argentina One of the most mysterious and fascinating cases of the modern history of Mamoiada, a village of the central Sardinia in province of Nuoro (Italy), is with no doubt the one of " Giovanni Piras - Juan Peron ":that is to say two names, two individuals, in truth were the same person. Sure, it is hard to believe that mythical General Juan Peron, three times president of the Argentine, was, exactly, Giovanni Piras, that same humble peasant that at the beginning of the century emigrated young in South America. You will all ask why this Giovanni Piras would have had to change identity or why Juan Peron hid his true origin. Piras had to create for himself an Argentine birth in order to avoid the call to the arms for war 1915-18 from part of his native land and to escape the officials of the Italian embassy, who searched the emigrant deserters. In that period Giovanni Piras, with the aid of powerful persons that were also friends, found the most suitable situation to creep in: a substitution of person was put into effect, which served also in order to undertake the studies to the Military Academy, granted only to the Argentinean citizens, born and nationalized in Argentine. To change identity was, in fact, the sole manner to enter the Colegio Militar. Once he became the President of the Argentine Republic, to greater reason his true identity did not have to be revealed, since the Argentinean Constitution states that the President of the nation must be native of the place. An irreversible process, a point of no return had been primed; the situation became very serious and dangerous for Peron because with the person substitution a fraud had happened to the State, a serious crime and not only for a politician. To reveal the true identity meant to compromise his credibility, his deep concept of native land, of " betrayal of the native land, and of being a true, genuine and faithful Argentinean ", that he exalted and repeated in many speeches; it meant to lose his rank, his uniform and his power. To rigor of logic, this was the reason for which he hid his true identity, a much dangerous one for his position; otherwise, Peron would have shown his true origin, as he went proud of it. Peron justified his great love for Sardinia and the Sardinians saying that the paternal great-grandfather had come from that island, therefore he had Sardinian blood in the veins, but later, his alibi of this declared ancestors did not stand firm. In one of the books of Enrique Pavòn Pereyra, a personal biographer of Juan Peron, a great enigmatic draw has a sentence (dictated to the writer from the exiled  Argentinean in his Madrilenian house) on how he jealously preserved the origin of his birth rate; it reads so: “I have played with my destiny a magical bet, and I was successful until today conserving my origins as deep secret”. In Mamoiada this is a case debated from almost sixty years: in the 1951 N. Tola by the newspaper “Unione Sarda”; in the 1984 P. Canneddu whith the book “Juan Peron-Giovanni Piras two names one person”; today many doubts have been cleared in the report of Raffaele Ballore an the book of Gabriele Casula “¿DONDE NACIÓ PERÓN? un enigma sardo nella storia dell’Argentina” have illustrated the proofs collected, unmasking and effectively demonstrating plenty of the contradictions of Peron and of the Argentinean historians with documents and photographs, beyond numerous documented oral testimonies and coincidences. The great Argentine press and the living biographers of general Peron never answered to the appeals to discuss the case. Their indisposition to reconsider objectively and serenely the whole story is to be interpreted like fear of the truth and that their studies on the important personage could be knocked down and mocked. The case could feed ideological earthquakes or provoke patriotic resentments. The worries for the risk of tearing open this myth are comprehensible, but the historical truth must not have compromises. From the author’s part, to prove the true identity of Peron in no way must be seen as a discourteous action towards the Argentinean people nor a way to lessen the myth of their former President: if he was elected democratically for three times it means that he must have had some merit, indeed, together with Evita he remains a mythical personage in the entire Latin American panorama. Only after reading the report and the book an objective judgment can be expressed and a conclusion can be attained. The report is documented and deposited, every information is reliable; not only the several oral testimonies are there but, this time, also documentary and photographic proofs. For informations to the long report and the book please visit site www.piras-peron.it

nazi smuggling
Some info on the Nazi smuggling can be found here:

http://ukinet.com/la-times.htm

I'd've liked to edit the main article to include this and stuff from the enrager/AF article below, but I don't know enough about wikipedia.

More commonly known as Evita
If she's more commonly knwn as Evita, as the lead admits, then this article should be found at Evita instead of Eva, per Wikipedia article naming conventions. DreamGuy 10:42, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, but Evita is the musical about her life. Michael 22:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Which She?
''Her life and career are dramatized in the popular musical, Evita, co-produced by Andrew Lloyd Webber, which starred... Madonna in film, for which she won the Best Actress in a Musical or Comedy Golden Globe Award.''

