Talk:Eve Online/Archive 4

Escrow is player invented
A recent editor removed the scentence stating that Escrow is player invented, I have re-added it, the reference that follows the scentence contains the following text which I believe supports the inclusion of that information: "but the fact is that the EVE community invented the use of the Escrow system for selling and exchanging items" -- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 20:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The escrow system as it is in eve was not player invented, escrow is a common way to transfer goods and there are many ways to do it(and many ways it was done in eve).
 * Escrow is as simple as a neutral party holding on to money until a goods or service is performed or transferred, so saying "escrow" was invented by players is wrong(or misleading) in two points, #1 the system as it is in game was created by the developers and #2 escrow in one form or the other is in use in every single mmo, making it especially notable in eve is misleading. So basically, neither Escrow, nor the Escrow system was conceived or invented by Eve players. Just IMO of course --89.100.1.161 18:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You are correct in the view that the concept of Escrow existed long before MMOs existed, however when EVE was first released there was no such thing as Escrow, only player created courier missions. Some players wishing to transfer goods between eachother without having to be in the same station at the same time started setting courier missions with a colateral at the value of the contents of the item they wished to transfer, by including this item in the courier mission they could set it for other players. The person who wished to collect it would simply accept the mission thus paying the colateral to the system, break the package to access the item, then once the courier mission expired the player who set the mission would receive the colateral from the courier mission system.
 * That is true(Remember also when when putting the name of the person the courier mission was for, unless you clicked search anyone could accept it? :p), however as I remember it, that system was generally used for zero sum transactions between players where either the courier mission cost was almost nil, but limited to one player, or cost was high and the creator would pay back the person who paid the collateral. The person who paid the collateral was also both the "escrow agent" and the "recipient" so technically it wasnt escrow for a few reasons ;)
 * Whilst original courier missions were akin to escrow(although the escrow agent did not hold on to money, just delivered the package) how it was actually used was not.


 * Thus the Escrow feature within EVE was invented by the players as they used the functionality of one game mechanic to emulate a feature that was missing. This explains why Escrow is in the missions tab in station services. Whilst I do understand your reasoning for removing the citation, I would suggest that the scentence should remain as it is one of the few features of eve that was was player invented that is actually citable against an offical source (unlike Jetcan mining and Alliances). -- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 19:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * However the "Escrow feature" codified by the designers bears little resemblance either to original courier escrow, or real life escrow. The Escrow feature in EVE is just a universal(galaxial?) marketplace, it bears little resemblance to actual escrow.
 * Anyway, how about I remove "and based upon the concept of third party escrow," and leave the rest in? --89.100.1.161 21:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

EVE is Not a Space Opera
I have removed the Category "Space Opera" from the article, wikipedias definition of a space opera is:

"Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic adventure, exotic settings, and larger-than-life characters."


 * EVE does not emphasize romantic adventure.
 * As with most MMOs characters can not be larger than life or "heros" because everyone would be.

-- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 09:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Additionally the majority of events in EVE are neither scripted, written or predetermined. --Battlehamster 12:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with this point, although I wont change anything; Eve is ALL about larger than life charachters; people like SirMolle, XirtamVOTF, Selene or Digital Communist are 'household' names with reputations far exceeding their actual activities.

Eve is marketted with 'romantic adventure' in mind, and the scale of the game just goes to reinforce this, as does player determination of the story line.

Lack of a script is both debatable (major storyline changes ARE scripted) and irrelevent (not neccessary for a game to qualify as 'space opera'.

