Talk:Evacuation of East Prussia/Archive 2

Walter, Elizabeth B. Barefoot in the Rubble ?
The author was born in Romania and imprisoned in Yugoslavia, no connection to East Prussia.Xx234 (talk) 11:30, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Propaganda ... reflected the will of the political authorities in the Soviet Union right up to Stalin.
The statement is obvious. Whose will could have the propaganda reflected?Xx234 (talk) 12:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Try and source it. Try and source that what happened in East Prussia happened under Stalin's orders. Of course it did, but it is hard to find a source that will say so. Gunbirddriver (talk) 19:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Was the Holocaust ordered by Hitler? As far as I know no such document exists.
 * Some crimes were punished, I don't know if there existed any logic of the punishments.
 * Stalin was able to limit the crimes, but he didn't.Xx234 (talk) 07:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not understand what point you are trying to make here. "Was the Holocaust ordered by Hitler?" Certainly, and if this article was about the Holocaust then the editors involved would be obliged to attempt to cite the assertion. This article is about the evacuation of East Prussia and what happened during the course of those events. Though it is obvious that the events occurred as a result of Stalin's intention, we are still obligated to place a  tag if we cannot source the statement. If you believe you can source the statement than by all means provide the missing supporting citation.
 * A number of editors have just spent the last four months discussing this issue, starting here. We recently arrived at a tenuous consensus on the wording of the section "Crimes". It may be helpful to review the discussion in the talk page above to see where the discussion has gone. The discussion is primarily over how we as editors write a truthful article that is supported independent of our own opinions, no matter how well founded those opinions are. As editors we are admonished to avoid what is termed "Original Research". Gunbirddriver (talk) 09:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have just added some text in a collapse box above called "The Storm of War by Andrew Roberts: Red Army and rape" in it is a sentence that covers your concern and can be cited as a reliable secondary source if needed:


 * The paragraph goes on with quotes of some of what Stalin said on the issue -- PBS (talk) 09:18, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There is an article Rape during the occupation of Germany (I have linked it as see also) and a long discussion. Wouldn't it be the best to discuss problems in one place or to inform about the discussion?Xx234 (talk) 10:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The Evacuation of East Prussia and the Occupation of Germany are different events, though they both pertain to the last phase of the Second World War and the destruction of Nazi Germany. The discussion on a given talk page should be directed upon the article the talk page supports.Gunbirddriver (talk) 11:25, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The both subjects have obviously a common part. If you don't like separate them.Xx234 (talk) 12:57, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * They are separate articles, so they are separated.Gunbirddriver (talk) 19:43, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This article should be about the Evacuation of East Prussia. However the description of other subjects (Crimes, Aftermath, Germany's territorial losses after World War II map) are of comparable size as the text related to the subject. So nothing is separated. Either the name is corrected or the article.Xx234 (talk) 07:26, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The subheadings are objectionable? The map used?  I am sorry to say I do not follow you. You could always edit the page and see if other editors agree with your changes. I did find this map available: File:Attack of the Red Army 1-4 1945.jpg. Best of luck. Gunbirddriver (talk) 09:35, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The article has several issues - the name, the lead, geography, the ethnic and social/political description of the population, Nazi crimes. The article should be rewritten, which is above my poor language knowledge and I may be also biased.Xx234 (talk) 08:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

My summary - non-neutral
The article starts with a POV definition, ignores Nazi social structure (see Organization of the Third Reich - there existed a whole spectrum between civilians and army) and crimes. Summarizing - non-neutral.Xx234 (talk) 12:51, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Geography
What is East Prussia? The map File:East prussia weimar and 3rd reich.jpg shows one version (of 1,2,3), I'm not sure which one and this should be explained.Xx234 (talk) 08:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Weimar Germany Province of East Prussia - Neutral
 * 2) EP+Memel - German POV
 * 3) EP+Memel+occupied Ciechanów region - Nazi POV
 * 4) Operation Hannibal area - a much bigger area than EP, which included Free City of Danzig and small part of West Prussia. Xx234 (talk) 08:16, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

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Population evacuated
Note well that not all those who were evacuated were "ethnic Germans", foriegn workers and prisoners were included in the figures in Schieder of those evacuated. Also the population base used by the West Germans in the 1958 analysis included men in the military. The population shifts that occured during the war are not taken into account in the 1958 German calculations. Germans were evacuated to East Prussia during the war due to air raids and some left East Prussia to work in central Germany. This is a complicated picture, the 1950's dubious West German figures are regurgitated by sources in the English language that do not take into account these population shifts. The recent research by Hahn & Hahn presents a more realistic picture. I need to review this article and clean up the statistics re.those evacuated.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:15, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

I cleaned up the leade to clarify the stats: 1-West German stats include Klaipėda region 134,000 civilians. 2-The math is simple Schieder says 2.653 million there in 1944, 2.0 million evacualed and 600,000 remained. West German study puts dead at 20-25,000. 2-Article and leade should cover only evacuation up until April/May 1945. To drag events after that date will only confuse it with the expulsion after the war had ended. This should clarify the issue--Woogie10w (talk) 18:26, 22 January 2018 (UTC)