To me, this seems to say Eva Perón won a Golden Globe for Madonna's performance. Any way, do we need this information here? -Not Logged In, Aug 29, 12:34 (UCT)

Concerning Eva Peron's cause of death
Peron died of cervical cancer not uterine cancer and most likely so did Juan Peron's first wife. Cervical is caused by the Human Papilloma virus. Dakota 17:13, September 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * Evita did die of the cervical cancer. Below the NY times story link. Peron knew of it but she was not told. He was afraid he would lose his election so had her secretly operated on.-Levarro 17:59, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/060600hth-doctors.html

Matthew 04:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Added another reference, a medical journal article by a physician, detailing the role of the American surgeon, George T. Pack, MD, in performing hysterectomy under secrecy for Evita's cervical cancer. Dr. Pack's widow and Dr. Abel N Canonico, later head of Argentina's Institute of Oncology, confirmed this.

Expanding article
I just expanded the article quite a bit, and gave it headers. I'm basically a lay scholar in the life of Evita. I know more about her than I should. :) -- Andrew Parodi 14:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Spanish language Eva Peron page
An editor recently submitted this link to the Spanish version of this page: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Per%C3%B3n

I now see that this English language page was based on the Spanish page, or vice versa. Whatever the case, the Spanish language page about Evita is plagued with errors, which is a bit surprising because one would think that it would be people outside of Evita's culture who would make the greatest errors. Anyway, all edits I have made on this page about Eva Peron are in line with the numerous biographies and article I have read about her over more than 14 years. I can't possibly quote a passage from the particular book with every edit; that would require a virtual transcription of the books themselves, which is not the point of thise site, of course. -- Andrew Parodi 03:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Switched pictures
I hope it won't offend anyone, but I uploaded a scan of Eva Peron on the cover of Time Magazine and I put that scan at the top of the page. I felt that this was more appropriate for the top of the page, because Evita's appearance on Time Magazine shows that during her lifetime she was not only important to Argentines but also considered an interesting figure by the editors of what is perhaps the biggest and most mainstream political weekly in the United States. I believe that this cover depicts the international impact Evita had during her life, whereas the stamp with her picture on it, of course, commemorates her death "after the fact." Also, I think it's significant to note that she is the only South American first lady to ever appear on the cover of Time Magazine. -- Andrew Parodi 05:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Noam Chomsky on Peronism in Argentina
By the way, I'm not sure if anyone is interested, but I once asked Noam Chomsky if he felt Peronism ultimately made Argentina more democratic or less democratic of a society. Chomsky responded by first saying that he didn't know much about Argentine history, but that he didn't think anyone could know for sure if Peron ultimately made Argentina more democratic -- and that he (Chomsky) didn't think anyone would know for sure. This exchange took place on the Z Magazine forum. Here's the exchange:

''Reply from NC,

I'm no specialist on Argentina, but it doesn't seem to me that the Bush-Peron comparison is very helpful. Differences seem to me far more significant than similarities.

The term "fascist" has no very clear definition. Some of the best and most serious early work on fascism, like that of the fine Veblenite economist Robert Brady 60 years ago, pointed out that the regimes called "fascist" were just special variants of reactions all over the state capitalist world to similar economic/political problems and crises. The New Deal was called "fascist," with some justification. And there was great sympathy in the US and Britain for Italian Fascism, even the Nazi variant. That continued in many ways after the war. There's no sensible answer, in my opinion, to the question whether Peron was fascist. He shared some characteristics with regimes called "fascist," not others.

On whether Peron was helpful or harmful to Argentina, I doubt that even (sensible) specialists would hazard an answer. There are just too many dimensions.

On the reliance on the military to overthrow civilian regimes that get out of control, that's such characteristic US policy that there is a huge literature on it, both special cases and the general policies. Even right in the mainstream, like Cole Brasier and Stephen Rabe. I've written about it extensively (from a somewhat different point of view, however, and cited a great many sources). So of course have many others. Too many to try to list.

On Peron specifically, I'd suggest turning to the specialist literature.