Alex Bartho 15:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Quafe
I have requested a citation on Quafe being a repackaged Egils Orka, the only information I can find is this and this which mention that CCP are partnering with Egils. There may be something useful on this or this, however Icelandic was not covered at GCSE. -- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 18:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see a citation as well. The first link you gave seems to have the most useful info (for someone who doesn't speak Icelandic), but it doesn't indicate where it got the information. A Google search of the egils site for 'Quafe' turned up nothing. --Battlehamster 01:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sadly, I think it's safe to say there's no official citation about this what so ever. I've been looking for it since I first saw the Quafe wiki page some weeks ago and it said it tasted somewhat like Sprite(?). Anyways, browsed the whole Egils.is and there's nothing about any Quafe,, but yeah many icelanders claim it tastes just like Orka, including those rabbling in Icelandic in the links above. Personally I've never tasted Quafe, although I've seen some empty bottles, both of Orka and Quafe and they looked 100% the same, also witnessed numerous people confirm it in person it's Orka. I got all that, but sorry I can't bring you any official source about it... But I did do one thing, something that I think nobody has actually done, I've asked Egils via e-mail about this, quite bluntly. The e-mail is a "Open Letter", If I'll get a positive response I guess that fully qualifies as a valid source. Untill then... --Gussi 23:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don´t think Egils ever confirmed that it was Orka. But Orka has a very distinct taste and most of the icelanders that where at the first fanfest( me included ) noticed that Quafe was just relabeled Orka, even had the same blue/purple bottles. -hafhal


 * It is likely that Quafe is in fact relabelled Orka but I would guess neiter CCP nor Egils would want to admit that officially. However it is definately not related to Sprite since Egils bottles Pepsi in Iceland and Sprite is owned by Coca Cola. --Sindri 10:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ties between politics and economy

 * "The economy is closely tied with the (also player driven) political aspect of the game. Player corporations (the EVE equivalent of guilds) rise and fall as they struggle for market dominance as well as territorial control. One instance worth noting is when an independent industrial corporation was attacked by a military alliance to prevent it from delivering a prototype capital ship to their enemies, a demonstration of the level of interaction between the in-game economy and politics."