Noam Chomsky

At 08:36 AM 11/10/2004 -0500, you wrote: From: znetchomskychat Listmanager

Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 2:00 AM Subject: Juan Peron

From: "Andrew Parodi"

Dear Mr. Chomsky,

In an earlier post, someone referred to the recent Bush election as similar to the situation with Juan Peron in Argentina. I was a bit surprised by this comparison, because, well, ... I've studied a bit about Peronism, and to my knowledge, Juan Peron usually won by more than 60% of the vote. I believe that upon his return from Spain to Argentina, he actually won something like 70% of the vote. Bush, of course, only won by about 3% of the vote in the recent elections.

Also, in "Understanding Power" you used Juan Peron as an example of a rightwing South American politician that the US opposed. (Your point was that the US does not only go after the Left, but often opposes the rightwing in Latin America as well.) I suppose I'm a bit confused about Juan Peron. I have heard him referred to as having been a fascist, but most now agree that he was not. Robert Crassweller in "Peron and the Enigmas of Argentina" wrote that Peronism was not fascism, but "may be roughly defined as an authoritarian populist movement, strongly colored by Catholic social thought, by nationalism, by organic principles of Mediterranean corporatism,and by the 'caudillo' [military leader] traditions of the Argentine Creole civilization." Is this a definition you would agree with? And do you think that ultimately Peron was helpful for Argentina, or was he destructive?

On one hand I think he was helpful because he gave women the right to vote and brought the working class into the political process. On the other hand, he used repressive means such as torture, threats, intimidation, etc. But in comparison to the military dictatorships that followed him, Peron almost seems like a dove.

Lastly, I recall reading that the assignment of all South American militaries is to overthrow civilian governments when they become too threatening to US interests. Are there any books you'd recommend on this topic? And was the US at all involved in the overthrow of Juan Peron?

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Andrew Parodi''

-- Andrew Parodi 10:21, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You are right. No one cares about your correspondence with someone

who is not a "specialist" on Argentenia. Will you stop wasting discussion page space with usless information.Foolscape 21:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps some time after you enlighten me as to the location and history of this nonexistent country you refer to as "Argentenia" (I suppose that's a country where they have a lot of a antennas) you will explain to me how it is that Noam Chomsky is the world's most cited living author and yet no one will care what he has to say about Argentine history. Argentines are some of the most highly educated and intelligent people in the world (with one of the highest literacy rates in the world, somewhere around 90%) and therefore I'd wager that many would be interested to know what Noam Chomsky has to say. Please stop wasting discussion page space with useless attacks on me. Thank you. Andrew Parodi 02:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I am not wasting discussion page. I am not attacking you, as you seem to like to do to others. I am just stating a fact that just because someone is widely quoted doesn’t mean he is an expert (as you seem to believe) on all subjects.  He himself said he wasn’t familiar with Argentina (not antennas as you so rudely mention) I suppose you with your superior knowledge have never accidentally misspelled any words ever in any of your writings. His answer, “I doubt that even (sensible) specialists would hazard an answer” seems to be very telling.  He also told you, “On Peron specifically, I'd suggest turning to the specialist literature.”  Also very telling.  As far as you saying and I quote, “Argentines are some of the most highly educated and intelligent people in the world (with one of the highest literacy rates in the world, somewhere around 90%) and therefore I'd wager that many would be interested to know what Noam Chomsky has to say.”  What does that have to do with what Chomsky has to say since he was born in the United States (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania) and not in the land of antennas (Argentina if your not sure what I meant)? That statement makes absolutely no sense in your argument. Even the name Chomsky doesn't sound very Latin American so I guess you can't claim he is Argentine-American. Chomsky is well renowned as a linguist.  Foolscape 17:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If you don't cease and desist I am going to request that a moderator intervene. I have nothing further to say to you. Thank you. Andrew Parodi 09:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Please have a moderator intervene if you so desire. If only criticizing your discussion notes is un-wiki, I need to know.  If disagreeing with you is completely wrong, I also need to know.  Are you the only person on wiki that is not allowed to be criticized? I have made no personal attacks against you.  I just don’t agree that a left wing activist will give you a NPOV (Neutral Point Of View).  Quote “Beginning with his critique of the Vietnam War in the 1960s, Chomsky has become more widely known — especially internationally — for his media criticism and radical politics than for his linguistic theories. [1][2] He is generally considered to be a key intellectual figure within the left wing of United States politics. According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index, between 1980 and 1992 Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar, and the eighth most cited scholar overall. [3][4][5] Chomsky is widely known for his political activism, and for his criticism of the foreign policy of the United States and other governments.  Per - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky
 * I suppose I was mistaken that this was to be an NPOV (Neutral Point of View) article. Your anger has shown me that only Andrew Parodi’s point of view is allowed in this article.  Or were you just so proud that Chomsky actually answered you that you were willing to add anything he said just to prove how important you feel you are? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foolscape (talk • contribs) 00:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC). Foolscape 01:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Note: Regarding Latin American "sounding" names: I thought that some here may be interested in learning that there is no such thing as a "Latin American sounding" name. There are some native born Argentines named Michael Smith. In fact, the author of the first biography of Eva Peron was a woman of English descent but born in Argentina; her name was Mary Main. Argentina is a multi-faceted nation; there are pockets of Argentina where Spanish isn't even spoken. There are some pockets where German is the main language, for example.


 * At the point when I included this correspondence with Noam Chomsky, I was new to Wikipedia and didn't understand that such things do not belong on talk pages. When I learned this, I stopped inserting such things. I refrain from removing this entry from the talk page because I have since learned that it is also against Wikipedia policy to remove things from the talk page. Noam Chomsky is known to respond to any question sent to him. He has claimed to spend as much as 8 hours per day responding to emails. By sharing this post of his on this talk page, I was simply attempting to share information with others whom I assumed would be interested.


 * In good faith,


 * Andrew Parodi 11:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Tortures with Peronist flavor

 * "En 1953 se denuncia, por boca del diputado Nudelman, la aplicación de la picana. El testimonio de Juan Ovidio Zavala, obtenido una vez derrocado Perón, es clarificador: “La energía eléctrica pasa por dentro de uno. Mil alfileres de fuego se clavan en la cabeza, en el corazón, en el estómago, en la boca, en todas partes. Producen dolor, angustia, deseos de morir...Unos quieren gritar. Pero no pueden permitirse ese alivio. Los labios están cerrados con esparadrapos. A eso se llama “poner la tapa” en la jerga de los torturadores.” Y éstos pasan a tener nombre y apellido, son reconocidos por las víctimas, y aún por la población toda, como los expertos verdugos del gobierno. Son ellos el comisario Lombilla, quien iniciara su carrera con Leopoldo Lugones (h), el ayudante Amoresano y los hermanos Cardozo." From Benitez, Marcelo Manuel. Rush translation to be revised, preferable by somebody who has no personal experience of such treatments or their perpetrators: In 1953 deputy Nudelman denounces applications of the electric prod. The testimony of Juan Ovidio Zavala, obtained after Perón had been overthrown, [expands Nudelman's statement]: "The electric energy flows through one's [body]. Thousand firy pins are stuck in the head, in the heart, in the stomach, in the mouth, in every [bodily] parts. They cause pain, anxiety, death wishes... Some [people] wish to shout. But they can't allow themselves such relief. The[ir] lips are closed with rugs. That is called, in the torturer's jargon "to put the lid." And these [torturers] have name and surname. They are recognized by the victims, and even by all the population at large, as the  government executioners. They are police chief Lombilla, who begun his career with Leopoldo Lugones, Jr, the assistant Amoresano and the brothers Cardozo.


 * Nudelman, Santiago I.: El regimen totalitario: la antidemocracia en accion, la educacion antiargentina, la era del terror, las torturas, los presos politicos, los negociados y el enriquecimiento ilicito, en defensa de la libertad de prensa, el fraude electoral. Buenos Aires, 1960. SUMMARY: Chiefly draft resolutions and declarations presented by Nudelman as a member of the Camara de Diputados of the Argentine Republic during the Peron administration. SUBJECTS: Argentina - Politics and government - 1943-1955. DESCRIPTION: 767p. 20 cm. Rush translation to be revised: The totalitarian regime: anti-democracy in accion, anti-argentine education, terror era, tortures, political prisoners, [corrupt business deals] and illicit enrichment, defense of freedom of the press, electoral fraud.
 * Jclerman 20:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think we all know that torture has always been used in Argentine politics, and Peron added to it.