This paragraph is currlently marked as "Citation Needed", it is going to be very hard to find a citation for this particular area of EVE. I think anyone who plays EVE can understand how it works and I am sure TRUST, G, Iron, ASCN and BOB all have first hand experence of how politics affect economics in EVE. Due to the difficulty in actually finding some reputable material I would suggest that it is removed from the article. -- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 10:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There was a citation (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=317227, which someone replaced with citation needed), but it was a forum thread, and a very confusing forum thread. Without knowing what's going on already, only a few posts make much sense. Such as #1, #55, #57, #58, #59, and #60. Unfortunately they're mostly players giving informed opinions, but not exactly clearly reputable or verifiable. This event seems like a major one -- I've seen several EVE videos refer to it's 'dramatic impact' on the game and alliances in general. But I've never seen a better link. I suspect a lot of the politics will be like this. Lots of discussion, diplomacy, posturing, things happening in games, with talk about it (but without a full description of it) happening on the forums. Unfortunately, unlike in real life, there's no news service to provide a reputable summary of political events in EVE. Well, there's the EVE player news, but that seems to cover very little and often leave you with more questions than you started with.
 * It's a bit of a shame to remove it, as it was a blurb about this event that as a new player really shined some light and interest on the economic and political play in EVE. But I do agree it's not really fit for the article at this point. It would be nice to find something suitable for demonstration the significance of the intertwined economy and politically scene. Or at least just the politics. --Battlehamster 13:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed it would be nice to have a paragraph about the links between politics, wars, alliances and the economy. I would love to be able to put more information about how the economy in EVE mirrors the patterns of the real world economy. In my oppinon the economy of EVE sets it far apart from so many other MMOGs, it seems a shame to have to cut down a section that I already feel does not do the game justice - unfortunatle that would not be the goal of Wikipedia. -- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 15:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed it would be nice to have a paragraph about the links between politics, wars, alliances and the economy. I would love to be able to put more information about how the economy in EVE mirrors the patterns of the real world economy. In my oppinon the economy of EVE sets it far apart from so many other MMOGs, it seems a shame to have to cut down a section that I already feel does not do the game justice - unfortunatle that would not be the goal of Wikipedia. -- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 15:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Peak Concurrent User (PCU) updates
At this time I'd ask people not to update the PCU count under the Milestones section unless it follows a citeable announcement, either on a CCP page, or another reputable gaming news page (like the current one using Allakhazam news). I know we've seen the PCU go higher than the March 13th record. I see it regularly. But without a reputable citation, it's original research, which is verboten on wikipedia. Thanks. --Battlehamster 19:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, this is a must for this article to avoid the "flip-flopping" of PCU records we have had over the past few years. Perhaps it would be a good idea to list somewhere on this page some of the sites that are considered reputable so that new authors have a reference (f.ex. MMORPG.com, Allakahazam, etc) -- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 10:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Trade Wars, Space Merchant, Merchant Empires?
Why no mention of those games, EVE is obviously an extension of these games also the work done by Justin Stedman (Carnaugh) from Advanced Powers Merchant Empires (AMPE) seems to have influenced Eve Online significantly.
 * Probably because EVE Hasn't been compared to the games you mentioned anywhere before, Wikipedia is not a place to present your views or oppinions, it is a place to effectivly colate information from other sources in an encyclopedic style. Of couse if you know of somewhere on the web or in industry press where the comparisons have been made let us know on here and someone can work it into an article. Or even better be bold and edit it in yourself. -- Richard Slater ( Talk to me! ) 19:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The developers at some point mentioned that Elite was one of their main influences. --Battlehamster 21:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't expressing an opinion as such, would be like saying its an opinion to suggest the New Testament was somehow related to the First Testament. Did the same people write it?  No, but its an extension.  Anyways my curiosity is how Eve came to be.  And I've heard dozens of players from both ME and Eve talk about how related they were, and ME was a game based on Trade Wars (which in itself was influenced by other games like Yankee Trader taking us back to the 1970s).  It would just be interesting to hear about the influences of the developers on Eve's creation (though I do wonder if there is a *reason* they don't mention Merchant Empires :).  Its a little disturbing that you think because something is 'written' somewhere that it becomes official somehow.  I know what the Wikipedia intends/tries to be, but do you?  Point is, I saw an area about "Eve Online" that had no information about it (ie its history and development and its influences stated or not) that I thought would have been interesting knowledge.  Do I know all the facts?  No, and I don't claim to. --199.126.255.194 19:23, September 6, 2006
 * Hi 199.126.255.194. You asked why we don't make comparisons with games that "EVE is obviously an extension of". Responses indicated we haven't done this because we don't have any reputable verifiable sources that have drawn such links or have made such comparisons. Thus our response is not a disagreement with or argument against the idea, but rather, an explanation of why you don't see it put forth in the article. Without a reputable source, anything we put in would be speculation, or at best original research and thus not fit for Wikipedia (even if it were true!).  If you come across any reputable sources of information on the topic, feel free to link them here on the talk page, and we'll see how they can be worked into the article. Best regards. P.S., please sign your comments by entering -- followed by four tildes in a row. Thanks. --Battlehamster 04:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Merger

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no support for the merge due to a lack of significant non-redundant content in race-specific pages and withdrawal of the proposal by the originator. --Battlehamster 01:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Amarr and Minmatar pages into EVE Online
I placed merge tags on some pages that need to be integrated into the article. They will give this article some more meat and also help to consolidate the information into a few places that we can manage. (Amarr,Minmatar) What I would propose is we cut down the storyoline section and a section for each of the races that would hve a little paragraph about their history. Comments? --Xander the Potato Vanquisher 13:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Changed my mind. I don't think we need those pages all together. The information that is presented in our storyline section is canonical and pretty good. The information in the other articles comes from places unknown. --Xander the Potato Vanquisher 14:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that we don't need to merge those articles. Really the only thing in them that we don't have is the details of the individual bloodlines, but I think that's beyond the scope that need be covered by the article. If you're interested enough in the bloodlines, you're probably interested enough to visit the EVE background pages. --Battlehamster 20:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merged Quafe
It was suggested that the article on Quafe be merged with this article. I agreed since it didn't really have enough information about it to merit having it's own article. I managed to screw up the formatting somewhere with the images - I'll try to fix this, but since I've never worked with images on wikipedia I'd be much obliged if someone could help.-- ▫Bad▫ harlick♠ 11:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)