 * "Peron had been elected President twice in clean elections, and his regimes were, at least formally, democratic. Both he and Evita, however, closed the door to any dialogue with the opposition and ruled Argentina with a heavy hand. The censorship of that period and the jailing and occasional torture of political adversaries led to Peron's being labeled a tyrant. However, after the atrocities committed by the military dictatorships that succeeded him, particularly the one from 1976 to 1983, the use of that label now seems empty and almost pathetic." -- BY TOMAS ELOY MARTINEZ

-- Andrew Parodi 07:12, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * One corpse and/or one tortured are enough. The quotation appears to imply a wholesale of human dignity, hence it lies in the borderline of the obscene because it has no redeeming value. In fact it shows disrespect for the victims. The dead can't contribute to these encyclopedic articles and the survivors are still scared to do it. See . Please read these testimonies and reflect on them. Why do they refer to nudity and why are they anonymous?  17 December 2005.


 * The paragraph doesn't imply a wholesale of humanity. It implies perspective. It does not condone what Peron did. It does, however, say that what others did before and after Peron was far worse than what Peron himself did. Peron had political torture. The military dictatorships murdered and disappeared tens of thousands of people. It doesn't take a scholar in Argentine history to understand which is worse. As to why some remain anonymous and why there was nudity involved, well, situations vary case by case. Some have not remained anonymous. And nudity seems to be a standard means of humiliation during torture. Look at the situation with Abu Ghraib. -- Andrew Parodi 03:52, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

"...there was no inequality in health care among citizens..."
Can somebody clarify the meaning of this statement and provide a source for it? Jclerman 02:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The statement is found in the book "Evita: The Real Life of Eva Peron" by Nicholas Fraser and Marysa Navarro, on page 131: "... of policy, it did function better than many more rational and more frugal institutions. For the first time, there was no inequality in Argentine health care. Allegations of waste are difficult to substantiate if a high proportion of whatever the money is spent on is actually ..." Amazon.com has a feature where you can now search within books. You can go to the listing on Amazon.com and search out to make sure that the statement is there -- Andrew Parodi 07:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

"Considered" the most powerful woman in government?
Someone edited in the word "considered" into this statement, and the phrase "one of the":


 * During her life Evita was considered the most powerful woman in Argentina, and she remains as one of the most powerful women in the history of her nation and the entire South American continent.

I'm not interested in getting in an argument over this, but to my knowledge this isn't true. To my knowledge, Evita was without a question the most powerful woman in the government during her time as first lady (1946-1952), which isn't an outrageous statement when you remember the timeframe and remember that hardly any women were even involved in politics at the time. And to my knowledge, she remains the most powerful woman in South American history.

I'm not interested in getting an argument about this, but if there are other women who were more powerful than Evita during her lifetime, or who have since become more powerful than she was during her life, I'd like to learn who they were. Until otherwise noted, I'm going to edit it back. I don't think this is a controversial statement at all. Even anti-Peronists often acknowledge how powerful she was -- noting that her power was one of the things that angered them because, by their view, she shouldn't have been so powerful because she wasn't an elected official and therefore her power was "illegitimate." -- Andrew Parodi 07:22, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Addendum: The statement that Evita was the most powerful woman in the country during her life is not a pro-Peronist or anti-Peronist statement, because it has been used by both sides (to illustrate different points). Of all the things that have been argued about Evita, this is perhaps the one thing about her that I have never read was argued. In fact, the book that the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical is based on was the book "The Woman with the Whip" by Mary Main (published under the pseudonym "Maria Flores" for fear of retaliation by the Peronist government). As you can see, the cover of the 1952 edition of the book described Evita as the "dangerous woman who controlled the Argentine" . Usually, her power is exaggerated to say that she was more powerful and popular than her husband, which is not true. (This is a mistake often made by people who were not Argentine.) This is what the page read before I began my work on it, and I took that statement out. -- Andrew Parodi 07:54, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Argentine means silver or silvery in the Webster dictionary. The word you are trying to use is Argentinean, which means people from Argentina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Foolscape (talk • contribs)

The very word "Argentina" refers to the silver that was found in the nation. The nation itself is therefore named after silver. "Argentum" is the Latin word for silver. Ever hear of Rio de la Plata? "Plata" is the Spanish word for silver. Would you prefer that we not use the term "Argentina" as it refers to something that was not really in great abundance in Argentina?

There are countless examples of people using the term "Argentine" instead of "Argentinian." It's largely a personal call. For myself, I prefer to the term "Argentine" over "Argentinian." I think it sounds better. (I may add that I have never seen the spelling you suggest, "Argentinean.") Please stop wasting Talk Page space with your meaningless attacks on me. Thank you. Andrew Parodi 02:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * See also: Origin and history of the name of Argentina

Section about allegations of Nazi and Fascist sympathizing
I took the liberty of creating a section of the page that addresses the allegations that Eva Peron was a Nazi and Fascist sympathizer. I believe this is an important issue because most people who know about Evita know her because of the musical by Andrew Lloyd Webber, and I have read that his portrayal of Evita became even more negative for the New York debut for fear that if it was not negative then people would perceive him as glamorizing an anti-Semitic woman. In addition to this, I noticed that long before I became involved in editing this article, someone else on this talk page mentioned that they wanted to see some reference to this topic on the main page.

I'm not sure if I put the section in the best place possible for the page, and I'm not sure if my layout of this section is the best. There are others here that can clean it up if they would prefer. At the very least, I got the section going, and I'll be interested to see what others add. I think this is in an important topic and I'm interested in learning more about it. -- Andrew Parodi 16:23, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Please offer any help you can
I hope that others will help where they can with improving this page. She is a major icon and, unfortunately, much of what is available about her on the Internet is not the helpful, aside from the two or three useful biographies you can order on Amazon, etc.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that if anyone here sees a way to clean this article up and improve it, I sure hope they will lend their expertise. I think that it would be wonderful if this page could be really good and therefore provide other people with some more accurate information about her. -- Andrew Parodi 14:43, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you to whoever corrected that Isabel was Peron's third and not second wife. For some reason, I always forget about Aurelia Tizón. I suppose because she didn't go into politics. So little is known about her. She's a tragic figure. -- Andrew Parodi 11:49, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Minor detail amendment
The article claims that Eva was alredy married to Juan Peron when he was arrested (later freed by the massive rally of the descamisados).

Actually Eva and Juan did not marry until after his release and just before his election as president. In the essay "Los obreros y yo" written by Eva herself, she tells of the rally and refers to herself as unmarried. She and Juan were married on October 21, 1945 while Juan was freed on October 17, 1945.

Again, just a minor detail.


 * Thanks for adding this. And thank you to everyone else who has been adding to this article. -- Andrew Parodi 18:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

New picture of Eva Peron bust
Someone uploaded an interesting picture of a bust of Eva Peron. They added it to the top of the page, along the introductory paragraphs. I took the liberty of moving it further down the page. It is an interesting picture, but I think it is too grainy and not exactly the kind of picture for the top of the page; and I think the two pictures there made the top of the page too "busy" anyway. -- Andrew Parodi 08:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

May be it is not a perfect picture, but it is a picture wich depicts her face close to reality, not like that Time cartoon-like picture. Barcex 19:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Time Magazine is instantly recognizable to most US citizens, therefore I figure a picture of Evita on the cover of Time magazine is more appropriate for the top of this page. It gives people an instant understanding of how important she was in her time. As I note, she's the only first lady in Latin American history to get on the cover of the US Time magazine. -- Andrew Parodi 08:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Addendum to most of the above

 * See testimonies that relate to most of the topics discussed above. 17 December 2005.
 * See imagination relating to this article. 19 Decenber 2005.


 * As to whether Peron was a dictator and/or fascist, there is no absolute definition of "fascism." And where I note that he was not fascist and not a dictator, I back those statements up with reference to scholars' sources. The reader is free to search out the works of those scholars and then make their own conclusions. If you like, you can insert your argument that he was a fascist and a dictator, but please do so with backup sources. But it is generally understood now that pretty much the only people who consider Peronism to have been fascism and a dictatorship are the anti-Peronists. Peronists, of course, do not consider Peronism to be fascism, and most historians now agree that it was not fascism or a dictatorship. He won three popular votes, and most of policies were enacted with support of the majority of the citizenry. -- Andrew Parodi 09:59, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

"From 1955 until 1971, the military dictatorship of Argentina"
Another incorrect fact: revise this interval. Jclerman Jclerman 14:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


 * If you know the correct date, please revise it yourself. Thank you. What I meant to emphasize is that Eva and Juan Peron and Peronism were banned during this period, often by military dictatorships. But I probably could've worded it better. You probably know more about that era of Argentine history than me, so please revise the statement as you see fit. -- Andrew Parodi 09:54, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * You are the one that claims to base your writing on scholars. Check them about this statement, then. How can we trust that the other sections of the article dealing with less public-record events have been better verified? --69.9.26.177 18:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't claimed that this particularly edit, which I made early on in my participation in this article, was sourced by a scholar. It was written by memory and was not sourced. At the point during which I made that statement I did no yet know much about citation on Wikipedia. I made the statement as a brief transitional phrase to connect the period during which Peron was exiled from Argentina and his return to the presidency in the mid-1970s.

You can trust various other edits I have made because they are sourced. Just about every book I have cited in this article is available on Amazon.com. Amazon.com now has a "search inside the book" feature. You can therefore go to Amazon.com and search for various statements within the various books and see that the statements are indeed there. Where I have cited various articles (such as the Time magazine article by Tomas Eloy Martinez), the given article is linked to this Wikipedia article. You can go to the link and read the given article. Thank you. Andrew Parodi 06:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

corpse abuses
watched a documentary and eva peron's sister stated on seeing the embalmed body about liquid staining  on the corpse's feet - which could either be embalming or seminal(?) fluid -- tali 16/01/05


 * From what I've read, that's the least of what happened to her body. I've read that sexual acts were performed on the body, and that someone took a hammer to the face (smashing her cheek bone in), someone cut one of her breasts, and I believe that after the body's return to Argentina one of the fingers was removed by Argentine officials so as to verify that it was the actual corpse and not one of the several copies that had been made. If you care to insert this into the article, feel free. A little too gross for me to want to deal with, though. -- Andrew Parodi 10:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * There used to be a picture accessible on Google Images, which was in black and white, showing her face. Her nose also looked as if it had been crushed...Pretty disgusting... Michael 23:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Replacing the accented "O"
Someone went through the entire page and took the accents off of the "O" in Perón. Geez. I wish I had that kind of time. Anyway, I reverted the text. -- Andrew Parodi 11:09, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

"First ladies" link
There's a link at the bottom of the page that is called "First Ladies," but in reality it is a link to an article about "infamous women" portrayed on Off-off Broadway:

http://www.thevillager.com/villager_42/infamouswomen.html

Would anyone mind if I removed this link? The article is not really about Eva Peron the historical woman, but plays about various women -- and there are only about one or two references to Eva Peron in the article. It doesn't seem that "notable" of an article to link to this page. --- Andrew Parodi 08:59, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I vote to leave the link, that is, not to remove. It's about first ladies, or summit ladies spouses of famous men. Evas and others. Famous or infamous lies in the mind of the beholder, in this case of the person who chose the name of the link and short subtitle. My vote is to leave the link as it is. BTW, there are three explicit references to Eva Perón and one of the plays contains "long and vivid soliloquies, revelations of character taken directly from research sources". Jclerman 09:07, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe it should be incorporated into the section about "Eva Peron as popular culture icon". It would seem that links at the bottom of the page should be to articles specifically about Eva Peron, not articles that merely mention her in the context of a play about her -- along with several other women. Also, I think the link on the page needs to be renamed. I don't think the name "First Ladies" is descriptive enough. -- Andrew Parodi 10:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Juan was not arrested in the musical Evita
In the section Relationship with Juan Perón:

''Eva has often been credited with organizing the rally of thousands that freed Juan Perón from prison on October 17, 1945. This version of events was popularized in the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical "Evita".''

This does happen in the movie, but as far as I know it does not in either the London or the Broadway Productions. In "A New Argentina" (the last number of Act I) Juan explains his worries

...

wolud be presidents are all about

I don't say they mean harm

but they'd each give an arm to see us six feet underground

... ''

after this section, in the movie, Eva and Juan are shown returning to their room, she tries to convince him not to flee. But when they get there, he is arrested.

The musical, instead, goes staight on to "A new Argentina..."

I've made a minor change, it now reads,

''Eva has often been credited with organizing the rally of thousands that freed Juan Perón from prison on October 17, 1945. This version of events was popularized in the movie of Andrew Lloyd Webbers musical "Evita".''

It would be great if somebody would like to double check this and maybe reword it. thanks.
 * I think that's right...I've seen the movie, and he is arrested. They once showed a selection from the musical on a recent show, "Broadway's Lost Treasures", where they played a video segment of the original Broadway cast during a performance (Patti Lupone, Bob Gunton, and Many Patinkin).  The selection was "A New Argentina", and Peron was not arrested in that. Michael 23:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I have performed in "Evita" once before, and seen another group perform it, not to mention I used to have the libretto, and I don't recall anything regarding a Peron arrest appearing in it at all. --RobDawg